I can tell you that the name doesn't immediately resemble Chinese. I looked it up and turns out the Chinese would be Shuguang, which makes more sense but only sounds vaguely similar.
Given the recent developments in the US vs China trade war, this is good. It might not be the very latest tech, but it's recent enough to be competitive.
Is there a major concern of trade secrets in issues with China. For example some CPU's have algorithms that should not be use in foreign countries. The problem with China, maybe more of national security issue than a trade issue and this could be a major issue in the future. This could turn into a really bad thing.
The traitors have been feeding the dragon for better part of 5 decades, ever since Nixon opened up (to?) China naively assuming they'd flock to Western values like Japan or SK did.
I think the problem start before the 70's especially with it relations with Soviet Union. In the 60's there were problems in Europe including Germany after WW2, and it came into US.
But I think the primary problem with US and China, is that China has cheap almost slave labor force and people have got use to it.
It's all about the money. Intel wanted to get into the lucrative Chinese smartphone market in 2014 so they created a JV in China. They licensed their x86 and AMD64 IP to Spreadtrum to make 64 bit smartphone chips. They were not successful at selling them but China got access to the IP nonetheless.
Seems a reasonably safe bet that these are made at TSMC, Global Foundries, or one of the Global Foundries technology partners with a design rules option similar to what they've used at GloFo (Samsung?) and that the cores are essentially copy/paste designs. I can't imagine AMD laid the cores out for someone else's process, but I believe at this point that they've done zen about both GloFo and TSMC?
AMD doesn't need a separate license, just like Intel don't need one for x64, not to mention the JV (AMD and THATIC) under which these processors are made is majority owned by AMD.
Its pretty shady that I can't license and make my own x86 processor but some company in China can with their "transparent" announcement that its just licensing of AMD processors and not just the x86 license. If that's true, it should be identical to 1st gen Ryzen, but if so why make it at all? AMD already makes semi-custom IP for Sony/MS. Seems shady.
How long do these licenses last? After 40 yrs will someone finally be able to make an x86 compatible CPU without Intel/AMD permission?!
The "x86 license" mostly is a US copyright thing. AMD and Intel share pretty much everything, this is why Intel can use AMD64 without any restriction. The JV is technically a AMD subsidiary with AMD in control of >50%. And what they are doing there is not semi-custom, but fully-custom with licensed IPs. It looks like they build in their own encryption standard stuff for example.
AMD gets fees and royalties, the US government has a lot less options to kill/control this, and China can build whatever CPUs they need.
A copyright thing? What do you mean? Maybe you mean patent...
And AMD is only a majority stakeholder. To one of the formed joint ventures, the one that owns the rights to the patents. That is to get around the licensing agreement between AMD and Intel and not because of the US government.
If the US government wanted to declare it a national security issue they could. They won't let Intel or NVIDIA give specialized chips that go into Chinese supercomputers. I am sure they could easily argue some similar thing to put an end to this arrangement if they wanted to.
AMD is the MAJORITY (51%) stakeholder in HMC, Haiguang Microelectronics Co. Ltd. They are the company that actually signs a contract with a Foundry which produces them and HMC provides the chips back to Hygon (not sure why Anandtech can't get the company name correct)... also this product can only be sold in China and not exported.
It is really AMD's way of prying CPU sales in China away from Intel (desktop & server). I would assume that the Security Processor (trusted zone) is not part of these CPU designs. 1) because that was built on ARM tech (which supposedly is not part of the IP license) and 2) doubtful that China wants that in the chip to begin with...
"To stay within the legal boundaries, HMC licenses the IP to Hygon, which designs the x86 chips and then sells the design back to HMC.
HMC then employs a foundry to fab the end product (likely China Foundries or TSMC). Confusingly, HMC then transfers the chips back to Hygon (the same company that designed them), which then sells the Dhyana processors.
And thus, AMD's licensing of the x86 IP stays within the legal boundaries."
Also worth pointing out that VIA did effectively the exact same thing a few years earlier and has a joint venture in China enabling them to produce custom x86 chips for the chinese market.
According to the Tom's Hardware article, there are different joint ventures set up to work around the terms of AMD's licensing agreement with Intel. AMD has a majority stake in one joint venture, HMC, which owns the IP. It licenses that IP to Hygon, which is majority owned by a Chinese company, that designs the chips and then sells the chips (after the further complication of HMC being the company that contracts out the fabrication of the design and then transferring the chips to Hygon. Again because of the licensing agreement with Intel.)
So, basically, AMD is a minority partner in the company that designs and sells the chips. They are the majority partner in the company that controls the IP so the whole JV can be done without AMD getting sued by Intel and an injunction being issued on the entire venture.
Oh boy, we have a sticky one here. Wait until the mainland chinese hear that Taiwan (or as called officially Republic of China) is not part of China (oficially called People's Republic of China)...
Good to see the joint venture's product finally hit the market. I'm curious about getting my hands on one, but they probably won't hit the 2nd hand market for a while. It took me ages to get a Loongson CPU and that was buried inside one of the worst laptops I've ever laid hands on.
Anyway, it's interesting news given the geopolitical backdrop.
AMD licensing its technology to China for making chips is one thing. For making chips likely to be used by China's military and intelligence services? That is a very risky business.
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ViperV990 - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
That is an unfortunate brand name.Enkur - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
why?ZipSpeed - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
Soon Gone?shrekabout - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
sugon deez nutsbigboxes - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
LOLFlunk - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
Yeah, I'm sure a company that sells only to the Chinese market cares about what their name sounds like to English speakers.s.yu - Friday, May 24, 2019 - link
I can tell you that the name doesn't immediately resemble Chinese.I looked it up and turns out the Chinese would be Shuguang, which makes more sense but only sounds vaguely similar.
jpecar - Friday, May 24, 2019 - link
Sugon is supposed to mean SUper draGON. Seems to me that chinese think it's cool. Or something.igavus - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
Given the recent developments in the US vs China trade war, this is good. It might not be the very latest tech, but it's recent enough to be competitive.HStewart - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
Is there a major concern of trade secrets in issues with China. For example some CPU's have algorithms that should not be use in foreign countries. The problem with China, maybe more of national security issue than a trade issue and this could be a major issue in the future. This could turn into a really bad thing.MrSpadge - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
No NSA backdoor in there? How dare they!HStewart - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
It not related to NSA but encryption rules from Chinahttps://www.computerworld.com/article/2517805/new-...
ZoZo - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
Another very smart technology transfer, so that China can become more independent of and more of a competitor to the US.peevee - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
Smart by China, but involving traitors in the US.R0H1T - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
The traitors have been feeding the dragon for better part of 5 decades, ever since Nixon opened up (to?) China naively assuming they'd flock to Western values like Japan or SK did.HStewart - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
I think the problem start before the 70's especially with it relations with Soviet Union. In the 60's there were problems in Europe including Germany after WW2, and it came into US.But I think the primary problem with US and China, is that China has cheap almost slave labor force and people have got use to it.
Here is a wiki on some of history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_trade_of_...
Oxford Guy - Saturday, May 25, 2019 - link
"ever since Nixon opened up (to?) China naively assuming they'd flock to Western values like Japan or SK did"Right, because Nixon was an idealist in both thought and action, not a servant to the plutocracy. lol
kd_ - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
Bullshitsgeocla - Friday, May 24, 2019 - link
It's all about the money. Intel wanted to get into the lucrative Chinese smartphone market in 2014 so they created a JV in China. They licensed their x86 and AMD64 IP to Spreadtrum to make 64 bit smartphone chips.They were not successful at selling them but China got access to the IP nonetheless.
Valantar - Friday, May 24, 2019 - link
"Traitors"? You must have an extremely low bar for using that word. I'd suggest a dictionary, but you'd probably see that as hostile.Skeptical123 - Friday, May 24, 2019 - link
Bingo!Colin1497 - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
Seems a reasonably safe bet that these are made at TSMC, Global Foundries, or one of the Global Foundries technology partners with a design rules option similar to what they've used at GloFo (Samsung?) and that the cores are essentially copy/paste designs. I can't imagine AMD laid the cores out for someone else's process, but I believe at this point that they've done zen about both GloFo and TSMC?sutamatamasu - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
This chips have potential to use 14nm from SMIC since primary focus is for government because GloFo FAB in China only produce for 22 FDX chipset.RaduR - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
Don't they need Intel X86 license?How is that possible?
R0H1T - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
AMD doesn't need a separate license, just like Intel don't need one for x64, not to mention the JV (AMD and THATIC) under which these processors are made is majority owned by AMD.iBoMbY - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
Yes, this whole JV thing was constructed to put it under the AMD/Intel cross-patent license agreement umbrella. Intel can't do jack about it.webdoctors - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
Its pretty shady that I can't license and make my own x86 processor but some company in China can with their "transparent" announcement that its just licensing of AMD processors and not just the x86 license. If that's true, it should be identical to 1st gen Ryzen, but if so why make it at all? AMD already makes semi-custom IP for Sony/MS. Seems shady.How long do these licenses last? After 40 yrs will someone finally be able to make an x86 compatible CPU without Intel/AMD permission?!
iBoMbY - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
The "x86 license" mostly is a US copyright thing. AMD and Intel share pretty much everything, this is why Intel can use AMD64 without any restriction. The JV is technically a AMD subsidiary with AMD in control of >50%. And what they are doing there is not semi-custom, but fully-custom with licensed IPs. It looks like they build in their own encryption standard stuff for example.AMD gets fees and royalties, the US government has a lot less options to kill/control this, and China can build whatever CPUs they need.
Yojimbo - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
A copyright thing? What do you mean? Maybe you mean patent...And AMD is only a majority stakeholder. To one of the formed joint ventures, the one that owns the rights to the patents. That is to get around the licensing agreement between AMD and Intel and not because of the US government.
If the US government wanted to declare it a national security issue they could. They won't let Intel or NVIDIA give specialized chips that go into Chinese supercomputers. I am sure they could easily argue some similar thing to put an end to this arrangement if they wanted to.
Freeb!rd - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
AMD is the MAJORITY (51%) stakeholder in HMC, Haiguang Microelectronics Co. Ltd. They are the company that actually signs a contract with a Foundry which produces them and HMC provides the chips back to Hygon (not sure why Anandtech can't get the company name correct)... also this product can only be sold in China and not exported.It is really AMD's way of prying CPU sales in China away from Intel (desktop & server). I would assume that the Security Processor (trusted zone) is not part of these CPU designs. 1) because that was built on ARM tech (which supposedly is not part of the IP license) and 2) doubtful that China wants that in the chip to begin with...
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/china-zen-x86-pr...
"To stay within the legal boundaries, HMC licenses the IP to Hygon, which designs the x86 chips and then sells the design back to HMC.
HMC then employs a foundry to fab the end product (likely China Foundries or TSMC). Confusingly, HMC then transfers the chips back to Hygon (the same company that designed them), which then sells the Dhyana processors.
And thus, AMD's licensing of the x86 IP stays within the legal boundaries."
drunkenmaster - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
Also worth pointing out that VIA did effectively the exact same thing a few years earlier and has a joint venture in China enabling them to produce custom x86 chips for the chinese market.sgeocla - Friday, May 24, 2019 - link
And also Intel did the same thing with Spreadtrum and x86+AMD64 IP for smartphone chips.s.yu - Friday, May 24, 2019 - link
Interesting that AMD was allowed to be the majority stockholder, I think China made a few exceptions.Yojimbo - Saturday, May 25, 2019 - link
According to the Tom's Hardware article, there are different joint ventures set up to work around the terms of AMD's licensing agreement with Intel. AMD has a majority stake in one joint venture, HMC, which owns the IP. It licenses that IP to Hygon, which is majority owned by a Chinese company, that designs the chips and then sells the chips (after the further complication of HMC being the company that contracts out the fabrication of the design and then transferring the chips to Hygon. Again because of the licensing agreement with Intel.)So, basically, AMD is a minority partner in the company that designs and sells the chips. They are the majority partner in the company that controls the IP so the whole JV can be done without AMD getting sued by Intel and an injunction being issued on the entire venture.
Oxford Guy - Saturday, May 25, 2019 - link
"doubtful that China wants that in the chip to begin with"The irony is astounding so no one will comment on it.
scottpar28 - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
My next question is does THATIC get the next ZEN 2 and Zen 3 IP?iBoMbY - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
One difference is, they support Chinese encryption: https://lkml.org/lkml/2019/4/15/386Freeb!rd - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
Nice link, I haven't come across that info before.Thx.
kd_ - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
Ian, if I understand the deal (and the current climate) correctly you probably need to go to China to review this, or do it remotely.Rudde - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
Where is Computex held this year?PixyMisa - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
Same place it is every year, Pinky: Not China.valinor89 - Friday, May 24, 2019 - link
Oh boy, we have a sticky one here. Wait until the mainland chinese hear that Taiwan (or as called officially Republic of China) is not part of China (oficially called People's Republic of China)...quadibloc - Thursday, June 13, 2019 - link
Not really in China for this purpose. Taiwan uses AMD or DES like everywhere else.PeachNCream - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
Good to see the joint venture's product finally hit the market. I'm curious about getting my hands on one, but they probably won't hit the 2nd hand market for a while. It took me ages to get a Loongson CPU and that was buried inside one of the worst laptops I've ever laid hands on.Anyway, it's interesting news given the geopolitical backdrop.
Maggie626 - Friday, May 24, 2019 - link
Wrong spell, Hygon not HugonEj24 - Friday, May 24, 2019 - link
So Uhh ryzen desktop class cpu with 256gb of memory eh? How do I get this without jumping up to HEDT where cpu and motherboard prices quadruple?quadibloc - Saturday, May 25, 2019 - link
AMD licensing its technology to China for making chips is one thing. For making chips likely to be used by China's military and intelligence services? That is a very risky business.