So INTC is barely shipping 1st gen Optane DIMMs, but is talking up 3rd gen? Not yet shipping CXL, but talking up PCIe 6? Not yet shipping 10nm, but Foveros will change everything?
There's a phrase for what's going on here: EGO, ie Embedded Growth Obligations Look it up, and look up the history surrounding it...
Barely shipping? All major OEMs have announced systems with Optane DIMM. Volume and expansion of Intel products happen quite quickly.
For Customers to adopt they need to have line of sight into future plans. Optane PMM will be the key diffrentiator for Intel. They will need customers and other cloud software providers to adopt it. Already VMWare vSphere has added Optane PMM support.
"All major OEMs have announced systems with Optane DIMM" Is announcing the same as shipping? No, no it is not. Is shipping the same as shipping in volume? Again no.
You seem unaware of exactly what it is that I am complaining about (or, to put it more precisely, that I am pointing out is a worrying aspect of Intel's pattern of behavior over the past few years, becoming extreme as of 2019).
Not according to Ian: "Ice Lake having second generation Optane, given as it is DDR4, and a newer generation (perhaps Sapphire Rapids?) supporting both third generation Optane and DDR5"
So I am curious what doe this mean for a future computer - say a new notebook.
Say it has 16G of DDR5 ram and 512G Optane
Does this mean the computer could be configured to use more memory and used some Optane. Or configurated as fast storage or as cache for larger storage.
What's not true? I'm talking about Optane DIMM memory. If the laptop has it, then it would make most sense to use it as main system memory, with DDRX memory serving as cache.
All I saying is that Optane memory can be use just as RAM on system, I expect it not a good idea to use it by itself - but in conjunction with normal DDR ram. From what I read this is one of modes that it can be setup to use. I not sure how important for laptop to have 512G of system memory, but an enterprise server run sql database would. I could see it being used in 3D application with large scene. I personally notice that with 16G of ram that with large scenes that 3d application slows down.
I'm more interested in what this could mean for phones and other mobile devices. when your RAM is persistent, you will end up using a lot less power. I can see this unifying storage and RAM into one conglomerate blob. Can you say a phone with 128gig of RAM? Not only that, you would never need to 'boot' your device, because you just turn the CPU off and it's ram stays where it is.
If it's DDR5 compatible, does that mean that *any* DDR5-compliant CPU+motherboard will support Optane DIMMs?
This would be very cool because in my work (academic economist), most of my data analysis consumes about 16 GB, so I have 32 GB of RAM, but some of my colleagues have occasionally needed more than 32 GB. One of my colleagues recently started working with a 200 GB dataset, so she's been trying to figure out a way to avoid hitting the pagefile.
It would be cool if instead of getting 256 GB of RAM, a person could get 32 GB of DRAM plus a 256 GB Optane DIMM. In the meantime, I suggested she buy a 256 GB Optane SSD and set it as the location for her Windows pagefile.
Long answer: You still need the controller to support Optane DIMM. But bringing Optane to be more compliant with DDR5 would mean that more platforms can support it.
The scenario you suggested with using 256GB Optane SSD as a pagefile is not that new. Their datacenter P4800X Optane SSDs have a software you can buy from them called Memory Drive which allows using your SSD to extend memory.
My opinion is that the Optane DC PMMs can effectively displace P4800X, because the price/GB of the modules are roughly equivalent to the P4800X when you add the Memory Drive(the software seems to add about $500).
The lowest Xeon Scalable chip that supports the Optane PMMs is the Xeon Silver 4215. All the Gold and Platinum models support it. Not sure if the P4800X with the Memory Drive feature will be worth it for the price, so do a fact check.
If you can get the 2nd generation system that supports the Optane PMMs, it'll be much better. For the price of 750GB P4800X with Memory Drive, you can get 6x 128GB modules that'll have 5-10x the bandwidth and 1/4 to 1/2 the latency, and that's in block storage mode where no changes are required. In Memory expansion mode and App Direct mode(this requires application support) the latencies go down even more.
That is what I thought that these can actually extended memory, even persistent - great for huge databases - for large memory actually cheaper. Not simply Pagefile or ram drive - but physical memory that is persistant.
I believe the ssd most be specially designed like Optane. I not sure this technology works with other SSD's. Maybe in future if Intel licenses the technology.
If your colleague has such a large dataset, she should pipeline data accesses. I mean she should overlap data transfer and computation, e.g. load the first chunk of data, then while it's being processed load the next one, and so on. Unless she needs to have fast access to all 200GB of data at once, but I can't imagine the application where that would be the case.
It makes much more sense to run this workload as an async job on an AWS spot instance with 512G memory, or even as a lambda. You run it once for a few hours and then analyze for a few days and write reports for two more days? Really, much more sense to run it on a server.
I would think that Intel is maybe planning to make Optane Memory compliant with the NVDIMM-P protocol that I think will be related to DDR5.
My (albeit limited) understanding is that the NVDIMM-P protocol should open the opportunity to different type of Non Volatile Memory (NVM) including Intel 3D X-Point (Intel Optane memory), but also Nantero nanotube NRAM, Everspin magnetic STT-MRAM,... to be used on the memory bus : this should open plenty of new opportunities for differentiation as each NVM type has different set of advantages / drawbacks.
I am really, really,... looking forward to see what innovation it will spur in the consumer hardware, especially mobile devices, but unfortunately realistically it will take to wait 2025 - 2030 timeframe for that...
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saratoga4 - Wednesday, April 10, 2019 - link
Both DDR5 and Optane are about increasing memory density, so makes sense to pair them off as soon as possible.name99 - Wednesday, April 10, 2019 - link
So INTC is barely shipping 1st gen Optane DIMMs, but is talking up 3rd gen?Not yet shipping CXL, but talking up PCIe 6?
Not yet shipping 10nm, but Foveros will change everything?
There's a phrase for what's going on here: EGO, ie Embedded Growth Obligations
Look it up, and look up the history surrounding it...
nevcairiel - Wednesday, April 10, 2019 - link
From design to shipping with products like that takes years, so it only makes sense to plan the next generation.name99 - Thursday, April 11, 2019 - link
Planning, yes.Announcing those plans, not so much...
trivik12 - Wednesday, April 10, 2019 - link
Barely shipping? All major OEMs have announced systems with Optane DIMM. Volume and expansion of Intel products happen quite quickly.For Customers to adopt they need to have line of sight into future plans. Optane PMM will be the key diffrentiator for Intel. They will need customers and other cloud software providers to adopt it. Already VMWare vSphere has added Optane PMM support.
name99 - Thursday, April 11, 2019 - link
"All major OEMs have announced systems with Optane DIMM"Is announcing the same as shipping? No, no it is not.
Is shipping the same as shipping in volume? Again no.
You seem unaware of exactly what it is that I am complaining about (or, to put it more precisely, that I am pointing out is a worrying aspect of Intel's pattern of behavior over the past few years, becoming extreme as of 2019).
A5 - Wednesday, April 10, 2019 - link
Intel is a big company that can do multiple things at once.FullmetalTitan - Thursday, April 11, 2019 - link
Optane DIMMs are 2nd generation 3d xpoint, they are discussing 3rd gen Optane, which would be 2nd gen DIMMs that are DDR5 compatible.p1esk - Thursday, April 11, 2019 - link
Not according to Ian: "Ice Lake having second generation Optane, given as it is DDR4, and a newer generation (perhaps Sapphire Rapids?) supporting both third generation Optane and DDR5"HStewart - Wednesday, April 10, 2019 - link
So I am curious what doe this mean for a future computer - say a new notebook.Say it has 16G of DDR5 ram and 512G Optane
Does this mean the computer could be configured to use more memory and used some Optane. Or configurated as fast storage or as cache for larger storage.
p1esk - Wednesday, April 10, 2019 - link
I think it will just say 512GB of Optane memory, and DDRX memory will be treated as L4 cache.HStewart - Thursday, April 11, 2019 - link
That is not true - see link belowp1esk - Thursday, April 11, 2019 - link
What's not true? I'm talking about Optane DIMM memory. If the laptop has it, then it would make most sense to use it as main system memory, with DDRX memory serving as cache.HStewart - Friday, April 12, 2019 - link
All I saying is that Optane memory can be use just as RAM on system, I expect it not a good idea to use it by itself - but in conjunction with normal DDR ram. From what I read this is one of modes that it can be setup to use. I not sure how important for laptop to have 512G of system memory, but an enterprise server run sql database would. I could see it being used in 3D application with large scene. I personally notice that with 16G of ram that with large scenes that 3d application slows down.imaskar - Friday, July 12, 2019 - link
Don't bother waiting for this in a notebook. Not for next 3 years at least. This is pure datacenter for now.MrPoletski - Monday, July 22, 2019 - link
I'm more interested in what this could mean for phones and other mobile devices. when your RAM is persistent, you will end up using a lot less power. I can see this unifying storage and RAM into one conglomerate blob. Can you say a phone with 128gig of RAM? Not only that, you would never need to 'boot' your device, because you just turn the CPU off and it's ram stays where it is.Mikewind Dale - Wednesday, April 10, 2019 - link
If it's DDR5 compatible, does that mean that *any* DDR5-compliant CPU+motherboard will support Optane DIMMs?This would be very cool because in my work (academic economist), most of my data analysis consumes about 16 GB, so I have 32 GB of RAM, but some of my colleagues have occasionally needed more than 32 GB. One of my colleagues recently started working with a 200 GB dataset, so she's been trying to figure out a way to avoid hitting the pagefile.
It would be cool if instead of getting 256 GB of RAM, a person could get 32 GB of DRAM plus a 256 GB Optane DIMM. In the meantime, I suggested she buy a 256 GB Optane SSD and set it as the location for her Windows pagefile.
IntelUser2000 - Wednesday, April 10, 2019 - link
Short answer: YesLong answer: You still need the controller to support Optane DIMM. But bringing Optane to be more compliant with DDR5 would mean that more platforms can support it.
The scenario you suggested with using 256GB Optane SSD as a pagefile is not that new. Their datacenter P4800X Optane SSDs have a software you can buy from them called Memory Drive which allows using your SSD to extend memory.
Mikewind Dale - Wednesday, April 10, 2019 - link
I didn't know about the Memory Drive software! I'll tell my colleague about that. Thanks!IntelUser2000 - Thursday, April 11, 2019 - link
Mikewind Dale: You are welcome.My opinion is that the Optane DC PMMs can effectively displace P4800X, because the price/GB of the modules are roughly equivalent to the P4800X when you add the Memory Drive(the software seems to add about $500).
The lowest Xeon Scalable chip that supports the Optane PMMs is the Xeon Silver 4215. All the Gold and Platinum models support it. Not sure if the P4800X with the Memory Drive feature will be worth it for the price, so do a fact check.
If you can get the 2nd generation system that supports the Optane PMMs, it'll be much better. For the price of 750GB P4800X with Memory Drive, you can get 6x 128GB modules that'll have 5-10x the bandwidth and 1/4 to 1/2 the latency, and that's in block storage mode where no changes are required. In Memory expansion mode and App Direct mode(this requires application support) the latencies go down even more.
HStewart - Thursday, April 11, 2019 - link
That is what I thought that these can actually extended memory, even persistent - great for huge databases - for large memory actually cheaper. Not simply Pagefile or ram drive - but physical memory that is persistant.HStewart - Thursday, April 11, 2019 - link
I believe the ssd most be specially designed like Optane. I not sure this technology works with other SSD's. Maybe in future if Intel licenses the technology.https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/software/i...
p1esk - Thursday, April 11, 2019 - link
If your colleague has such a large dataset, she should pipeline data accesses. I mean she should overlap data transfer and computation, e.g. load the first chunk of data, then while it's being processed load the next one, and so on. Unless she needs to have fast access to all 200GB of data at once, but I can't imagine the application where that would be the case.imaskar - Friday, July 12, 2019 - link
It makes much more sense to run this workload as an async job on an AWS spot instance with 512G memory, or even as a lambda. You run it once for a few hours and then analyze for a few days and write reports for two more days? Really, much more sense to run it on a server.Diogene7 - Saturday, September 19, 2020 - link
I would think that Intel is maybe planning to make Optane Memory compliant with the NVDIMM-P protocol that I think will be related to DDR5.My (albeit limited) understanding is that the NVDIMM-P protocol should open the opportunity to different type of Non Volatile Memory (NVM) including Intel 3D X-Point (Intel Optane memory), but also Nantero nanotube NRAM, Everspin magnetic STT-MRAM,... to be used on the memory bus : this should open plenty of new opportunities for differentiation as each NVM type has different set of advantages / drawbacks.
I am really, really,... looking forward to see what innovation it will spur in the consumer hardware, especially mobile devices, but unfortunately realistically it will take to wait 2025 - 2030 timeframe for that...