<insert inane comments about not wanting to buy Optane anyways because the technology's not specialized for "write endurance", usage in "cold storage" scenario and other memes, despite other specialized storage technologies clearly existing for those explicit use cases>
<insert snarky rebuttal with unwarranted praise of Intel's infallible technical planning followed by unfounded performance claims attesting to Optane's insurmountable performance lead and laced with derogatory comments about the character of any naysayers and their familial relations>
You shouldn't be surprised when you say stupid things and someone brings back up to you. Just stop. If you want cold-storage or write-endurance in your storage solution, look to getting tape drives or helium filled enterprise HDDs, rather than making inane posts in comments sections.
After DDriver, you're the worst repeat poster in Anandtech news articles, and given that DDriver hasn't been posting frequently lately, you're appearing to be the worst right now.
I'm not sure why you feel like there's a reason to antagonize and attempt to pick fights over differing opinions about computer storage technology. It doesn't seem like something worth getting uptight about.
Looks like you're accusing me of shilling for Intel and/or Optane tech. I'm not. I don't own nor do I have any need for this technology in any system I own. If I wanted tiered caching storage, I'd invest in M.2 SSDs OR additional ECC RAM and provision a part of it as a dynamic RAM disk to use as a caching solution for data held on HDDs.
What I want is when Anandtech makes an article about <specialized technology news> for people to stop making inane comments and whining about <speciaized technology isn't specialized for X, Y, Z use-cases>. Yeah, that's pretty blatantly obvious that Optane isn't meant for cold-storage or write endurance when it's specifically a speed-tuned storage solution (which isn't even officially supported as a caching solution in any but intel's latest chipsets, buy now good goy!).
If you have nothing to say about the technology itself, then just don't post. By making overtly inane comments I hope to show you and others that making inane comments to a news article isn't furthering any meritable discussion of what the technology DOES do and what it means for the industry as a whole.
The technology was sold on a blatant lie from the beginning based on every metric. Oy vey, is that an inane comment by JoeyJoJo123's standards? Yes? Oopsie, I dun and gone upset the angelic defender of Optane. Better sit back and wait for the scathing rebuttal while shiverin' in ma boots.
Micron seems to be exploring its Optanes and that seems like an Intel-igent move that gets right to the XPoint in a way that makes the future look fab-ulous.
Now that we've got the extremist views out of the way, we can talk about what this means for Optane and the market. I'm imagining that the cost coming out of an entirely Intel owned fab will be higher than the current IMFT fab. Of course their may be some vertical integration efficiencies to be had to offset that. Given the Intel's current fabrication capacity and demand, things will be tight. Optimistically, if 10nm comes online quickly enough AND older fabs can be converted to handle optane production (memory production != Chipset/CPU production) in time, then the cost may only see minor adjustments. In any case, I'm expecting upward price movement after the switch until the following generatio. It's just a question of how much.
@BurntMyBacon..."Given the Intel's current fabrication capacity and demand"
Intel has a large underutilized 300mm fab in New Mexico. The last major update to the fab was to 32nm logic. It has more recently added R&D and initial production for silicon photonics. Last month Intel announced that they were bringing future memory development to this plant. I imagine this along with the fab in China are the logical places for Intel to produce it's memory once their breakup with Micron is complete.
It means: - Micron will be the only manufacturer of Optane - 3D-Xpoint since Intel needs its fabs for their core CPU business / NAND. Intel is already spread too thin (CPU shortages and all). - Intel will keep developing Optane, but more importantly it will figure out how to use "Optane memory sticks" in Intel servers to provide a 100X(?) addressable memory expansion for specialized workloads. - AMD will eventually do the same by supporting Micron 3D-Xpoint 2rd generation hyper scale RAM on their server, but at a fraction of Intel price. - Everybody will make money: Intel, Micron, AMD and the customers that need such massive amount of "level 2 RAM" - Some PC gamers will buy 3D-Xpoint HDD just because their father will give them the money. But they will have their behind handed to them in Fortnite regardless. Trust me, I'm a futurologist.
Intel can't just up and switch an existing fab to XPoint, it's a rather different chemical process to Silicon IC fabbing so will require extensive retrofitting. The current fab is split 50/50 in capacity between Intel and Micron. Intel are selling every die that can fab, and Micron is... doing something with theirs (which everyone assumes is 'selling them to Intel who actually have buyers'). Whether price needs to move up depends on how long it takes for a fab conversion (or building a whole new fab, depending on just how extensive the modifications are for Chalcogenide processing): Intel now have a 14 month clock to work to before Micron take over the fab, and possibly longer depending on if Intel can muscle them into a limited-time at-cost sale agreement. If that time is not sufficient for Intel to get their own fab up and running, prices may increase, otherwise I'd expect them to decrease with Micron cut out as a middleman for half the production run.
You forget Intel has doubled the clean room of Dalian Fab, so it can meet the production of XPoint easily without retofit Rio Rancho to another chemical process. No problem man.
I think most people on the net are blind about Intel, and don't realize they have other fabs to do the job. Intel would not have sold the lab to Micron if they actually needed it. My guess they have something better to handle the job.
I believe that "people on the net" know that Intel has many high value fabs. They also know that fabs are very expensive and apparently Intel is currently maxed out. Yes, they can convert a fab to produce XPoint (and they need to say so to keep Micron behaving...). But should they? Is that the best use of capex? Is 10nm and stopping EPYC from eating their data center lunch more important? Intel has a lot to deal with already. I don't see an obvious answer forming in my little brain.
I think people like to assume Intel is more expensive and make out and that EPYC is a serious threat. But even though it good to have competition, Intel is a lot bigger than most think. In some ways I think this delay in 10nm and rise of AMD Cpu's and even ARM will be good thing in long run. It gives Intel ambition to focus on the new products and have a product that will significantly better. I am not gullible person that believe just because node size is smaller that it means that it better product.
But lets say next year, Intel comes back with product that is so much better than competition, on both the high end and also lower power (ARM) and then people that hate Intel, will be crying Monopoly, Antitrust and such - but they are the one that cause this.
It would be very foolish to believe Intel is sitting back and doing nothing about this stuff.
All I'm saying is that Intel has a lot on its plate: whatever is after 14nm, CPU shortages, competition from AMD - NVIDIA - ARM - APPLE, a totally new GPU architecture, Optane optimization and customization, new CPU architecture that's cost efficient at >14nm, chipsets, NAND, spectre, meltdown, the ending of Moore law... Maybe, just maybe that ramping up a 3D XPoint Fab is not high priority if Micron is willing and able to keep selling them wafers.
No matter what, you find a way to defend Intel. Even if they were being flushed down the toilet, you'd probably say that it's a good idea, since the toilet needed to be cleaned anyway. I've never encountered someone that was so enamoured with a company that they will justify _anything_ that they do. I really hope you're getting paid for this; you're certainly earning it.
Probably quite a bit more. While Micron might initiate it's takeover in January it's going to take some 6 to 12 months for them to close the separation deal. That separation deal would include pricing future wafers from Micron after the initial 12 months.
Under the Micron/Intel agreements, Intel has 2 more months before Micron can finalize its proposal. Then Intel has 12 more months before the end of the partnership. Still after that, Intel can buy every product from the Micron fab at factory cost, for 12 more months. I guess 26 months from now are quite enough for a leader of chip industry with 15 fabs fully owned around the World to decide how to market the 3D X-Point technology to the consumers.
I see no reasons why a product built in an Intel fab should be more expensive than the same products built in a 50% owned fab who sells chips at a factory cost.
Intel wants channel partners to get behind the company's new Optane memory technology, embrace artificial intelligence and have confidence in its ability to deliver top performance products in the face of the company's 10-nanometer chip delays https://mypremiercreditcard.me.
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JoeyJoJo123 - Monday, October 22, 2018 - link
<insert inane comments about not wanting to buy Optane anyways because the technology's not specialized for "write endurance", usage in "cold storage" scenario and other memes, despite other specialized storage technologies clearly existing for those explicit use cases>BurntMyBacon - Monday, October 22, 2018 - link
<insert snarky rebuttal with unwarranted praise of Intel's infallible technical planning followed by unfounded performance claims attesting to Optane's insurmountable performance lead and laced with derogatory comments about the character of any naysayers and their familial relations>PeachNCream - Monday, October 22, 2018 - link
We are talking about the guy that beat this dead horse in the comments back in 2016:"Moooooooooom! My gamin' laptop needs moar gamin' RAM!!!"
-comment source: https://www.anandtech.com/show/10395/patriot-to-re...
Sometimes, people miss on their path to adulthood.
JoeyJoJo123 - Monday, October 22, 2018 - link
You shouldn't be surprised when you say stupid things and someone brings back up to you. Just stop. If you want cold-storage or write-endurance in your storage solution, look to getting tape drives or helium filled enterprise HDDs, rather than making inane posts in comments sections.After DDriver, you're the worst repeat poster in Anandtech news articles, and given that DDriver hasn't been posting frequently lately, you're appearing to be the worst right now.
PeachNCream - Monday, October 22, 2018 - link
I'm not sure why you feel like there's a reason to antagonize and attempt to pick fights over differing opinions about computer storage technology. It doesn't seem like something worth getting uptight about.JoeyJoJo123 - Monday, October 22, 2018 - link
Looks like you're accusing me of shilling for Intel and/or Optane tech. I'm not. I don't own nor do I have any need for this technology in any system I own. If I wanted tiered caching storage, I'd invest in M.2 SSDs OR additional ECC RAM and provision a part of it as a dynamic RAM disk to use as a caching solution for data held on HDDs.What I want is when Anandtech makes an article about <specialized technology news> for people to stop making inane comments and whining about <speciaized technology isn't specialized for X, Y, Z use-cases>. Yeah, that's pretty blatantly obvious that Optane isn't meant for cold-storage or write endurance when it's specifically a speed-tuned storage solution (which isn't even officially supported as a caching solution in any but intel's latest chipsets, buy now good goy!).
If you have nothing to say about the technology itself, then just don't post. By making overtly inane comments I hope to show you and others that making inane comments to a news article isn't furthering any meritable discussion of what the technology DOES do and what it means for the industry as a whole.
alacard - Monday, October 22, 2018 - link
The technology was sold on a blatant lie from the beginning based on every metric.Oy vey, is that an inane comment by JoeyJoJo123's standards? Yes?
Oopsie, I dun and gone upset the angelic defender of Optane.
Better sit back and wait for the scathing rebuttal while shiverin' in ma boots.
PeachNCream - Monday, October 22, 2018 - link
Micron seems to be exploring its Optanes and that seems like an Intel-igent move that gets right to the XPoint in a way that makes the future look fab-ulous.PaoDeTech - Monday, October 22, 2018 - link
It's a phase changing moment for Micron, at the cross-road it's taking the path with variable resistance.BurntMyBacon - Monday, October 22, 2018 - link
Now that we've got the extremist views out of the way, we can talk about what this means for Optane and the market. I'm imagining that the cost coming out of an entirely Intel owned fab will be higher than the current IMFT fab. Of course their may be some vertical integration efficiencies to be had to offset that. Given the Intel's current fabrication capacity and demand, things will be tight. Optimistically, if 10nm comes online quickly enough AND older fabs can be converted to handle optane production (memory production != Chipset/CPU production) in time, then the cost may only see minor adjustments. In any case, I'm expecting upward price movement after the switch until the following generatio. It's just a question of how much.ilt24 - Monday, October 22, 2018 - link
@BurntMyBacon..."Given the Intel's current fabrication capacity and demand"Intel has a large underutilized 300mm fab in New Mexico. The last major update to the fab was to 32nm logic. It has more recently added R&D and initial production for silicon photonics. Last month Intel announced that they were bringing future memory development to this plant. I imagine this along with the fab in China are the logical places for Intel to produce it's memory once their breakup with Micron is complete.
PaoDeTech - Monday, October 22, 2018 - link
It means:- Micron will be the only manufacturer of Optane - 3D-Xpoint since Intel needs its fabs for their core CPU business / NAND. Intel is already spread too thin (CPU shortages and all).
- Intel will keep developing Optane, but more importantly it will figure out how to use "Optane memory sticks" in Intel servers to provide a 100X(?) addressable memory expansion for specialized workloads.
- AMD will eventually do the same by supporting Micron 3D-Xpoint 2rd generation hyper scale RAM on their server, but at a fraction of Intel price.
- Everybody will make money: Intel, Micron, AMD and the customers that need such massive amount of "level 2 RAM"
- Some PC gamers will buy 3D-Xpoint HDD just because their father will give them the money. But they will have their behind handed to them in Fortnite regardless.
Trust me, I'm a futurologist.
edzieba - Monday, October 22, 2018 - link
Intel can't just up and switch an existing fab to XPoint, it's a rather different chemical process to Silicon IC fabbing so will require extensive retrofitting.The current fab is split 50/50 in capacity between Intel and Micron. Intel are selling every die that can fab, and Micron is... doing something with theirs (which everyone assumes is 'selling them to Intel who actually have buyers'). Whether price needs to move up depends on how long it takes for a fab conversion (or building a whole new fab, depending on just how extensive the modifications are for Chalcogenide processing): Intel now have a 14 month clock to work to before Micron take over the fab, and possibly longer depending on if Intel can muscle them into a limited-time at-cost sale agreement. If that time is not sufficient for Intel to get their own fab up and running, prices may increase, otherwise I'd expect them to decrease with Micron cut out as a middleman for half the production run.
Gondalf - Monday, October 22, 2018 - link
You forget Intel has doubled the clean room of Dalian Fab, so it can meet the production of XPoint easily without retofit Rio Rancho to another chemical process. No problem man.HStewart - Monday, October 22, 2018 - link
I think most people on the net are blind about Intel, and don't realize they have other fabs to do the job. Intel would not have sold the lab to Micron if they actually needed it. My guess they have something better to handle the job.PaoDeTech - Monday, October 22, 2018 - link
I believe that "people on the net" know that Intel has many high value fabs. They also know that fabs are very expensive and apparently Intel is currently maxed out. Yes, they can convert a fab to produce XPoint (and they need to say so to keep Micron behaving...). But should they? Is that the best use of capex? Is 10nm and stopping EPYC from eating their data center lunch more important? Intel has a lot to deal with already. I don't see an obvious answer forming in my little brain.HStewart - Monday, October 22, 2018 - link
I think people like to assume Intel is more expensive and make out and that EPYC is a serious threat. But even though it good to have competition, Intel is a lot bigger than most think. In some ways I think this delay in 10nm and rise of AMD Cpu's and even ARM will be good thing in long run. It gives Intel ambition to focus on the new products and have a product that will significantly better. I am not gullible person that believe just because node size is smaller that it means that it better product.But lets say next year, Intel comes back with product that is so much better than competition, on both the high end and also lower power (ARM) and then people that hate Intel, will be crying Monopoly, Antitrust and such - but they are the one that cause this.
It would be very foolish to believe Intel is sitting back and doing nothing about this stuff.
PaoDeTech - Monday, October 22, 2018 - link
All I'm saying is that Intel has a lot on its plate: whatever is after 14nm, CPU shortages, competition from AMD - NVIDIA - ARM - APPLE, a totally new GPU architecture, Optane optimization and customization, new CPU architecture that's cost efficient at >14nm, chipsets, NAND, spectre, meltdown, the ending of Moore law... Maybe, just maybe that ramping up a 3D XPoint Fab is not high priority if Micron is willing and able to keep selling them wafers.sa666666 - Monday, October 22, 2018 - link
No matter what, you find a way to defend Intel. Even if they were being flushed down the toilet, you'd probably say that it's a good idea, since the toilet needed to be cleaned anyway. I've never encountered someone that was so enamoured with a company that they will justify _anything_ that they do. I really hope you're getting paid for this; you're certainly earning it.ilt24 - Monday, October 22, 2018 - link
@edzieba...." Intel now have a 14 month clock "Probably quite a bit more. While Micron might initiate it's takeover in January it's going to take some 6 to 12 months for them to close the separation deal. That separation deal would include pricing future wafers from Micron after the initial 12 months.
Kamgusta - Friday, October 26, 2018 - link
Under the Micron/Intel agreements, Intel has 2 more months before Micron can finalize its proposal. Then Intel has 12 more months before the end of the partnership. Still after that, Intel can buy every product from the Micron fab at factory cost, for 12 more months.I guess 26 months from now are quite enough for a leader of chip industry with 15 fabs fully owned around the World to decide how to market the 3D X-Point technology to the consumers.
Kamgusta - Friday, October 26, 2018 - link
I see no reasons why a product built in an Intel fab should be more expensive than the same products built in a 50% owned fab who sells chips at a factory cost.HStewart - Monday, October 22, 2018 - link
I think it very simple, Micron fab does not make much in terms of Intel Production - which means they have other means to handle it.It looks like Intel has been cleaning some of fat in production area so they can meet demands next year - keep in mind 2019 is only 2 1/2 months away.
shabby - Monday, October 22, 2018 - link
What did intel know about roadmaps? Hah!shabby - Monday, October 22, 2018 - link
Err did=doesCaitlin345 - Tuesday, November 20, 2018 - link
Intel wants channel partners to get behind the company's new Optane memory technology, embrace artificial intelligence and have confidence in its ability to deliver top performance products in the face of the company's 10-nanometer chip delays https://mypremiercreditcard.me.