@Ian: Thanks for the summary and for coverage of QC's event, also @Andrei. Two questions; Did anybody have comments on the range of mm wavelength 5G when walls or other solid objects were in between hotspots and device? Given the nature of mm radiowaves, even a simple paper pad right in front of the mobile could deteriorate reception drastically. Did you/anybody else try?
The other question concerns the 8cx: yes, it's "for enterprise use", but: I wonder if MS might explore this chip for use in one of their next xBoxes, especially if they are adding a Switch-like portable device to their lineup. That being said, Nintendo might want to take a look at the 8cx for their next Switch, too. Any rumors, overheard conversations? Thanks!
Ah I never did parse what the demo video said in the first keynote. From my notes:
mmWave at 1 Gbps up to 3000 ft away, 800 Mbps at 1/3 mile 800 Mbps with non-line of sight at a few hundred yards 900 Mbps through two US walls
Note we couldn't touch the demos at the event, except to press go. Lots of reflection in the room too.
For the 8cx, no rumors on console use. What's the TDP on the Switch? The chip is designed for fanless notebooks/2-in-1s, so it'll probably do well in a handheld.
Ian, thanks for the reply and information. The TDP of the Tegra X used in the Switch is quoted as 15 Wh and 10 Wh by Nvidia. Since this SoC has both Nvidia graphics and 4 not very efficient A57 big cores, that sounds about right for the Switch's chip, although Nintendo may throttle it for mobile use. However, with those numbers in mind, the 8cx would be right at home in a portable gaming device, and certainly be more than competitive with the now outdated Tegra X.
I would still like to see a head-to-head comparison of an 8cx device with a low to mid-end setup with discreet graphics. QC makes a lot of noise about how beefy the Adreno 680 is; the sheer number of ALUs etc. is certainly much closer to current lower end discreet graphics than to current gen Intel embedded (aside from Iris graphics with Crystal well cache). With Windows ported to ARM, that comparison would now be a lot more apples to apples.
I'm not an engineer or a scientist, I'm just a lowly field technician, but I cannot fathom how the high-frequency technology of 5G mm wavelength radios is going to work worth a damn inside a structure. Even standing in open air with clear LoS the numbers look abysmal to me.
Maybe the manufacturers are hoping and wishing that consumers and businesses will be so starry-eyed for this tech that they'll be willing to pay big money to install a micro-cell every 500 feet, on the roof of ever building, on every lightpole, with a repeater in every internal room.
It looks to me like 5G at this point is little more than fancy, expensive, allegedly-low-latency WiFi. I am yet to see the positive cost/benefit.
One of the use cases Cristiano mentioned was that a location covered in Wi-Fi mesh can have a 5G-to-mesh AP outside the property, so users inside are enabled through that.
That makes sense. Given the power requirements and sensitivity to obstacles, 5G for mobile makes little sense to me. Also, is there any good information on the long-term effects of exposure to mm radiowaves at the much higher power levels 5G devices use? I am not so worried about regular mobile phones, but 5G radiation levels sound a lot higher. Not sure I want to have that so close to my body 12-15 h/day.
I wouldn't be too worried about the mm-wave radiation as far as health effects go. It's still not ionizing by any means, so heating is the only measurable effect it should have.
Would be nice if you asked Qualcomm about the health studies they or any other 5G companies have done on the long term health affects of being exposed to these frequencies?? Or would you rather wait a decade or two when you get cancer and cant figure out why and then you have to poison your body to try and kill your cells that went crazy from the DNA damage this stuff caused? MM is being weaponized by our military, so if you think it doesn't affect human biology you are wrong! https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=122812...
microking4u, are you suggesting that 5g phones will carry enough power to burn people and heat the 1/64 of an inch outer layer of skin in such a way as to eventually cause cancer? I would think people would stop using the phones way before the multiple 2nd or 3rd degree burns could add up to cancer.
People who say that phones cause cancer have to describe scientifically how they believe the DNA of our cells would be damaged by phone signals. the 5g radio waves can excite water, the same as a microwave can do. I would think it highly unlikely the phones are going to output enough power to cause 2nd or 3rd degree burns on people and thereby damage their DNA enabling cancer. You would have to carry around a backpack battery to be able to power a phone with that kind of capability.
director_mr, I am not suggesting it will burn anyone, what I am suggesting is that this technology can cause cellular damage long term just like any form of Radiation can and the fact that it can excite water which is in our cells, we have no idea what kind of damage this technology can cause because they refuse to do the biological testing to prov the safety of this technology. Big money talks more than safety with no ability to profit on testing and any damage it would cause would just cause more questioning of wireless technology in general, there is no incentive to do biological testing unless the FCC regulated it and mandated that it be done. Its unfortunate that our Health always takes a back seat when profit and new technology is involved. We as consumers need to demand this testing be done, do not wait until you get cancer and hope that poisoning your body (Radiation / Chemo) will be a cure!
"Does heat coming from my wife cause cellular damage?" - Probably, especially when she nags and doesn't get her way! lol Easy to support this technology because we are tech enthusiasts, but you have to realize that we are biological beings and not robots, the short term effects are probably ok, but long term we have no clue and we will be the mice they are testing this on.
I'm not an engineer or a scientist, I'm just a lowly field technician, but I cannot fathom how the high-frequency technology of 5G mm wavelength radios is going to work worth a damn inside a structure. Even standing in open air with clear LoS the numbers look abysmal to me.
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eastcoast_pete - Wednesday, December 19, 2018 - link
@Ian: Thanks for the summary and for coverage of QC's event, also @Andrei.Two questions; Did anybody have comments on the range of mm wavelength 5G when walls or other solid objects were in between hotspots and device? Given the nature of mm radiowaves, even a simple paper pad right in front of the mobile could deteriorate reception drastically. Did you/anybody else try?
The other question concerns the 8cx: yes, it's "for enterprise use", but: I wonder if MS might explore this chip for use in one of their next xBoxes, especially if they are adding a Switch-like portable device to their lineup. That being said, Nintendo might want to take a look at the 8cx for their next Switch, too. Any rumors, overheard conversations? Thanks!
Ian Cutress - Wednesday, December 19, 2018 - link
Ah I never did parse what the demo video said in the first keynote. From my notes:mmWave at 1 Gbps up to 3000 ft away, 800 Mbps at 1/3 mile
800 Mbps with non-line of sight at a few hundred yards
900 Mbps through two US walls
Note we couldn't touch the demos at the event, except to press go. Lots of reflection in the room too.
For the 8cx, no rumors on console use. What's the TDP on the Switch? The chip is designed for fanless notebooks/2-in-1s, so it'll probably do well in a handheld.
Death666Angel - Wednesday, December 19, 2018 - link
"through two US walls" it's an easy joke, but I'm still gonna make it: they could've just said "an inch of papier-mâché". :Peastcoast_pete - Friday, December 21, 2018 - link
Ian, thanks for the reply and information. The TDP of the Tegra X used in the Switch is quoted as 15 Wh and 10 Wh by Nvidia. Since this SoC has both Nvidia graphics and 4 not very efficient A57 big cores, that sounds about right for the Switch's chip, although Nintendo may throttle it for mobile use. However, with those numbers in mind, the 8cx would be right at home in a portable gaming device, and certainly be more than competitive with the now outdated Tegra X.zamroni - Thursday, December 20, 2018 - link
Xbox needs strong GPU. I guess Adreno is not up to the task. Yes, it can still use discrete gpu, but it will need AMD/Nvidia to create Arm64 driver.eastcoast_pete - Friday, December 21, 2018 - link
I would still like to see a head-to-head comparison of an 8cx device with a low to mid-end setup with discreet graphics. QC makes a lot of noise about how beefy the Adreno 680 is; the sheer number of ALUs etc. is certainly much closer to current lower end discreet graphics than to current gen Intel embedded (aside from Iris graphics with Crystal well cache). With Windows ported to ARM, that comparison would now be a lot more apples to apples.Ashinjuka - Thursday, December 20, 2018 - link
I'm not an engineer or a scientist, I'm just a lowly field technician, but I cannot fathom how the high-frequency technology of 5G mm wavelength radios is going to work worth a damn inside a structure. Even standing in open air with clear LoS the numbers look abysmal to me.Maybe the manufacturers are hoping and wishing that consumers and businesses will be so starry-eyed for this tech that they'll be willing to pay big money to install a micro-cell every 500 feet, on the roof of ever building, on every lightpole, with a repeater in every internal room.
It looks to me like 5G at this point is little more than fancy, expensive, allegedly-low-latency WiFi. I am yet to see the positive cost/benefit.
Ian Cutress - Thursday, December 20, 2018 - link
One of the use cases Cristiano mentioned was that a location covered in Wi-Fi mesh can have a 5G-to-mesh AP outside the property, so users inside are enabled through that.eastcoast_pete - Friday, December 21, 2018 - link
That makes sense. Given the power requirements and sensitivity to obstacles, 5G for mobile makes little sense to me. Also, is there any good information on the long-term effects of exposure to mm radiowaves at the much higher power levels 5G devices use? I am not so worried about regular mobile phones, but 5G radiation levels sound a lot higher. Not sure I want to have that so close to my body 12-15 h/day.Dolda2000 - Saturday, December 22, 2018 - link
I wouldn't be too worried about the mm-wave radiation as far as health effects go. It's still not ionizing by any means, so heating is the only measurable effect it should have.microking4u - Thursday, December 27, 2018 - link
Would be nice if you asked Qualcomm about the health studies they or any other 5G companies have done on the long term health affects of being exposed to these frequencies?? Or would you rather wait a decade or two when you get cancer and cant figure out why and then you have to poison your body to try and kill your cells that went crazy from the DNA damage this stuff caused?MM is being weaponized by our military, so if you think it doesn't affect human biology you are wrong! https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=122812...
director_mr - Thursday, December 27, 2018 - link
microking4u, are you suggesting that 5g phones will carry enough power to burn people and heat the 1/64 of an inch outer layer of skin in such a way as to eventually cause cancer? I would think people would stop using the phones way before the multiple 2nd or 3rd degree burns could add up to cancer.People who say that phones cause cancer have to describe scientifically how they believe the DNA of our cells would be damaged by phone signals. the 5g radio waves can excite water, the same as a microwave can do. I would think it highly unlikely the phones are going to output enough power to cause 2nd or 3rd degree burns on people and thereby damage their DNA enabling cancer. You would have to carry around a backpack battery to be able to power a phone with that kind of capability.
microking4u - Monday, January 7, 2019 - link
director_mr, I am not suggesting it will burn anyone, what I am suggesting is that this technology can cause cellular damage long term just like any form of Radiation can and the fact that it can excite water which is in our cells, we have no idea what kind of damage this technology can cause because they refuse to do the biological testing to prov the safety of this technology. Big money talks more than safety with no ability to profit on testing and any damage it would cause would just cause more questioning of wireless technology in general, there is no incentive to do biological testing unless the FCC regulated it and mandated that it be done. Its unfortunate that our Health always takes a back seat when profit and new technology is involved. We as consumers need to demand this testing be done, do not wait until you get cancer and hope that poisoning your body (Radiation / Chemo) will be a cure!SirPerro - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
"this technology can cause cellular damage long term just like any form of Radiation can"¿Does FM radio cause cellular damage? ¿Does heat coming from my wife cause cellular damage?
Be careful with the assumptions here.
microking4u - Tuesday, January 8, 2019 - link
"Does heat coming from my wife cause cellular damage?" - Probably, especially when she nags and doesn't get her way! lolEasy to support this technology because we are tech enthusiasts, but you have to realize that we are biological beings and not robots, the short term effects are probably ok, but long term we have no clue and we will be the mice they are testing this on.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC55049...
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/...
https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/7521102473.pdf
https://youtu.be/J0zBoc0cL7I
donatellamiller - Tuesday, January 15, 2019 - link
I'm not an engineer or a scientist, I'm just a lowly field technician, but I cannot fathom how the high-frequency technology of 5G mm wavelength radios is going to work worth a damn inside a structure. Even standing in open air with clear LoS the numbers look abysmal to me.Blokada - Sunday, January 20, 2019 - link
I think they are gonna soon bridge the gap between ios and android. Great going Qualcomm. <a href="https://degreesymbolmac.com/">Degree Symbol</a>Blokada - Sunday, January 20, 2019 - link
I think they are gonna soon bridge the gap between ios and android. Great going Qualcomm. https://degreesymbolmac.com/