Is there any reduction in performance from the (3?) potential configurations of VRMs you mentioned? Ganged together (like this MSI board?) Doubled up More Phases
It looks like MSI put a lot of components on the board, surely it was not all for waste?
Not really figuratively speaking, not in real-world scenarios at stock settings at least. Example - Looking at it from a different perspective, say in the engine of a car. It would be like a car maker putting a 6-cylinder engine in a car, but the 6-cylinders are operating in pairs meaning each cylinder is doubled with the same capacity of a 3-cylinder engine. The manufacturer is advertising it has 6-cylinders because in theory and on the engine, there is 6...and the car might still do 70mph (UK), but if you tried to go 100mph for whatever reason, it might not give you the expected results as a 'true' 6-cylinder might.
I hope this makes sense, I've not had much sleep and my brain is in overload :D
In that case, what's the benefit of the doubled setup? In your engine analogy; What's the advantage to have 6 cylinders operate is if they were 3 compared to just having 3 and cutting costs?
Less thermal load on each cylinder, and you can get away with cheaper... spark plugs... That doesn't work. But if need a switching frequency of 600mhz on one chip or 300mhz on two chips staggered by a half cycle to SIMULATE 600mhz, you can get the job done cheaper. (for VRMs your actual power efficiency/noise performance can be sensitive to heat, and indeed all ICs die sooner when ran hotter)
Sometimes the variation can give different results in POV-Ray when overclocked. This has been the case over multiple boards (on the majority of chipsets). I might look further into this when things settle back down in the next couple of weeks and I might add a second overclocked test on top of POV-Ray in future reviews.
Thermal throttling? Also, although it may not impact POV-Ray, different boards will set RAM settings differently. Also, is the same set of RAM used in both tests (this board and Taichi)?
Depending on what happens with AMD's roadmap into 2019, we might get a sample in for review as we've seen quite a few different mini-ITX boards from different vendors on AM4; would make sense to test the B450 Gaming ITX/ac too! All depends on time really
B450 pro carbon AC all the way, very close to same price and MUCH better overall build quality..one would figure a "top end" chipset would not be trying to cut things down just to make potential sales when there are many options that are readily available, why add tons more choices and instead settle on making those choices as best as they possibly can be.
they could have for example completely made no RGB added a few USB ports (like USB2 or "standard" USB3.1a support) or even used that price difference to use the much better 1220a audio (like found on the B450 gaming pro carbon AC) or even put more higher quality VRM or beefier heatsink design...RGB should not be a "direct focus" when they are trying to cut corners to hit a lower MSRP level, if anything RGB should be the "last" focus in that regard.
VRM, good amount of USB, real good heatsink design, great audio and so forth IMO are vastly more beneficial then disco light show RGB...am sure some folks like it being "on board" but many of those same people add their own lighting ANYWAYS...maybe a dedicated couple of sockets for powering user added lighting might be "ok" but disco light show soaking up a chunk of BOM in most cases is stupid.
new craze of bleed eyeballs with lighting needs to die horrible death, creating more waste and problems with software/hardware and cutting back quality to be able to do it, benefits few people and harms the rest for nothing.
B450 Pro Carbon AC looks good on paper, but I'm a big fan of the B450 Tomahawk (review coming soon) - Not as flashy, bit cheaper and probably more than any gamer is going to use with a single graphics card installed!
I am continually amazed at what motherboard manufacturers can produce at these price levels. The materials, technology, and effort that goes into putting something like this on a retail shelf is mind-boggling. If it cost $1K I could hardly argue, considering what it takes. $120 seems like a giveaway - a planter stand for my backyard costs the same. This must be one of the toughest markets in the world.
Gavin, thanks for highlighting the fact that board makers can be very flexible with their descriptions of board features (is it to the point of being misleading)? Just wanted to add that Buildzoid/Actual Hardcore Overclocking has been digging into the state of B450/X470 boards recently with a deep dive into the VRM setups... My take away so far is that the MSI boards appear to be fairly well setup for their price compared to others, but there is a board out there for every usage scenario/price point you want more you pay more as with all things in life :)
Back in the LGA775 days, MSI sold a high-end motherboard called the P6N Diamond that was advertised to have support for quad-core CPUs. Except they skimped on the power delivery circuitry, so "support" meant "if you use a quad-core your system will randomly reboot itself".
There really doesn't appear to be a great deal of difference between the Plus and the supposedly better pro version of this motherboard.. and typically, the pro can be had for in and around the same price. I like their Pro Carbon board tho as it's just better all around with more features (better lan/sound to) that imo are worth the little extra you pay.
I do have to say that I've been very impressed with MSI's Ryzen MB offerings. The 300 and 400 series have been problem free for me and performed like champs whereas I've had some issues with Gigabyte and Asus offerings in those chipsets.
"MSI do include an 8-pin 12V ATX power input for providing power to the CPU as well as an additional 4-pin for users looking to overclock their processors."
Buildzoid says these additional power connectors are useless for Ryzen, as I recall. It's not possible to draw more than one power connector can provide, particularly given the anemic VRM setup here.
"This board does have an additional 4-pin available on top of the 8-pin ATX 12 V CPU power input and MSI advertises an 11-phase power delivery under the heatsinks. Underneath the heatsinks, there is an 11-phase VRM present, but the real configuration is revealed in our visual inspection of the board."
Gavbon, all the AMD MBs you have reviewed are misrepresenting their amount of power phases AFAIK, is their any way for a consumer to check this before purchasing? Does/has the lack of power phases adversely affected the non-overclocked performance of AMD's top chips? You see, I'm planning to upgrade next year, and I think that this is important.
For the most part it doesn't matter much unless you're doing extreme ocing. Anything 4 phases and higher with a heatsink is usually gonna be fine for a 6 core and for an 8 core preferably you'd like something a bit beefier to handle the extra power requirements without potentially getting too hot (a fake 8 phase like the gaming plus would probably be fine because the extra fets means more max power the vrm can supply and also greater surface area to dissipate heat through)
Agree with 29a. Why haven't you updated the test bed with (at least) a 2700? I doubt people buying these boards are paring them with 1st gen CPUs.
Also, in the future could you disable Core Performance Boost and run some benches to see the difference in performance, please? FYI, My 2600 runs at 3.4 when it's disabled, and 3.9 when enabled; I have a MSI B450 Gaming Plus mATX.
I've been so disappointed with MSI. I had a former generation 990FXA-GD80 and it has been rock solid from the get go. It had Military class 4 Caps and all bells and whistles.
I got this board to upgrade along with a 2600X and the A2 Dimm port was dead, great. I returned the board and get another one after I called support and guess what, same Dimm port was also dead.
I returned the CPU and board, no more MSI for me.
So this board may be great when working but for me, I'll wait and will get a x570 when out, from Asus. Never had issues with Asus...we'll see.
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jeremyshaw - Thursday, October 4, 2018 - link
Is there any reduction in performance from the (3?) potential configurations of VRMs you mentioned?Ganged together (like this MSI board?)
Doubled up
More Phases
It looks like MSI put a lot of components on the board, surely it was not all for waste?
gavbon - Thursday, October 4, 2018 - link
Not really figuratively speaking, not in real-world scenarios at stock settings at least. Example - Looking at it from a different perspective, say in the engine of a car. It would be like a car maker putting a 6-cylinder engine in a car, but the 6-cylinders are operating in pairs meaning each cylinder is doubled with the same capacity of a 3-cylinder engine. The manufacturer is advertising it has 6-cylinders because in theory and on the engine, there is 6...and the car might still do 70mph (UK), but if you tried to go 100mph for whatever reason, it might not give you the expected results as a 'true' 6-cylinder might.I hope this makes sense, I've not had much sleep and my brain is in overload :D
casperes1996 - Thursday, October 4, 2018 - link
In that case, what's the benefit of the doubled setup? In your engine analogy; What's the advantage to have 6 cylinders operate is if they were 3 compared to just having 3 and cutting costs?Scabies - Thursday, October 4, 2018 - link
Less thermal load on each cylinder, and you can get away with cheaper... spark plugs...That doesn't work. But if need a switching frequency of 600mhz on one chip or 300mhz on two chips staggered by a half cycle to SIMULATE 600mhz, you can get the job done cheaper.
(for VRMs your actual power efficiency/noise performance can be sensitive to heat, and indeed all ICs die sooner when ran hotter)
Spoelie - Friday, October 5, 2018 - link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IjWCOXSuKUThis one explains it thoroughly
Oxford Guy - Friday, October 5, 2018 - link
But useless car analogies are so much better, right?uibo - Thursday, October 4, 2018 - link
Why are the overclocked POV-Ray scores at 4000MHz lower than for the ASRock X470 Taichi Ultimate in your review?https://www.anandtech.com/show/12666/the-asrock-x4...
gavbon - Thursday, October 4, 2018 - link
Sometimes the variation can give different results in POV-Ray when overclocked. This has been the case over multiple boards (on the majority of chipsets). I might look further into this when things settle back down in the next couple of weeks and I might add a second overclocked test on top of POV-Ray in future reviews.Oxford Guy - Friday, October 5, 2018 - link
Thermal throttling? Also, although it may not impact POV-Ray, different boards will set RAM settings differently. Also, is the same set of RAM used in both tests (this board and Taichi)?Soybean0 - Thursday, October 4, 2018 - link
I think B450 Gaming ITX/ac is not 6+2 but 3+2 phrases. From the data sheet of ISL95712, it can only handle 4+3 max.gavbon - Thursday, October 4, 2018 - link
Depending on what happens with AMD's roadmap into 2019, we might get a sample in for review as we've seen quite a few different mini-ITX boards from different vendors on AM4; would make sense to test the B450 Gaming ITX/ac too! All depends on time reallyDragonstongue - Thursday, October 4, 2018 - link
B450 pro carbon AC all the way, very close to same price and MUCH better overall build quality..one would figure a "top end" chipset would not be trying to cut things down just to make potential sales when there are many options that are readily available, why add tons more choices and instead settle on making those choices as best as they possibly can be.they could have for example completely made no RGB added a few USB ports (like USB2 or "standard" USB3.1a support) or even used that price difference to use the much better 1220a audio (like found on the B450 gaming pro carbon AC) or even put more higher quality VRM or beefier heatsink design...RGB should not be a "direct focus" when they are trying to cut corners to hit a lower MSRP level, if anything RGB should be the "last" focus in that regard.
VRM, good amount of USB, real good heatsink design, great audio and so forth IMO are vastly more beneficial then disco light show RGB...am sure some folks like it being "on board" but many of those same people add their own lighting ANYWAYS...maybe a dedicated couple of sockets for powering user added lighting might be "ok" but disco light show soaking up a chunk of BOM in most cases is stupid.
new craze of bleed eyeballs with lighting needs to die horrible death, creating more waste and problems with software/hardware and cutting back quality to be able to do it, benefits few people and harms the rest for nothing.
gavbon - Thursday, October 4, 2018 - link
B450 Pro Carbon AC looks good on paper, but I'm a big fan of the B450 Tomahawk (review coming soon) - Not as flashy, bit cheaper and probably more than any gamer is going to use with a single graphics card installed!drexnx - Thursday, October 4, 2018 - link
are the RGBLEDs in this (and the B450 tomahawk as well) true 16.7 million colors capable, or gimped with only 7 color choices like the B350 tomahawk?Arbie - Thursday, October 4, 2018 - link
I am continually amazed at what motherboard manufacturers can produce at these price levels. The materials, technology, and effort that goes into putting something like this on a retail shelf is mind-boggling. If it cost $1K I could hardly argue, considering what it takes. $120 seems like a giveaway - a planter stand for my backyard costs the same. This must be one of the toughest markets in the world.Oxford Guy - Friday, October 5, 2018 - link
Especially considering how much they pay marketeers to come up with new deceptive advertising.WatcherCK - Thursday, October 4, 2018 - link
Gavin, thanks for highlighting the fact that board makers can be very flexible with their descriptions of board features (is it to the point of being misleading)? Just wanted to add that Buildzoid/Actual Hardcore Overclocking has been digging into the state of B450/X470 boards recently with a deep dive into the VRM setups... My take away so far is that the MSI boards appear to be fairly well setup for their price compared to others, but there is a board out there for every usage scenario/price point you want more you pay more as with all things in life :)Oxford Guy - Friday, October 5, 2018 - link
"board makers can be very flexible with their descriptions of board features"... a roundabout way of saying they lie.
The_Assimilator - Thursday, October 4, 2018 - link
Back in the LGA775 days, MSI sold a high-end motherboard called the P6N Diamond that was advertised to have support for quad-core CPUs. Except they skimped on the power delivery circuitry, so "support" meant "if you use a quad-core your system will randomly reboot itself".Good to see things haven't changed.
Galcobar - Thursday, October 4, 2018 - link
The overview page states the HDMI connector is 1.4, while the every other mention states it is 2.0.just4U - Friday, October 5, 2018 - link
There really doesn't appear to be a great deal of difference between the Plus and the supposedly better pro version of this motherboard.. and typically, the pro can be had for in and around the same price. I like their Pro Carbon board tho as it's just better all around with more features (better lan/sound to) that imo are worth the little extra you pay.I do have to say that I've been very impressed with MSI's Ryzen MB offerings. The 300 and 400 series have been problem free for me and performed like champs whereas I've had some issues with Gigabyte and Asus offerings in those chipsets.
Oxford Guy - Friday, October 5, 2018 - link
"MSI do include an 8-pin 12V ATX power input for providing power to the CPU as well as an additional 4-pin for users looking to overclock their processors."Buildzoid says these additional power connectors are useless for Ryzen, as I recall. It's not possible to draw more than one power connector can provide, particularly given the anemic VRM setup here.
"This board does have an additional 4-pin available on top of the 8-pin ATX 12 V CPU power input and MSI advertises an 11-phase power delivery under the heatsinks. Underneath the heatsinks, there is an 11-phase VRM present, but the real configuration is revealed in our visual inspection of the board."
Umm.... No.
ballsystemlord - Sunday, October 7, 2018 - link
Gavbon, all the AMD MBs you have reviewed are misrepresenting their amount of power phases AFAIK, is their any way for a consumer to check this before purchasing?Does/has the lack of power phases adversely affected the non-overclocked performance of AMD's top chips?
You see, I'm planning to upgrade next year, and I think that this is important.
Dr. Swag - Sunday, October 7, 2018 - link
For the most part it doesn't matter much unless you're doing extreme ocing. Anything 4 phases and higher with a heatsink is usually gonna be fine for a 6 core and for an 8 core preferably you'd like something a bit beefier to handle the extra power requirements without potentially getting too hot (a fake 8 phase like the gaming plus would probably be fine because the extra fets means more max power the vrm can supply and also greater surface area to dissipate heat through)29a - Sunday, October 7, 2018 - link
Why was the testing done with a 980 and a 1700?Lazlo Panaflex - Monday, October 8, 2018 - link
Agree with 29a. Why haven't you updated the test bed with (at least) a 2700? I doubt people buying these boards are paring them with 1st gen CPUs.Also, in the future could you disable Core Performance Boost and run some benches to see the difference in performance, please? FYI, My 2600 runs at 3.4 when it's disabled, and 3.9 when enabled; I have a MSI B450 Gaming Plus mATX.
Thanks
LP
Frenchyaz - Tuesday, April 9, 2019 - link
I've been so disappointed with MSI. I had a former generation 990FXA-GD80 and it has been rock solid from the get go. It had Military class 4 Caps and all bells and whistles.I got this board to upgrade along with a 2600X and the A2 Dimm port was dead, great. I returned the board and get another one after I called support and guess what, same Dimm port was also dead.
I returned the CPU and board, no more MSI for me.
So this board may be great when working but for me, I'll wait and will get a x570 when out, from Asus. Never had issues with Asus...we'll see.