Weren't laptops with Ice Lake-U supposed to be released this summer? I believe I had heard in July, from Dell and others. Was that noise just to take the wind out of AMD's sails?
I thought it was that Ice Lake was shipping to Dell and others this summer, not that the laptops were launching now. Still needs months of validation after that.
Well, maybe not this specific model, but their Bean Canyon NUCs come with Thunderbolt3 ports as well as Core 8XXX CPUs and in some cases AMD Vega GPUs.
TDP on those is 15W and upwards, up to around 100W.
More than slightly smaller. At 117 cubic inches vs 42 the ASRock is almost 3x as large; and NUC has always been about making SFF as small as possible. If that's not your goal you can almost always get better bang for the buck elsewhere.
Agreed that “slightly” is subjective, but owning both a NUC and the A300 I think it’s an apt description. Both will mount almost unnoticed on the back of a monitor with VESA mount.
Quoting cubic inches is a difficult comparison, as only a small increase in each dimension will grow the total significantly.
Right, sor's example (which is a desktop socketed chip AND a full-power model) was a poor one for both those reasons - but there are AMD solutions that do compete well. See my reply to sor.
How many people are calculating performance per cubic inch? If someone’s looking for a PC small enough to mount to the back of a monitor, the A300 does it and provides better overall performance.
NUCs are mainly targeted at the corporate client (or at least that where you'll see them). Building and supporting a custom PC makes no sense. Of course there are countless enterprise PCs built around mITX, but they're relatively expensive as well.
And obviously: NUC is a lot smaller (both case and power supply) and a lot quieter.
I agree with you in principle, that AMD APUs offer a better value. But you need to look at the mini STX boards with embedded Ryzen. In the case of this particular dGPU-equipped NUC (paired with a 540X) a V1807B down-TDP to 35W would be a good comparison. A 12-15W V1605B would be a good comparison against an Intel solution with no dGPU.
I just checked and $985 and restricted to 8GB ram and no TB3. Just not going to cut it. Mac Mini with 6core, 4 TB3 ports, and for $100 more can add 10Gb. actually makes more sense. I get the allure of small size and low power. I'm all for it. But if you can manage the size of of something smaller than a ps4, then you open up to all kinds of possibilities that don't restrict you.
8GB of RAM is not exactly protected from expanded future needs so the fact that it can't be upgraded is reason enough to buy something else that has removable memory.
Plain silly as there are plenty of cases where 8GB is not enough but a 15W TPU (sic) is fine. There's not always a direct correlation between CPU, RAM, Storage and GPU requirements as there are many types of workloads. I've lived with a 4.5W/8GB laptop and the RAM limit would be more of an issue today than the CPU which is why I have moved to a 15W/16GB.
I can burn through 8GB and dive into swap pretty easily with a couple of fairly large spreadsheets in Windows (and have been seeing things like that happen for a good 9+ years in production). In Linux, it's even easier to oversubscribe a box with CPU non-intensive tasks and burst well outside 8GB.
Btw: While this particular model apparently has soldered RAM, Intel’s other 8th generation NUC models (Bean Canyon & co.) all have two RAM slots up to a total of 32GB.
We can only hope that soldered RAM won’t be the standard from now on.
Yup, its just this particular NUC and its soldered RAM situation that I think is the problem. Bean Canyon is a nice little platform that offers expansion and room for growth. I'd grab one of those ahead of this model for that reason alone.
Just a real shame that Intel doesn’t offer something with a little more oomph than a (relatively) anemic 15W CPU.
(WHOOPS, never mind. According to their app, they offer NUC with a TDP from 15W up to 100W!)
Gotta say though, that their offer a pretty confusing selection though.
What’s the point in offering both this NUC (with a fairly weak CPU and an AMD GPU) AS WELL as Bean Canyon that has a more powerful CPU and Intel top of the line Iris GPU?!
I don't understand what this product is, or how it relates to the Nucs we already had. Nucs have supported DDR4 for years, so why does this product use LPDDR3?
I don't understand "the catch": Why should it matter if the codec/media features of the AMD dGPU are lacking, unless the HD630 iGPU of the Whiskey Lake had be cut off the chip or disabled?
But from what little material seems available on these Kaby-Lake G type APUs, the Intel iGPU is all there and usable, not like those first 10nm chips (and NUCs).
What these are, though, is most likely Apple rejects/oversupply. These things are expensive to make, Apple custom designs using EMIB or similar to tie the dGPU to the i7 using 8 PCIe lanes, which then simply means they won't have any PCIe lanes left over for TB3.
So Intel must have made quite a batch of these and now Apple won't take more than they can sell as notebooks and Intel is selling off excess stock via NUC.
LDDR3 vs. DDR4: With the AMD dGPU running on GDDR5, memory bandwidth for pure CPU workloads shouldn't be an issue any more: That's why they have all these caches.
Soldered on memory: The cooling solution seems to cover too much area to leave space for DRAM sockets and these are Apple rejects after all. And you get 10GB effective memory for gaming, because at least your frame and texture buffers are going to be on the dGPU.
I guess in terms of gaming power they'd compete with the high EU Ice Lake 10nm designs, but actual power consumption on game workloads signifcantly higher, not that it matters that much in a NUC with a well designed fan.
I don't see this as being Apple Rejects - except in the GPU - Apple site has not product using 540X - Lowest GPU they use is 555X
Of course NUC is different group than CPU group, but the logical course of action would be Intel to come up with Whiskey Lake - G with update GPU but then again with new GPU coming internally why bother.
Keep in mind there are people that create Mac clones which this might be good platform. I really never understand why Apple did not come out with Kaby Lake G MacBook. To me sounds like a perfect Mac combination.
I think this is going to be a hard sell vs an ASRock DeskMini A300 with an R5 3400G in it.
I mean, barebones it's only $149 (with wifi)..so you're probably looking at under $500 for a 16GB build with a 256GB SSD and R5 3400G ? Not sure $772 and up makes much sense in comparison.
These days it seems Intel is confused af regarding its overall business strategy/product roadmap placement. Soldered RAM = hard pass on this outdated shyte.
THESE are not mini NUCs they are mini-PC's (normal sized NUCS) intels offerings are always too expensive but hopefully others will come in and offer them at sane prices. Altho Intel build quality and support is very good, I am led to believe . I would like one at maybe 300-350 GBp (i3 would do)
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Kevin G - Monday, July 1, 2019 - link
Kinda wish this had Thunderbolt 3.Ian Cutress - Monday, July 1, 2019 - link
Will have to wait for the Ice Lake NUCs to start appearing. Should be plenty of TB3 ports on thosetokyojerry - Monday, July 1, 2019 - link
Is an Ice Lake NUC scheduled to appear? And if so, when? I've not seen any information.patrickjp93 - Tuesday, July 2, 2019 - link
December. Laptops hit shelves at the end of this quarter.Santoval - Tuesday, July 2, 2019 - link
Weren't laptops with Ice Lake-U supposed to be released this summer? I believe I had heard in July, from Dell and others. Was that noise just to take the wind out of AMD's sails?tipoo - Tuesday, July 2, 2019 - link
I thought it was that Ice Lake was shipping to Dell and others this summer, not that the laptops were launching now. Still needs months of validation after that.V900 - Monday, July 1, 2019 - link
It kinda does.Well, maybe not this specific model, but their Bean Canyon NUCs come with Thunderbolt3 ports as well as Core 8XXX CPUs and in some cases AMD Vega GPUs.
TDP on those is 15W and upwards, up to around 100W.
Zingam - Tuesday, July 2, 2019 - link
But it has all kind of Meltdowns/Specters/Zombieloads and many cool sounding features like that!timecop1818 - Tuesday, July 2, 2019 - link
And how the fuck does that affect you, a desktop client end-user?sor - Monday, July 1, 2019 - link
I’m having trouble with why I’d buy this over something like an ASRock A300, Ryzen 3400g, 16GB RAM for ~$450.I guess preassembly helps, and the NUC is slightly smaller.
DanNeely - Monday, July 1, 2019 - link
More than slightly smaller. At 117 cubic inches vs 42 the ASRock is almost 3x as large; and NUC has always been about making SFF as small as possible. If that's not your goal you can almost always get better bang for the buck elsewhere.sor - Monday, July 1, 2019 - link
Agreed that “slightly” is subjective, but owning both a NUC and the A300 I think it’s an apt description. Both will mount almost unnoticed on the back of a monitor with VESA mount.Quoting cubic inches is a difficult comparison, as only a small increase in each dimension will grow the total significantly.
V900 - Monday, July 1, 2019 - link
Because the Ryzen combo you’re talking about doesn’t even come close to this in terms of performance pr watt or performance pr size.Alexvrb - Monday, July 1, 2019 - link
Right, sor's example (which is a desktop socketed chip AND a full-power model) was a poor one for both those reasons - but there are AMD solutions that do compete well. See my reply to sor.sor - Monday, July 1, 2019 - link
How many people are calculating performance per cubic inch? If someone’s looking for a PC small enough to mount to the back of a monitor, the A300 does it and provides better overall performance.Santoval - Tuesday, July 2, 2019 - link
Probably just performance per size. Performance per watt of the Ryzen system is almost certainly higher.notb - Monday, July 1, 2019 - link
NUCs are mainly targeted at the corporate client (or at least that where you'll see them). Building and supporting a custom PC makes no sense.Of course there are countless enterprise PCs built around mITX, but they're relatively expensive as well.
And obviously: NUC is a lot smaller (both case and power supply) and a lot quieter.
sor - Monday, July 1, 2019 - link
I conceded that if you’re looking for pre-assembly you may be willing to pay the premium.Alexvrb - Monday, July 1, 2019 - link
I agree with you in principle, that AMD APUs offer a better value. But you need to look at the mini STX boards with embedded Ryzen. In the case of this particular dGPU-equipped NUC (paired with a 540X) a V1807B down-TDP to 35W would be a good comparison. A 12-15W V1605B would be a good comparison against an Intel solution with no dGPU.Dug - Monday, July 1, 2019 - link
I just checked and $985 and restricted to 8GB ram and no TB3. Just not going to cut it. Mac Mini with 6core, 4 TB3 ports, and for $100 more can add 10Gb. actually makes more sense.I get the allure of small size and low power. I'm all for it.
But if you can manage the size of of something smaller than a ps4, then you open up to all kinds of possibilities that don't restrict you.
V900 - Monday, July 1, 2019 - link
The Mac is bigger though, and uses a lot more power than this.But yeah, unless the size and 15W TDP isn’t important, you can get a lot more hardware for your money with a Mac Mini.
Or get something cheaper/more powerful than the Mac Mini if you build something yourself.
V900 - Monday, July 1, 2019 - link
There are other 8th generation Core NUCs though that have Thunderbolt 3 (1 or 2) and can take up to 32 GB RAM in two slots.Along with i3/i5/i7 CPUs and Intel/Iris/Vega graphics.
True though, that this particular model doesn’t come out that great next to something like a Mac Mini.
PeachNCream - Monday, July 1, 2019 - link
8GB of RAM is not exactly protected from expanded future needs so the fact that it can't be upgraded is reason enough to buy something else that has removable memory.V900 - Monday, July 1, 2019 - link
8gb is going to be more than enough for a machine like this.The minuscule 15W TPU is going to be a bigger limit than “only” 8gb of memory.
ikjadoon - Monday, July 1, 2019 - link
"only" 15W TDP? Be real. These are 4C/8T CPUs without an IHS + single-core boosts to 4.6 GHz + SFF chassis.On laptops, the PL2 (max Turbo Boost power limit) is often 25 W. But, in a NUC chassis? PL2 @ 35-40 W with an infinite tau wouldn't surprise me.
16 GB isn't included on a 4C/8T CPU because Intel doesn't care about the NUC's value or market.
Further reading: https://www.anandtech.com/show/13544/why-intel-pro...
smilingcrow - Monday, July 1, 2019 - link
Plain silly as there are plenty of cases where 8GB is not enough but a 15W TPU (sic) is fine.There's not always a direct correlation between CPU, RAM, Storage and GPU requirements as there are many types of workloads.
I've lived with a 4.5W/8GB laptop and the RAM limit would be more of an issue today than the CPU which is why I have moved to a 15W/16GB.
PeachNCream - Tuesday, July 2, 2019 - link
I can burn through 8GB and dive into swap pretty easily with a couple of fairly large spreadsheets in Windows (and have been seeing things like that happen for a good 9+ years in production). In Linux, it's even easier to oversubscribe a box with CPU non-intensive tasks and burst well outside 8GB.V900 - Monday, July 1, 2019 - link
Btw: While this particular model apparently has soldered RAM, Intel’s other 8th generation NUC models (Bean Canyon & co.) all have two RAM slots up to a total of 32GB.We can only hope that soldered RAM won’t be the standard from now on.
PeachNCream - Tuesday, July 2, 2019 - link
Yup, its just this particular NUC and its soldered RAM situation that I think is the problem. Bean Canyon is a nice little platform that offers expansion and room for growth. I'd grab one of those ahead of this model for that reason alone.V900 - Monday, July 1, 2019 - link
Just a real shame that Intel doesn’t offer something with a little more oomph than a (relatively) anemic 15W CPU.(WHOOPS, never mind. According to their app, they offer NUC with a TDP from 15W up to 100W!)
Gotta say though, that their offer a pretty confusing selection though.
What’s the point in offering both this NUC (with a fairly weak CPU and an AMD GPU) AS WELL as Bean Canyon that has a more powerful CPU and Intel top of the line Iris GPU?!
JoeDuarte - Monday, July 1, 2019 - link
I don't understand what this product is, or how it relates to the Nucs we already had. Nucs have supported DDR4 for years, so why does this product use LPDDR3?abufrejoval - Monday, July 1, 2019 - link
I don't understand "the catch": Why should it matter if the codec/media features of the AMD dGPU are lacking, unless the HD630 iGPU of the Whiskey Lake had be cut off the chip or disabled?But from what little material seems available on these Kaby-Lake G type APUs, the Intel iGPU is all there and usable, not like those first 10nm chips (and NUCs).
What these are, though, is most likely Apple rejects/oversupply. These things are expensive to make, Apple custom designs using EMIB or similar to tie the dGPU to the i7 using 8 PCIe lanes, which then simply means they won't have any PCIe lanes left over for TB3.
So Intel must have made quite a batch of these and now Apple won't take more than they can sell as notebooks and Intel is selling off excess stock via NUC.
LDDR3 vs. DDR4: With the AMD dGPU running on GDDR5, memory bandwidth for pure CPU workloads shouldn't be an issue any more: That's why they have all these caches.
Soldered on memory: The cooling solution seems to cover too much area to leave space for DRAM sockets and these are Apple rejects after all. And you get 10GB effective memory for gaming, because at least your frame and texture buffers are going to be on the dGPU.
I guess in terms of gaming power they'd compete with the high EU Ice Lake 10nm designs, but actual power consumption on game workloads signifcantly higher, not that it matters that much in a NUC with a well designed fan.
patel21 - Tuesday, July 2, 2019 - link
I would also like to know which specific Apple model's rejects these chips can be of.HStewart - Tuesday, July 2, 2019 - link
I don't see this as being Apple Rejects - except in the GPU - Apple site has not product using 540X - Lowest GPU they use is 555XOf course NUC is different group than CPU group, but the logical course of action would be Intel to come up with Whiskey Lake - G with update GPU but then again with new GPU coming internally why bother.
Keep in mind there are people that create Mac clones which this might be good platform. I really never understand why Apple did not come out with Kaby Lake G MacBook. To me sounds like a perfect Mac combination.
Samus - Tuesday, July 2, 2019 - link
Anton,Do you know if these have lost Quicksync support? Do the CPU's still have an enabled GPU or is it fused off?
JKJK - Tuesday, July 2, 2019 - link
DDR3, old wifi. Wtf is thistipoo - Tuesday, July 2, 2019 - link
*LP*DDR3, once again Intel still doesn't support LPDDR4 and won't until Ice Lake.Santoval - Tuesday, July 2, 2019 - link
$772 to $1075?! They are so exorbitantly priced to the point of being risible. Intel are still trying to sell seaweed for the price of silk ribbons...Haawser - Tuesday, July 2, 2019 - link
I think this is going to be a hard sell vs an ASRock DeskMini A300 with an R5 3400G in it.I mean, barebones it's only $149 (with wifi)..so you're probably looking at under $500 for a 16GB build with a 256GB SSD and R5 3400G ? Not sure $772 and up makes much sense in comparison.
Whinstone Solutions - Wednesday, July 3, 2019 - link
best product i like it i have researched about it you can find here https://www.berlitz.com.pkurbanman2004 - Wednesday, July 3, 2019 - link
These days it seems Intel is confused af regarding its overall business strategy/product roadmap placement. Soldered RAM = hard pass on this outdated shyte.MASSAMKULABOX - Wednesday, July 3, 2019 - link
THESE are not mini NUCs they are mini-PC's (normal sized NUCS) intels offerings are always too expensive but hopefully others will come in and offer them at sane prices. Altho Intel build quality and support is very good, I am led to believe . I would like one at maybe 300-350 GBp (i3 would do)