I don't agree. Why wouldn't someone start with a 10D? For example, let's say that someone has a sizable investment in Canon EF L lenses and wants to make the jump to digital? The 10D/20D would be a good choice for those who own a bunch of lenses and who don't want to break the bank on a digital SLR.
I'm currently considering making such a move. The EOS 20D would be a fine addition to my EOS-1 and EOS-3. I could decide to get a digital made around the EOS-1 at a later time.
I think you did an excellent job in your review. I especially enjoyed the side by side noise and color comparisons. I thought the topic was very relevant and direct comparisons between the 300D and 10D are not that common. I thought the hands-on battery review was excellent as well. Every review adds something new and different. Yours was no exception.
I find it unfortunate that some of the people here have a need to tear other people's work down. I appreciate your work and I think you did a good job. Thanks!
yeah, i totally agree. First, there's no way anyone would START with the 10D. the 300D, maybe, but the person needs to be seriously wanting to get into photography. Otherwise, if all you want is a simple camera, there's no need to go with the "DSLRs". For MOST PPL, a fixed lens solution works just fine. Personally, i have outgrown a fixed lens solution, but i dont have the $$$ to get a real camera simply because the cost of lenses are $$$$$ compared to the cost of the camera.
Besides, no one cares about any battles between the 10D and 300D. The battles are between the other $1000 DSLRs. So far, Nikon is winning imo.
I'd have to agree with the majority of comments here. I'm sure stephen meant well by the review but I don't feel that Anandtech is an appropiate forum to discuss digital cameras. Dpreview is hands-down the best place for camera reviews.. Mind you, it is so because of the more photographic related points made during the review. Additionally, they focus on photogs not gadget lovers. A gadget lover wouldn't even consider a 10D, though a Rebel would be in their alley. (Personally, I have a Nikon FE2 with a Acer ScanWit 2420 and Minolta G400).
I have a feeling the MAIN reason why this whole review was posted and even considered was what was noted in the last paragraph... a hack. Hacks/overclocking/deals/best bang for you buck all are issues that Anandtech readers love, hence the weekly buyers guides, overclocking tests, etc. This would have been best located as a post in the forums somewhere. Once I read that single paragraph, the jig was up and I was even more disappointed.
Additional 2c:
Anyone getting started in photography shouldn't use a 10D quality camera. Grasshopper, you must first realize it is the photographer, not the camera that takes great pictures. AF, AE, etc. should be regarded as luxuries not as requirements. Once you learn how to use a manual camera (Zone method, etc), one can appreciate automatic features. Same idea with digital cameras. Start small (S410 or S50) then move up to the big boys.
The resolution test was done in RAW mode for both cameras and then converted to JPG in PS CS with +1.0 EV applied.
The rest of the image quality tests (including white balance) were done with both cameras reset to factory default settings and using the lowest compression JPG mode (Large/Fine 3072x2048). This allowed us to compare how both cameras process images using their default settings.
Does anyone know if the image quality and white balance tests were shot in RAW or JPEG mode?
Reason is the tests will be uneven. The 300D will sharpen the image slightly more causing a degradation in resolution. Also, the 300D does boost the saturation slightly. The shots need to be done in RAW only and those images need to be compared. If I missed the fine print, I apologize.
Dpreview does indeed offer a far more comprehensive and frankly, believable review of each of these cameras.
I agree that you should instead focus on the computer-related issues that are involved with these kinds of cameras. It would be *GREAT* if you would post a comprehensive review of the firmware hacks for the 300D that are out there or do an overview of the various storage options that are out now. Hell, you could do a comprehensive look at performance issues with new CF cards - which ones are really worth the money and with what cameras are they best suited.
The D-Rebel cannot compare to Nikon's D70. Check it out. It is just slightly more expensive than the D-Rebel ($100 or so) and has many more features and better design / build.
i agree with shuttleboi, there are many sites out there that already provide excellent reviews from varying viewpoints (dpreview, imaging resource, megapixel.net, steves digicams, dcresource, etc). anandtech should focus on the things that the other large sites dont cover, what shuttleboi listed is a good start.
Although your review is nice, I recommend you focus your attention more towards computer issues related to digicams rather than the cameras themselves (which other professional websites already do extremely well). Some other issues might be: (1) There is a 3rd party hack to the 300D firmware that reveals features found in the more expensive 10D. Is this safe? Does it really work? (2) How well do portable storage devices work (that let you dump a memory card to disk)? Relibability? Performance? There is absolutely nothing on the web right now that fully evaluates the products on the market. Here is an expansive list: http://fhoude34.free.fr/PortableHD.htm . (I'm waiting for the Nikon Coolwalker, but only because I don't trust companies whom I've never heard of.) (3) Software that manages/downloads photos. Photoshop Album? Breezebrowser? WTF?
And if you go to this digital camera review site you see that they found no diffrence in the resolution tests. I'm not saying that thier test is more valid than yours it's just a second opinion.
For covering the basic differences between the two cameras, this was a good review. However, to me this was pretty old news, since this particular topic has been covered a gazillion places already in a gazillion different ways.
And of course, any camera can be a "professional" camera if you use it to make money, but in the traditional definiton, the 10D comes close to being a pro camera. The Rebel is not. If you want to see some real pro stuff, google the 1Ds. Or if you'd like some real sticker shock, check the price of the Phase One P25 (then add $8K USD more for the medium format autofocus camera system to go with it). ;-)
#2, sorry if I didn't make it clear in the article, but on page 3 I did mention that I was using a Canon 50mm Macro lens for all tests. I will add another reference to the lens at the beginning of the image quality tests too.
You make a good point though. The quality of the final picture lies in the quality of the lens used. Thats why I decided to use the same 50mm lens for all the tests on both cameras.
I'm not the resident camera expert (hi Stephen), but these cameras are "prosumer" and not professional ... kinda scary isn't it :-)
I liked the article too. Maybe I'm a little biased, but I thought it was both very thurough as well as easy to follow (especially not being a camera guy myself).
How can you possibly have tests trying to show detail and colour and not even mention the lenses you use?? As any good photographer knows, the lens is far more important than the camera body, even for digital. Did you use the kit 18-55 EF-S for the 300D? That's a horrible lens. Unless you used the same lens for both cameras, your tests are meaningless.
Great Article, I was very pleased to see you guys are going to do digital camera reviews, since I'm going to be in the market for a camera soon. I hope to see reviews of more 'prosumer' or 'consumer' level cameras, rather than these $1000 cameras.. though I understand you probably get pretty much what you pay for.
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hixen - Thursday, September 23, 2004 - link
everyone looking for the "hack"http://satinfo.narod.ru/en/index.html
rapope - Thursday, September 9, 2004 - link
Hi,I don't agree. Why wouldn't someone start with a 10D? For example, let's say that someone has a sizable investment in Canon EF L lenses and wants to make the jump to digital? The 10D/20D would be a good choice for those who own a bunch of lenses and who don't want to break the bank on a digital SLR.
I'm currently considering making such a move. The EOS 20D would be a fine addition to my EOS-1 and EOS-3. I could decide to get a digital made around the EOS-1 at a later time.
Whaddaya think??
RP
rapope - Thursday, September 9, 2004 - link
Nice review, very detailed, with lots of useful information. Will you be posting an update based on the newly-released 20D?Thanks!!
511PF - Friday, July 9, 2004 - link
I think you did an excellent job in your review. I especially enjoyed the side by side noise and color comparisons. I thought the topic was very relevant and direct comparisons between the 300D and 10D are not that common. I thought the hands-on battery review was excellent as well. Every review adds something new and different. Yours was no exception.I find it unfortunate that some of the people here have a need to tear other people's work down. I appreciate your work and I think you did a good job. Thanks!
Mday - Friday, July 9, 2004 - link
yeah, i totally agree. First, there's no way anyone would START with the 10D. the 300D, maybe, but the person needs to be seriously wanting to get into photography. Otherwise, if all you want is a simple camera, there's no need to go with the "DSLRs". For MOST PPL, a fixed lens solution works just fine. Personally, i have outgrown a fixed lens solution, but i dont have the $$$ to get a real camera simply because the cost of lenses are $$$$$ compared to the cost of the camera.Besides, no one cares about any battles between the 10D and 300D. The battles are between the other $1000 DSLRs. So far, Nikon is winning imo.
WooDaddy - Thursday, July 8, 2004 - link
I'd have to agree with the majority of comments here. I'm sure stephen meant well by the review but I don't feel that Anandtech is an appropiate forum to discuss digital cameras. Dpreview is hands-down the best place for camera reviews.. Mind you, it is so because of the more photographic related points made during the review. Additionally, they focus on photogs not gadget lovers. A gadget lover wouldn't even consider a 10D, though a Rebel would be in their alley. (Personally, I have a Nikon FE2 with a Acer ScanWit 2420 and Minolta G400).I have a feeling the MAIN reason why this whole review was posted and even considered was what was noted in the last paragraph... a hack. Hacks/overclocking/deals/best bang for you buck all are issues that Anandtech readers love, hence the weekly buyers guides, overclocking tests, etc. This would have been best located as a post in the forums somewhere. Once I read that single paragraph, the jig was up and I was even more disappointed.
Additional 2c:
Anyone getting started in photography shouldn't use a 10D quality camera. Grasshopper, you must first realize it is the photographer, not the camera that takes great pictures. AF, AE, etc. should be regarded as luxuries not as requirements. Once you learn how to use a manual camera (Zone method, etc), one can appreciate automatic features. Same idea with digital cameras. Start small (S410 or S50) then move up to the big boys.
... phew... </rant>
stephencaston - Wednesday, July 7, 2004 - link
kaltree,The resolution test was done in RAW mode for both cameras and then converted to JPG in PS CS with +1.0 EV applied.
The rest of the image quality tests (including white balance) were done with both cameras reset to factory default settings and using the lowest compression JPG mode (Large/Fine 3072x2048). This allowed us to compare how both cameras process images using their default settings.
kaltree - Wednesday, July 7, 2004 - link
Does anyone know if the image quality and white balance tests were shot in RAW or JPEG mode?Reason is the tests will be uneven. The 300D will sharpen the image slightly more causing a degradation in resolution. Also, the 300D does boost the saturation slightly. The shots need to be done in RAW only and those images need to be compared. If I missed the fine print, I apologize.
(Canon 300D owner since August 2003)
broken33 - Wednesday, July 7, 2004 - link
Dpreview does indeed offer a far more comprehensive and frankly, believable review of each of these cameras.
I agree that you should instead focus on the computer-related issues that are involved with these kinds of cameras. It would be *GREAT* if you would post a comprehensive review of the firmware hacks for the 300D that are out there or do an overview of the various storage options that are out now. Hell, you could do a comprehensive look at performance issues with new CF cards - which ones are really worth the money and with what cameras are they best suited.
JetJock - Wednesday, July 7, 2004 - link
The D-Rebel cannot compare to Nikon's D70. Check it out. It is just slightly more expensive than the D-Rebel ($100 or so) and has many more features and better design / build.Mday - Wednesday, July 7, 2004 - link
how the hell are you going to compare these two cameras?This does not compare to what dpreview can offer.
GOSHARKS - Tuesday, July 6, 2004 - link
i agree with shuttleboi, there are many sites out there that already provide excellent reviews from varying viewpoints (dpreview, imaging resource, megapixel.net, steves digicams, dcresource, etc). anandtech should focus on the things that the other large sites dont cover, what shuttleboi listed is a good start.shuttleboi - Tuesday, July 6, 2004 - link
Although your review is nice, I recommend you focus your attention more towards computer issues related to digicams rather than the cameras themselves (which other professional websites already do extremely well). Some other issues might be: (1) There is a 3rd party hack to the 300D firmware that reveals features found in the more expensive 10D. Is this safe? Does it really work? (2) How well do portable storage devices work (that let you dump a memory card to disk)? Relibability? Performance? There is absolutely nothing on the web right now that fully evaluates the products on the market. Here is an expansive list: http://fhoude34.free.fr/PortableHD.htm . (I'm waiting for the Nikon Coolwalker, but only because I don't trust companies whom I've never heard of.) (3) Software that manages/downloads photos. Photoshop Album? Breezebrowser? WTF?opaper - Tuesday, July 6, 2004 - link
And if you go to this digital camera review site you see that they found no diffrence in the resolution tests. I'm not saying that thier test is more valid than yours it's just a second opinion.http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos300d/page2...
jliechty - Monday, July 5, 2004 - link
For covering the basic differences between the two cameras, this was a good review. However, to me this was pretty old news, since this particular topic has been covered a gazillion places already in a gazillion different ways.And of course, any camera can be a "professional" camera if you use it to make money, but in the traditional definiton, the 10D comes close to being a pro camera. The Rebel is not. If you want to see some real pro stuff, google the 1Ds. Or if you'd like some real sticker shock, check the price of the Phase One P25 (then add $8K USD more for the medium format autofocus camera system to go with it). ;-)
stephencaston - Monday, July 5, 2004 - link
#2, sorry if I didn't make it clear in the article, but on page 3 I did mention that I was using a Canon 50mm Macro lens for all tests. I will add another reference to the lens at the beginning of the image quality tests too.You make a good point though. The quality of the final picture lies in the quality of the lens used. Thats why I decided to use the same 50mm lens for all the tests on both cameras.
DerekWilson - Monday, July 5, 2004 - link
I'm not the resident camera expert (hi Stephen), but these cameras are "prosumer" and not professional ... kinda scary isn't it :-)I liked the article too. Maybe I'm a little biased, but I thought it was both very thurough as well as easy to follow (especially not being a camera guy myself).
shuttleboi - Monday, July 5, 2004 - link
How can you possibly have tests trying to show detail and colour and not even mention the lenses you use?? As any good photographer knows, the lens is far more important than the camera body, even for digital. Did you use the kit 18-55 EF-S for the 300D? That's a horrible lens. Unless you used the same lens for both cameras, your tests are meaningless.Araemo - Monday, July 5, 2004 - link
Great Article, I was very pleased to see you guys are going to do digital camera reviews, since I'm going to be in the market for a camera soon. I hope to see reviews of more 'prosumer' or 'consumer' level cameras, rather than these $1000 cameras.. though I understand you probably get pretty much what you pay for.