look, this goes for huawei AND the us government. the people need more transparency on what the heck is happening. its not just trade but the us and other governments finding backdoors and security issues on huawei devices. but we have NO information on what they are? COME ON MAN! what in the hell is even going on with both huawei and governments. tell us the truth. this goes for bot huawei and governments. what is up?
also i dont believe this crap is only because huawei is growing as a company. there is more to this than just that.
China bans hardware and software from companies in the USA as well. Often for stupid reasons. Its a game many governments play, Im sorry if this one affected you but it is a two way street.
@ Wardrive - China just interfered with one of my customers too. And they are a Chinese company also!?! But not tied to the gov like the competition company.
It has put us back 18 months, which whilst profitable for me personally, has been painfully expensive for my customer.
The question then is: why should the US government aim to be just as bad as the Chinese government? Doesn't that kind of undermine the whole idea of them being "the bad guy"?
Just as bad? China is ruled by a single party, a single party that elected a single leader that most likely will not be voted against (fear), a single leader who just last year abolished term limits for himself. This isnt about phones. At this point only a foolish government would allow Huawei into its infrastructure.
US is ruled by a small number of elite individuals, two political options have a single purpose that you think that you have a choice but in reality you don't. It's better to have single good monarch for life (but extremely rare) then bunch of fools.
You can't possibly believe the US worse than China... Yes, there is a ton of political corruption; yes, the system currently in place means your voting might not be as influential as you'd like, but there's so many bad things in China that would never happen in the US. US has freedom of speech and freedom of the press that allows you to say stuff like what you just did without getting sent to jail; you can access whatever websites you want without the government blocking stuff; you don't have the government persecuting some minority groups. It's not even comparable.
Have you been to China? Did you know their average factory labourer makes $1000 a month and has a two hour lunch break? Or that a place with 20-storey buildings is called a "village" simply because it doesn't have a train station yet? The model is different, but I think freedom of speech is overrated if you get to work with million dollar machinery and have the government literally throw money your way just so you can make world class products. There's a world beyond mere opining - a world of doing.
*Average factory labourer makes $1000 a month and has a two hour lunch break* Seems you have the wrong idea. Foxconn gives top blue collar wages in China, their rate is about what you cite or slightly lower. Most white collars anywhere other than the megacities have to live with income 1/3 less. Also, the jumps off roofs have stopped because they installed safety nets all over the place. The average annual personal income in China in 2018, under current exchange rates, was about $3300.
You are quoting Disposable Income, which is after tax. It is $3500 under current exchange rate.
However this is a country wide average. The Average Disposable Income last year of its capital Beijing is $9000. Beijing ranks the third among all Chinese cities.
I don't remember whether that figure was after tax or not, not that it matters because the personal income tax threshold is CNY5000, even earning $1000 you pay minimal income tax, there's also a high VAT and other taxes on specific sales. OTOH, Beijing's had the vast majority of its industrial activity transferred to neighboring provinces, you get very few "average factory laborers" in Beijing simply because there are very few factories. Granted, any factory worker left in Beijing probably earns more than "average", but the price of commodities in urban Beijing also approaches that of major US cities.
Same could be said for Chinese social infrastructure where government provides a lot (food, education, yob, roof...) of things when you are pore & homeless. In US you get deported to concentration camp (Hawai). Try to look at some of Adolfs political speeches then compare it to Trump's. Freedom of speech when no one is listening doesn't worth a dime same can be said for the press which is already in the interest sphere. In China it's a same old political corruption but at the end no matter how much their stole it always comes back to state (owned property). Then there's racism which is very alive and kicking in US and non existence (in its primary form at least) in China. More examples could be made easily so don't think twice it's all right.
"Chinese social infrastructure where government provides a lot (food, education, yob, roof...) of things when you are pore & homeless."
I don't know where you got that idea but you're mostly wrong. This *could* happen only when 1.you're systemically poor i.e. you're poor because you live in a poor place in China that's underdeveloped, and 2. you're poor in the absolute sense, in the sense that you lack purchasing power for basic commodity, not that you earn little compared to the national average but it's in line with your local economy. It's part of the state's policy for economic development, and it could reach you, but whether or not it does depends on their progress.
If you're simply a guy with a college degree who once succeeded in getting a low rank white collar job in a major city but somehow became unemployed and have trouble finding another job, the state gives you nothing. If you wander the streets, you won't be allowed to sleep under bridges like in the US, if you try to build some makeshift home it gets demolished as illegal squatting, you'll be caught and thrown back to wherever your Hukou sits. That's why there are few slums in China, most people who fail in major cities get thrown back to rural areas where they're out of sight of "city people" and the international community.
Despite what the Party claims, China practices state capitalism. The party calls itself Communist and calls its policy Socialism, but it's capitalism. As far as I can recall, China has defaulted at least twice on its old age pension system, meaning you don't get nearly what you're promised when they claimed your contributions, when you start collecting payments, this has already happened twice (of course any report about the topic is banned from the media, but it's not sensitive enough that academic articles are also banned) and current projections indicate that it's set to happen a third time. You should think that government filthy rich like China's should do a bail-out and give the poor retired seniors what they were promised, but no, China remains dedicated to commercial subsidies and international investments rather than making good on its promises to its citizens.
Well still better than getting sick, losing a job, not being able to pay your bills & ending up homeless. Sure you will get your social check but if you agree to move to Hawai.
"Well still better than getting sick, losing a job, not being able to pay your bills & ending up homeless" You need to reread the post, nothing guarantees that you won't get sick, won't lose your job, will be able to pay your bills and won't end up homeless. Getting sick in China is serious and somebody like the example above will not get covered by state insurance, that's only for people who's Hukou is located in certain major cities. Not that rural citizens don't get insured at all but their plans are basic and *any* major illness could destroy a family. When you lose your job, I should have been more specific, if you've worked at least a year in that position and meet some other criteria, you may claim ~850CNY a month for up to a year without employment, but you will certainly starve to death on that amount, much less pay your bills. The only reason the above example usually wouldn't end up homeless is that there's a high chance he has family where his Hukou sits he could fall back to, and he could probably help out as a farmer, that's the only reason, not that the state ensures employment if you would just cooperate with the relocation.
"Try to look at some of Adolfs political speeches then compare it to Trump's." And try to look at some of Adolf's policies, then compare it to Xi's. LMFAO. The suppression of dissent and encouragement of citizens to report disloyalty or in fact anything not "positive energy" is much like the era of the Gestapo, or Red Guards.
Xi's a goldilocks for Trump. Anyway I meant the gesticulation and performance. Well they ware pore & had only one secret police on the other hand US has a cuple dozen of it. How about concentration labour's for US citizens which ware Japanese in WW 2? How about Guatanamo today?
How about WW2? How about the Great Leap Forward then? The Cultural Revolution then? How many people died? How about Xinjiang and Tibet today? Many places there are basically under martial law, military and checkpoints everywhere and social network access is strictly restricted. I say this because a family member recently went and experienced it first hand, not that I read it from some western media.
"Freedom of speech when no one is listening doesn't worth a dime same can be said for the press which is already in the interest sphere." Someone's always listening. I noticed recently that the only reputable dissenter of 5G(who also questions Huawei's role in it) in China has had all his columns and his personal account banned in China. He argued for more independent development, less reliance on ARM, and exposed many shady deals in China's telecoms sector, and because he's in fact a patriot his articles once made Global Times, the most jingoistic state sponsored media in China. He was banned right before the current storm of Huawei's brainwash so now the only way of getting a second, insider's opinion on Huawei's current status is lost. Patriots getting silenced, also sounds like the acts of a decent regime./s
Someone does but not media, they are all paid & orchestrated. In order to be able to listen you need to have the mined of your own which ain't the case in the land of praud. Eastern Europeans still have that ability preserved from a cold war times.
The US media are paid by different people with different interests and that's most of the point. In China almost all information comes from Xinhua agency, independent media is basically nonexistent so the Party defines the "truth" and that's too dangerous.
"Then there's racism which is very alive and kicking in US and non existence (in its primary form at least) in China." In what primary form? The majority of Chinese (admittedly undereducated, or received the "wrong" education) actively discriminate against almost all other races of the world, it's practically blatant and unchallenged Chinese (the underlying implication usually Han Chinese) supremacism. All European descendants (apart from Jews when they're recognized) and Japanese are "鬼子", Koreans are "棒子", Indians are "阿三", Black Africans are "黑鬼", Muslims are "绿绿". Go on Youtube to see the racist ads aired in China, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
Wow that's so insulting the sing for to who you belong. Much worser than what African Americans had to bare with & still are or Latin Americans more today. Let's remember what happened to native Americans. That just paints the picture of other Americans. I don't see Chinese did even one tenth of that to other fellow Asians.
"I don't see Chinese did even one tenth of that to other fellow Asians. " That's because you're too ignorant on this subject you need to shut up. A naive nationalist motto often used in China before the PRC was "驱逐鞑虏，恢复中华", "鞑虏" meant savages north of (Han) China, referring to other Asians including Mongolians, near the end of Qing it was used by Han to refer to the rulers of the Qing dynasty who are Man people. When the Han conquered what is present day Guizhou they displaced almost all the locals from their homes and broke them up among the Han for cultural assimilation, not unlike what the Japanese did in Taiwan and northeast China during the WWII. The racist policies of the Yuan and Qing rule are also very well documented, where the Inner Mongolians and Man people are all considered part of the Chinese nation today.
Who are today's Americans? A descendents of European criminals. What happened with real Americans? What's that a genocide? Are you trying to compare that with Chinese are doing? Well try a little harder.
I really don't think you understand the conversation topic, and you keep deferring to other random things to distract from the true topic. Racism is rampant throughout China, and how they deal with "foreigners". Hell, they even refer to foreigners as that, foreigners and treat them as such. There are separate rules for all "foreigners". If I didn't look Chinese, I can guarantee you I'd be treated extremely different than foreign born Chinese, which would also be classified as "foreigners" - Racism is racism, there are no degrees of racism.
There's emigration lows in US that separate children from their parents right now and US is making a border wall with Mexico. So there are different levels of racism. Not to mention plundering, killing & pouting all around the world.
@ s.yu - you've beaten him down to the ground. His distorted world view, verses our ACTUAL experiences and knowledge of China, he cannot argue.
I'm glad you touched on the 'supremacism' issue. I have seen that since the late 90's. The China-centric view that they are center of everything, and best culture, most powerful, and on, and on. Thailand, were I live, has this sort-of too. It might be the 'land of smiles' but the supremacism, and racism, are right beneath the surface of their culture. Skewed laws, court decisions, property / aircraft ownership, visa mess, restricted occupations, and more.
"you think that you have a choice but in reality you don't" There's no denying that the flow of information is more free in the US, or in most places around the world actually, than in China. If you're in China you won't believe the brainwash the Party and its drones are spreading around about Huawei these days. I'd rather see two factions exposing each other and make my own conclusions than one faction freely deifying itself.
You lived in some Communist country before so you know how bad it is? I did in one which passport would at the time alow you to travel freely to more than 200 countries. Can you do that with US passport today? You also had a; good paid job, social security, free medical care & you had a two (full month) annual vacation every year among other things you're kids had quality free education and extra curricular activities. It whosent really communist country in hard meaning of the word at it's time it whose rather developed having advanced prestige nuclear institute and semiconductor manufacturing (bought a part of Honeywell). Trought if you have worked/speak against government you would end in prison but don't think how this is any different in today's home of proud & free for instance take a look at Julians example.
Think you will find out after he isn't president anymore. How much of it's own stuff did Barack menage to push? Do you really think Trump decides about much things or that it would be much difference if it whose someone else?
Well in Venezuela the current government is democratically elected one, same as it whose in dozen other places US did occupy in last 20 years.
"why should the US government aim to be just as bad as the Chinese government?"
Yeah, if Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor, why should we be as bad and bomb them?
China conducts an economic war against the US for 40 years, employing traitors in our government to advance their interests. Finally it seems we have a non-traitor as a President.
I hate to post politics in a technology forum but... in general in China ethnic minority enjoys huge advantage over ordinary Han people in everyday life. This goes from leniency in sentencing criminals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liangshaoyikuan) to bonus in college entrance examination (Gaokao). I will expand on the latter point a bit. Gaokao is very roughly equivalent to SAT in the U.S., but much more important, because in China there is in general no consideration given for extracurricular activities and recommendation letters. If a student is an ethnic minority, he/she would automatically get 5 to 20 extra points on Gaokao (on top of a total of ~400 to 750 points on the exam, depending on the province). The policy at the provincial level can be found here: https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/57481665 . The site is in Chinese, but google translate does an OK job.
That is a HUGE advantage.
Just to elaborate further, if a student has one of the parents being Han (the ethnic majority) while the other belonging to an ethnic minority group, then the student has the freedom to classify him/herself either as Han or an ethnic minority. For the a few cases I know, if a student had such a choice, _not a single one_ would classify him/herself as Han, if for nothing else but for the added bonus in Gaokao.
So much for the purported discrimination against minorities. Now compare this to the U.S. where you have the Chinese exclusion act and (now) alleged Harvard admission bias...
By the way if you are a foreigner, then you are even luckier. For getting into the very best science/engineering institution like Tsinghua University (where Andrew Yao, who received the 2000 Turing award, is employed full-time), you can just apply and don't even need to enter Gaokao.
It is truly amazing that people in a country that had to endure the century of humiliation, two Opium wars, two Sino-Japanese wars (in the second up to twenty million Chinese died), among others, are now branded as being racist.
The Party does grant privileges for foreigners receiving higher education, but it just about stops there. First of all, the decision-making core of the Party which decided on this is not democratically elected, that's why some policies notably go against the local culture, which is racist. Second, the diploma for foreigners entering through the alternative application is different from locals which passed through Gaokao, it also holds different weight, unlike US diplomas which are the same for both foreign students and locals. Third, if you see ease of receiving higher education as special treatment, there are disadvantages to foreigners as well, many administration fees are higher, IIRC the tax structure is also different. And of course, it's near impossible for a foreigner to attain citizenship in China.
Regarding ethnic issues, the examples from centuries ago were merely directed at that insane Soviet as he kept bringing centuries old history up. Currently, Policy-wise minorities are at a significant advantage, clearly the Party's bribe to keep them loyal. I know many Han are discontent about the special treatment minorities get, just as people on rural Hukou are discontent about certain policies leaning toward people with urban Hukou. Otherwise the only significant racial tension left in China should be between Muslims and Han, a significant proportion of both view the other side negatively, and physical conflict is not uncommon.
US government is really gracious to Huawei as they keep claiming Huawai is a security threat but also keep the evidences as the highest secret - not even wikileak can access it unlike NSA.
They don't have to, they already published the detailed report about Huawei selling US tech to Iran under a shell which the Chinese never properly disputed with any counterevidence, and that's reason enough for Huawei to make the list. By that point whether to list them was already the discretion of the US.
The ban to Iran is violated by many US and Europe companies. Or have you checked Irangate? Can I call Whitehouse and Israel a security threat because they secretly delivered weapon to Iran during Iran - Iraqi war?
It is kind of double standard to say Huawai is a security threat only because it has some business relations with Iran. A normal person would expect security flaws or loopholes intentionally added by the company to their products if it is called a security threat.
Sure US government can do whatever they see fit. But evidence?
“It is kind of double standard to say Huawai is a security threat only because it has some business relations with Iran” Yes, and double standards are widely practiced around the world. Your law gives you an excuse to act but that doesn't mean enforcement is non-conditional. China accuses the US of obstructing free trade, but China itself has always been obstructing free trade. Its trade barriers have been in place since (and for some, before) it joined the WTO and people hardly pay attention anymore, for most locals, they've truly been brainwashed into thinking China promotes free trade while the US is "picking on a mere private business". Reverse the trade policies between the US and China and see China's economy collapse overnight, the barriers won't do the US much good in the short term but may eventually revive the industry sector.
"A normal person would expect security flaws or loopholes intentionally added by the company to their products if it is called a security threat." In Vodafone's case (go read it) they found and reported a vulnerability to Huawei, Huawei promptly told them it's been fixed, then they tested it again and found that it was still open with a little cover-up, and finally Huawei refused to fix it stating it would affect the "quality" of the firmware. Tell me that's not intentional. Ironically Vodafone still intends to use Huawei because they're cheap, a prime example of the west surrendering autonomy to China from financial issues.
Well Germany did found back doors but not in Huawei network equipment but Cisco's. Qualcomm property modem RTOS is closed source with exploits and backdoor's, same can be said for Intels security co processors. Let's ban all of them then.
@ Zolall - finally, you come out with something partly true. Cisco was found to have backdoors installed, but I believe it was the Russians, not the Germans that discovered them.
I don't know if this was specific to a certain IOS release for Russia, as its unlikely to be found in home-nets thats for sure. But Cisco stopped their games, and Huawei etc will never, given the communist gov they have.
The TRUTH is that the US government is finally trying to lock the doors after all the carrier pigeons have already flown the coop.... Or, to put it in simple terms, Greed. US near-sighted stockholders want money. Cheapest way for US firms to deliver to the stockholders is to go with the cheapest qualified labor they can find. China. Now, you don't need a crystal ball to look backwards, do you? By giving the Chinese access to the latest technology, are you surprisedthat they use that technology and actually IMPROVE it? Or, that they use it for themselves and actually COMPETE? Do you think that the USA is actually above this kind of behavior? Remember Rubbermaid? The Waltons insisted that they get their products made in China so that Walmart could get better discounts on their products. So, to paraphrase Will Shakspere, the US has been hoist on its own petard called GREED.
So...what does this mean for owners of existing Huawei Android devices? I have their first WearOS watch and a friend of mine has a Nexus 6P. Are we SOL on future updates beyond the basic AOSP core?
But recent phones... That's gonna be interesting. Theoretically Huawei can patch the kernel vulnerabilities just fine, and even upgrade the android version while keeping "what's there already" WRT Google play. But wouldn't bet my money on that.
@SirPerro Neither device receives new major revisions of Android, but both are still receiving patches and sometimes even new features, or at least were until now.
While mine doesn't have it yet, there are HWatch1s that have received the new "Tiles" update to WearOS.
this only affects New uncertified phones after this ban (currant phones are unaffected) not sure how it would prevent , this could be a big problem for the Mate 30 pro later on this year or they could just load google play still it just be uncertified version
This basically kills all Huawei smartphones for the rest of the world. Currently they all rely on Google services just like all international versions of Chinese smartphones.
It's a shame for the smartphones, that weren't mired in controversy, to suffer. Blatant protectionist measure.
You realize China blocked Qualcomm's merger with NXP out of spite? Do you know many forms of direct investment to China are banned and only joint ventures (with local funding) instead are allowed? Do you know how high China's customs rates are? "protectionist measure"? China *is the protectionist* if there ever is one.
Correction, they would lose all google business INCLUDING OPEN SOURCE. If the code is on US servers or owned by a US company, even if it's royalty free, it would be part of any blacklisting!
Under US law Google would be required to prevent their IP from being used by blacklisted companies to a reasonable degree, especially if it uses encryption (even if they don't own the encryption part)
It's open source. Google can't say you're not allowed to download/use it to anyone. That's the entire point of it being foss. Google can stop talking to Huawei about it. Google can stop accepting Pull Requests/etc from Huawei. But Google/etc can't stop publishing updated AOSP code any time the release a new device. And once the code is out in public Huawei is as free to download and do WTH they want with it as anyone else.
"Open source" is not the same as no copyright or patent free. Most open source has the copyright retained by the original entity, and that's how they enforce that open source status (in GNU case, they actually sue people for copyright infringement for not releasing code). For patents it's pretty much the same thing, where the entity owns the patent but doesn't require royalties for authorized use. Because of import/export laws in the US though, simply letting them download code from any Google (or other company with US presence ) server would be enough to trigger export compliance violations (since android has encryption built in)
Or that they would obey any such ban were it imposed? I mean, let's be honest. No one in China gives a flying crap if you're breaking any license, and Huawei can find several ways to get around any probable attempt at blocking them from most source repositories.
So the result might be that Huawei brings its own store to Europe which is full of Chinese-made applications with who knows what security and/or backdoors?
And so it begins what I've been trying to tell people for years allready. The US or better said the US-companies hold 95% of all soft- and hardware-patents in the IT-sector. No computer in the world runs without intel, AMD, ARM, nVidia, Apple, Microsoft or Google. The US knows this, and is starting right here, right now to pressure foreign companies or countries into submission in an effort to make them do what the US wants.
It's the beginning of the end of an empire, which will use every option to hold on to it's power.
How many of those chips are made outside of US though? Especially the top of the line 10nm, 7nm etc chips. In addition,Samsung and Huawei have their own silicon divisions, Huawei flagship devices run on their own silicone and they make their own modems.
ARM is no longer British, they were bought by SoftBank back in 2016. They're still headquartered in the UK, but they're technically a Japanese company now.
In addition to ARM designs China has designed their own CPUs for their last supercomputer, albeit based on DEC Alpha designs, and they run a homegrown OS and kernel on it as well. This move by the US is a two-edged one and will accelerate China's own technology development efforts rather than dampen them.
China has been trying to make procs for a long time. There's the Zhaoxin cpu by VIA, which bought up Cyrix and Centaur. They're x86 compatible procs for China government use.
Although Huawei can no longer receive updates from google about their latest version of Android OS, they can use an existing open version Android and adopt it as their own. Huawei already has a plan B, developing their own OS which is HongMeng OS, which is a fork of Android OS much like how Amazon developed their own version of Fire OS.
Huawei doesn't even let you unlock the bootloader so you can't even load your own ROMs if the official ones are locked out. Its like they purposely shoot themselves in the foot.
The USA, in all it's hypocrisy needs to re-think a bit what they are doing. A very large percentage of technology is manufactured in China. They have the production know how and -capacity. The USA for sure no longer has that right now. This could seriously backfire if the Chinese suddenly decide no longer to deliver phones/tablets/motherboards/switches/chipsets/etc..., that are being produced largely in China & Taiwan, to the USA. All this posturing and taxing could lead to a point where even China would say: we don't care about the US market anymore. China has a large enough market in the rest of the world, not to mention China itself. Trump is acting like an 8 year old bully who doesn't get what he wants. This could all return like a boomerang into the US's face - and it won't be Trump eating the beans for it, it will be the US citizens! In the mean time, the Russians are having a good laugh about all this posturing and will take advantage of the situation. Besides: they are accusing Huawei of spying? What the hell does the US do? Let's not be naïve. Anybody ever heard of patriot act? I wouldn't be surprised the NSA, CIA, FBI are responsible for more backdoors and spying than the Chinese are.
"The USA, in all it's hypocrisy"? China's GDP by PPP is higher than the US, its authoritarian government is very wealthy through high taxes, it has had a high customs barrier before and after it joined the WTO, and actively throws money behind many local companies giving them unfair advantage in global competition, and when Huawei (which enjoys unlimited debts from one of China's policy banks, among other government subsidies) gets banned they whine about obstruction of free trade. WOFE?
I know Taiwan is officially an "independent country", but unfortunately not 100% so - even if I and they would absolutely like that. I know Foxconn is a very large company - but much of its manufacturing capacity is currently still concentrated in China, even when they invested in Winconsin - that plant isn't ready for mass production yet. Just my 2 cents : Trump is alienating a lot of people at the moment and it will NOT be good for the US citizens if he continues this way. I'm not writing anything about China and it's authoritarian regime being a "good" thing. It's not like I even want to be positive about that. The only thing I'm stating is that the US needs to keep mind that - at the moment - they most likely do NOT have the know how and production capacity/knowledge anymore and they are really very dependent of China and Taiwan right now. In that position I wouldn't be storming around like an elephant in a porcelain store breaking whatever improvement of relations there is/was with such a big nation who would really be just as capable to say at some point: frell off, we can do without the US.
I agree that it's really, really helped China play the victim here, both domestically and internationally, but currently China's export-oriented economy doesn't allow it to decouple from the US.
David, do you think China is going to voluntarily not ship their products to the US? And if they don't have access to American technology products much of their own technology industry gets stuck in the mud, so it's not a game they would want to play even if they were willing to forgo the $500 billion a year in sales.
In any case, it's been China that has been alienating people. They used carrots and sticks to buy off the CEOs and other wealthy elites while the rest of Americans were taken advantage of, but even those CEOs are now getting fed up because the promises made were never kept and all they see now is competition from protected Chinese companies with the technology they provided and still no true access to the markets they salivated over. At this moment, China are the ones that can't do without the US. Prices will certainly go up for the US, and the rest of the world, without China. But there are things that China needs that they cannot get without American companies.
Also, I know the CIA lies a lot, but don't dismiss the real possibility of security issues with Huawei equipment. Frankly, it's foolish for anyone to put such equipment in their infrastructure when the company is state owned and must answer to the CCP, an authoritarian regime. The only reason that it's passed so far is because people's greed has got the best of them.
Technically Huawei's private, but they're probably the "private" company most tied to the Party on this planet. In China, ownership status doesn't matter in the way it does in the rest of the world, because laws and policies are more flexible which enables the Party to enact its will very effectively. If your services are needed, there's no way to say no, not to mention Huawei had close ties to the Party from the very beginning and has always been very loyal to the Party.
Wikipedia says the shares are held by a trade union committee that is representative of the employees. But those shares are nontradable, have no voting rights - except to select from among pre-selected candidates for a "Representatives' Commission", which I am guessing has little power anyway - and must be relinquished upon dismissal (and I presume death) of an employee. This makes it sound to me like some sort of way to hand out yearly bonuses through "dividends" and service bonuses payable upon retirement while simultaneously allowing the claim to be made that it is employee owned, no matter how ridiculous that claim seems to be if the details on Wikipedia are accurate. In any case, the employees do not have any rights or powers that would be consistent with the usual definition of "ownership". It doesn't even sound like the shares are in any way indicative of the value of the company. How could it be? If 99% of the shares are held thus where would they get the money to pay for employee turnover if the share values accurately represented the value of the company? New employees would need to buy into the company with their own money for it to make any sense. In any case, I don't see any way for any other entity to invest in the company. But surely someone must be in charge to allow it to happen. The employees representative commission? And who pre-selects and controls that commission? So then who does own it? Who has the actual rights and powers? I think we know the answer.
They demand to have "equal footing" in trade negotiations. I guess that means the right to take advantage of someone without being told they must stop by the party they are taking advantage of. At the same time they demand to be considered a developing nation by the WTO so they have access to special loans, then loan out money to other countries, including developed countries like Italy, for infrastructure investment. It's called gaming the system and it's great as long as everyone lets you get away with it.
We have 3 Huawei Mate 10 LItes in our family. They are Dual Sim. 1 sim for Cricket/AT&T (USA) and 1 sim for Telcel (Mexico). I spend about 6 months in Mexico each year and when in the USA I live 30 minutes from the border and cross often (affordable dental and great Pozole in Mexico). I have a Sentry Pass so crossing is minutes. So, when I'm in Mexico, I'll just move the Telcel to Sim1 (faster 4G) and Cricket/AT&T to Sim2 and get my updates.
That said, my phone received an update here in the USA on Saturday.
I suspect that one reason why Google didn't put up a big fight when ordered to stop supplying Huawei with its software is that it didn't have that much to loose. Not that long ago, the Chinese government's insistence to tightly control internet searches led to Google leaving the Chinese search market, so they don't have that much at stake now. That's one of the big upsides of reasonably free international trade: hitting another country also hurts your own country's businesses.
The measure is strongly supported by both Congress and the Executive Branch and by both major political parties. It is supported by accusations of national security concerns by US intelligence agencies and it comes via a declared national emergency. I imagine if Google were to try to put up a fight against such a thing they would comply first, and then try to lobby behind closed doors.
SwitfKey keyboard - can anybody rid of if it on Huawei smart phones and put back original Google's keyboard? It always felt to me like overaggressive to force users to this software while not allowing users to remove it. Sometimes I think that Chinese(some) are not just crazy about spying and stealing but also are simply dumb - for how do they not realize that pushing & pressing people can only backfire.
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austinsguitar - Sunday, May 19, 2019 - link
look, this goes for huawei AND the us government. the people need more transparency on what the heck is happening. its not just trade but the us and other governments finding backdoors and security issues on huawei devices. but we have NO information on what they are? COME ON MAN! what in the hell is even going on with both huawei and governments. tell us the truth. this goes for bot huawei and governments. what is up?also i dont believe this crap is only because huawei is growing as a company. there is more to this than just that.
StrangerGuy - Sunday, May 19, 2019 - link
I don't know about Huawei, but the accountability and credibility of the US government is one big, sick hypocritical joke.Wardrive86 - Sunday, May 19, 2019 - link
China bans hardware and software from companies in the USA as well. Often for stupid reasons. Its a game many governments play, Im sorry if this one affected you but it is a two way street.Notmyusualid - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
@ Wardrive - China just interfered with one of my customers too. And they are a Chinese company also!?! But not tied to the gov like the competition company.It has put us back 18 months, which whilst profitable for me personally, has been painfully expensive for my customer.
So yes, interference, on a whim.
Valantar - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
The question then is: why should the US government aim to be just as bad as the Chinese government? Doesn't that kind of undermine the whole idea of them being "the bad guy"?Wardrive86 - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
Just as bad? China is ruled by a single party, a single party that elected a single leader that most likely will not be voted against (fear), a single leader who just last year abolished term limits for himself. This isnt about phones. At this point only a foolish government would allow Huawei into its infrastructure.ZolaIII - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
US is ruled by a small number of elite individuals, two political options have a single purpose that you think that you have a choice but in reality you don't. It's better to have single good monarch for life (but extremely rare) then bunch of fools.Dr. Swag - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
You can't possibly believe the US worse than China... Yes, there is a ton of political corruption; yes, the system currently in place means your voting might not be as influential as you'd like, but there's so many bad things in China that would never happen in the US. US has freedom of speech and freedom of the press that allows you to say stuff like what you just did without getting sent to jail; you can access whatever websites you want without the government blocking stuff; you don't have the government persecuting some minority groups. It's not even comparable.ads295 - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
Have you been to China? Did you know their average factory labourer makes $1000 a month and has a two hour lunch break? Or that a place with 20-storey buildings is called a "village" simply because it doesn't have a train station yet?The model is different, but I think freedom of speech is overrated if you get to work with million dollar machinery and have the government literally throw money your way just so you can make world class products.
There's a world beyond mere opining - a world of doing.
s.yu - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
*Average factory labourer makes $1000 a month and has a two hour lunch break*Seems you have the wrong idea. Foxconn gives top blue collar wages in China, their rate is about what you cite or slightly lower. Most white collars anywhere other than the megacities have to live with income 1/3 less. Also, the jumps off roofs have stopped because they installed safety nets all over the place.
The average annual personal income in China in 2018, under current exchange rates, was about $3300.
wilsonkf - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
You are quoting Disposable Income, which is after tax. It is $3500 under current exchange rate.However this is a country wide average. The Average Disposable Income last year of its capital Beijing is $9000. Beijing ranks the third among all Chinese cities.
s.yu - Tuesday, May 21, 2019 - link
I don't remember whether that figure was after tax or not, not that it matters because the personal income tax threshold is CNY5000, even earning $1000 you pay minimal income tax, there's also a high VAT and other taxes on specific sales.OTOH, Beijing's had the vast majority of its industrial activity transferred to neighboring provinces, you get very few "average factory laborers" in Beijing simply because there are very few factories. Granted, any factory worker left in Beijing probably earns more than "average", but the price of commodities in urban Beijing also approaches that of major US cities.
RadiclDreamer - Tuesday, May 21, 2019 - link
Seems like someone has touched a nerve for daring question the great and powerful Winnie the PooNotmyusualid - Tuesday, May 21, 2019 - link
@ s.yu - sounds about right.ZolaIII - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
Same could be said for Chinese social infrastructure where government provides a lot (food, education, yob, roof...) of things when you are pore & homeless. In US you get deported to concentration camp (Hawai). Try to look at some of Adolfs political speeches then compare it to Trump's. Freedom of speech when no one is listening doesn't worth a dime same can be said for the press which is already in the interest sphere. In China it's a same old political corruption but at the end no matter how much their stole it always comes back to state (owned property). Then there's racism which is very alive and kicking in US and non existence (in its primary form at least) in China. More examples could be made easily so don't think twice it's all right.s.yu - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
"Chinese social infrastructure where government provides a lot (food, education, yob, roof...) of things when you are pore & homeless."I don't know where you got that idea but you're mostly wrong. This *could* happen only when 1.you're systemically poor i.e. you're poor because you live in a poor place in China that's underdeveloped, and 2. you're poor in the absolute sense, in the sense that you lack purchasing power for basic commodity, not that you earn little compared to the national average but it's in line with your local economy. It's part of the state's policy for economic development, and it could reach you, but whether or not it does depends on their progress.
If you're simply a guy with a college degree who once succeeded in getting a low rank white collar job in a major city but somehow became unemployed and have trouble finding another job, the state gives you nothing. If you wander the streets, you won't be allowed to sleep under bridges like in the US, if you try to build some makeshift home it gets demolished as illegal squatting, you'll be caught and thrown back to wherever your Hukou sits. That's why there are few slums in China, most people who fail in major cities get thrown back to rural areas where they're out of sight of "city people" and the international community.
Despite what the Party claims, China practices state capitalism. The party calls itself Communist and calls its policy Socialism, but it's capitalism. As far as I can recall, China has defaulted at least twice on its old age pension system, meaning you don't get nearly what you're promised when they claimed your contributions, when you start collecting payments, this has already happened twice (of course any report about the topic is banned from the media, but it's not sensitive enough that academic articles are also banned) and current projections indicate that it's set to happen a third time. You should think that government filthy rich like China's should do a bail-out and give the poor retired seniors what they were promised, but no, China remains dedicated to commercial subsidies and international investments rather than making good on its promises to its citizens.
ZolaIII - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
Well still better than getting sick, losing a job, not being able to pay your bills & ending up homeless. Sure you will get your social check but if you agree to move to Hawai.s.yu - Tuesday, May 21, 2019 - link
"Well still better than getting sick, losing a job, not being able to pay your bills & ending up homeless"You need to reread the post, nothing guarantees that you won't get sick, won't lose your job, will be able to pay your bills and won't end up homeless.
Getting sick in China is serious and somebody like the example above will not get covered by state insurance, that's only for people who's Hukou is located in certain major cities. Not that rural citizens don't get insured at all but their plans are basic and *any* major illness could destroy a family.
When you lose your job, I should have been more specific, if you've worked at least a year in that position and meet some other criteria, you may claim ~850CNY a month for up to a year without employment, but you will certainly starve to death on that amount, much less pay your bills.
The only reason the above example usually wouldn't end up homeless is that there's a high chance he has family where his Hukou sits he could fall back to, and he could probably help out as a farmer, that's the only reason, not that the state ensures employment if you would just cooperate with the relocation.
Notmyusualid - Tuesday, May 21, 2019 - link
@ s.yu - I like you. Well informed & honest.I've been to China twice already this year, and will be back in China end of June. Wish me luck. It certainly tests my patience.
s.yu - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
"Try to look at some of Adolfs political speeches then compare it to Trump's."And try to look at some of Adolf's policies, then compare it to Xi's.
LMFAO. The suppression of dissent and encouragement of citizens to report disloyalty or in fact anything not "positive energy" is much like the era of the Gestapo, or Red Guards.
ZolaIII - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
Xi's a goldilocks for Trump. Anyway I meant the gesticulation and performance. Well they ware pore & had only one secret police on the other hand US has a cuple dozen of it. How about concentration labour's for US citizens which ware Japanese in WW 2? How about Guatanamo today?s.yu - Tuesday, May 21, 2019 - link
How about WW2?How about the Great Leap Forward then? The Cultural Revolution then? How many people died? How about Xinjiang and Tibet today? Many places there are basically under martial law, military and checkpoints everywhere and social network access is strictly restricted. I say this because a family member recently went and experienced it first hand, not that I read it from some western media.
s.yu - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
"Freedom of speech when no one is listening doesn't worth a dime same can be said for the press which is already in the interest sphere."Someone's always listening. I noticed recently that the only reputable dissenter of 5G(who also questions Huawei's role in it) in China has had all his columns and his personal account banned in China. He argued for more independent development, less reliance on ARM, and exposed many shady deals in China's telecoms sector, and because he's in fact a patriot his articles once made Global Times, the most jingoistic state sponsored media in China. He was banned right before the current storm of Huawei's brainwash so now the only way of getting a second, insider's opinion on Huawei's current status is lost.
Patriots getting silenced, also sounds like the acts of a decent regime./s
ZolaIII - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
Someone does but not media, they are all paid & orchestrated. In order to be able to listen you need to have the mined of your own which ain't the case in the land of praud. Eastern Europeans still have that ability preserved from a cold war times.s.yu - Tuesday, May 21, 2019 - link
The US media are paid by different people with different interests and that's most of the point.In China almost all information comes from Xinhua agency, independent media is basically nonexistent so the Party defines the "truth" and that's too dangerous.
ZolaIII - Wednesday, May 22, 2019 - link
It's the same thing only you are blind to see it.s.yu - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
"Then there's racism which is very alive and kicking in US and non existence (in its primary form at least) in China."In what primary form? The majority of Chinese (admittedly undereducated, or received the "wrong" education) actively discriminate against almost all other races of the world, it's practically blatant and unchallenged Chinese (the underlying implication usually Han Chinese) supremacism. All European descendants (apart from Jews when they're recognized) and Japanese are "鬼子", Koreans are "棒子", Indians are "阿三", Black Africans are "黑鬼", Muslims are "绿绿".
Go on Youtube to see the racist ads aired in China, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
ZolaIII - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
Wow that's so insulting the sing for to who you belong. Much worser than what African Americans had to bare with & still are or Latin Americans more today. Let's remember what happened to native Americans. That just paints the picture of other Americans. I don't see Chinese did even one tenth of that to other fellow Asians.s.yu - Tuesday, May 21, 2019 - link
"I don't see Chinese did even one tenth of that to other fellow Asians. "That's because you're too ignorant on this subject you need to shut up. A naive nationalist motto often used in China before the PRC was "驱逐鞑虏，恢复中华", "鞑虏" meant savages north of (Han) China, referring to other Asians including Mongolians, near the end of Qing it was used by Han to refer to the rulers of the Qing dynasty who are Man people. When the Han conquered what is present day Guizhou they displaced almost all the locals from their homes and broke them up among the Han for cultural assimilation, not unlike what the Japanese did in Taiwan and northeast China during the WWII. The racist policies of the Yuan and Qing rule are also very well documented, where the Inner Mongolians and Man people are all considered part of the Chinese nation today.
ZolaIII - Wednesday, May 22, 2019 - link
Who are today's Americans? A descendents of European criminals. What happened with real Americans? What's that a genocide? Are you trying to compare that with Chinese are doing? Well try a little harder.Notmyusualid - Tuesday, May 21, 2019 - link
@ Zolall - W H E R E are the missing Falun Gong?What happened to them, is a new 'low' for humanity. All in Chinese 'Military Hospitals'. Look it up.
Sushisamurai - Tuesday, May 21, 2019 - link
I really don't think you understand the conversation topic, and you keep deferring to other random things to distract from the true topic. Racism is rampant throughout China, and how they deal with "foreigners". Hell, they even refer to foreigners as that, foreigners and treat them as such. There are separate rules for all "foreigners". If I didn't look Chinese, I can guarantee you I'd be treated extremely different than foreign born Chinese, which would also be classified as "foreigners" - Racism is racism, there are no degrees of racism.ZolaIII - Wednesday, May 22, 2019 - link
There's emigration lows in US that separate children from their parents right now and US is making a border wall with Mexico. So there are different levels of racism. Not to mention plundering, killing & pouting all around the world.Notmyusualid - Tuesday, May 21, 2019 - link
@ s.yu - you've beaten him down to the ground. His distorted world view, verses our ACTUAL experiences and knowledge of China, he cannot argue.I'm glad you touched on the 'supremacism' issue. I have seen that since the late 90's. The China-centric view that they are center of everything, and best culture, most powerful, and on, and on. Thailand, were I live, has this sort-of too. It might be the 'land of smiles' but the supremacism, and racism, are right beneath the surface of their culture. Skewed laws, court decisions, property / aircraft ownership, visa mess, restricted occupations, and more.
ZolaIII - Wednesday, May 22, 2019 - link
Well how about my knowledge of US?tuxRoller - Tuesday, May 21, 2019 - link
I'm not sure what you mean by "primary form", but it doesn't take much effort to discover that discrimination isn't "non existence" in China.Here's a quick one:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-45147972
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-45147972
s.yu - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
"you think that you have a choice but in reality you don't"There's no denying that the flow of information is more free in the US, or in most places around the world actually, than in China. If you're in China you won't believe the brainwash the Party and its drones are spreading around about Huawei these days. I'd rather see two factions exposing each other and make my own conclusions than one faction freely deifying itself.
ZolaIII - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
You lived in some Communist country before so you know how bad it is? I did in one which passport would at the time alow you to travel freely to more than 200 countries. Can you do that with US passport today? You also had a; good paid job, social security, free medical care & you had a two (full month) annual vacation every year among other things you're kids had quality free education and extra curricular activities. It whosent really communist country in hard meaning of the word at it's time it whose rather developed having advanced prestige nuclear institute and semiconductor manufacturing (bought a part of Honeywell). Trought if you have worked/speak against government you would end in prison but don't think how this is any different in today's home of proud & free for instance take a look at Julians example.Notmyusualid - Tuesday, May 21, 2019 - link
@ Zolalll - you are nuts pal. If you think the US was ruled by a handfull of people, then explain how Trump, someone people love to hate, got elected.You can't.
He won a democratic vote. You think that is the same in Beijing?
ZolaIII - Wednesday, May 22, 2019 - link
Think you will find out after he isn't president anymore. How much of it's own stuff did Barack menage to push? Do you really think Trump decides about much things or that it would be much difference if it whose someone else?Well in Venezuela the current government is democratically elected one, same as it whose in dozen other places US did occupy in last 20 years.
sonny73n - Tuesday, May 21, 2019 - link
And how many parties rule the US?The Deep State is not even a party.
Notmyusualid - Tuesday, May 21, 2019 - link
@ Wardrive - well said.peevee - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
"why should the US government aim to be just as bad as the Chinese government?"Yeah, if Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor, why should we be as bad and bomb them?
China conducts an economic war against the US for 40 years, employing traitors in our government to advance their interests. Finally it seems we have a non-traitor as a President.
Qizhi.Yao - Tuesday, May 21, 2019 - link
I hate to post politics in a technology forum but... in general in China ethnic minority enjoys huge advantage over ordinary Han people in everyday life. This goes from leniency in sentencing criminals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liangshaoyikuan) to bonus in college entrance examination (Gaokao). I will expand on the latter point a bit. Gaokao is very roughly equivalent to SAT in the U.S., but much more important, because in China there is in general no consideration given for extracurricular activities and recommendation letters. If a student is an ethnic minority, he/she would automatically get 5 to 20 extra points on Gaokao (on top of a total of ~400 to 750 points on the exam, depending on the province). The policy at the provincial level can be found here: https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/57481665 . The site is in Chinese, but google translate does an OK job.That is a HUGE advantage.
Just to elaborate further, if a student has one of the parents being Han (the ethnic majority) while the other belonging to an ethnic minority group, then the student has the freedom to classify him/herself either as Han or an ethnic minority. For the a few cases I know, if a student had such a choice, _not a single one_ would classify him/herself as Han, if for nothing else but for the added bonus in Gaokao.
So much for the purported discrimination against minorities. Now compare this to the U.S. where you have the Chinese exclusion act and (now) alleged Harvard admission bias...
By the way if you are a foreigner, then you are even luckier. For getting into the very best science/engineering institution like Tsinghua University (where Andrew Yao, who received the 2000 Turing award, is employed full-time), you can just apply and don't even need to enter Gaokao.
It is truly amazing that people in a country that had to endure the century of humiliation, two Opium wars, two Sino-Japanese wars (in the second up to twenty million Chinese died), among others, are now branded as being racist.
s.yu - Wednesday, May 22, 2019 - link
The Party does grant privileges for foreigners receiving higher education, but it just about stops there. First of all, the decision-making core of the Party which decided on this is not democratically elected, that's why some policies notably go against the local culture, which is racist. Second, the diploma for foreigners entering through the alternative application is different from locals which passed through Gaokao, it also holds different weight, unlike US diplomas which are the same for both foreign students and locals. Third, if you see ease of receiving higher education as special treatment, there are disadvantages to foreigners as well, many administration fees are higher, IIRC the tax structure is also different. And of course, it's near impossible for a foreigner to attain citizenship in China.Regarding ethnic issues, the examples from centuries ago were merely directed at that insane Soviet as he kept bringing centuries old history up. Currently, Policy-wise minorities are at a significant advantage, clearly the Party's bribe to keep them loyal. I know many Han are discontent about the special treatment minorities get, just as people on rural Hukou are discontent about certain policies leaning toward people with urban Hukou. Otherwise the only significant racial tension left in China should be between Muslims and Han, a significant proportion of both view the other side negatively, and physical conflict is not uncommon.
wilsonkf - Sunday, May 19, 2019 - link
US government is really gracious to Huawei as they keep claiming Huawai is a security threat but also keep the evidences as the highest secret - not even wikileak can access it unlike NSA.s.yu - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
They don't have to, they already published the detailed report about Huawei selling US tech to Iran under a shell which the Chinese never properly disputed with any counterevidence, and that's reason enough for Huawei to make the list. By that point whether to list them was already the discretion of the US.s.yu - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
I realize the reason for some people saying this is that they haven't read the press release. Go read this now:https://www.commerce.gov/news/press-releases/2019/...
wilsonkf - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
The ban to Iran is violated by many US and Europe companies. Or have you checked Irangate? Can I call Whitehouse and Israel a security threat because they secretly delivered weapon to Iran during Iran - Iraqi war?It is kind of double standard to say Huawai is a security threat only because it has some business relations with Iran. A normal person would expect security flaws or loopholes intentionally added by the company to their products if it is called a security threat.
Sure US government can do whatever they see fit. But evidence?
s.yu - Tuesday, May 21, 2019 - link
“It is kind of double standard to say Huawai is a security threat only because it has some business relations with Iran”Yes, and double standards are widely practiced around the world. Your law gives you an excuse to act but that doesn't mean enforcement is non-conditional. China accuses the US of obstructing free trade, but China itself has always been obstructing free trade. Its trade barriers have been in place since (and for some, before) it joined the WTO and people hardly pay attention anymore, for most locals, they've truly been brainwashed into thinking China promotes free trade while the US is "picking on a mere private business". Reverse the trade policies between the US and China and see China's economy collapse overnight, the barriers won't do the US much good in the short term but may eventually revive the industry sector.
s.yu - Tuesday, May 21, 2019 - link
"A normal person would expect security flaws or loopholes intentionally added by the company to their products if it is called a security threat."In Vodafone's case (go read it) they found and reported a vulnerability to Huawei, Huawei promptly told them it's been fixed, then they tested it again and found that it was still open with a little cover-up, and finally Huawei refused to fix it stating it would affect the "quality" of the firmware. Tell me that's not intentional.
Ironically Vodafone still intends to use Huawei because they're cheap, a prime example of the west surrendering autonomy to China from financial issues.
damianrobertjones - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
What is it with the latest 'trend' of zero capitals?Gasaraki88 - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
Why don't you ask the other countries in Europe?https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-30...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2019/05/16/...
ZolaIII - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
Well Germany did found back doors but not in Huawei network equipment but Cisco's. Qualcomm property modem RTOS is closed source with exploits and backdoor's, same can be said for Intels security co processors. Let's ban all of them then.Notmyusualid - Tuesday, May 21, 2019 - link
@ Zolall - finally, you come out with something partly true. Cisco was found to have backdoors installed, but I believe it was the Russians, not the Germans that discovered them.I don't know if this was specific to a certain IOS release for Russia, as its unlikely to be found in home-nets thats for sure. But Cisco stopped their games, and Huawei etc will never, given the communist gov they have.
croc - Tuesday, May 21, 2019 - link
"The Truth? You can't HANDLE the truth!"The TRUTH is that the US government is finally trying to lock the doors after all the carrier pigeons have already flown the coop.... Or, to put it in simple terms, Greed. US near-sighted stockholders want money. Cheapest way for US firms to deliver to the stockholders is to go with the cheapest qualified labor they can find. China. Now, you don't need a crystal ball to look backwards, do you? By giving the Chinese access to the latest technology, are you surprisedthat they use that technology and actually IMPROVE it? Or, that they use it for themselves and actually COMPETE? Do you think that the USA is actually above this kind of behavior? Remember Rubbermaid? The Waltons insisted that they get their products made in China so that Walmart could get better discounts on their products. So, to paraphrase Will Shakspere, the US has been hoist on its own petard called GREED.
The TRUTH? You, sir, can't HANDLE the truth.
wolrah - Sunday, May 19, 2019 - link
So...what does this mean for owners of existing Huawei Android devices? I have their first WearOS watch and a friend of mine has a Nexus 6P. Are we SOL on future updates beyond the basic AOSP core?SirPerro - Sunday, May 19, 2019 - link
Well both devices won't get updates anyway.But recent phones... That's gonna be interesting. Theoretically Huawei can patch the kernel vulnerabilities just fine, and even upgrade the android version while keeping "what's there already" WRT Google play. But wouldn't bet my money on that.
wolrah - Sunday, May 19, 2019 - link
@SirPerro Neither device receives new major revisions of Android, but both are still receiving patches and sometimes even new features, or at least were until now.While mine doesn't have it yet, there are HWatch1s that have received the new "Tiles" update to WearOS.
leexgx - Sunday, May 19, 2019 - link
this only affects New uncertified phones after this ban (currant phones are unaffected) not sure how it would prevent , this could be a big problem for the Mate 30 pro later on this year or they could just load google play still it just be uncertified versionid4andrei - Sunday, May 19, 2019 - link
This basically kills all Huawei smartphones for the rest of the world. Currently they all rely on Google services just like all international versions of Chinese smartphones.It's a shame for the smartphones, that weren't mired in controversy, to suffer. Blatant protectionist measure.
leexgx - Sunday, May 19, 2019 - link
it only kill future phones that require certifying (like mate 30 pro)s.yu - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
You realize China blocked Qualcomm's merger with NXP out of spite? Do you know many forms of direct investment to China are banned and only joint ventures (with local funding) instead are allowed? Do you know how high China's customs rates are?"protectionist measure"? China *is the protectionist* if there ever is one.
Notmyusualid - Tuesday, May 21, 2019 - link
@ s.yu - again, 10/10.s.yu - Wednesday, May 22, 2019 - link
@Notmyusualid Wow, thanks. Good luck in China!basroil - Sunday, May 19, 2019 - link
Correction, they would lose all google business INCLUDING OPEN SOURCE. If the code is on US servers or owned by a US company, even if it's royalty free, it would be part of any blacklisting!invinciblegod - Sunday, May 19, 2019 - link
How so? Who would regulate it? Cant they just download it anyways?basroil - Sunday, May 19, 2019 - link
Under US law Google would be required to prevent their IP from being used by blacklisted companies to a reasonable degree, especially if it uses encryption (even if they don't own the encryption part)Notmyusualid - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
@ basriol - man you are way off the deep end.You can download Android is SO many places.
peevee - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
Free software (which many mistakenly call "open source") is not IP, as property rights are specifically do not apply according to the licenses.DanNeely - Sunday, May 19, 2019 - link
It's open source. Google can't say you're not allowed to download/use it to anyone. That's the entire point of it being foss. Google can stop talking to Huawei about it. Google can stop accepting Pull Requests/etc from Huawei. But Google/etc can't stop publishing updated AOSP code any time the release a new device. And once the code is out in public Huawei is as free to download and do WTH they want with it as anyone else.basroil - Sunday, May 19, 2019 - link
"Open source" is not the same as no copyright or patent free. Most open source has the copyright retained by the original entity, and that's how they enforce that open source status (in GNU case, they actually sue people for copyright infringement for not releasing code). For patents it's pretty much the same thing, where the entity owns the patent but doesn't require royalties for authorized use.Because of import/export laws in the US though, simply letting them download code from any Google (or other company with US presence ) server would be enough to trigger export compliance violations (since android has encryption built in)
misc - Sunday, May 19, 2019 - link
Do you really think Huawei is banned from accessing the Linux kernel source code now? Or any other GPL software?Lord of the Bored - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
Or that they would obey any such ban were it imposed?I mean, let's be honest. No one in China gives a flying crap if you're breaking any license, and Huawei can find several ways to get around any probable attempt at blocking them from most source repositories.
ZolaIII - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
All licences begin with statement that code is open & freely available.maatriks - Sunday, May 19, 2019 - link
So the result might be that Huawei brings its own store to Europe which is full of Chinese-made applications with who knows what security and/or backdoors?Great idea!
jrs77 - Sunday, May 19, 2019 - link
And so it begins what I've been trying to tell people for years allready.The US or better said the US-companies hold 95% of all soft- and hardware-patents in the IT-sector. No computer in the world runs without intel, AMD, ARM, nVidia, Apple, Microsoft or Google.
The US knows this, and is starting right here, right now to pressure foreign companies or countries into submission in an effort to make them do what the US wants.
It's the beginning of the end of an empire, which will use every option to hold on to it's power.
maatriks - Sunday, May 19, 2019 - link
How many of those chips are made outside of US though? Especially the top of the line 10nm, 7nm etc chips. In addition,Samsung and Huawei have their own silicon divisions, Huawei flagship devices run on their own silicone and they make their own modems.jospoortvliet - Sunday, May 19, 2019 - link
Plus, ARM is British, the chip machines used by all these vendors are Dutch so it isn't 100% US. But it is a lot yes.phoenix_rizzen - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
ARM is no longer British, they were bought by SoftBank back in 2016. They're still headquartered in the UK, but they're technically a Japanese company now.ABR - Sunday, May 19, 2019 - link
In addition to ARM designs China has designed their own CPUs for their last supercomputer, albeit based on DEC Alpha designs, and they run a homegrown OS and kernel on it as well. This move by the US is a two-edged one and will accelerate China's own technology development efforts rather than dampen them.khanikun - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
China has been trying to make procs for a long time. There's the Zhaoxin cpu by VIA, which bought up Cyrix and Centaur. They're x86 compatible procs for China government use.ZolaIII - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
Roughly at least 40% made in: Taiwan, Corea, Israel.ZolaIII - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
Neither is the Softbank nor ARM whose US company. There also the open source hardware today as RISCV...pugster - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
About ARM. Huawei can license their ARM technology from Hon An, which is an joint venture with Chinese companies and ARM.https://www.reuters.com/article/us-softbank-group-...
Although Huawei can no longer receive updates from google about their latest version of Android OS, they can use an existing open version Android and adopt it as their own. Huawei already has a plan B, developing their own OS which is HongMeng OS, which is a fork of Android OS much like how Amazon developed their own version of Fire OS.
peevee - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
I see a lot of Chinese propagandists on the assault.Notmyusualid - Tuesday, May 21, 2019 - link
...right.Its not much different when you are actually there.
Notmyusualid - Tuesday, May 21, 2019 - link
@ jrs77 - yes, the US wants to tell them what to do.They want them to respect intelluctual property, stop hacking corporations, have fair trade between them, and so on.
Hardly a big ask, is it?
Roland00Address - Sunday, May 19, 2019 - link
So when will my Huawei tablet no longer allow me to use Google Play Store Apps from 3rd parties?PixyMisa - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
It won't. For existing devices this just means no more Android updates.Calabros - Sunday, May 19, 2019 - link
China will have the right to spy and dominate the world, but they need to bend the knee. Respect the rules, and then do whatever you like to do.Lord of the Bored - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
'S right! They have to pay tribute!webdoctors - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
Huawei doesn't even let you unlock the bootloader so you can't even load your own ROMs if the official ones are locked out. Its like they purposely shoot themselves in the foot.s.yu - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
Actually >90% of users probably won't even flash another ROM even if it's unlocked in the first place, so that's a puny caliber shot in the foot.[email protected] - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
The USA, in all it's hypocrisy needs to re-think a bit what they are doing. A very large percentage of technology is manufactured in China. They have the production know how and -capacity. The USA for sure no longer has that right now. This could seriously backfire if the Chinese suddenly decide no longer to deliver phones/tablets/motherboards/switches/chipsets/etc..., that are being produced largely in China & Taiwan, to the USA. All this posturing and taxing could lead to a point where even China would say: we don't care about the US market anymore. China has a large enough market in the rest of the world, not to mention China itself. Trump is acting like an 8 year old bully who doesn't get what he wants. This could all return like a boomerang into the US's face - and it won't be Trump eating the beans for it, it will be the US citizens! In the mean time, the Russians are having a good laugh about all this posturing and will take advantage of the situation. Besides: they are accusing Huawei of spying? What the hell does the US do? Let's not be naïve. Anybody ever heard of patriot act? I wouldn't be surprised the NSA, CIA, FBI are responsible for more backdoors and spying than the Chinese are.Vitor - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
You know Taiwan is an independent country, right? As much as the commies from mainland China hate that fact.s.yu - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
"The USA, in all it's hypocrisy"?China's GDP by PPP is higher than the US, its authoritarian government is very wealthy through high taxes, it has had a high customs barrier before and after it joined the WTO, and actively throws money behind many local companies giving them unfair advantage in global competition, and when Huawei (which enjoys unlimited debts from one of China's policy banks, among other government subsidies) gets banned they whine about obstruction of free trade.
WOFE?
[email protected] - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
I know Taiwan is officially an "independent country", but unfortunately not 100% so - even if I and they would absolutely like that. I know Foxconn is a very large company - but much of its manufacturing capacity is currently still concentrated in China, even when they invested in Winconsin - that plant isn't ready for mass production yet. Just my 2 cents : Trump is alienating a lot of people at the moment and it will NOT be good for the US citizens if he continues this way. I'm not writing anything about China and it's authoritarian regime being a "good" thing. It's not like I even want to be positive about that. The only thing I'm stating is that the US needs to keep mind that - at the moment - they most likely do NOT have the know how and production capacity/knowledge anymore and they are really very dependent of China and Taiwan right now. In that position I wouldn't be storming around like an elephant in a porcelain store breaking whatever improvement of relations there is/was with such a big nation who would really be just as capable to say at some point: frell off, we can do without the US.s.yu - Tuesday, May 21, 2019 - link
I agree that it's really, really helped China play the victim here, both domestically and internationally, but currently China's export-oriented economy doesn't allow it to decouple from the US.Yojimbo - Wednesday, May 22, 2019 - link
David, do you think China is going to voluntarily not ship their products to the US? And if they don't have access to American technology products much of their own technology industry gets stuck in the mud, so it's not a game they would want to play even if they were willing to forgo the $500 billion a year in sales.In any case, it's been China that has been alienating people. They used carrots and sticks to buy off the CEOs and other wealthy elites while the rest of Americans were taken advantage of, but even those CEOs are now getting fed up because the promises made were never kept and all they see now is competition from protected Chinese companies with the technology they provided and still no true access to the markets they salivated over. At this moment, China are the ones that can't do without the US. Prices will certainly go up for the US, and the rest of the world, without China. But there are things that China needs that they cannot get without American companies.
Also, I know the CIA lies a lot, but don't dismiss the real possibility of security issues with Huawei equipment. Frankly, it's foolish for anyone to put such equipment in their infrastructure when the company is state owned and must answer to the CCP, an authoritarian regime. The only reason that it's passed so far is because people's greed has got the best of them.
s.yu - Wednesday, May 22, 2019 - link
Technically Huawei's private, but they're probably the "private" company most tied to the Party on this planet. In China, ownership status doesn't matter in the way it does in the rest of the world, because laws and policies are more flexible which enables the Party to enact its will very effectively. If your services are needed, there's no way to say no, not to mention Huawei had close ties to the Party from the very beginning and has always been very loyal to the Party.Yojimbo - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
Wikipedia says the shares are held by a trade union committee that is representative of the employees. But those shares are nontradable, have no voting rights - except to select from among pre-selected candidates for a "Representatives' Commission", which I am guessing has little power anyway - and must be relinquished upon dismissal (and I presume death) of an employee. This makes it sound to me like some sort of way to hand out yearly bonuses through "dividends" and service bonuses payable upon retirement while simultaneously allowing the claim to be made that it is employee owned, no matter how ridiculous that claim seems to be if the details on Wikipedia are accurate. In any case, the employees do not have any rights or powers that would be consistent with the usual definition of "ownership". It doesn't even sound like the shares are in any way indicative of the value of the company. How could it be? If 99% of the shares are held thus where would they get the money to pay for employee turnover if the share values accurately represented the value of the company? New employees would need to buy into the company with their own money for it to make any sense. In any case, I don't see any way for any other entity to invest in the company. But surely someone must be in charge to allow it to happen. The employees representative commission? And who pre-selects and controls that commission? So then who does own it? Who has the actual rights and powers? I think we know the answer.Yojimbo - Wednesday, May 22, 2019 - link
They demand to have "equal footing" in trade negotiations. I guess that means the right to take advantage of someone without being told they must stop by the party they are taking advantage of. At the same time they demand to be considered a developing nation by the WTO so they have access to special loans, then loan out money to other countries, including developed countries like Italy, for infrastructure investment. It's called gaming the system and it's great as long as everyone lets you get away with it.HardwareDufus - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
We have 3 Huawei Mate 10 LItes in our family. They are Dual Sim. 1 sim for Cricket/AT&T (USA) and 1 sim for Telcel (Mexico). I spend about 6 months in Mexico each year and when in the USA I live 30 minutes from the border and cross often (affordable dental and great Pozole in Mexico). I have a Sentry Pass so crossing is minutes. So, when I'm in Mexico, I'll just move the Telcel to Sim1 (faster 4G) and Cricket/AT&T to Sim2 and get my updates.That said, my phone received an update here in the USA on Saturday.
willis936 - Monday, May 20, 2019 - link
I work at a test house. The lab director sent out an email that was in legalese saying to halt testing of Huawei devices while this is in effect.eastcoast_pete - Tuesday, May 21, 2019 - link
I suspect that one reason why Google didn't put up a big fight when ordered to stop supplying Huawei with its software is that it didn't have that much to loose. Not that long ago, the Chinese government's insistence to tightly control internet searches led to Google leaving the Chinese search market, so they don't have that much at stake now. That's one of the big upsides of reasonably free international trade: hitting another country also hurts your own country's businesses.Yojimbo - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
The measure is strongly supported by both Congress and the Executive Branch and by both major political parties. It is supported by accusations of national security concerns by US intelligence agencies and it comes via a declared national emergency. I imagine if Google were to try to put up a fight against such a thing they would comply first, and then try to lobby behind closed doors.lejeczek - Thursday, May 23, 2019 - link
SwitfKey keyboard - can anybody rid of if it on Huawei smart phones and put back original Google's keyboard?It always felt to me like overaggressive to force users to this software while not allowing users to remove it. Sometimes I think that Chinese(some) are not just crazy about spying and stealing but also are simply dumb - for how do they not realize that pushing & pressing people can only backfire.