**Microsoft removed the in-built HEVC decoding capabilities of Windows 10 in the 2017 Fall Creators Update, and replaced it with an extension that had to be downloaded from the Microsoft Store. Without the extension, playback is restricted to 1080p non-HDR streams encoded in H.264. In addition to the decoding capabilities, the system also needs to support PlayReady 3.0 DRM.** ______________________________________
This doesn't come with an OS, so if you hate Microsoft so much, then don't use Windows. As far as DRM goes, support for it is a necessary evil to avoid being sued. So it's not a "borking by Wintel", its a symptom of our lawsuit happy society + rampant piracy that the owners of intellectual property feel they must defend themselves against.
Wow, talk about buying MS' spin. Amazing how people are so happy to throw away their freedoms. In reality the blatant abuse of consumer IP rights is far more important but rarely addressed.
Interesting perspective. Intellectual property is not defined anywhere. It is a made up term assigned to copyrighted material and patents. If you live in the U.S. these are protected by Article 1, Section 8, Clause 8 of the Constitution:
“To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries.”
The "right" to IP is only guaranteed for a limited time. When this time expires, the "right" no longer exists and it becomes public domain.
In fact, the reason these legal definitions exist is because copyright material and patents are not property, but rather the expression of ideas and thoughts through various forms of media (i.e. verbal, visual, etc).
Because expressions are not property, a legal construct was created in order for "expressionists" to protect their ability to "make money", since once they expressed themselves, the expression is no longer their own, and the ability to profit was no longer in their control.
I was also a nerd in the 80's (and still today) and have never thought it was cool to steal others' creations. If you do that on a large enough scale then there's no incentive left for creative types to create, and what a unhappy world that would be to create.
Some more power consumption numbers: (A300 vs. A310)
Idle power: 81% Max power consumption (stressing CPU+GPU): 131%.
But this gives us:
- Gaming performance: no numbers for the A310, however the A300 has an average gaming performance of 204 % vs. Bean Canyon (using the fps shown as default) at 126 of its power consumption, so again it is more power efficient.
Cinebench Muti-threaded rendering: 137% of he A310's performance @ (using the max power consumption as a guideline) 131% of the power consumption.
Note: It would be nice to show the power consumption for all benchmarks, i.e. gaming, 7-zip, cinebench....
I was thinking along this lines, thanks for doing the math. It seems the A300 is basically always more power efficient.
Especially given that machines like this will spend a lot of time at or near idle. If the light load scenario comes close to the 81% power usage, in the long run this could save quite a bit of power.
So you guys are reaching a different conclusion than what the article stated in terms of efficiency?
In the conclusions paragraph it stated that this machine is "not particularly energy efficent."
I also glanced at the numbers initially and was confused as to how they reached that conclusion but didn't do math. Why did the author use that language?
The language you refer to is the author comparing it to the Intel Mini-PC competitors, and not just the other ASRock DeskMini. Commenters Irata and Mil0 above were comparing DeskMini A300 vs DeskMini A310.
That is correct, although in the case of gaming results, I had to compare it to another system since there was no data for the A310.
The thought was, how does the performance delta align with the power consumption delta. Now it seems that Ganesh disagrees as I am using linear values but imho this approach seems valid to me as well.
So if it has 10% less performance but uses 10% less power, at least for me the energy efficieny is identical. Same if it has 10% more performance but uses 10% more power.
"For traditional office and business workloads, it gets the job done; and while it's not particularly energy efficient, the upfront cost itself is lower".
Looking at the Bapco Sysmark overall power consumption numbers, the DeskMini A300 and 310 have basically identical numbers (32.26 vs. 31.62 Wh). Seeing the the performance delta is not considerable I find this statement a bit odd. And these are Bapco Sysmark numbers which need to be taken with a rock of salt.
To be more specific, on the "productivity benchmark", the A300 has 89% of the A310's score with 86% of its power consumption, so for office type tasks, it is actually a bit more efficient.
Ah, the pitfalls of saying ProdA scores X% of ProdB in metric M at Y% in metric N, when M and N are not linearly correlated!
Extending it the same way, if I were to build the DeskMini 310 system with the same original review components at the current prices, I am going to splurge : 162 (DeskMini 310 board with Wi-Fi compared to DeskMini A300 without Wi-Fi) + 139 (Core i3-8100) + 76 (DDR4-2400 2x8GB SODIMM) + 78 (PCIe 3.0 x4 240GB NVMe SSD - Corsair Force MP510) = $455 ; Let me look up the table for the DeskMini A300 cost without Wi-Fi - tada, it is $465 - oh oh oh!!!! Does the lower upfront cost for the AMD system (as claimed in the article in the same BAPCo section) evaporate into thin air? No!
The reason is that when you are looking at SYSmark 2018 scores and SYSmark 2018 energy consumption numbers, you compare against systems that score approximately the same in those particular metrics.
For the overall SYSmark 2018 scores, the DeskMini A300 is approximately the same as the Baby Canyon NUC - then, let us look at the energy consumption numbers for those two - the Baby Canyon consumes lesser energy.
For the energy consumption numbers, the A300 and 310 are approximately in the same ball park - and there, you see the the 310 with a higher score.
As for accusations that 'Intel CAN"T be shown in anything other than their best light' - take a chill pill - the PCMark 8 numbers back up SYSmark 2018. And, in the gaming section, we show that AMD outperforms the best that Intel can offer. As an impartial reviewer, my aim is to present the facts as-is and provide my analysis - if you come with pre-conceived notions that one product / vendor is better than the other, then, no amount of facts will convince you otherwise.
Replying to two different comments with one reply is a bit unfortunate as another poster made the "Intel can't be shown in..." comment.
As for the price, if you check Newegg, the $150 A300 does include a Wifi kit. Looking at Newegg prices, I get the following:
Desk Mini 300: $150 Desk Mini 310: $168 Ryzen 2400G: $150 Core i3-8100: $142 Memory: 100 (for the AMD system) vs. 80 (for the Intel based one) note: I had a hard time finding the exact memory so I was looking at Team Group memory with roughly the same specs WDS500G1B0C: $78 Corsair FORCE MP500: $130
When possible, in stock retail items with free shipping were chosen.
This gives me a total of $ 478 for the Desk Mini 300 (including WiFi) and $ 520 for the 310. But calling the price even would be OK, considering how prices can fluctuate.
Second reply as I wanted to keep things separately.
As I stated below, the comment regarding Intel having to be shown in the best light was made by another poster. Why could (she) have said this ?
For one, Intel is a client of your parent company Purch. They even mention this on their web site under "experience", stating "We’re focused on serving our action-oriented audience, as well as elevating the sponsor’s brand with that audience. We tailor the Native content that runs across our sites to better suit each environment, while keeping the integrity of the sponsor’s original content and brand."
In addition, you are using Bapco Sysmark, a benchmark that - given this "organization's" history - leaves a rather bad taste.
Now, I am not attacking your personal or journalistic integrity, however you must admit that the though AT may not be impartial does cross ones mind.
And this does not have to be overly obvious shilling (as that would be counter productive), but can be small nuances or tones, stressing one thing while leaving out another.
Do I have a pre-concieved notion of which one is better ?
Besides seeing the Intel iGPU as inferior (with the exception of video encode / decode) not really, but I admit that I do not particularly like Intel as a company
"Now, I am not attacking your personal or journalistic integrity, however you must admit that the though AT may not be impartial does cross ones mind."
Above all else, I think people vastly overestimate both how much work vendors are willing to put in, and how much they actually care about AnandTech. Being underhanded is a lot of work, especially for as small an audience as AnandTech has.
To be sure, there is a significant editorial firewall up between ad sales and editorial. I honestly couldn't even tell you about our (former) publisher's comments, because none of that ever involved AnandTech. It was probably a campaign that ran on Tom's Guide or such.
But regardless, we don't do shenanigans, and I won't stand for them. Vendors don't get to see articles early, we don't let vendors buy preferential treatment, and any sponsored content is going to be very clearly labeled as such. All AnandTech has its its honesty; so to sacrifice that would cost us everything.
Which, to loop back to the discussion of Sysmark, Ganesh uses it as part of his mini-PC evaluations. It's a pretty useful benchmark, especially for the energy efficiency metrics. It works well for what Ganesh needs, and the workloads seem reasonable. At the same time we're well-aware of the controversy surrounding it, and we'd never trust a single benchmark for a review - and certainly not Sysmark. Which is why we run many benchmarks, to look at different workloads and get different points of view on performance.
I have one of these, and really like it. My problem is I bought this to replace an older NUC, and the older NUC runs Windows 8.1. I use the older NUC for WMC. Obviously the DeskMini doesn't support 8.1, but I thought I could get it to run 7. I can't. I noticed that ASRock has a utility for installing Windows 7 on AM4 motherboards, and I was given the impression that ASRock would update the DeskMini BIOS so I could install Windows 7. Then I found out the 2400G is only Windows 10 compatible. I don't know how I missed that when I did my research... So, my son gets nice little PC to replace his older one. This is a nice little setup, I just wish Windows 10 had something even 80 percent as good as WMC.
We get by with Emby Server on a Dell PowerEdge tower server, and a Roku Ultra for the TV. It's not as ideal as having it all in one box, but it allows for more flexibility in storage as well as media sources (besides Emby, the Roku has hundreds of streaming channels). In the past we used a Mac mini but it was simply too limited in storage options.
I was a long time WMC user myself. Once you get into Kodi + Tvheadend you will never look back to WMC. LibreELEC is a great Linux Distro for Kodi. Just try it!
Seems like a nice little box. I'm not a fan of the design. The front of the case is downright unappealing, but for the price point its hitting, that's at best a minor detraction. Who looks at their PC anyhow?
I think it looks OK for an office-type PC. If I hadn't already built my dad an ITX 2200G cube last year, I would probably buy this. It would get tucked out of sight anyway. $150 for the chassis, board, 120W brick PSU? Not bad, especially given it doesn't exactly have a craptop of AM4 competition - at least not at present.
The 3200G/3400G APUs are basically tweaked Zen+ models. Although, that's not a bad thing if you're building one of these SFF PCs... rumors are a couple hundred more MHz, better GPU clocks, overclocks better, and lower TDP (at least at stock settings).
Welcome to USB-C, the standard that comes with almost nothing standard and almost everything you can think of optional. :P Could be anything, but I suspect notashill is right.
If they have PCI-E x4 available for a LAN MAC/PHY, and they're only using x1 on a cheapo RealTek, why not give us a "A300 Premium" edition, with an x4 10GbE (like their TaiChi Ultimate board), or at the very least, a 2.5GbE (using the newest RealTek NICs), like their Intel Phantom Gaming boards.
Realistically, these A300 DeskMini units are going to be in use for quite some time (and no way to plug in an expansion NIC*), and the time is ripe, for us to get better than 1GbE NICs these days.
(*) Club3D has announced USB3.0/3.1 Gen1 external NICs, with RealTek 2.5GbE chips inside them. I also await them, I suppose one could sacrifice a USB3 port on the A300 for one of those.
Or an M.2 slot? They seem to have forgotten that slots were for extensibility and I would very much like the ability to upgrade to an NBase-T via an M.2 card (unless included)... They have lots of creative solutions for servers...
Unfortunately I see only confusion ahead: With USB4 and x0-Gbit Ethernet, bandwidth won't be an issue, but latency, interoperability and turf wars might last forever.
It does so it's a nice option for iGPU gaming. However Bean Canyon and other Iris parts are at a notable TDP disadvantage. I doubt the extra headroom would make up much of the difference, but if the Iris parts had additional power and cooling to put them on an even footing, I don't believe the advantage would be as significant. Despite that, I do like Ryzen and think its a worthwhile trade-off to make for a gaming use case.
So I thought, too. But then I looked at the power figures idle and max at the wall plug: Much less actual difference than 15/65 Watt would make you believe.
It's an AM4 barebones. The 3000 CPUs are Zen 2, but the 3200G/3400G APUs are just tweaked Zen+ based models, 12nm but (similar to RX 590) probably not a true dieshrink. I'm not even sure if you'd need a newer-than-current BIOS update for them to boot (though it would be recommended regardless). At any rate that's all that you might need, a BIOS update.
Yeah I agree - idle power usage of 11.24 watts for this DeckMini A300 vs the 8.45 watts of the NUC8i7BEH with Bean Canyon. That's a difference of only 2.8 watts!
Question/Showing my ignorance of the capabilities of the chipset here: so, with this setup, is it possible to fine-tune the 2400G's CPU and GPU (undervolting, adjusting the frequency)? It sounds as if none of that would be possible, but again, I have no experience with this chipset and MoBo.
Now that "integrated graphics" are starting to reach actually-usable levels, I'd like to see VR added to these SFF reviews. We keep the Oculus Rift in the living room, but have to bring the "gaming PC" out every time we want to use it. I'd love to get a small "capable enough for basic VR games" PC to just live in the living room to run the Oculus.
Relatedly, it mentions the DP, HDMI, and VGA ports - but does the front panel USB-C port allow video output via DisplayPort Alternate Mode? If it can play basic VR games acceptably (BeatSaber is the big one,) I'd rather use the front-panel USB-C with one of Accell's USB-C VR adapters.
It's "usable" up to 1080p on a single screen. Most VR systems use resolutions higher than this, one in each eye, and require twice the frame rates offered here. Don't get me wrong: I want this too, but if top-end Navi-based APUs *doubled* performance they'd still struggle, and they're a year away. Maybe if we had a dual-APU system? (Man, now I'm imagining this for a console.)
I have the Intel 310 version of the Desk Mini. I think on your review it is too technical while not stressing the ease at which a 2.5 SSD can be installed. The Data/power connectors on the back of the motherboard make it fairly easy and with not much cable clutter. However, I found the cables were easier to connect if you remove the motherboard first. Since some people may want to use a 2.5 SSD, you should have tested that. I wish a similar design was available in Mini-ITX. However, it seems unavailable on the consumer level for the most modern CPU's like the one used in this review.
I completely agree. I don't think it was mentioned anywhere in the review that you can add a 2.5" drive - and you can actually add 2 x 2.5" drives according to the ASRock specs page. That sets it apart from other mini PCs significantly. Most only support 1 x 2.5" drive, or the thin NUCs don't support any. That gives you some solid storage options. You can actually forgo the media server and have both ends of the HTPC in one compact box (front-end with all streaming options, and the file storage for local media).
I picked up two for my kids, with 2400Gs. Can’t beat the price. I have them mounted to the backs of their monitors which makes for a compact powerful all in one.
I’ve got Ubuntu 19.04 on them and they run Dota2 like butter. Better than my 2018 MacBook Pro with discrete Radeon 560x.
My only ask might be two more rear USB ports, but it hasn’t been an issue so far.
Or just add a low profile Noctua cooler, it's dead silent even under full load, and you won't ever see (nowhere near) 80 degrees celsius as with the stock cooler! https://noctua.at/en/nh-l9a-am4
The stock cooler is adequate for a 35watts athlon 200ge, but I'd avoid those high temps with 65W APUs we see here. I don't understand why not to mod the Wraith cooler as you chose to, as it's delivered with the processor, or else take an aftermarket low profile cooler (the Noctua looks like it was designed around this A300 motherboard).
But surprisingly little relative change (relative to publicity...) from the previous (major) iteration, which I interpret as the Kaveri vs. Skylake Iris Plus that I own and tested, A10-7850k vs. i5-6267U.
Intel still seems to never use more than 15Watts for the CPU, yet manages scaling single to 4GHz at great IPC while it manages to sustain admirable Hertz even at multi-core constant loads, taking a nice sip of cool on every little stall. AMD seems to retain a much more linear efficiency curve where clocks and cores just eat power, while the difference at the wall plug is much smaller in this iteration (was 3:1 for exactly the same performance on my old systems).
The good thing is that on a device like this, peak power is much less important than on a notebook, so it’s ok, as long as maintains quiet on constant peak and (finally) reaches acceptable idle: Here I see a lot of progress on AMD's side, Intel has much less room to beat itself.
For graphics, bandwidth is so crucial and I wonder what the AMD could do with a bit of eDRAM, HBM or even a lower-power variant of GDDR5… but I guess the latency issues could kill browser performance and that is unfortunately a large chunk of what buyers would want these for…
Still dreaming of a way to put well-proportioned APUs in a scalable system with 1x/2x/4x configs… With storage and RAM no longer eating box space, 75/150/300 Watt configs could be relatively small yet remain quiet.
Speaking of idle power and quiet, this is where I get interested in the AMD. The NUC is great in everything but noise on peak load, but it would really only take a replacement top and a Noctua to make it great… There is so much space behind these giant 4k screens, nuc/NUC can become a little pointless.
Good Linux support is where I am getting concerned. Current reports praise AMD on their Linux vision… but progress seems a very different story and one where Intel (sorry Charly), really shines, even Nvidia seems better in practical terms (sorry Linus). I’m also somewhat disheartened by power management there: Not sure I’ll be able to reach 10 Watt of idle on CentOS or Ubuntu *and* Steam/Vulkan performance comparable to Windows (it’s actually gotten quite good on bigger Nvidia GPUs, even GPU pass-through to a Windows VM is kind of fun).
As I mentioned probably as you were typing this, I ran Ubuntu straight out of the box and am getting nearly 50% better FPS than this review on Dota 2. Full vulkan support and max settings. Pleasantly surprised, I am used to having to tinker with drivers.
Notably, I don’t think this would have been possible 8 months ago as only newer kernels have the good AMD support built in.
This is not exactly a fair comparison. You are comparing a desktop AMD chip with and a mobile Intel chip. Its kind of like comparing an i3 8100 vs a Ryzen 5 3500u. AMD's Ryzen 5 3550H and Ryzen 7 3750H would have been more competitive. These chips are about as fast as the 2400G, but with an maximum TDP of 35w. There are some reviews on Notebookcheck and these chips are consuming just over 70w underload. This is with a 15.6 1080P screen and a power hungry Radeon RX 560X. The power consumption and battery life is actually better than an i5 8300H and 1050 combo with an identical. Check out the review below.
The truth is the onboard Vega on Ryzen is a very powerful iGPU held back by memory bandwidth. Unrestrained, its probably 80-90% as powerful as an RX 460. It has 640-704 Vega cores which are clocked higher (1.2-1.4GHz) than the 896 cores in the RX 460. Vega's IPC should be a bit above Polaris's.
I agree with you Linux support is spotty, I am a Linux user myself and I am in the market for a new laptop, but I may have to buy Intel despite its weak iGPU. Unfortunately, you can't find anymore Iris powered laptops these days (outside the macbook pro). Also, even though its improved AMD's video decode/encode is not as efficient as Intel's. I am not even sure if Nvidia is as efficient as Intel in video playback. Having that said I would not trust Intel's UHD graphics powering a 4k monitor, which is what I am in the market for.
Does anyone know if you could get a 3rd party power supply that's more than 120w? I mean 150w might be good, if AMD releases 95W APUs in the future. A 120W PSU might limit CPUs abover 65W.
Yes, there are third party power bricks available that can supply more current. Just keep in mind that the power regulators on the motherboard may not be rated for that higher current and that you could shorten its life or run into stability issues if you attempted to use a more power hungry processor (assuming if the BIOS would even make it past POST with an unsupported processor).
Good luck buying one...Only EU retailers I could find seem to have sold out within hours. Still, will keep trying. As this is exactly the sort of SFF I've wanted since Ryzen APUs came out.
On Amazon and Newegg, Computer Upgrade King seems to have lot of ready-to-go models with the DeskMini A300 ; Eg: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9... (Just FYI - I have no idea about the reputation of this retailer. Just came up during my search on Google)
@ganeshts- Again, out of stock. Personally I think ASRock, Lenovo, HP, Zotac and everybody else that manufacturers SFF PCs have greatly underestimated the number of people looking to buy Ryzen APU based systems. And with the improved 3000 series (12nm Zen+ with soldered HS) soon available, the barebones will be even more sought after.
I'm just going to throw it as a suggestion. I understand the purpose and the rationale in comparing similarly priced models, and all relatively recent/available, however ... I think it would add an enormous value to "normal" users to be able to somewhat put things in perspective with slightly dated hardware.
I am not saying that we should be able to compare the Ryzen 5 2400G with an 80486, but, to give you an example, I have an A10-8700P and I have been considering an upgrade, but it seems really difficult to find a way to get an idea of just how much faster the 2400G is. The A10-8700P is certainly not efficient, but it does have 4 cores, and a decent iGPU, already based on the GCN. There's no question that the 2400G will trounce it in efficiency, but is it a worth upgrade?
It is just an example, to indicate that having also 2-3 previous generations in the comparisons would not be such a bad idea, in my opinion. Just a thought.
If you are looking for this type of comparison, planet3dnow de has one between an Athlon 5350 (Jaguar) vs Athlon 200GE. It's in German but maybe you can get useable results using Google translate.
They also did a review of the Hewlett-Packard 17-ca1004ng notebook with a Ryzen 5 3500U comparing it to its Bristol Ridge predecessor.
Ganesh, you didn't talk about noise at all. I feel like that should always be included in these mini PC articles. You have 3 pages on HTPC credentials and 1 page on Power Consumption and Thermal Performance but no mention of noise. How does it compare to the Intel NUC8i7BEH that you mentioned had a noisy fan with any load? Or the ZBOX CI660 which was fanless but had a dull whine and a strange grating sound though it wasn't noticeable beyond 10 feet? Did you think that optional CPU heatsink/fan they included was adequate?
By the way, 10 feet isn't close enough. How about 6 feet? If you give one noise impression from 10 feet, you could move a few feet closer and check what it is at 6 feet as well... for future reviews.
If you keep doing these Mini PC reviews, I will keep reading them!
I was also puzzled at the lack noise testing. One of the reasons I'm looking at mini-STX and thin mini-ITX systems instead of a NUC is because of the fan noise many of those NUC systems suffer from.
Some folks have been installing low-profile Noctua CPU coolers in their Deskmini systems and they report that they are "nearly silent", even while under heavy load. I'd really like to know how silent that really is.
I have a ryzen 2400g mini itx system with the flat noctua, and it is very silent, even under heavy load it is almost not hearable. I however had to add 2 smaller noctuas later in my system because the vrm would get rather hot with my standalone noctua and the case I was using. Still a very silent system and definitely less noise than a nuc.
At first I thought Bean Canyon was the best way to go for an HTPC with the performance and power efficiency. But with an idle power usage of 11.24 watts for this DeckMini A300 vs the 8.45 watts of the NUC8i7BEH with Bean Canyon - that difference is so little. As my HTPC, it would be left on and most of the time it would be idling. And the "as configured, no OS" prices in your reviews for these were $465 for the DeskMini A300 and $963 for the NUC8i7BEH...
Let's see, your DeskMini A300 had: G.Skill Ripjaws F4-3000C16D-16GRS 2x8 GB (newegg $100) Western Digital WD SN500 500 GB (newegg $70)
While your NUC8i7BEH had: G.Skill Ripjaws F4-3000C16D-32GRS 2x16 GB (newegg $185 - your review listed RipjawsV F4-3000C16-16GRS but I couldn't find that anywhere and the photos in your NUC8i7BEH review showed it was F4-3000C16D-32GRS instead so I think your specs table was incorrect) Western Digital WD Black 3D NVMe SSD (2018) 1 TB (newegg $238 for the SN750, older 2018 one costs more)
Let's see... that's $185-100=85 and $238-70=168. 85+168=253 So your combined storage and memory choices for the NUC8i7BEH cost $253 more.
And the difference in your overall "as configured, no OS" prices was $963-465=498.
So if I remove the difference in your storage and memory choices, I calculate that the DeskMini A300 is still $498-253 = $245 cheaper!
Sure the A300 doesn't look as nice or compact as the NUC, but that is some solid money.
The Intel models are usually configured with higher end components vs. the AMD based models. Same for laptops where $600 AMD based notebooks go up against $1,600 Intel ones .
I guess it's a hold over of the "AMD = budget" days.
True about the system. Memory was good, but the SSD was a slower one.
Basically, I would really like to see premium components being used in AMD based systems just like in Intel systems (or you could do it the other way around to reach the same price).
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I've searched the whole article for the word "Noise" and I couldn't find a single reference. :( On a HTPC perspective, noise can be a determining factor. How will it stack up when compared to Intel NUCs?
It’s very quiet while gaming, at least if you use the wraith cooler. Much quieter than any video card (aside from fabless ones of course. Not completely inaudible but quieter than my MacBook Pro.
Thank you! Now that is a good comparison. I'm guessing it's quiet enough for me and my 6 foot HTPC situation. How about when not gaming? Is playing Youtube or Netflix or something basically not noticeable at all?
Will the ASRock A300 be coming out with USB 3.1 Gen 2? Can this be a BIOS upgrade? or it a feature of the chipset? I assume you can use the Rizen 3900X processor.
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Thvash - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
For some reason 4K HDR, VP9 Profile 2 is not accelerated at all under Windows, while GPU claims to support it, no such issues under LinuxSmell This - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
**Microsoft removed the in-built HEVC decoding capabilities of Windows 10 in the 2017 Fall Creators Update, and replaced it with an extension that had to be downloaded from the Microsoft Store. Without the extension, playback is restricted to 1080p non-HDR streams encoded in H.264. In addition to the decoding capabilities, the system also needs to support PlayReady 3.0 DRM.**______________________________________
Ding!
Another drive-by DRM borking by WIntel ...
Ratman6161 - Monday, April 29, 2019 - link
This doesn't come with an OS, so if you hate Microsoft so much, then don't use Windows. As far as DRM goes, support for it is a necessary evil to avoid being sued. So it's not a "borking by Wintel", its a symptom of our lawsuit happy society + rampant piracy that the owners of intellectual property feel they must defend themselves against.mapesdhs - Thursday, May 2, 2019 - link
Wow, talk about buying MS' spin. Amazing how people are so happy to throw away their freedoms. In reality the blatant abuse of consumer IP rights is far more important but rarely addressed.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUAX0gnZ3Nw
peevee - Thursday, May 2, 2019 - link
"In reality the blatant abuse of consumer IP rights"You have NO rights to OTHER PEOPLE'S Property. Intellectual or not.
ripbeefbone - Thursday, May 2, 2019 - link
I miss the 90s when nerds weren't embarassing bootlickers who fawned over corporations. get a soul you shillspeevee - Monday, May 6, 2019 - link
I was the nerd in the 90s (and 80s) and still supported patents and copyrights. While violating some of them.airider - Thursday, May 2, 2019 - link
Interesting perspective. Intellectual property is not defined anywhere. It is a made up term assigned to copyrighted material and patents. If you live in the U.S. these are protected by Article 1, Section 8, Clause 8 of the Constitution:“To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries.”
The "right" to IP is only guaranteed for a limited time. When this time expires, the "right" no longer exists and it becomes public domain.
airider - Thursday, May 2, 2019 - link
In fact, the reason these legal definitions exist is because copyright material and patents are not property, but rather the expression of ideas and thoughts through various forms of media (i.e. verbal, visual, etc).Because expressions are not property, a legal construct was created in order for "expressionists" to protect their ability to "make money", since once they expressed themselves, the expression is no longer their own, and the ability to profit was no longer in their control.
sorten - Tuesday, May 21, 2019 - link
I was also a nerd in the 80's (and still today) and have never thought it was cool to steal others' creations. If you do that on a large enough scale then there's no incentive left for creative types to create, and what a unhappy world that would be to create.ganeshts - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
Actually, it is OK with Kodi (XBMC) and Microsoft Edge / VideoUI app on Windows. It is only VLC and LAV Video Decoder having issues.DigitalFreak - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
" The hardware itself is actually rather capable (as noted above), but the the current state of the Radeon drivers holds it back."Same old story that's been going on for a decade or more with ATI/AMD.
Irata - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
Some more power consumption numbers: (A300 vs. A310)Idle power: 81%
Max power consumption (stressing CPU+GPU): 131%.
But this gives us:
- Gaming performance: no numbers for the A310, however the A300 has an average gaming performance of 204 % vs. Bean Canyon (using the fps shown as default) at 126 of its power consumption, so again it is more power efficient.
Cinebench Muti-threaded rendering: 137% of he A310's performance @ (using the max power consumption as a guideline) 131% of the power consumption.
Note: It would be nice to show the power consumption for all benchmarks, i.e. gaming, 7-zip, cinebench....
Mil0 - Sunday, April 28, 2019 - link
I was thinking along this lines, thanks for doing the math. It seems the A300 is basically always more power efficient.Especially given that machines like this will spend a lot of time at or near idle. If the light load scenario comes close to the 81% power usage, in the long run this could save quite a bit of power.
niva - Monday, April 29, 2019 - link
So you guys are reaching a different conclusion than what the article stated in terms of efficiency?In the conclusions paragraph it stated that this machine is "not particularly energy efficent."
I also glanced at the numbers initially and was confused as to how they reached that conclusion but didn't do math. Why did the author use that language?
mikato - Tuesday, April 30, 2019 - link
The language you refer to is the author comparing it to the Intel Mini-PC competitors, and not just the other ASRock DeskMini. Commenters Irata and Mil0 above were comparing DeskMini A300 vs DeskMini A310.Irata - Wednesday, May 1, 2019 - link
That is correct, although in the case of gaming results, I had to compare it to another system since there was no data for the A310.The thought was, how does the performance delta align with the power consumption delta. Now it seems that Ganesh disagrees as I am using linear values but imho this approach seems valid to me as well.
So if it has 10% less performance but uses 10% less power, at least for me the energy efficieny is identical. Same if it has 10% more performance but uses 10% more power.
plonk420 - Saturday, May 4, 2019 - link
never had an issue with drivers on AMD except for an edge case: trying to install newer ones on Windows Server 2008 R2 Enterprise.sadly this might be an issue with the disconnect between OEM and AMD's drivers
Irata - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
I found this a bit odd:"For traditional office and business workloads, it gets the job done; and while it's not particularly energy efficient, the upfront cost itself is lower".
Looking at the Bapco Sysmark overall power consumption numbers, the DeskMini A300 and 310 have basically identical numbers (32.26 vs. 31.62 Wh). Seeing the the performance delta is not considerable I find this statement a bit odd. And these are Bapco Sysmark numbers which need to be taken with a rock of salt.
davie887 - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
Intel CAN'T be shown in anything other that their best light.Anyone who questions them has to prepare for the consequences :D
BigMamaInHouse - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
Comparing 2400G with Real iGPU vs $431 i7-8559U - I'd say it performs Great!.Irata - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
To be more specific, on the "productivity benchmark", the A300 has 89% of the A310's score with 86% of its power consumption, so for office type tasks, it is actually a bit more efficient.ganeshts - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
Ah, the pitfalls of saying ProdA scores X% of ProdB in metric M at Y% in metric N, when M and N are not linearly correlated!Extending it the same way, if I were to build the DeskMini 310 system with the same original review components at the current prices, I am going to splurge : 162 (DeskMini 310 board with Wi-Fi compared to DeskMini A300 without Wi-Fi) + 139 (Core i3-8100) + 76 (DDR4-2400 2x8GB SODIMM) + 78 (PCIe 3.0 x4 240GB NVMe SSD - Corsair Force MP510) = $455 ; Let me look up the table for the DeskMini A300 cost without Wi-Fi - tada, it is $465 - oh oh oh!!!! Does the lower upfront cost for the AMD system (as claimed in the article in the same BAPCo section) evaporate into thin air? No!
The reason is that when you are looking at SYSmark 2018 scores and SYSmark 2018 energy consumption numbers, you compare against systems that score approximately the same in those particular metrics.
For the overall SYSmark 2018 scores, the DeskMini A300 is approximately the same as the Baby Canyon NUC - then, let us look at the energy consumption numbers for those two - the Baby Canyon consumes lesser energy.
For the energy consumption numbers, the A300 and 310 are approximately in the same ball park - and there, you see the the 310 with a higher score.
As for accusations that 'Intel CAN"T be shown in anything other than their best light' - take a chill pill - the PCMark 8 numbers back up SYSmark 2018. And, in the gaming section, we show that AMD outperforms the best that Intel can offer. As an impartial reviewer, my aim is to present the facts as-is and provide my analysis - if you come with pre-conceived notions that one product / vendor is better than the other, then, no amount of facts will convince you otherwise.
Irata - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
Replying to two different comments with one reply is a bit unfortunate as another poster made the "Intel can't be shown in..." comment.As for the price, if you check Newegg, the $150 A300 does include a Wifi kit.
Looking at Newegg prices, I get the following:
Desk Mini 300: $150
Desk Mini 310: $168
Ryzen 2400G: $150
Core i3-8100: $142
Memory: 100 (for the AMD system) vs. 80 (for the Intel based one)
note: I had a hard time finding the exact memory so I was looking at Team Group memory with roughly the same specs
WDS500G1B0C: $78
Corsair FORCE MP500: $130
When possible, in stock retail items with free shipping were chosen.
This gives me a total of $ 478 for the Desk Mini 300 (including WiFi) and $ 520 for the 310. But calling the price even would be OK, considering how prices can fluctuate.
MASSAMKULABOX - Monday, December 9, 2019 - link
AMd 150 + 150 +100 = $400INT $168 + 142 + 80 = $ 390 ... makes Intel cheaper , ..altho at this late date you can get the 2400g for $120 or less
Irata - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
Second reply as I wanted to keep things separately.As I stated below, the comment regarding Intel having to be shown in the best light was made by another poster. Why could (she) have said this ?
For one, Intel is a client of your parent company Purch. They even mention this on their web site under "experience", stating "We’re focused on serving our action-oriented audience, as well as elevating the sponsor’s brand with that audience. We tailor the Native content that runs across our sites to better suit each environment, while keeping the integrity of the sponsor’s original content and brand."
In addition, you are using Bapco Sysmark, a benchmark that - given this "organization's" history - leaves a rather bad taste.
Now, I am not attacking your personal or journalistic integrity, however you must admit that the though AT may not be impartial does cross ones mind.
And this does not have to be overly obvious shilling (as that would be counter productive), but can be small nuances or tones, stressing one thing while leaving out another.
Do I have a pre-concieved notion of which one is better ?
Besides seeing the Intel iGPU as inferior (with the exception of video encode / decode) not really, but I admit that I do not particularly like Intel as a company
Ryan Smith - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
"Now, I am not attacking your personal or journalistic integrity, however you must admit that the though AT may not be impartial does cross ones mind."Above all else, I think people vastly overestimate both how much work vendors are willing to put in, and how much they actually care about AnandTech. Being underhanded is a lot of work, especially for as small an audience as AnandTech has.
To be sure, there is a significant editorial firewall up between ad sales and editorial. I honestly couldn't even tell you about our (former) publisher's comments, because none of that ever involved AnandTech. It was probably a campaign that ran on Tom's Guide or such.
But regardless, we don't do shenanigans, and I won't stand for them. Vendors don't get to see articles early, we don't let vendors buy preferential treatment, and any sponsored content is going to be very clearly labeled as such. All AnandTech has its its honesty; so to sacrifice that would cost us everything.
Which, to loop back to the discussion of Sysmark, Ganesh uses it as part of his mini-PC evaluations. It's a pretty useful benchmark, especially for the energy efficiency metrics. It works well for what Ganesh needs, and the workloads seem reasonable. At the same time we're well-aware of the controversy surrounding it, and we'd never trust a single benchmark for a review - and certainly not Sysmark. Which is why we run many benchmarks, to look at different workloads and get different points of view on performance.
Irata - Saturday, April 27, 2019 - link
Thanks for the clarification Ryan. I still think that Sysmark is a no-go, but that's just my personal opinion.Smell This - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
*As an impartial reviewer*_____________________
I snorted.
BPB - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
I have one of these, and really like it. My problem is I bought this to replace an older NUC, and the older NUC runs Windows 8.1. I use the older NUC for WMC. Obviously the DeskMini doesn't support 8.1, but I thought I could get it to run 7. I can't. I noticed that ASRock has a utility for installing Windows 7 on AM4 motherboards, and I was given the impression that ASRock would update the DeskMini BIOS so I could install Windows 7. Then I found out the 2400G is only Windows 10 compatible. I don't know how I missed that when I did my research... So, my son gets nice little PC to replace his older one. This is a nice little setup, I just wish Windows 10 had something even 80 percent as good as WMC.kaidenshi - Saturday, April 27, 2019 - link
We get by with Emby Server on a Dell PowerEdge tower server, and a Roku Ultra for the TV. It's not as ideal as having it all in one box, but it allows for more flexibility in storage as well as media sources (besides Emby, the Roku has hundreds of streaming channels). In the past we used a Mac mini but it was simply too limited in storage options.b4cks14sh - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
I was a long time WMC user myself. Once you get into Kodi + Tvheadend you will never look back to WMC. LibreELEC is a great Linux Distro for Kodi. Just try it!Rontalk - Monday, July 15, 2019 - link
It better can Run Windows 7, because I want that too. Did you try to mod driver?PeachNCream - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
Seems like a nice little box. I'm not a fan of the design. The front of the case is downright unappealing, but for the price point its hitting, that's at best a minor detraction. Who looks at their PC anyhow?Arnulf - Saturday, April 27, 2019 - link
Kidz do.Alexvrb - Saturday, April 27, 2019 - link
I think it looks OK for an office-type PC. If I hadn't already built my dad an ITX 2200G cube last year, I would probably buy this. It would get tucked out of sight anyway. $150 for the chassis, board, 120W brick PSU? Not bad, especially given it doesn't exactly have a craptop of AM4 competition - at least not at present.The 3200G/3400G APUs are basically tweaked Zen+ models. Although, that's not a bad thing if you're building one of these SFF PCs... rumors are a couple hundred more MHz, better GPU clocks, overclocks better, and lower TDP (at least at stock settings).
PyroHoltz - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
How much power is the usb-c port capable of delivering via the PD protocol?notashill - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
The manual doesn't indicate support for USB-PD at all, so it's probably just the base USB-C spec 5V 1.5A.Alexvrb - Saturday, April 27, 2019 - link
Welcome to USB-C, the standard that comes with almost nothing standard and almost everything you can think of optional. :P Could be anything, but I suspect notashill is right.VirtualLarry - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
If they have PCI-E x4 available for a LAN MAC/PHY, and they're only using x1 on a cheapo RealTek, why not give us a "A300 Premium" edition, with an x4 10GbE (like their TaiChi Ultimate board), or at the very least, a 2.5GbE (using the newest RealTek NICs), like their Intel Phantom Gaming boards.Realistically, these A300 DeskMini units are going to be in use for quite some time (and no way to plug in an expansion NIC*), and the time is ripe, for us to get better than 1GbE NICs these days.
(*) Club3D has announced USB3.0/3.1 Gen1 external NICs, with RealTek 2.5GbE chips inside them. I also await them, I suppose one could sacrifice a USB3 port on the A300 for one of those.
abufrejoval - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
Or an M.2 slot? They seem to have forgotten that slots were for extensibility and I would very much like the ability to upgrade to an NBase-T via an M.2 card (unless included)... They have lots of creative solutions for servers...Unfortunately I see only confusion ahead: With USB4 and x0-Gbit Ethernet, bandwidth won't be an issue, but latency, interoperability and turf wars might last forever.
mooninite - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
Finally! A Ryzen + Vega mini PC! It blows a more expensive, Intel Iris NUC out of the water. Amazing!PeachNCream - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
It does so it's a nice option for iGPU gaming. However Bean Canyon and other Iris parts are at a notable TDP disadvantage. I doubt the extra headroom would make up much of the difference, but if the Iris parts had additional power and cooling to put them on an even footing, I don't believe the advantage would be as significant. Despite that, I do like Ryzen and think its a worthwhile trade-off to make for a gaming use case.abufrejoval - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
So I thought, too. But then I looked at the power figures idle and max at the wall plug: Much less actual difference than 15/65 Watt would make you believe.Alexvrb - Saturday, April 27, 2019 - link
Plus the 3200G/3400G may drop TDP further. Although, can't you cTDP the 2x00G models to 45W already?mikato - Tuesday, April 30, 2019 - link
I like your thinking, but will it take them almost a year to get out a mini PC for those once they are released? Ugh.Alexvrb - Tuesday, April 30, 2019 - link
It's an AM4 barebones. The 3000 CPUs are Zen 2, but the 3200G/3400G APUs are just tweaked Zen+ based models, 12nm but (similar to RX 590) probably not a true dieshrink. I'm not even sure if you'd need a newer-than-current BIOS update for them to boot (though it would be recommended regardless). At any rate that's all that you might need, a BIOS update.mikato - Tuesday, April 30, 2019 - link
Yeah I agree - idle power usage of 11.24 watts for this DeckMini A300 vs the 8.45 watts of the NUC8i7BEH with Bean Canyon. That's a difference of only 2.8 watts!Irata - Wednesday, May 1, 2019 - link
And this difference may very well be due to other factors like PSU, memory, mainboard....eastcoast_pete - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
Question/Showing my ignorance of the capabilities of the chipset here: so, with this setup, is it possible to fine-tune the 2400G's CPU and GPU (undervolting, adjusting the frequency)? It sounds as if none of that would be possible, but again, I have no experience with this chipset and MoBo.Alexvrb - Saturday, April 27, 2019 - link
I just want to know if it supports cTDP, and if so, does it work well. Some boards do better than others.CharonPDX - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
Now that "integrated graphics" are starting to reach actually-usable levels, I'd like to see VR added to these SFF reviews. We keep the Oculus Rift in the living room, but have to bring the "gaming PC" out every time we want to use it. I'd love to get a small "capable enough for basic VR games" PC to just live in the living room to run the Oculus.Relatedly, it mentions the DP, HDMI, and VGA ports - but does the front panel USB-C port allow video output via DisplayPort Alternate Mode? If it can play basic VR games acceptably (BeatSaber is the big one,) I'd rather use the front-panel USB-C with one of Accell's USB-C VR adapters.
GreenReaper - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
It's "usable" up to 1080p on a single screen. Most VR systems use resolutions higher than this, one in each eye, and require twice the frame rates offered here. Don't get me wrong: I want this too, but if top-end Navi-based APUs *doubled* performance they'd still struggle, and they're a year away. Maybe if we had a dual-APU system? (Man, now I'm imagining this for a console.)piasabird - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
I have the Intel 310 version of the Desk Mini. I think on your review it is too technical while not stressing the ease at which a 2.5 SSD can be installed. The Data/power connectors on the back of the motherboard make it fairly easy and with not much cable clutter. However, I found the cables were easier to connect if you remove the motherboard first. Since some people may want to use a 2.5 SSD, you should have tested that. I wish a similar design was available in Mini-ITX. However, it seems unavailable on the consumer level for the most modern CPU's like the one used in this review.mikato - Tuesday, April 30, 2019 - link
I completely agree. I don't think it was mentioned anywhere in the review that you can add a 2.5" drive - and you can actually add 2 x 2.5" drives according to the ASRock specs page. That sets it apart from other mini PCs significantly. Most only support 1 x 2.5" drive, or the thin NUCs don't support any. That gives you some solid storage options. You can actually forgo the media server and have both ends of the HTPC in one compact box (front-end with all streaming options, and the file storage for local media).sor - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
I picked up two for my kids, with 2400Gs. Can’t beat the price. I have them mounted to the backs of their monitors which makes for a compact powerful all in one.I’ve got Ubuntu 19.04 on them and they run Dota2 like butter. Better than my 2018 MacBook Pro with discrete Radeon 560x.
My only ask might be two more rear USB ports, but it hasn’t been an issue so far.
sor - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
Come on guys! The wraith cooler fits and is clearly superior to the boxed one.It may not be listed as supported dimensionally, but you just need to take the superficial ring off the fan and you can ease it in with a little care.
oliwek - Saturday, April 27, 2019 - link
Or just add a low profile Noctua cooler, it's dead silent even under full load, and you won't ever see (nowhere near) 80 degrees celsius as with the stock cooler!https://noctua.at/en/nh-l9a-am4
sor - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
I just checked and I’m averaging about 57FPS on my 2400G deskmini A300w in 1080p, all settings max.That’s about 50% better performance than the review sees, which is huge. I am running Ubuntu 19.04 out of the box (no munching with drivers).
I AM using the wraith cooler as mentioned, which is also a difference. Are the windows drivers that bad? Or is it the cooler, or something else?
oliwek - Saturday, April 27, 2019 - link
The stock cooler is adequate for a 35watts athlon 200ge, but I'd avoid those high temps with 65W APUs we see here. I don't understand why not to mod the Wraith cooler as you chose to, as it's delivered with the processor, or else take an aftermarket low profile cooler (the Noctua looks like it was designed around this A300 motherboard).abufrejoval - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
Very nice review!But surprisingly little relative change (relative to publicity...) from the previous (major) iteration, which I interpret as the Kaveri vs. Skylake Iris Plus that I own and tested, A10-7850k vs. i5-6267U.
Intel still seems to never use more than 15Watts for the CPU, yet manages scaling single to 4GHz at great IPC while it manages to sustain admirable Hertz even at multi-core constant loads, taking a nice sip of cool on every little stall. AMD seems to retain a much more linear efficiency curve where clocks and cores just eat power, while the difference at the wall plug is much smaller in this iteration (was 3:1 for exactly the same performance on my old systems).
The good thing is that on a device like this, peak power is much less important than on a notebook, so it’s ok, as long as maintains quiet on constant peak and (finally) reaches acceptable idle: Here I see a lot of progress on AMD's side, Intel has much less room to beat itself.
For graphics, bandwidth is so crucial and I wonder what the AMD could do with a bit of eDRAM, HBM or even a lower-power variant of GDDR5… but I guess the latency issues could kill browser performance and that is unfortunately a large chunk of what buyers would want these for…
Still dreaming of a way to put well-proportioned APUs in a scalable system with 1x/2x/4x configs… With storage and RAM no longer eating box space, 75/150/300 Watt configs could be relatively small yet remain quiet.
Speaking of idle power and quiet, this is where I get interested in the AMD. The NUC is great in everything but noise on peak load, but it would really only take a replacement top and a Noctua to make it great… There is so much space behind these giant 4k screens, nuc/NUC can become a little pointless.
Good Linux support is where I am getting concerned. Current reports praise AMD on their Linux vision… but progress seems a very different story and one where Intel (sorry Charly), really shines, even Nvidia seems better in practical terms (sorry Linus). I’m also somewhat disheartened by power management there: Not sure I’ll be able to reach 10 Watt of idle on CentOS or Ubuntu *and* Steam/Vulkan performance comparable to Windows (it’s actually gotten quite good on bigger Nvidia GPUs, even GPU pass-through to a Windows VM is kind of fun).
sor - Saturday, April 27, 2019 - link
As I mentioned probably as you were typing this, I ran Ubuntu straight out of the box and am getting nearly 50% better FPS than this review on Dota 2. Full vulkan support and max settings. Pleasantly surprised, I am used to having to tinker with drivers.Notably, I don’t think this would have been possible 8 months ago as only newer kernels have the good AMD support built in.
Pishi86 - Saturday, April 27, 2019 - link
This is not exactly a fair comparison. You are comparing a desktop AMD chip with and a mobile Intel chip. Its kind of like comparing an i3 8100 vs a Ryzen 5 3500u. AMD's Ryzen 5 3550H and Ryzen 7 3750H would have been more competitive. These chips are about as fast as the 2400G, but with an maximum TDP of 35w. There are some reviews on Notebookcheck and these chips are consuming just over 70w underload. This is with a 15.6 1080P screen and a power hungry Radeon RX 560X. The power consumption and battery life is actually better than an i5 8300H and 1050 combo with an identical. Check out the review below.https://www.notebookcheck.net/Asus-TUF-FX505DY-Ryz...
The truth is the onboard Vega on Ryzen is a very powerful iGPU held back by memory bandwidth. Unrestrained, its probably 80-90% as powerful as an RX 460. It has 640-704 Vega cores which are clocked higher (1.2-1.4GHz) than the 896 cores in the RX 460. Vega's IPC should be a bit above Polaris's.
I agree with you Linux support is spotty, I am a Linux user myself and I am in the market for a new laptop, but I may have to buy Intel despite its weak iGPU. Unfortunately, you can't find anymore Iris powered laptops these days (outside the macbook pro). Also, even though its improved AMD's video decode/encode is not as efficient as Intel's. I am not even sure if Nvidia is as efficient as Intel in video playback. Having that said I would not trust Intel's UHD graphics powering a 4k monitor, which is what I am in the market for.
Pishi86 - Friday, April 26, 2019 - link
Does anyone know if you could get a 3rd party power supply that's more than 120w? I mean 150w might be good, if AMD releases 95W APUs in the future. A 120W PSU might limit CPUs abover 65W.Lucky Stripes 99 - Sunday, May 5, 2019 - link
Yes, there are third party power bricks available that can supply more current. Just keep in mind that the power regulators on the motherboard may not be rated for that higher current and that you could shorten its life or run into stability issues if you attempted to use a more power hungry processor (assuming if the BIOS would even make it past POST with an unsupported processor).Haawser - Saturday, April 27, 2019 - link
Good luck buying one...Only EU retailers I could find seem to have sold out within hours. Still, will keep trying. As this is exactly the sort of SFF I've wanted since Ryzen APUs came out.ganeshts - Saturday, April 27, 2019 - link
On Amazon and Newegg, Computer Upgrade King seems to have lot of ready-to-go models with the DeskMini A300 ; Eg: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9... (Just FYI - I have no idea about the reputation of this retailer. Just came up during my search on Google)Haawser - Saturday, April 27, 2019 - link
@ganeshts- Again, out of stock. Personally I think ASRock, Lenovo, HP, Zotac and everybody else that manufacturers SFF PCs have greatly underestimated the number of people looking to buy Ryzen APU based systems. And with the improved 3000 series (12nm Zen+ with soldered HS) soon available, the barebones will be even more sought after.ganeshts - Sunday, April 28, 2019 - link
Shows in-stock for me when I added to cart : https://i.imgur.com/YWbYlJ6.pngoliwek - Saturday, April 27, 2019 - link
For people in NL or BE, I bought mine from here, delivered promptly : https://www.megekko.nl/product/2321/237330/Barebon...Haawser - Sunday, April 28, 2019 - link
@oliwek That's the 310, it's an Intel barebones system, not Ryzen.sor - Saturday, April 27, 2019 - link
If you sign up for Newegg notifications you’ll probably have one within a week. I got one of mine about three weeks ago and the other last week.yankeeDDL - Monday, April 29, 2019 - link
I'm just going to throw it as a suggestion.I understand the purpose and the rationale in comparing similarly priced models, and all relatively recent/available, however ... I think it would add an enormous value to "normal" users to be able to somewhat put things in perspective with slightly dated hardware.
I am not saying that we should be able to compare the Ryzen 5 2400G with an 80486, but, to give you an example, I have an A10-8700P and I have been considering an upgrade, but it seems really difficult to find a way to get an idea of just how much faster the 2400G is.
The A10-8700P is certainly not efficient, but it does have 4 cores, and a decent iGPU, already based on the GCN. There's no question that the 2400G will trounce it in efficiency, but is it a worth upgrade?
It is just an example, to indicate that having also 2-3 previous generations in the comparisons would not be such a bad idea, in my opinion. Just a thought.
Irata - Wednesday, May 1, 2019 - link
If you are looking for this type of comparison, planet3dnow de has one between an Athlon 5350 (Jaguar) vs Athlon 200GE. It's in German but maybe you can get useable results using Google translate.They also did a review of the Hewlett-Packard 17-ca1004ng notebook with a Ryzen 5 3500U comparing it to its Bristol Ridge predecessor.
Both show just how far AMD has come with Ryzen.
mikato - Tuesday, April 30, 2019 - link
Ganesh, you didn't talk about noise at all. I feel like that should always be included in these mini PC articles. You have 3 pages on HTPC credentials and 1 page on Power Consumption and Thermal Performance but no mention of noise. How does it compare to the Intel NUC8i7BEH that you mentioned had a noisy fan with any load? Or the ZBOX CI660 which was fanless but had a dull whine and a strange grating sound though it wasn't noticeable beyond 10 feet? Did you think that optional CPU heatsink/fan they included was adequate?By the way, 10 feet isn't close enough. How about 6 feet? If you give one noise impression from 10 feet, you could move a few feet closer and check what it is at 6 feet as well... for future reviews.
If you keep doing these Mini PC reviews, I will keep reading them!
Lucky Stripes 99 - Sunday, May 5, 2019 - link
I was also puzzled at the lack noise testing. One of the reasons I'm looking at mini-STX and thin mini-ITX systems instead of a NUC is because of the fan noise many of those NUC systems suffer from.Some folks have been installing low-profile Noctua CPU coolers in their Deskmini systems and they report that they are "nearly silent", even while under heavy load. I'd really like to know how silent that really is.
werpu - Monday, May 6, 2019 - link
I have a ryzen 2400g mini itx system with the flat noctua, and it is very silent, even under heavy load it is almost not hearable. I however had to add 2 smaller noctuas later in my system because the vrm would get rather hot with my standalone noctua and the case I was using. Still a very silent system and definitely less noise than a nuc.mikato - Tuesday, April 30, 2019 - link
At first I thought Bean Canyon was the best way to go for an HTPC with the performance and power efficiency. But with an idle power usage of 11.24 watts for this DeckMini A300 vs the 8.45 watts of the NUC8i7BEH with Bean Canyon - that difference is so little. As my HTPC, it would be left on and most of the time it would be idling. And the "as configured, no OS" prices in your reviews for these were $465 for the DeskMini A300 and $963 for the NUC8i7BEH...Let's see, your DeskMini A300 had:
G.Skill Ripjaws F4-3000C16D-16GRS 2x8 GB (newegg $100)
Western Digital WD SN500 500 GB (newegg $70)
While your NUC8i7BEH had:
G.Skill Ripjaws F4-3000C16D-32GRS 2x16 GB (newegg $185 - your review listed RipjawsV F4-3000C16-16GRS but I couldn't find that anywhere and the photos in your NUC8i7BEH review showed it was F4-3000C16D-32GRS instead so I think your specs table was incorrect)
Western Digital WD Black 3D NVMe SSD (2018) 1 TB (newegg $238 for the SN750, older 2018 one costs more)
Let's see... that's $185-100=85 and $238-70=168. 85+168=253
So your combined storage and memory choices for the NUC8i7BEH cost $253 more.
And the difference in your overall "as configured, no OS" prices was $963-465=498.
So if I remove the difference in your storage and memory choices, I calculate that the DeskMini A300 is still $498-253 = $245 cheaper!
Sure the A300 doesn't look as nice or compact as the NUC, but that is some solid money.
Irata - Wednesday, May 1, 2019 - link
The Intel models are usually configured with higher end components vs. the AMD based models. Same for laptops where $600 AMD based notebooks go up against $1,600 Intel ones .I guess it's a hold over of the "AMD = budget" days.
mikato - Thursday, May 2, 2019 - link
Well, it's not a laptop. What do you think might be a higher end component here? This is basically a case, motherboard, and power supply, right?Irata - Thursday, May 2, 2019 - link
True about the system. Memory was good, but the SSD was a slower one.Basically, I would really like to see premium components being used in AMD based systems just like in Intel systems (or you could do it the other way around to reach the same price).
mikato - Thursday, May 2, 2019 - link
My price comparison cancelled out the reviewer's choices of memory and SSD. Those are things each person can choose.suraj jha - Wednesday, May 1, 2019 - link
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I've searched the whole article for the word "Noise" and I couldn't find a single reference. :(On a HTPC perspective, noise can be a determining factor.
How will it stack up when compared to Intel NUCs?
sor - Thursday, May 2, 2019 - link
It’s very quiet while gaming, at least if you use the wraith cooler. Much quieter than any video card (aside from fabless ones of course. Not completely inaudible but quieter than my MacBook Pro.mikato - Friday, May 3, 2019 - link
Thank you! Now that is a good comparison. I'm guessing it's quiet enough for me and my 6 foot HTPC situation. How about when not gaming? Is playing Youtube or Netflix or something basically not noticeable at all?alicetaylor - Monday, May 13, 2019 - link
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Dik - Sunday, July 14, 2019 - link
Will the ASRock A300 be coming out with USB 3.1 Gen 2? Can this be a BIOS upgrade? or it a feature of the chipset? I assume you can use the Rizen 3900X processor.Dik