I'm hoping this is where the resolution race ends. Further increases in resolution have minimal impacts on visual fidelity while massively increasing the video bandwidth needed.
Assuming better scalers are integrated into TVs or even native integer scaling support, 8K can support integer scaled 240p (18x18), 480p (9x9), 720p (6x6), 1080p (4x4), 1440p (3x3), 2160/4K (2x2) content, and could (with a good integer resolution scaler) therefore function "similarly" to CRTs of the past with good support for multiple resolutions with minimal (if any) loss in quality. 4K TVs could not support an integer scale for 480p or 1440p content while keeping the screen filled.
After this, I hope TV manufacturers stay on 8k, but focus on features like better video scalers, better refresh rates, better pixel response times, better input lag, better contrast ratio, wider color gamuts, etc, as these are all going to have larger effects on picture quality over just increasing resolution yet again.
There should not and will not be an end. Depending on distance and size of the display, higher resolutions will be still be useful (especially for applications like VR). However, it's definitely true that we don't need anything higher than 8K for a TV. Even 4K is a bit more than needed for many people since they maintain a pretty fair distance from the display.
It's not just CGI. I looked up Avenger's Endgame technical specifications and bizarrely I found out that while it was entirely shot with the (large format) Alexa 65 IMAX at 6.5K it was mastered at a mere 2K, not 4K. Why on Earth would they do that? Unless the list below is incomplete that means there is no 4K version of this film? https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4154796/technical
Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 270 (Most) of the HDR content is no different than most other YUV videodata, just YUV420P10.
If your script outputs something like YUV420 P10, with 2020 non-constant YUV matrix, limited range / tv range, 2020 color primaries, smpte2084 transfer characteristics, I would go with something like this:
Code: vspipe -y <input.vpy> - | ffmpeg -i - -vf zscale=min=bt2020nc:m=bt2020nc:rin=tv:r=tv,pin=bt2020:p=bt2020:tin=smpte2084:t=smpte2084 Followed by any other filters and other ffmpeg parameters you might need. Piping the data from Vapoursynth to ffmpeg isn't the problem,but you need to tell ffmpeg what the characteristics of the videostream are, that's where the big zscale filter comes in. It's just basically a no-op, converting from input to output without change, but in doing that the videostream gets tagged with the correct parameters so ffmpeg (and other filters / codecs) know the characteristics of the stream.
Now, what you want to do with that HDR stream in ffmepg is up to you and I don't know much use-cases besides trying to tonemap it to SDR... but good luck.
They could also just redo the digital intermediate at 4K once the master was ready for cinema. They could have started work on re-rendering and exporting a higher quality version at 4K, ready for digital release? Seems unlikely - and to be honest I saw this in 4K at our local cinema and the CGI was definitely 4K - details you wouldn't be able to get in 2K.
Interesting that neither LG or Sony are members. I doubt it'll make much of a difference since those specs are pretty much the starting point for even the crappiest displays, but LG is kinda a big deal in the panel industry.
It is minimal specs. It's safe to say that these TVs will also support H.264 and VP9.
AV1 is a big deal. Too bad it's almost nowhere in 2019. Hopefully we will see it in all phones, laptops, and GPUs soon. Navi didn't have it which was a bit of a surprise for me.
Or maybe it does have it, they're just not announcing it yet due to the lawsuit... It's possible it missed the boat, though, given AMD's issues with competing in GPU.
While neither LG or Sony are members, the things required all look to be focused on the North American Market. While I appreciate that, as a resident of North America, one thing that struck me was the 24p, 30p, and 60p are as noted above, North American focused. The UK and most of Europe, I believe, all default with a 50 hz. setting, so I assume that's 25p, 50p, and so on? I can also imagine these TVs/displays being more "wall screens" which show smaller images, in "windows" such as a 4K display here, a 1080P display there, and so on. I could also see that as a field for higher resolution, due to, I'm assuming the math works like this, 4x4 showing of 4K display "images/videos each in windows. That could be useful for more commercial applications like security cameras or even broadcast production, since for only one "video wall", it's showing 16 "true 4K" videos.
It would be simpler to just dispense with set frame rates and make it variable up to a maximum.
As for images in windows, a.k.a. picture-in-picture, I've long wondered why they don't realize that LCD displays, unlike the old CRT's, are a frame buffer device, and it should be possible to economize on bandwidth by being able to write to specific spots on the screen only instead of refreshing the whole frame. Regular TV's wouldn't use this necessarily, but huge advertising wall displays with largely static content could.
"Ok this is just ridiculous - Display Port 2.0" consortium and this us based 8k association etc cant even re-produce on time the OFFICIAL "full UHD2 8k spec" NHK/bbc ENGINEERING have been telling the whole electronics world for 6+years this is "the use case" they designed,engineered and will be using for the official 24 July 2020 Olympics end user/consumer public broadcasts,IPTV consumer streaming and relatated content go forword... . and again incase people didnt realise ,years ago when bbc/nhk r&d engineering where doing the research ,bbc r&d engineering tested upto the real integer 350fps/Hz for the best sports and other high motion IP streaming, nhk made the case for going even higher for longevity for the new UHD2 industry standard, no excuses for being late to the party or diluting the official spec into phases for pr cost cutting or rebranding for the real industry standard UHD2 end to end producer to end consumer IP workflow...
And the best 8K TV on the planet right now are either being produced for the Japanese domestic market (SONY, PANASONIC, SHARP), or in the American market, the Sony Z9G. Sharp 8K TVs are selling on the used market in Japan for $2,500, down from $10,000 when they were first introduced by Sharp in 2017. I'll take that any day over the garbage Samsung or Vizio puts out; they always cut corners in regards to quality control.
see SEL 8.3" 8K Crystalline Oxide IGZO 120hz ready from Charbax`s channel ,he`s an aquired taste,and rather cringe worthy [someone should try and help him improve perhaps] but he DOES cover all the things and people that matters to real end users the world over...
"IGZO inventor, Dr. Shunpei Yamazaki, President of Semiconductor Energy Laboratory (SEL)
Charbax,Published on Aug 25, 2017
Dr. Shunpei Yamazaki discovered the Indium–gallium–zinc oxide (IGZO) crystalline structure material for transistors to have a higher mobility than amorphous silicon transistors, and an extremely low off-state current. C-axis aligned crystalline (CAAC) IGZO enables aggressive down-scaling, high reliability, and process simplification of transistors in displays and LSI devices. Listed on over 4,000 US utility patents, Dr. Yamazaki was named in the Guinness Book of World Records as holding the most patents in the world; hailed the most prolific inventor in history"
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JoeyJoJo123 - Wednesday, September 4, 2019 - link
I'm hoping this is where the resolution race ends. Further increases in resolution have minimal impacts on visual fidelity while massively increasing the video bandwidth needed.Assuming better scalers are integrated into TVs or even native integer scaling support, 8K can support integer scaled 240p (18x18), 480p (9x9), 720p (6x6), 1080p (4x4), 1440p (3x3), 2160/4K (2x2) content, and could (with a good integer resolution scaler) therefore function "similarly" to CRTs of the past with good support for multiple resolutions with minimal (if any) loss in quality. 4K TVs could not support an integer scale for 480p or 1440p content while keeping the screen filled.
After this, I hope TV manufacturers stay on 8k, but focus on features like better video scalers, better refresh rates, better pixel response times, better input lag, better contrast ratio, wider color gamuts, etc, as these are all going to have larger effects on picture quality over just increasing resolution yet again.
UltraWide - Wednesday, September 4, 2019 - link
It won't ever end, progress can't be stopped. ;)GC2:CS - Wednesday, September 4, 2019 - link
Do not worry. We might soon reach a point where eco-activists will be protesting the power, e waste and CO2 cost of this.aenews - Wednesday, September 4, 2019 - link
There should not and will not be an end. Depending on distance and size of the display, higher resolutions will be still be useful (especially for applications like VR). However, it's definitely true that we don't need anything higher than 8K for a TV. Even 4K is a bit more than needed for many people since they maintain a pretty fair distance from the display.nandnandnand - Wednesday, September 4, 2019 - link
By my estimation (based on pixel count, not necessarily aspect ratio), VR will go to "16K" and 360-degree cameras will go to "32K".TVs? 720p often looks just fine to me, and it's hard to imagine 8K being insufficient. Maybe projectors will go beyond that.
SirMaster - Thursday, September 5, 2019 - link
Well for VR we need much more resolution than even 8K though.drgigolo - Wednesday, September 4, 2019 - link
One can only hope that this will force Hollywood's hand to actually render the CGI @4K and not 2K.Santoval - Wednesday, September 4, 2019 - link
It's not just CGI. I looked up Avenger's Endgame technical specifications and bizarrely I found out that while it was entirely shot with the (large format) Alexa 65 IMAX at 6.5K it was mastered at a mere 2K, not 4K. Why on Earth would they do that? Unless the list below is incomplete that means there is no 4K version of this film?https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4154796/technical
quiksilvr - Wednesday, September 4, 2019 - link
Because the rendering and time constraints are ridiculous. People think that a frame can be rendered in a secondBMNify - Thursday, September 5, 2019 - link
making bad assumptions helps noonea UHD2 8K FRAME CAN BE RENDERED in a second with a current top end single cpu
theres no excuse for the pro`s...
https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1831137#p...
piping HDR Rec.2020 from Vapoursynth to ffmpeg via vspipe
20th January 2018, 10:50 #2 | Link
dipje
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 270
(Most) of the HDR content is no different than most other YUV videodata, just YUV420P10.
If your script outputs something like YUV420 P10, with 2020 non-constant YUV matrix, limited range / tv range, 2020 color primaries, smpte2084 transfer characteristics, I would go with something like this:
Code:
vspipe -y <input.vpy> - | ffmpeg -i - -vf zscale=min=bt2020nc:m=bt2020nc:rin=tv:r=tv,pin=bt2020:p=bt2020:tin=smpte2084:t=smpte2084
Followed by any other filters and other ffmpeg parameters you might need.
Piping the data from Vapoursynth to ffmpeg isn't the problem,but you need to tell ffmpeg what the characteristics of the videostream are, that's where the big zscale filter comes in.
It's just basically a no-op, converting from input to output without change, but in doing that the videostream gets tagged with the correct parameters so ffmpeg (and other filters / codecs) know the characteristics of the stream.
Now, what you want to do with that HDR stream in ffmepg is up to you and I don't know much use-cases besides trying to tonemap it to SDR... but good luck.
Lord of the Bored - Thursday, September 5, 2019 - link
I think he meant all the CG animation and compositing that makes up most of that frame, not the final display of that frame.scottrichardson - Wednesday, September 4, 2019 - link
They could also just redo the digital intermediate at 4K once the master was ready for cinema. They could have started work on re-rendering and exporting a higher quality version at 4K, ready for digital release? Seems unlikely - and to be honest I saw this in 4K at our local cinema and the CGI was definitely 4K - details you wouldn't be able to get in 2K.rabidkevin - Wednesday, September 4, 2019 - link
And here I am with my 1080p TV still LolKakti - Wednesday, September 4, 2019 - link
Interesting that neither LG or Sony are members. I doubt it'll make much of a difference since those specs are pretty much the starting point for even the crappiest displays, but LG is kinda a big deal in the panel industry.mooninite - Wednesday, September 4, 2019 - link
HEVC still has its claws in too many places. Long live AV1...nandnandnand - Wednesday, September 4, 2019 - link
It is minimal specs. It's safe to say that these TVs will also support H.264 and VP9.AV1 is a big deal. Too bad it's almost nowhere in 2019. Hopefully we will see it in all phones, laptops, and GPUs soon. Navi didn't have it which was a bit of a surprise for me.
Also, there is a threat of a patent lawsuit against AOMedia/AV1: https://www.iam-media.com/market-developments/sisv...
The scum might need to be eliminated before we see widespread adoption.
GreenReaper - Monday, September 9, 2019 - link
Or maybe it does have it, they're just not announcing it yet due to the lawsuit...It's possible it missed the boat, though, given AMD's issues with competing in GPU.
tuxRoller - Wednesday, September 4, 2019 - link
Requiring hevc at this point?Bold move.
Kendog52404 - Wednesday, September 4, 2019 - link
While neither LG or Sony are members, the things required all look to be focused on the North American Market. While I appreciate that, as a resident of North America, one thing that struck me was the 24p, 30p, and 60p are as noted above, North American focused. The UK and most of Europe, I believe, all default with a 50 hz. setting, so I assume that's 25p, 50p, and so on? I can also imagine these TVs/displays being more "wall screens" which show smaller images, in "windows" such as a 4K display here, a 1080P display there, and so on. I could also see that as a field for higher resolution, due to, I'm assuming the math works like this, 4x4 showing of 4K display "images/videos each in windows. That could be useful for more commercial applications like security cameras or even broadcast production, since for only one "video wall", it's showing 16 "true 4K" videos.seerak - Thursday, September 5, 2019 - link
It would be simpler to just dispense with set frame rates and make it variable up to a maximum.As for images in windows, a.k.a. picture-in-picture, I've long wondered why they don't realize that LCD displays, unlike the old CRT's, are a frame buffer device, and it should be possible to economize on bandwidth by being able to write to specific spots on the screen only instead of refreshing the whole frame. Regular TV's wouldn't use this necessarily, but huge advertising wall displays with largely static content could.
BMNify - Thursday, September 5, 2019 - link
"Ok this is just ridiculous - Display Port 2.0" consortium and this us based 8k association etc cant even re-produce on time the OFFICIAL "full UHD2 8k spec" NHK/bbc ENGINEERING have been telling the whole electronics world for 6+years this is "the use case" they designed,engineered and will be using for the official 24 July 2020 Olympics end user/consumer public broadcasts,IPTV consumer streaming and relatated content go forword....
and again incase people didnt realise ,years ago when bbc/nhk r&d engineering where doing the research ,bbc r&d engineering tested upto the real integer 350fps/Hz for the best sports and other high motion IP streaming, nhk made the case for going even higher for longevity for the new UHD2 industry standard, no excuses for being late to the party or diluting the official spec into phases for pr cost cutting or rebranding for the real industry standard UHD2 end to end producer to end consumer IP workflow...
NuclearArmament - Wednesday, September 4, 2019 - link
And the best 8K TV on the planet right now are either being produced for the Japanese domestic market (SONY, PANASONIC, SHARP), or in the American market, the Sony Z9G. Sharp 8K TVs are selling on the used market in Japan for $2,500, down from $10,000 when they were first introduced by Sharp in 2017. I'll take that any day over the garbage Samsung or Vizio puts out; they always cut corners in regards to quality control.BMNify - Thursday, September 5, 2019 - link
see SEL 8.3" 8K Crystalline Oxide IGZO 120hz readyfrom Charbax`s channel ,he`s an aquired taste,and rather cringe worthy [someone should try and help him improve perhaps] but he DOES cover all the things and people that matters to real end users the world over...
"IGZO inventor, Dr. Shunpei Yamazaki, President of Semiconductor Energy Laboratory (SEL)
Charbax,Published on Aug 25, 2017
Dr. Shunpei Yamazaki discovered the Indium–gallium–zinc oxide (IGZO) crystalline structure material for transistors to have a higher mobility than amorphous silicon transistors, and an extremely low off-state current. C-axis aligned crystalline (CAAC) IGZO enables aggressive down-scaling, high reliability, and process simplification of transistors in displays and LSI devices. Listed on over 4,000 US utility patents, Dr. Yamazaki was named in the Guinness Book of World Records as holding the most patents in the world; hailed the most prolific inventor in history"
Lord of the Bored - Thursday, September 5, 2019 - link
"In a nutshell, the 8KA wants an 8K TV or display to meet the following minimums:Feature a resolution of 7680×4320 pixels"
Ummm, can we get 8k somewhere in the specs for our 8k TVs, please?
GreenReaper - Monday, September 9, 2019 - link
People should never have accepted 3840px as "4K".It's going to be even more fun for 16K, let alone 32K (or 31K?).
ruzveh - Thursday, September 5, 2019 - link
It is very disappointing to see that why are they not supporting minimum 60hz frame rates or even have 120hz speed