shame they not upped the speed of "good ol sata" to allow regular SSD to not be as bottlenecked.
instead everyone and their gramma is chasing "got to get nvme even faster even if it costs much more and higher fail rate"
sata like usb like 4 pin molex are "old but good" somewhere along the line AMD or someone else has to step in and go "wait a minute" and up sata from "sata 6+ speed" to actually beyond sata 6mb (to actually allow sata to go beyond the 550 odd mb speed "cap" specifically if they allowed bi-directional i.e 550x2 (read and write same time, like raid 0 + 1 without actually doing RAID
Except that's not SATA, it's PCIe over the worst designed connector since... I don't suppose anyone else here has experience with the memory card design on the IBM RS/6000 J30? You couldn't upgrade the memory without breaking the motherboard. They had to redesign the whole thing.
I mean SAS exists if you want higher performance with the niceties you list. SATA is used for the same reason it has always been used: it is cheap. Spec development of SATA has been very conservative for over a decade because the industry collectively agreed they were happy with SATA being what it is for all time. NVMe involves more expensive hardware for its higher performance. It is likely similar performance SATA would be Much more expensive than its NVMe dual. Nothing I have seen has implied NVMe over PCIe is in any way less stable than SATA. Its a better solution for SSD communications by every metric. If you want a $10 DRAMless SSD or to support a legacy system, get a SATA drive. Otherwise, get an NVMe.
For complicated reasons on how the spec functions using any USB type connection would not be desirable. Also one cable is not really an advantage especial when it's not locking. For anything more than a few watts it's often simpler to have a separate cable for power anyway. Also USB-C cables are fairly hard to produce relative to other cables and are designed for frequent plug cycles. Whereas devices like these are generally rated for maybe a few hundred plug cycles while only maybe seeing a few total in the devices life time. As such the device can get away with using more friction to lock it down so fans and hard drives spinning in the chassis or there nearby racks won't nock a cable loose everyone and a while
You seem to say that "USB-C is the answer" in all of these threads. Except that the U.2/SFF-8639 is much faster since it is PCIe based. It also uses a connector designed for internal case use.
USB 3.2 is 20 Gbps peak. USB 4.0 is 40 Gbps peak. A PCIe 4.0 4-lane U.2 port would be over 60 Gbps.
The SATA driver stack itself was a potential bottleneck for faster SSDs; changing it would require so many changes that it would effectively be a new product anyway so they went clean slate and created NVME.
It's remotely possible that SATA will get a speed bump to 1.2g to match top end SAS; but if it happens it will be to support faster HDDs for NAS uses. The SATA SSD is an engineering dead end that mostly still exists for legacy support reasons.
4 pin molex suck. Always a pain to connect. I dread anything in 2019 requiring it. Adding that one wire to my modular power supply to run a case fan controller really pisses me off.
SATA has overhead because it was designed to support spinning rust going back a decade. SSD don't need SATA. Making SSD work on SATA was a bit of a hack. Ultimately the SATA controller is then connected to PCIe anyways. Entry level NVMe are essentially the same cost as SATA with higher performance.
Because literally there is no reason to. Everything is moving to direct-board-mounting. cables in general are going away for anything but legacy SATA HDD/SSD/ODD and/or power.
Why? What will the usb controller connect to? PCIe. So why go SSD -> <something> -> PCIe just go SSD -> PCIe. Nothing will be better than NVMe. It is a low latency low overhead way of passing storage commands over PCIe directly.
Because internal storage is already moving to PCIe-based solutions. The U.2 interface is basically a cabled version of the M.2 connector. It currently supports PCIe 3x2 and 3x4 and can use the NVMe storage protocol. For slower devices, you have SATA Express that can support PCIe 3x2 using cheaper cables. For everything else, you have SATA, SAS, or M.2.
Hopefully AMD B550 motherboards will be here soon enough so that those of us who don't need a X570 motherboard can take advantage of these drives. Can't wait.
My Z370 ATX motherboard allows up to 3 m.2 NVME ssd, drives, i also have connected 4 sata ssd connected. I have several pro applications, works, video courses, a lot of music, some old films, ... and backups. To those who wish Sata drives and connections to get rid of, yes lets do it but only WHEN we can directly install 4 or 6 ssd drives on a motherboard. I already have a couplevof Samsung 970 pro 1TB ready.
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Dragonstongue - Friday, August 9, 2019 - link
shame they not upped the speed of "good ol sata" to allow regular SSD to not be as bottlenecked.instead everyone and their gramma is chasing "got to get nvme even faster even if it costs much more and higher fail rate"
sata like usb like 4 pin molex are "old but good" somewhere along the line AMD or someone else has to step in and go "wait a minute" and up sata from "sata 6+ speed" to actually beyond sata 6mb (to actually allow sata to go beyond the 550 odd mb speed "cap" specifically if they allowed bi-directional i.e 550x2 (read and write same time, like raid 0 + 1 without actually doing RAID
MajGenRelativity - Friday, August 9, 2019 - link
They upped the speed of good old SATA. It's called SATA Express. It didn't do so well in the market.PixyMisa - Friday, August 9, 2019 - link
Except that's not SATA, it's PCIe over the worst designed connector since... I don't suppose anyone else here has experience with the memory card design on the IBM RS/6000 J30? You couldn't upgrade the memory without breaking the motherboard. They had to redesign the whole thing.willis936 - Saturday, August 10, 2019 - link
What is the issue with the SATAe cable? It seems to be competently designed to me.willis936 - Friday, August 9, 2019 - link
I mean SAS exists if you want higher performance with the niceties you list. SATA is used for the same reason it has always been used: it is cheap. Spec development of SATA has been very conservative for over a decade because the industry collectively agreed they were happy with SATA being what it is for all time. NVMe involves more expensive hardware for its higher performance. It is likely similar performance SATA would be Much more expensive than its NVMe dual. Nothing I have seen has implied NVMe over PCIe is in any way less stable than SATA. Its a better solution for SSD communications by every metric. If you want a $10 DRAMless SSD or to support a legacy system, get a SATA drive. Otherwise, get an NVMe.PixyMisa - Friday, August 9, 2019 - link
USB-C is the answer. Up to 20Gbps now, with power and signal over one cable.Skeptical123 - Friday, August 9, 2019 - link
For complicated reasons on how the spec functions using any USB type connection would not be desirable. Also one cable is not really an advantage especial when it's not locking. For anything more than a few watts it's often simpler to have a separate cable for power anyway. Also USB-C cables are fairly hard to produce relative to other cables and are designed for frequent plug cycles. Whereas devices like these are generally rated for maybe a few hundred plug cycles while only maybe seeing a few total in the devices life time. As such the device can get away with using more friction to lock it down so fans and hard drives spinning in the chassis or there nearby racks won't nock a cable loose everyone and a whileSantoval - Saturday, August 10, 2019 - link
Soon 40 Gbps as well (the USB 4 variant, which is basically a toned down TB 3).Lucky Stripes 99 - Sunday, August 11, 2019 - link
You seem to say that "USB-C is the answer" in all of these threads. Except that the U.2/SFF-8639 is much faster since it is PCIe based. It also uses a connector designed for internal case use.USB 3.2 is 20 Gbps peak. USB 4.0 is 40 Gbps peak. A PCIe 4.0 4-lane U.2 port would be over 60 Gbps.
DanNeely - Friday, August 9, 2019 - link
The SATA driver stack itself was a potential bottleneck for faster SSDs; changing it would require so many changes that it would effectively be a new product anyway so they went clean slate and created NVME.It's remotely possible that SATA will get a speed bump to 1.2g to match top end SAS; but if it happens it will be to support faster HDDs for NAS uses. The SATA SSD is an engineering dead end that mostly still exists for legacy support reasons.
hojnikb - Friday, August 9, 2019 - link
whats there to increase? sata is pretty much topped out as an interface with highend ssds (like 860pro).svan1971 - Friday, August 9, 2019 - link
4 pin molex suck. Always a pain to connect. I dread anything in 2019 requiring it. Adding that one wire to my modular power supply to run a case fan controller really pisses me off.TheUnhandledException - Saturday, August 10, 2019 - link
SATA has overhead because it was designed to support spinning rust going back a decade. SSD don't need SATA. Making SSD work on SATA was a bit of a hack. Ultimately the SATA controller is then connected to PCIe anyways. Entry level NVMe are essentially the same cost as SATA with higher performance.MDD1963 - Friday, August 9, 2019 - link
So, hypothetically twice as fast as the 970 EVO Plus, and, it will only shave one quarter second from WIndows boot times or game level load times...:)Peter_H - Friday, August 9, 2019 - link
why not develop, a internal usb 4.0 standard, to replace sata for HDD and SSD ?James5mith - Friday, August 9, 2019 - link
Because literally there is no reason to. Everything is moving to direct-board-mounting. cables in general are going away for anything but legacy SATA HDD/SSD/ODD and/or power.TheUnhandledException - Saturday, August 10, 2019 - link
Why? What will the usb controller connect to? PCIe. So why go SSD -> <something> -> PCIe just go SSD -> PCIe. Nothing will be better than NVMe. It is a low latency low overhead way of passing storage commands over PCIe directly.Lucky Stripes 99 - Sunday, August 11, 2019 - link
Because internal storage is already moving to PCIe-based solutions. The U.2 interface is basically a cabled version of the M.2 connector. It currently supports PCIe 3x2 and 3x4 and can use the NVMe storage protocol. For slower devices, you have SATA Express that can support PCIe 3x2 using cheaper cables. For everything else, you have SATA, SAS, or M.2.p1esk - Friday, August 9, 2019 - link
What is the main benefit of NVMe 1.4?willis936 - Friday, August 9, 2019 - link
https://www.anandtech.com/show/14543/nvme-14-speci...romrunning - Friday, August 9, 2019 - link
I wish mfg's would name their models so that higher numbers mean performance. (sigh)It's annoying that you will have to remember the Phison "E19" controller has a lower top-end than the "E18" controller.
olafgarten - Saturday, August 10, 2019 - link
But it's not just E19, it's E19T, with the 'T' meaning trash.Lucky Stripes 99 - Sunday, August 11, 2019 - link
Hopefully AMD B550 motherboards will be here soon enough so that those of us who don't need a X570 motherboard can take advantage of these drives. Can't wait.Freddy the honest - Sunday, August 11, 2019 - link
My Z370 ATX motherboard allows up to 3 m.2 NVME ssd, drives, i also have connected 4 sata ssd connected. I have several pro applications, works, video courses, a lot of music, some old films, ... and backups. To those who wish Sata drives and connections to get rid of, yes lets do it but only WHEN we can directly install 4 or 6 ssd drives on a motherboard. I already have a couplevof Samsung 970 pro 1TB ready.TheUnhandledException - Sunday, August 11, 2019 - link
Do you have a 8x PCIe slot? Well that is two m.2 drives. 16x PCIe slot? that is four m.2 drives.PopinFRESH007 - Tuesday, May 12, 2020 - link
only if the PCIe slot supports bifurcationthebigegg - Tuesday, August 13, 2019 - link
Shame the E19T doesn't support a DRAM cache. Would make for some fantastic low end SSDs.