Why 2.5 Gbps WAN port but just 1 Gbps LAN ports? I would think almost nobody in the world has internet connection faster than 1 Gbps, while a lot more people have a NAS (or high-end desktop/workstation) with 10 GbE. IEEE 802.3bz (NBASE-T and MGBASE-T) really needs to be adapted by more vendors. Prices are starting to come down but it's still a major problem. High power consumption is no longer much of a problem with newer chipsets like Aquantia.
Apparently the 1Gbps LAN ports can be link-aggregated too, and the LAG port can be used as uplink to the modem (many DOCSIS 3.1 modems have LAG ports to connect to the router). The NBASE-T port can then be used as part of the LAN.
In my experience, LAG works best to increase throughput when there are multiple concurrent users. It does not guarantee a speed-up for a single user for many protocols. For iSCSI it works quite well, but Samba multichannel still had a long way to go before becoming stable last time I checked. I would much rather have multigigabit ports than using LAG over 1 GbE ports. Plus of coarse LAG means more cable clutter (granted, typically only short distances anyway).
Not sure if this helps a lot. LAG is very useful in server workloads with lots of clients using hundreds or throusands of TCP sessions.
And for me it's not really about the Internet bandwidth, where I don't expect economical Gbit any time soon. For me it's about using the 10Gbit capable NBase-T core of my home lab as well as possible w/o those cables. And there it's mostly about pushing down those peak loads e.g. when you want to copy a VM or bigger project to your WLAN laptop before going to work, whilst you're having breakfast at the big table in the living room, where you don't keep cables around (kids!).
That is a big smart hybrid RAID talking to an NVMe laptop quite capable of pushing 10Gbit Ethernet speeds and I want to get as close as WiFi 6 air speed allows, so I don't have to get the 2.5Gbit USB Ethernet dongle and the extension cable.
Got the €20 WiFi 6 upgrade for the laptops, now I just want to use it properly...
"LAG is very useful in server workloads with lots of clients using hundreds or throusands of TCP sessions."
That's irrelevant. The point that matters for home is that a SINGLE TCP or UDP session uses a single ethernet line. So you can't connect your work computer to your NAS and copy files over twice as fast :-( But what you CAN do is have two computers connected to the NAS, each copying over files at 1G, and they won't slow each other down. Point is --- you don't need hundreds of sessions to see value. But you do need more than one...
The extent to which this is useful to you depends on your home setup. If you have, eg, his and hers computers, and you're both frequently interacting with a NAS, you will then see some value. But if you tend to work at different times, or each computer tends to hit the NAS only infrequently, so there's very rarely overlap in the network loads, then ...
LAG is not necessarily useless at home. But it's definitely not something I'd pay for. If the HW includes it, fine; but if you want me to pay for it feature, it damn well better be something that's actually GENERICALLY useful, like 2.5G.
A bit of a clarification. The Orbi WiFi 6 Router comes with 5 ports (1 x 2.5 Gbps WAN and 4 x 1 Gbps LAN). There are several Cable Modems (eg. CM1150v, CM1200) that have LAG capabilities on the LAN side, and we're trying to provide deployment flexibility to get to multi-gigabit speeds on the Orbi.
Just because there aren't common 1 gbps+ residential internet speeds today, doesn't mean they won't exist before the AX standard is replaced. Historically, each of the recent wireless generations has lasted around 7 years (2005 n, 2012 ac, 2019 ax). So there might use for the 2.5 gbps WAN port in the future before WiFi 6 becomes obsolete.
For that price I'd expect more units, and for Netgear to consider a long term investment being longer than just 3-5 years. Past experiences with Netgear were poor, while I'm sure they're better these days I'm hoping there will be more reasonably priced alternatives from other brands.
Is WIFI6 even available outside of routers? Is the firmware stable? Seems like this is more marketing crap to sell expensive $300 routers that are unstable and do not perform as advertised.
The new Snapdragons (855) have it. And there is a Broadcom chip. (Meaning that I would expect the new iPhones to have it, either through that BC chip, or maybe Apple finally has the entire BT/WiFi stack on their own chip, a beefed up W4?)
Well, they don't 'have' it really, they just come with the logic parts inside the SoC, while vendors are still free to shave a cent or two of the final sales price by mounting not the matching CNVi module, but something cheaper.
Case in point my Whiskey Lake, which has AC9000 series WiFi 5 embedded in the SoC, was sold with a 3165 M.2, quite a serious downgrade at 433Mbs raw data rate.
So I had the chance to upgrade that with an Intel 9560 CNVio (€9) or 9260 PCIe (€11) module, or I could get vPro capabilities for either with another €6 on top.
But penny pinching on those €2 for the CNVio module, I would have tied the card to that notebook, where in fact it only lived a few weeks, until the WiFi 6 AX200 PCIe module became available for €11 as well. I haven't even seen the CNVio variant for AX200 yet, but it sure wouldn't deliver WiFi 6 if it worked at all on a SoC with WiFi 5 capabilities, but in any case this embedded WLAN chipset stuff only makes sense to Apple: Anyone with a bit of sense should stay away.
BTW: The 9260 immediately moved to the next best notebook in the family, that doesn't have any WiFi on the SoC, where it's doing much better than being an immediate CNVi throwaway.
"On the cost aspect, Netgear noted that the premium Wi-Fi 6 Nighthawk routers priced around the $300 - $400 range have been selling relatively well. Given that a mesh system is essentially the hardware for at least two wireless routers in one kit, the pricing is justified."
I don't know that that's valid logic. I clearly can't speak for other people, but my primary interest in the AX Nighthawks is that they're currently the only way to get a small home system with at least some (limited, but present) >1Gbps switching ethernet switching. By buying an AX nighthawk you get at least 2*1G aggregation, and a 2.5/5G port; and you may be able to convert that into some value in your home network (eg connect the NAS to the fast port, and whatever other machine is appropriate to the 2*1G ports).
Point is -- the kind of people who buy for those ETHERNET features are mostly not the kind of people who buy mesh networking, because they have alternative ways to get the coverage they want over the entire house...
I have a 2400 sq ft home, and have no problems reaching Netgear's 7000 router, even when outside. But I do wonder if I can reach greater distances and faster throughput, and try to decide between a router with bigger antennas or go mesh. I rather have bigger antenna so the radius is bigger. I'm concerned that 2 mesh devices only make the signal shape oval. So to get a bigger circular radius, I'll need multiple mesh devices, which increases cost.
Without 10Gb at the router switch, this is a no go for the price. I have 10Gb on my Synology and 10Gb on my desktop. (10Gb switch) But if I want to share over wifi 6, which apparently can saturate 1Gb, then this becomes the bottleneck again.
so ether the diagram used in this thread is incorrect or the tech specs on netgears own web site are incorrect
the same argument can also be cast as with the ethernet here , why have the wifi backhaul the same speed as the client 5 gig , the backhaul should have been full 4804mbps
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AdditionalPylons - Friday, September 6, 2019 - link
Why 2.5 Gbps WAN port but just 1 Gbps LAN ports? I would think almost nobody in the world has internet connection faster than 1 Gbps, while a lot more people have a NAS (or high-end desktop/workstation) with 10 GbE. IEEE 802.3bz (NBASE-T and MGBASE-T) really needs to be adapted by more vendors. Prices are starting to come down but it's still a major problem.High power consumption is no longer much of a problem with newer chipsets like Aquantia.
abufrejoval - Friday, September 6, 2019 - link
+1ganeshts - Friday, September 6, 2019 - link
Apparently the 1Gbps LAN ports can be link-aggregated too, and the LAG port can be used as uplink to the modem (many DOCSIS 3.1 modems have LAG ports to connect to the router). The NBASE-T port can then be used as part of the LAN.AdditionalPylons - Friday, September 6, 2019 - link
In my experience, LAG works best to increase throughput when there are multiple concurrent users. It does not guarantee a speed-up for a single user for many protocols. For iSCSI it works quite well, but Samba multichannel still had a long way to go before becoming stable last time I checked.I would much rather have multigigabit ports than using LAG over 1 GbE ports.
Plus of coarse LAG means more cable clutter (granted, typically only short distances anyway).
abufrejoval - Friday, September 6, 2019 - link
Not sure if this helps a lot. LAG is very useful in server workloads with lots of clients using hundreds or throusands of TCP sessions.And for me it's not really about the Internet bandwidth, where I don't expect economical Gbit any time soon. For me it's about using the 10Gbit capable NBase-T core of my home lab as well as possible w/o those cables. And there it's mostly about pushing down those peak loads e.g. when you want to copy a VM or bigger project to your WLAN laptop before going to work, whilst you're having breakfast at the big table in the living room, where you don't keep cables around (kids!).
That is a big smart hybrid RAID talking to an NVMe laptop quite capable of pushing 10Gbit Ethernet speeds and I want to get as close as WiFi 6 air speed allows, so I don't have to get the 2.5Gbit USB Ethernet dongle and the extension cable.
Got the €20 WiFi 6 upgrade for the laptops, now I just want to use it properly...
name99 - Friday, September 6, 2019 - link
"LAG is very useful in server workloads with lots of clients using hundreds or throusands of TCP sessions."That's irrelevant. The point that matters for home is that a SINGLE TCP or UDP session uses a single ethernet line. So you can't connect your work computer to your NAS and copy files over twice as fast :-(
But what you CAN do is have two computers connected to the NAS, each copying over files at 1G, and they won't slow each other down.
Point is --- you don't need hundreds of sessions to see value. But you do need more than one...
The extent to which this is useful to you depends on your home setup. If you have, eg, his and hers computers, and you're both frequently interacting with a NAS, you will then see some value. But if you tend to work at different times, or each computer tends to hit the NAS only infrequently, so there's very rarely overlap in the network loads, then ...
LAG is not necessarily useless at home. But it's definitely not something I'd pay for. If the HW includes it, fine; but if you want me to pay for it feature, it damn well better be something that's actually GENERICALLY useful, like 2.5G.
abufrejoval - Sunday, September 8, 2019 - link
pretty much what I said, too...Amit_NTGR - Monday, September 9, 2019 - link
A bit of a clarification. The Orbi WiFi 6 Router comes with 5 ports (1 x 2.5 Gbps WAN and 4 x 1 Gbps LAN). There are several Cable Modems (eg. CM1150v, CM1200) that have LAG capabilities on the LAN side, and we're trying to provide deployment flexibility to get to multi-gigabit speeds on the Orbi.Jedi2155 - Friday, September 13, 2019 - link
Just because there aren't common 1 gbps+ residential internet speeds today, doesn't mean they won't exist before the AX standard is replaced. Historically, each of the recent wireless generations has lasted around 7 years (2005 n, 2012 ac, 2019 ax). So there might use for the 2.5 gbps WAN port in the future before WiFi 6 becomes obsolete.brantron - Friday, September 6, 2019 - link
"Negear"Really? Do you even look at the site after articles go through alleged editors?
csroc - Friday, September 6, 2019 - link
For that price I'd expect more units, and for Netgear to consider a long term investment being longer than just 3-5 years. Past experiences with Netgear were poor, while I'm sure they're better these days I'm hoping there will be more reasonably priced alternatives from other brands.Supercell99 - Friday, September 6, 2019 - link
Is WIFI6 even available outside of routers? Is the firmware stable? Seems like this is more marketing crap to sell expensive $300 routers that are unstable and do not perform as advertised.name99 - Friday, September 6, 2019 - link
The new Snapdragons (855) have it. And there is a Broadcom chip. (Meaning that I would expect the new iPhones to have it, either through that BC chip, or maybe Apple finally has the entire BT/WiFi stack on their own chip, a beefed up W4?)ganeshts - Friday, September 6, 2019 - link
All the new Ice Lake laptops come with Wi-Fi 6.You can also get Wi-Fi 6 cards on Amazon if you have a system with an appropriate M.2 slot - Eg. : https://www.amazon.com/Killer-Wi-Fi-AX1650-Module-...
abufrejoval - Sunday, September 8, 2019 - link
Well, they don't 'have' it really, they just come with the logic parts inside the SoC, while vendors are still free to shave a cent or two of the final sales price by mounting not the matching CNVi module, but something cheaper.Case in point my Whiskey Lake, which has AC9000 series WiFi 5 embedded in the SoC, was sold with a 3165 M.2, quite a serious downgrade at 433Mbs raw data rate.
So I had the chance to upgrade that with an Intel 9560 CNVio (€9) or 9260 PCIe (€11) module, or I could get vPro capabilities for either with another €6 on top.
But penny pinching on those €2 for the CNVio module, I would have tied the card to that notebook, where in fact it only lived a few weeks, until the WiFi 6 AX200 PCIe module became available for €11 as well. I haven't even seen the CNVio variant for AX200 yet, but it sure wouldn't deliver WiFi 6 if it worked at all on a SoC with WiFi 5 capabilities, but in any case this embedded WLAN chipset stuff only makes sense to Apple: Anyone with a bit of sense should stay away.
BTW: The 9260 immediately moved to the next best notebook in the family, that doesn't have any WiFi on the SoC, where it's doing much better than being an immediate CNVi throwaway.
name99 - Friday, September 6, 2019 - link
"On the cost aspect, Netgear noted that the premium Wi-Fi 6 Nighthawk routers priced around the $300 - $400 range have been selling relatively well. Given that a mesh system is essentially the hardware for at least two wireless routers in one kit, the pricing is justified."I don't know that that's valid logic. I clearly can't speak for other people, but my primary interest in the AX Nighthawks is that they're currently the only way to get a small home system with at least some (limited, but present) >1Gbps switching ethernet switching. By buying an AX nighthawk you get at least 2*1G aggregation, and a 2.5/5G port; and you may be able to convert that into some value in your home network (eg connect the NAS to the fast port, and whatever other machine is appropriate to the 2*1G ports).
Point is -- the kind of people who buy for those ETHERNET features are mostly not the kind of people who buy mesh networking, because they have alternative ways to get the coverage they want over the entire house...
snakyjake - Friday, September 6, 2019 - link
I have a 2400 sq ft home, and have no problems reaching Netgear's 7000 router, even when outside. But I do wonder if I can reach greater distances and faster throughput, and try to decide between a router with bigger antennas or go mesh. I rather have bigger antenna so the radius is bigger. I'm concerned that 2 mesh devices only make the signal shape oval. So to get a bigger circular radius, I'll need multiple mesh devices, which increases cost.I haven't totally bought into mesh as the answer.
Dug - Thursday, September 12, 2019 - link
Without 10Gb at the router switch, this is a no go for the price.I have 10Gb on my Synology and 10Gb on my desktop. (10Gb switch)
But if I want to share over wifi 6, which apparently can saturate 1Gb, then this becomes the bottleneck again.
delphin460 - Saturday, September 21, 2019 - link
did anyone notice the elephant in the room hereit isnt using the full AX standard for ether its backhaul or client 5 gig
see specs
2.4GHz (1200Mbps†) + 5GHz (2400Mbps†) for WiFi devices to connect to the Internet
5GHz (2400Mbps†) dedicated WiFi link for faster data connections between Orbi Router and Orbi Satellite
the full ax standard is 4804mbps at 160mhz
it looks like they are only using 80mhz
strange indeed
delphin460 - Saturday, September 21, 2019 - link
so ether the diagram used in this thread is incorrect or the tech specs on netgears own web site are incorrectthe same argument can also be cast as with the ethernet here , why have the wifi backhaul the same speed as the client 5 gig , the backhaul should have been full 4804mbps
martinstone - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
https://www.google.com