If you are gaming with the volume up, then it is a non-issue. On a comparative basis, it is much better than the ZBOX EK71080, but, not as good as the liquid cooled ZBOX E-series. I would say it is as loud as the Skull Canyon - but, it doesn't enter the noisy territory as much. Some hard numbers on the Skull Canyon can be found here : https://www.reddit.com/r/intelnuc/comments/7ga2q9/...
This would be a nice 1 fit solution for an arcade emulator cabinet. No issues with lower resolution and could essentially run anything you throw at it!
That's still a lot. Yes it's fairly capable. But for $1300-1400, you can build a much more capable desktop. Yes it'll be larger. But I think space is hardly the issue for most unless you're looking for a LAN machine.
Seriously, this is essentially an iGPU. 4K? Be reasonable. It’s actually quite amazing how powerful this is to be able to match a GTX 970 at 1080p and surpass a 980 at lower resolutions.
Can’t wait to see these in light gaming notebooks. No reason you couldn’t power the system with a 130w PSU, meaning USB-C powered.
To be fair, this is not a traditional IGP. This is a Radeon Vega chip with 24 CUs, 1536 shader units, and 64 ROP's connected to 4GB of HBM2. It's attached to the Intel CPU via 8 PCIE lanes over an interposer, and is two chips + HBM assembled into one unit.
This is barely passable at 1080p. For older titles in early dx11 and lower it will be fine, but this isn't a modern gaming box by any stretch of the imagination. I bet it would be close to on par with an original ps4 performance.
That's pretty objectively false. In most benchmarks, it is, as the review mentions, slotting between a GTX 960 and GTX 980. Realistically, it's somewhere in the realm of a GTX 970 or a bit less which puts it, again, in the realm of the GTX 1050 Ti to RX 470. Both of those would be significantly more powerful than the PS4 Original.
Even from a mathematical perspective, 24CUs at up to 1190 MHz vs 18 CUs at 800MHz is pretty self explanatory.
Keep in mind - in truth the Kaby Lake G is actually intended for a mobile CPU - in that arena - it very good. Especially that it also intended to be in ultra portable market.
It costs 1000. And that’s retail. It will likely be on sale for 700 in a few months. Adding $80 in RAM and $100 512GB SSD like the drive Mushkin just announced keeps it safely under $1200.
$1700 configured price has no influence on the gaming performance of this machine.
So not testing it against any relevant GPU because serving the reader is less important that selling hardware for the modern pseud-press. Typical for AT, God forbid test an ultrabook vs other laptops or a Surface in gaming. Mislead, bend reality to sell the hardware and that's your job. Objectivity, ethics, decency, those are long gone.
I don't agree with the way the "protest" was made, but the fact is that you guys managed to not compare to a single one of the discrete GPUs that Kaby Lake proposes to compete with (as seen through Intel's own slides about Kaby Lake G): the notebook GTX1060, GTX1060 Max-Q and GTX 1050 Ti.
Instead you compared Kaby G with a bunch of 3-4 year-old Maxwell solutions and GP104 discrete cards that are very obviously out of Kaby G's range.
@jjj - Silly rants are supposed to be posted in Wccftech, not here. And mainstream GPUs were addressed: "... the Radeon GPU slotted between the GTX 960 and GTX 980 in terms of performance." If you really need +/- 1 FPS for some specific GPU, there are lots of results here you can use to compare. The question with a box like this is not whether it beats a desktop, but whether it will run advanced games at all. Question answered. Go take your meds.
On traditional KBL systems, you are right about iGPU handling PlayReady 3.0 video decoding.
On the Hades Canyon, it appears that the Vega GPU is handling it. I have updated the '4K HTPC Credentials' section with the appropriate text after capturing the screenshot below:
I've built two Intel NUC's for family members in the past couple of years and they love them. Fast, quiet and so far reliable. They don't game at all which is why I convinced them to buy them. I'm not sure if this NUC is going to be popular at all though at $1,000 barebones. Who is going to buy it? The gaming performance of this NUC is nothing special, gamers and enthusiasts are going to stick with desktops, alot of people are just waiting for the cryptocurrency craze to die down so we can get video cards at decent prices again. If that takes another year or 2 so be it.
Your average person that just needs an office computer won't buy this at $1k, you can get a much cheaper NUC and throw in a SSD and that will work fine. Why pay a premium for a cute little powerful box, if you want small and portable you can get a laptop for cheaper. If they would have priced this at $600 barebones it would have been much more appealing to your average user that might want to play the occasional game at 1080P.
Nuc's have always been geared as thing clients for businesses. It's a niche market that pretty much just wants reliability and 'good enough' performance. I don't see many people loading up on the $1700 version like we see here, but Intel will get good sales from the lowest tier when ordered by the hundreds for large companies.
I bought the Skull Canyon version last year at a good discount on newegg. I am very happy with it and intel’s support (for at least the skull canyon) has been great with a dedicated website and easy to find updates, firmware and drivers. I have it mounted behind my monitor and use it as my main PC. I’m sure that although the retail price on these is $999, you will be able to find it for much less in a few months time.
For the love of god Ganesh, please, PLEASE give us proper teardowns of the units you review. That means taking the damh things apart and showing us what all the bits look like, NOT just removing the lid that allows you to access the user-upgradable bits.
We see the system reach 230W under Prime95 + FurMark. I am checking with Intel on the exact reason for that, given no USB peripherals were connected.
Each Thunderbolt 3 port can provide 15W. The rest depends on the specifications of the Thunderbolt display you are talking about - to the best of my knowledge no USB-powered *Thunderbolt* display exists.
Most CPUs and GPUs are specced for instantaneous and even reasonably long-term power draw in excess of their TDP, which is more of a long-term cooling target (hence the *thermal* design part of the acronym). Then you have to supply power to ports, RAM, SSDs, etc. It all adds up fast. This is also one reason laptop tend to lack large numbers of high-powered USB/Thunderbolt ports.
So routing display outputs through the AMD graphics was a choice by Intel for this specific machine? Hopefully Dell and other manufacturers won't do the same in laptops like the XPS 15 2-in-1, it would be crazy to cut off access to Intel's decode blocks for things like Youtube in a laptop.
This is too expensive. The Dell 7000 gaming laptop is closer to 1000$ (gtx1060) and will do better in all the games. I cannot think of one reason to by this NUC over the laptop. This NUC should have been priced at ~600$ barebones
The price really is way too high right now compared to a laptop if your focus is gaming. If you need a LAN party portable box, a laptop is usually a better option anyway since the screen and keyboard aren't additional components you'll have to take with you. Because the NUC is so small, it lacks the upgrade advantages offered by a desktop form factor so you're basically dealing with an overpriced, screenless laptop. I'm all for the technology at the heart of the new NUC, but you're absolutely right that it needs to start at $600.
I was hoping so much from this machine, ready to buy, only to be disappointed.
No Titan Ridge TB3 (DP 1.4) No UHD-BD playback TB3 not connected to CPU UHS-1 only card reader, no UHS-II Issues with storage bandwidth since Spectre/Meltdown issues, no in-silicon fix (I know, 2nd half 2018). Disappointing WiFi speed, no BT 5, even if M.2 changed no aerial. Hardware decoding/codec issues etc.
Apple does this pretty regularly. But last I knew, everyone else had to go through the PCH due to Windows / UEFI limitations. Which is a bummer because of the additional latency and clear potential for bandwidth contention.
“We can actually see that the codec support from the Intel side is miles ahead of the Radeon's capabilities.”
This is misinformed at best, and categorically false at worse. I have been using a Ryzen 5 2400G, on an ASRock AB350 Gaming-ITX/ac motherboard to drive an HDMI 2.0 4K display at 12-bit (yes, despite lacking formal certification, HDMI 2.0 works flawlessly on 300-series motherboards). I successfully can play back various hefty video material, including HEVC in the form of lossless MKV rips of my UHD Blu-rays, and VP9. Moreover, the color, deblocking, and scaling is far superior in terms of pure optical fidelity to the Intel Skull Canyon NUC’s hazy, unrefined hardware decoding solution. Also, I could go at length about the dropout and timing issues of Intel’s HD Graphics with various high-end AV receivers (Marantz, Denon, and Yamaha) that I have had (e.g. timing issues from their onboard DP-to-HDMI converters causing DAC and sound processing to operate in a compatibility mode with 16-bit sound depth). Suffice it to say, from an objective standpoint, Intel’s NUCs are utter trash, littered with issues, that fall far short from being serious home theater solutions.
" misinformed at best, and categorically false at worse" Yes, you are.
"HDMI 2.0 works flawlessly on 300-series motherboards" Congrats on discovering the obvious. Nobody claimed otherwise
"successfully can play back various hefty video material, including HEVC" So can intel, better and at lower power. Isn't it sad that the radeon can't do VP9 or netflix?
"color, deblocking, and scaling is far superior" Sure. Everything just looks so wrong on intel. Certainly takes a special snowflake like you to notice, good job.
"Marantz, Denon, and Yamaha" Nobody cares.
Rabid angry people like you are funny, do you really think anyone is going to read or care about your comment? Go away LOL
“Congrats on discovering the obvious. Nobody claimed otherwise”
This is also false. Many reviews online of the Ryzen Raven Ridge APUs claimed that HDMI 2.0 support was yet non-existent given that most motherboard manufacturers state only HDMI 1.4 for their 300-series AM4 boards. This concerned many users, but after thorough research and testing (see here: smallformfactor (dot) net /forum/threads/raven-ridge-hdmi-2-0-compatibility-1st-gen-am4-motherboard-test-request-megathread.6709/ ; I am the one who started the thread and led its discussion), it was concluded that all current motherboards work without limitations or issue regardless of the published specifications. I will also ignore the passive-aggressive sarcasm and sentiment laced in-between the lines from the “Congrats” to the “LOL.” Please be less rabid and angry, and more people will take your seriously.
The Radeon GPU CAN NOT do VP9 Profile 2 - so you will NEVER get YouTube HDR on the. No PAVP. QuickSync ecosystem support is way ahead of Radeon VCE. So, tell me why I am wrong in saying that the Intel iGPU is miles ahead of the Radeon Vega ? Any neutral industry observer can see that I am completely justified in making those claims.
I am not talking about Ryzen APUs - I am talking about the Radeon GPU in the Core i7-8809G, as utilized in the NUC8i7HVK.
Way to take Ganesh's statement out of context to push in your own VEGA UBER ALLES viewpoint. He was very obviously talking about the video playback capabilities of Vega, which are objectively inferior to Intel's.
As a neutral industry observer myself, I have had to build with discrete graphics in ITX cases (with both Intel and AMD CPUs) because of the timing and handshaking issues of Intel NUCs’ DP-to-HDMI converters. I have no major qualms with Intel as CPU company; it is their graphics solutions that I am not fond of and well familiar with as being compromised.
Not denying that the NUC's HDMI ports have some compatibility issues, but, to their credit, they have been very responsive and tried to figure out fixes (I spent almost 6 months last year trying to get their KBL NUC to work with the 4K TV in my testbed).
Every vendor has some problem or the other. In my experience, NVIDIA has one of the best generic solutions for multimedia systems, but, Intel wins out in niche use-cases (YouTube HDR, for example). Less said about AMD, the better - their drivers for multimedia functions turned from good to bad to worse, and I don't think I have done any HTPC testing on AMD GPU-based system in the last couple of years - they basically haven't released anything competitive in that segment, to be honest. Hopefully, that changes with the Ryzen APUs, but, I can't say for sure unless it undergoes a thorough evaluation.
Multiple readers email me with request for guidance on what to buy from a HTPC perspective. In most cases, I point them towards some NUC-based solution. Feedback after purchase has never been negative.
“Less said about AMD, the better - their drivers for multimedia functions turned from good to bad to worse,”
Please qualify this with an example. I and others at SmallFormFactor forums are using the Raven Ridge APUs, and I have had no issues with Kodi, MPC-BE and MadVR for 12-bit UHD home theater duty. Saying current generation AMD graphics drivers are bad and worse is just as inaccurate as saying Intel HD Graphics are good for nothing except Solitaire—both signify naïveté with either products.
“In most cases, I point them towards some NUC-based solution. Feedback after purchase has never been negative.”
I kindly point you to this thread, 674 replies and counting, responses comprised mostly of complaints. There have been droves of disgruntled NUC users this last generation. Intel NUCs have been awful, and many have abandoned them for alternative small form factor products.
Example, right now with Vega GPU in Hades Canyon :
Use VLC 3.0.1 with default preferences on Windows 10 latest stable release and attempt to play back an interlaced MPEG2 clip - the video output is blank and only the audio plays. The same scenario in systems using the KBL iGPU or NVIDIA GPUs is absolutely fine.
Now, if the VLC developers have to do something special to make code that works for both Intel iGPU and NVIDIA GPU, I have to unfortunately say it is AMD's driver that is at fault for having undefined behavior in their video decode acceleration or rendering API.
If you play only one type of codec and it works great for that, it doesn't mean the drivers are flawless.
AMD drivers were good when their PR team was trying to promote the HQV benchmark for the HTPC market. They started turning bad around the AMD 7000 series where their DXVA APIs used to result in BSODs when people attempted to use them. And, after that, I got disillusioned with AMD's GPU for HTPC duties and stopped recommending them. Ryzen might be different - I haven't tested it yet. But, based on my experience in Hades Canyon, I am not very bullish.
NUC-based, from my perspective, is any UCFF PC based on the -U series. In the KBL-U generation, my first recommendation has always been the ASRock Beebox-S 7200U, followed by the NUC7i7BNH : Both of them have got very good feedback from people I recommended them to. Btw, the incompatibility issue that I had with the NUC7i7BNH and the TCL 55P607 in HDR mode was actually fixed after a silent firmware update on the TV side. The blame is not on one supplier (holding no torch for Intel here, I am just saying that no one manufacturer can be blamed all the time).
VLC is well-known to be a overly processor intensive program (or CPU hog; see here: pcworld (dot) com/article/3023430/hardware/tested-vlc-vs-windows-10-video-player-the-winner-may-surprise-you.html ) and due to this in more recent years, many videophiles moved along to MPC-HC and MPC-BE. I do not understand why many computer geeks still insist on it. I have used the MPC twin programs for over five years now and have had no issues for codec usage with either, which rely on LAV filters. Last I used VLC, it used more than double the CPU usage, it had worse image scaling than the forks of MPC, and file support was just as good if not superior. Honestly, VLC was a great solution a decade ago, but times have changed and I now highly recommend and always use the MPC products. I cannot see any reason why to insist on VLC at this point especially with the problems you mention which I never encountered in the MPC forked projects.
All those references to VLC are pre-3.0 release. With 3.0, VLC had a major overhaul. That is the reason why I never touched VLC in my earlier systems reviews, but started doing so with the ones from this month.
The new release is very power efficient - as good as a lean MPC-HC + LAV Filters configuration. I believe they have done an excellent job, and will be using VLC moving forward (in addition to Kodi and MPC-HC / madVR).
Like it or not, it is the geeks and the nerds who use MPC-HC. The mass market still uses Kodi and VLC (despite the latter's inefficiencies pre-3.0).
I respectfully disagree. Many home theater users I know use Kodi in combination with MPC-HC or MPC-BE, due to MadVR highly superior scaling abilities. Check the Kodi forums. This is a very popular configuration:
forum (dot) kodi (dot) tv/showthread.php?tid=209596
Check out this thread. Many reference it. Perhaps you should as welll in going forward:
forum (dot) doom9 (dot) org/showthread.php?t=171787
I have tried VLC 3.0 and CPU usage and image quality are still inferior to MPC-HC and MPC-BE. For these reasons, it is still not worth recommending.
The claim was about codec support. Just by looking at the DXVA charts it's pretty clear the Intel IGP has better codec support. Hardware decode is pretty important for most people looking for a box to sit near their TV.
Of course, you may be right that the Ryzen 5 is a better solution overall if you're willing to sacrifice UHD Blu-ray and some hardware decode ability.
People use Blu-Ray when they want to view the best possible video AND audio quality on something other than their laptop with a 1280x768 17" screen that's on shared wi-fi.
Can Linux run on this? Ubuntu? Is their driver support? I can run Ubuntu on my current NUC but was wondering w/ this new Vega GPU if it can run Linux? Any benchmarks or info? Please begin providing this.
Um, yeah. Look before you leap, on this one. Definitely don't just assume it'll work, because AMD still seems to be running behind on getting support for their GPUs into the mainline kernel.
Yes, that is for sure - we adopt a power virus test to determine the suitability of the thermal solution of the system. The AIDA stress test, on the other hand, is more realistic - we have graphs for both, so that readers can understand and interpret the behavior under both scenarios.
I believe that hardware acceleration is broken in VLC on Vega. It should be fixed in 3.0.2 which seems to have been delayed to iron out a lot of bugs that has plagued the 3.0 release.
Hi, I'm pretty much a novice seeking advice, i find this interesting for a small computer for my 5th wheel camper. Electrial needs may be an issue? The unit has 50 amp service, but many campgrounds only provide 30 amps. Keep in mind that's what's available for the invite unit including Hot water heater, AC, fridge & an electric fireplace, LED lighting so I don't think lighting is much of an issue. No 4K UHD disc playback is a disappointment, but honestly I can't really tell it's any better on my Samsung series 6 4K TV than a regular BLU-RAY upgraded too 4K. Any thoughts or advice appreciated, thanks.
Just FYI, I was able to purchase a new Dell XPS 15 2in1 but my cost was quite expensive - almost $2500.
But I purchase the i7 4K version with 512G SSD. - the base i5 version was $1499 not $1299. I guess after CES 2018, Dell decided to jack the price up.
I was happy to see the 3D rendering performance high on this NUC - even though my plan is using the following applications 1. Lightwave 3D 2018 2. Photoshop CS 5 ( yes older version - don't care for new stuff ) 3. Painter 2018 ( new to it )
I am suppose to get it around 18th of April - I can retry my Lenovo Y50 as my primary machine.
I just like it for its integrated GPU which is a sign of good things to come.
In the future, I just want to see more power from this setup. We'd see motherboards with a 6 or 8 pin connector for providing power to a more powerful GPU. Large coolers will be relevant again.
For AMD, I'd like to see them make a similar setup but with the HBM memory accessible for both the CPU and GPU.
Can't play back UHD Blu-Ray? Wow. Intel you just lost a significant portion of the potential market for this pos. Why would anyone in their right minds buy this over say an Nvidia Shield, or hell a Shield + an Xbox X + a PS4 Pro... for the same money or less.
Not to mention the price once you add an SSD and memory. My god, what are they thinking? This thing is an utter joke! You could build a far far better system without much more of a footprint than this hunk of junk, for less. Just mind boggling. I thought that after the fiasco with the original Skull Canyon that Intel would have learned something... but instead they went backwards. I can hear them now "Let's make it less capable and cost 1/3 to 2x more than the previous version....people will love it!"
The hilarious thing is AMD’s Raven Ridge, which has Video Core Next (unlike its other Vega brethren), can properly decode UHD Blu-ray content and VP9 with fixed function decoding. Excluding gaming, AMD did end up giving Intel the second-rate goods after all. I am using a 2400G in a Streacom FC8 and VCN’s decoding quality is such a revelation that I now strictly use MadVR for UHD Blu-ray and HDR->SDR conversion.
HDMI 2.x output that supports 176.4KHz, 88.2KHz as well was the usual 44KHz & 192KHz without resampling. As far as I know, NVidia can't do it. Reviews of GPUs do not include AUDIO specification or AUDIO testing anymore, only GAME GAME GAME! Apart from picture/movie/streaming, I would like to use my HTPC to play Hi-Res music back without resampling.
UHD-BD playback - requires protected video/audio path, SGX, firmware & software support etc.
That's it. Just 3 requirements. Intel iGPU is out, NVidia is out, maybe AMD?
The 2400G actually works for HDMI 2.0 with current gen hardware. I just built an HTPC in a Streacom FC8 and Raven Ridge, which exclusively has Video Core Next (not even discrete Vega has this), has the best hardware video decoding I have ever used, bar none. See here for compatibility information :
PS: Raven Ridge Vega’s VCN has fixed function VP9 decoding without restrictions. Prior revisions of Vega, including the revision on the Intel CPU+dGPU multi-die packages, use the old UVD system which, while considered by most videophiles to be the best hardware decoding option in terms of decoding quality compared to NVIDIA and AMD (see here: forums (dot) anandtech (dot) com/threads/does-anyone-review-video-decoding-quality-any-more.2410025/#post-36936833 ; despite being from 2014, this old post still pretty much applies), still lacks fixed function VP9 hardware support.
Not being able to play UHD BluRay basically kills the product as HTPC which limits it to gaming and that is a steep price to ask just for that. My effing TV can play 4k HDR but this $1300 PC can't???
Here is an idea, the benchmarks as images are so last decade, seeing the review of the zotac without the benchmarks of hades canyon just because it came out one day earlier, or with a terribly old xps 15 model even though you did bench the latest, is quite frankly not the high standard that people expect from Anand
This is a nice system, but still way too expensive. You can get a gaming laptop with 15" screen, 7700HQ cpu, RAM, Windows OS, usually an SSD OS drive, and a GTX 1060 for around this barebone price. Even less if you go for a 1050 Ti, which is about equivalent to this. It's impressive, but I just have never gotten the point of these expensive NUCs.
Too bad they didn't throw in the AMD 200G and 2400G with the benchmarks. You can build a small system with it which would be a whole lot cheaper and probably pretty decent when it comes to gaming speed.
Hey Ganesh, can you comment on the current status of apparent lack of iGPU/AMD-CPU switchable graphics? Is this just an early BIOS/software issue or an unfixable design flaw where video-out is forced to route through the power-sucking Vega chip? This may be tolerable on a NUC but would be totally unacceptable on a laptop.
I have an XPS-15 2-in-1 (9575) on order having assumed that Dell would never release a laptop with such a glaring flaw. But now with the first review out (https://www.digitaltrends.com/laptop-reviews/dell-... saying battery life is really bad, I'm getting concerned. Three hours runtime? Really??
I thought this was the laptop I was waiting for but now I'm seriously considering canceling my order before it ships and holding off until the issue is sorted out or at least understood.
I assume Intel is aware of the issue - can they fix it or did they (intentionally or unintentionally) sabotage their own (AMD) product??
I noticed you only benchmarked the faster and more expensive NUC8i7HVK. Do you have any plans to benchmark the NUC8i7HNK? I have found very little on this unit and would love to know how much less is expected in performance. If we can obtain at least 50% over the equivalent KabyLake NUC with Iris 620 Graphics, this would be okay for my needs especially since the TDP is 65W versus 100W for the NUC8i7HVK. My purpose is to use this Microsoft Mixed Reality backpack PC with two Sony V-Lock or AntonBauer battery packs. My current NUC "belt system" using the Iris 620 IGPU has worked out very well for doing engineering and architectural VR visualization and with the MSXR using an unbounded positional tracking system, you can navigate larger spaces than with the current HTC/Vive systems. In this YouTube video (https://youtu.be/hM8uwzmhaJY) I am in my backyard, something I don't think I have seen done with the any of the other VR solution :)
One more questions. Do you know what the actual VDC in range is? I know previous NUCs had an actual range between 11-24 VDC. Since the 'Belt System' uses a KabyLake NUC, the 14.8 VDC AntonBauer LiPo works great. I hope this is the case here since it would complicate my battery circuit to have have to go with a custom solution.
Can the Hades Canyon be powered by Thuderbolt port or do you need to use the power brick? I am wondering whether I can just plug it into my dell tb dock.
One of the biggest problems these 880xG based laptops as I been playing around with my XPS 15 2in1 ( 8805G ) is that a lot of software especially games do not know how to handle it.
The best example is Steam VR Test application, even though the software on laptop indicates that CPU is designated to run on the Vega. The Steam VR applications indicated it running on Intel 620. Thus giving it a low score. I have a friend pre-order the Vive headset and thought I give the test application a try - but I search the web on headset and a lot of people are returning them - so this mabe a steam VR issue only.
Does anyone know if the Hades Canyon will support AMD's Pro Radeon Software? I'm wondering since it's got a Vega M GPU. If it will this would make a fantastic portable workstation solution for me.
I appreciate your in depth guide. I am the owner of a skull canyon NUC with no HDR support. I was saddened by this because I figured mini displayport > HDMI 2.0a adapter was going to do the trick. Anyways looking for an upgrade model that will support HDR nicely. After reading about the issues the Vega gpu has with HDR support I think I will wait for the next round of NUCs.
Chuwi HiGame is more VFM , I guess. 1.Higame has 8GB DDR4 Memory，Canyon no 2.Higame has 128GB/256GB SSD， Canyon no 3.Higame has Windows 10 OS，Canyon no
Got a Intel NUC 8809G for 3 days. And it do play back UHD Blu-rays. The only problem is Cyberlink Powdvd 18 and UHD BD Advisor tool cann't detect the LG UK850 HDR display and PD18 played in SDR format. But Potplay can play back HDR UHD BDs fine. Also find there are differences between the TB 3/DP 1.4/HDMI 2.0 ports: TB 3 cannot show the Intel NUC logo during the boot, only support 8bit SDR color; HDMI 2.0 support 8bit HDR color; only DP 1.4 support 10bit HDR output.
btw, the 230w psu in the NUC box is made from Lite-ON and it's almost the same look with my 10 years old dell precision M6400's 230w psu which is made from Delta. I have the Delta one instead the new Lite-ON psu for 3 days ^-^
" as a self-avowed HTPC enthusiast the lackluster media support disappoints me - and it will keep Hades Canyon from being the ultimate HTPC as it should be - so this is the one area where Intel has dropped the ball. "
Curiously in what way do you regard this product to be lackluster media support? And, as an alternative product with media support in mind which would you recommend?
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astromoose - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
How loud is it under load?ganeshts - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
If you are gaming with the volume up, then it is a non-issue. On a comparative basis, it is much better than the ZBOX EK71080, but, not as good as the liquid cooled ZBOX E-series. I would say it is as loud as the Skull Canyon - but, it doesn't enter the noisy territory as much. Some hard numbers on the Skull Canyon can be found here : https://www.reddit.com/r/intelnuc/comments/7ga2q9/...Crazyeyeskillah - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
This would be a nice 1 fit solution for an arcade emulator cabinet. No issues with lower resolution and could essentially run anything you throw at it!Crazyeyeskillah - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
nevermind, the 1700$ price tag is laughableCrunchy005 - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
"As Configured"...they put a 118GB optane drive + a 512GB SSD on top of 16GB RAM. Optane is already not necessary.So get the Kit $999
DDR4 16GB SO-DIMM 2x8GB $167
500GB SSD $125
Windows OS $100(or less depending on how you get it)
$1391 if you need to buy windows
$1291 if you already have a windows license
06GTOSC - Tuesday, April 3, 2018 - link
That's still a lot. Yes it's fairly capable. But for $1300-1400, you can build a much more capable desktop. Yes it'll be larger. But I think space is hardly the issue for most unless you're looking for a LAN machine.xeal - Wednesday, May 2, 2018 - link
You will change your opinion *drastically* if you ever decide to live in (or even visit) Japan.TEAMSWITCHER - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
Reading the unwritten ... Not good for 4K gaming ... Got it.ganeshts - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
Even Intel is marketing this as a 1080p gaming machine - guaranteeing 60fps for most titles at that resolution.Cooe - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
I'm sorry, but what kind of lunatic expected Kaby Lake-G to be able to game at 4K??? Ridiculously stupid expectations are ridiculously stupid.Samus - Saturday, March 31, 2018 - link
Seriously, this is essentially an iGPU. 4K? Be reasonable. It’s actually quite amazing how powerful this is to be able to match a GTX 970 at 1080p and surpass a 980 at lower resolutions.Can’t wait to see these in light gaming notebooks. No reason you couldn’t power the system with a 130w PSU, meaning USB-C powered.
nathanddrews - Monday, April 2, 2018 - link
I had to re-re-read the graphs to comprehend that this IGP is faster than my 3570K/GTX 970 setup. You pay for it, though...WinterCharm - Monday, April 2, 2018 - link
To be fair, this is not a traditional IGP. This is a Radeon Vega chip with 24 CUs, 1536 shader units, and 64 ROP's connected to 4GB of HBM2. It's attached to the Intel CPU via 8 PCIE lanes over an interposer, and is two chips + HBM assembled into one unit.Fallen Kell - Friday, April 6, 2018 - link
Except you are simply much better off just getting an Xbox One X or PS4 Pro at half the price...iter - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
Hey, at least it unlocks performance with a locked CPU ;)Crazyeyeskillah - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
This is barely passable at 1080p. For older titles in early dx11 and lower it will be fine, but this isn't a modern gaming box by any stretch of the imagination. I bet it would be close to on par with an original ps4 performance.Drumsticks - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
That's pretty objectively false. In most benchmarks, it is, as the review mentions, slotting between a GTX 960 and GTX 980. Realistically, it's somewhere in the realm of a GTX 970 or a bit less which puts it, again, in the realm of the GTX 1050 Ti to RX 470. Both of those would be significantly more powerful than the PS4 Original.Even from a mathematical perspective, 24CUs at up to 1190 MHz vs 18 CUs at 800MHz is pretty self explanatory.
Cooe - Friday, March 30, 2018 - link
Are you kidding? This obliterates a base model PS4. It falls behind a GTX 1060 Max Q.Samus - Saturday, March 31, 2018 - link
Last I checked the PS4 non-Pro has a GPU on par with a 750Ti. This thing is on par with a GTX970. That’s twice as powerful as a 750Ti.HStewart - Friday, March 30, 2018 - link
Keep in mind - in truth the Kaby Lake G is actually intended for a mobile CPU - in that arena - it very good. Especially that it also intended to be in ultra portable market.ianmills - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
I get the form factor but would have been nice to put a couple amd discrete gpus in the benchmarks like a 580versesuvius - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
There are mini-PC reviews with discrete GPUs and not a 580 but a NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080 (8GB GDDR5x) in Zotac ZBOX MAGNUS EK71080.Crazyeyeskillah - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
this costs $1700Crunchy005 - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
Yeah with a $200 optane drive that is in no way necessary.Samus - Saturday, March 31, 2018 - link
It costs 1000. And that’s retail. It will likely be on sale for 700 in a few months. Adding $80 in RAM and $100 512GB SSD like the drive Mushkin just announced keeps it safely under $1200.$1700 configured price has no influence on the gaming performance of this machine.
sutamatamasu - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
What about driver?Intel use default Radeon Software or use custom driver for it? Since the six display goes to GPU
jjj - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
So not testing it against any relevant GPU because serving the reader is less important that selling hardware for the modern pseud-press.Typical for AT, God forbid test an ultrabook vs other laptops or a Surface in gaming. Mislead, bend reality to sell the hardware and that's your job. Objectivity, ethics, decency, those are long gone.
ganeshts - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
Which part of the 'Gaming notebooks compared' section didn't you read ?ToTTenTranz - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
I don't agree with the way the "protest" was made, but the fact is that you guys managed to not compare to a single one of the discrete GPUs that Kaby Lake proposes to compete with (as seen through Intel's own slides about Kaby Lake G): the notebook GTX1060, GTX1060 Max-Q and GTX 1050 Ti.Instead you compared Kaby G with a bunch of 3-4 year-old Maxwell solutions and GP104 discrete cards that are very obviously out of Kaby G's range.
Arbie - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
@jjj - Silly rants are supposed to be posted in Wccftech, not here. And mainstream GPUs were addressed: "... the Radeon GPU slotted between the GTX 960 and GTX 980 in terms of performance." If you really need +/- 1 FPS for some specific GPU, there are lots of results here you can use to compare. The question with a box like this is not whether it beats a desktop, but whether it will run advanced games at all. Question answered. Go take your meds.cacnoff - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
I see that it can play back netflix 4k HDR?Does this make Intel the first Radeon GPU implementation to handle Playready 3.0?
patrickjp93 - Friday, March 30, 2018 - link
Actually that's handled by the iGPU on Kaby Lake. Vega is not PlayReady 3.0-capable.ganeshts - Friday, March 30, 2018 - link
On traditional KBL systems, you are right about iGPU handling PlayReady 3.0 video decoding.On the Hades Canyon, it appears that the Vega GPU is handling it. I have updated the '4K HTPC Credentials' section with the appropriate text after capturing the screenshot below:
https://images.anandtech.com/doci/12572/Netflix-GP...
gigahertz20 - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
I've built two Intel NUC's for family members in the past couple of years and they love them. Fast, quiet and so far reliable. They don't game at all which is why I convinced them to buy them. I'm not sure if this NUC is going to be popular at all though at $1,000 barebones. Who is going to buy it? The gaming performance of this NUC is nothing special, gamers and enthusiasts are going to stick with desktops, alot of people are just waiting for the cryptocurrency craze to die down so we can get video cards at decent prices again. If that takes another year or 2 so be it.Your average person that just needs an office computer won't buy this at $1k, you can get a much cheaper NUC and throw in a SSD and that will work fine. Why pay a premium for a cute little powerful box, if you want small and portable you can get a laptop for cheaper. If they would have priced this at $600 barebones it would have been much more appealing to your average user that might want to play the occasional game at 1080P.
Crazyeyeskillah - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
Nuc's have always been geared as thing clients for businesses. It's a niche market that pretty much just wants reliability and 'good enough' performance. I don't see many people loading up on the $1700 version like we see here, but Intel will get good sales from the lowest tier when ordered by the hundreds for large companies.Sailor23M - Friday, March 30, 2018 - link
I bought the Skull Canyon version last year at a good discount on newegg. I am very happy with it and intel’s support (for at least the skull canyon) has been great with a dedicated website and easy to find updates, firmware and drivers. I have it mounted behind my monitor and use it as my main PC. I’m sure that although the retail price on these is $999, you will be able to find it for much less in a few months time.The_Assimilator - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
For the love of god Ganesh, please, PLEASE give us proper teardowns of the units you review. That means taking the damh things apart and showing us what all the bits look like, NOT just removing the lid that allows you to access the user-upgradable bits.Crazyeyeskillah - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
Why do you need a tear down of this product?The_Assimilator - Monday, April 2, 2018 - link
I don't "need" it, but a review should attempt to be as thorough as possible, and for hardware that means showing as much of the system as possible.cfenton - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
Usually review units are on loan from the manufacturer. They aren't typically too keen on reviewers tearing them apart before returning them.vanilla_gorilla - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
> The NUC8i7HVK hits the ball out of the park on a number of fronts.I'm confused. I was just recently informed you were clearly a shill for AMD. What's going on here?
Kidding! Kidding! Another great review.
peevee - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
Why 230W powerbrick if the CPU+GPU are only 100W?Can it power an external thunderbolt display by USB power?
ganeshts - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
We see the system reach 230W under Prime95 + FurMark. I am checking with Intel on the exact reason for that, given no USB peripherals were connected.Each Thunderbolt 3 port can provide 15W. The rest depends on the specifications of the Thunderbolt display you are talking about - to the best of my knowledge no USB-powered *Thunderbolt* display exists.
Hixbot - Saturday, March 31, 2018 - link
Wow, they got some splaining to do.The_Assimilator - Monday, April 2, 2018 - link
Not much to explain - everyone knows Vega is a power hog.GreenReaper - Sunday, April 1, 2018 - link
Most CPUs and GPUs are specced for instantaneous and even reasonably long-term power draw in excess of their TDP, which is more of a long-term cooling target (hence the *thermal* design part of the acronym). Then you have to supply power to ports, RAM, SSDs, etc. It all adds up fast. This is also one reason laptop tend to lack large numbers of high-powered USB/Thunderbolt ports.Samastrike - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
So routing display outputs through the AMD graphics was a choice by Intel for this specific machine? Hopefully Dell and other manufacturers won't do the same in laptops like the XPS 15 2-in-1, it would be crazy to cut off access to Intel's decode blocks for things like Youtube in a laptop.sharath.naik - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
This is too expensive. The Dell 7000 gaming laptop is closer to 1000$ (gtx1060) and will do better in all the games. I cannot think of one reason to by this NUC over the laptop. This NUC should have been priced at ~600$ barebonesCrazyeyeskillah - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
This review is for the $1700 NUC. Clearly not designed for the gaming market whatsoever. a 700 laptop could rip this to pieces.Cooe - Friday, March 30, 2018 - link
The only reason this particular SKU is so expensive is the Optane SSD + a NAND SSD too. Normally, this would be around $1200-1300 fully kitted.PeachNCream - Friday, March 30, 2018 - link
The price really is way too high right now compared to a laptop if your focus is gaming. If you need a LAN party portable box, a laptop is usually a better option anyway since the screen and keyboard aren't additional components you'll have to take with you. Because the NUC is so small, it lacks the upgrade advantages offered by a desktop form factor so you're basically dealing with an overpriced, screenless laptop. I'm all for the technology at the heart of the new NUC, but you're absolutely right that it needs to start at $600.bill44 - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
I was hoping so much from this machine, ready to buy, only to be disappointed.No Titan Ridge TB3 (DP 1.4)
No UHD-BD playback
TB3 not connected to CPU
UHS-1 only card reader, no UHS-II
Issues with storage bandwidth since Spectre/Meltdown issues, no in-silicon fix (I know, 2nd half 2018).
Disappointing WiFi speed, no BT 5, even if M.2 changed no aerial.
Hardware decoding/codec issues
etc.
When can we expect the next (fixed version) :)
cacnoff - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
Titan Ridge - not out yet.UHD-BD playback - doesn't work on nvidia either.
Point to ANY designs with TB3 connected to CPU.
repoman27 - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
Apple does this pretty regularly. But last I knew, everyone else had to go through the PCH due to Windows / UEFI limitations. Which is a bummer because of the additional latency and clear potential for bandwidth contention.Hifihedgehog - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
“We can actually see that the codec support from the Intel side is miles ahead of the Radeon's capabilities.”This is misinformed at best, and categorically false at worse. I have been using a Ryzen 5 2400G, on an ASRock AB350 Gaming-ITX/ac motherboard to drive an HDMI 2.0 4K display at 12-bit (yes, despite lacking formal certification, HDMI 2.0 works flawlessly on 300-series motherboards). I successfully can play back various hefty video material, including HEVC in the form of lossless MKV rips of my UHD Blu-rays, and VP9. Moreover, the color, deblocking, and scaling is far superior in terms of pure optical fidelity to the Intel Skull Canyon NUC’s hazy, unrefined hardware decoding solution. Also, I could go at length about the dropout and timing issues of Intel’s HD Graphics with various high-end AV receivers (Marantz, Denon, and Yamaha) that I have had (e.g. timing issues from their onboard DP-to-HDMI converters causing DAC and sound processing to operate in a compatibility mode with 16-bit sound depth). Suffice it to say, from an objective standpoint, Intel’s NUCs are utter trash, littered with issues, that fall far short from being serious home theater solutions.
garbagedisposal - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
" misinformed at best, and categorically false at worse"Yes, you are.
"HDMI 2.0 works flawlessly on 300-series motherboards"
Congrats on discovering the obvious. Nobody claimed otherwise
"successfully can play back various hefty video material, including HEVC"
So can intel, better and at lower power. Isn't it sad that the radeon can't do VP9 or netflix?
"color, deblocking, and scaling is far superior"
Sure. Everything just looks so wrong on intel. Certainly takes a special snowflake like you to notice, good job.
"Marantz, Denon, and Yamaha"
Nobody cares.
Rabid angry people like you are funny, do you really think anyone is going to read or care about your comment? Go away LOL
Hifihedgehog - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
Please be polite and less “rabid.” Thanks.Hifihedgehog - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
For anyone reading the post above, Vega can correctly decode VP9, hybrid or otherwise. What was posted above is incorrect.Hifihedgehog - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
“Congrats on discovering the obvious. Nobody claimed otherwise”This is also false. Many reviews online of the Ryzen Raven Ridge APUs claimed that HDMI 2.0 support was yet non-existent given that most motherboard manufacturers state only HDMI 1.4 for their 300-series AM4 boards. This concerned many users, but after thorough research and testing (see here: smallformfactor (dot) net /forum/threads/raven-ridge-hdmi-2-0-compatibility-1st-gen-am4-motherboard-test-request-megathread.6709/ ; I am the one who started the thread and led its discussion), it was concluded that all current motherboards work without limitations or issue regardless of the published specifications. I will also ignore the passive-aggressive sarcasm and sentiment laced in-between the lines from the “Congrats” to the “LOL.” Please be less rabid and angry, and more people will take your seriously.
ganeshts - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
The Radeon GPU CAN NOT do VP9 Profile 2 - so you will NEVER get YouTube HDR on the. No PAVP. QuickSync ecosystem support is way ahead of Radeon VCE. So, tell me why I am wrong in saying that the Intel iGPU is miles ahead of the Radeon Vega ? Any neutral industry observer can see that I am completely justified in making those claims.I am not talking about Ryzen APUs - I am talking about the Radeon GPU in the Core i7-8809G, as utilized in the NUC8i7HVK.
eva02langley - Friday, March 30, 2018 - link
"So, tell me why I am wrong in saying that the Intel iGPU is miles ahead of the Radeon Vega ?"Because it can render games at 1080p...? This is seriously a question?
This is actually incredible to see iGPU able to do that. And we forget at this time the PS4 and the Xbox One X capabilities.
This is not a discrete GPU.
The_Assimilator - Monday, April 2, 2018 - link
Way to take Ganesh's statement out of context to push in your own VEGA UBER ALLES viewpoint. He was very obviously talking about the video playback capabilities of Vega, which are objectively inferior to Intel's.Hifihedgehog - Friday, March 30, 2018 - link
As a neutral industry observer myself, I have had to build with discrete graphics in ITX cases (with both Intel and AMD CPUs) because of the timing and handshaking issues of Intel NUCs’ DP-to-HDMI converters. I have no major qualms with Intel as CPU company; it is their graphics solutions that I am not fond of and well familiar with as being compromised.ganeshts - Friday, March 30, 2018 - link
Not denying that the NUC's HDMI ports have some compatibility issues, but, to their credit, they have been very responsive and tried to figure out fixes (I spent almost 6 months last year trying to get their KBL NUC to work with the 4K TV in my testbed).Every vendor has some problem or the other. In my experience, NVIDIA has one of the best generic solutions for multimedia systems, but, Intel wins out in niche use-cases (YouTube HDR, for example). Less said about AMD, the better - their drivers for multimedia functions turned from good to bad to worse, and I don't think I have done any HTPC testing on AMD GPU-based system in the last couple of years - they basically haven't released anything competitive in that segment, to be honest. Hopefully, that changes with the Ryzen APUs, but, I can't say for sure unless it undergoes a thorough evaluation.
Multiple readers email me with request for guidance on what to buy from a HTPC perspective. In most cases, I point them towards some NUC-based solution. Feedback after purchase has never been negative.
Hifihedgehog - Friday, March 30, 2018 - link
“Less said about AMD, the better - their drivers for multimedia functions turned from good to bad to worse,”Please qualify this with an example. I and others at SmallFormFactor forums are using the Raven Ridge APUs, and I have had no issues with Kodi, MPC-BE and MadVR for 12-bit UHD home theater duty. Saying current generation AMD graphics drivers are bad and worse is just as inaccurate as saying Intel HD Graphics are good for nothing except Solitaire—both signify naïveté with either products.
“In most cases, I point them towards some NUC-based solution. Feedback after purchase has never been negative.”
I kindly point you to this thread, 674 replies and counting, responses comprised mostly of complaints. There have been droves of disgruntled NUC users this last generation. Intel NUCs have been awful, and many have abandoned them for alternative small form factor products.
communities (dot) intel (dot) com/message/490689#490689
ganeshts - Friday, March 30, 2018 - link
Example, right now with Vega GPU in Hades Canyon :Use VLC 3.0.1 with default preferences on Windows 10 latest stable release and attempt to play
back an interlaced MPEG2 clip - the video output is blank and only the audio plays. The same scenario in systems using the KBL iGPU or NVIDIA GPUs is absolutely fine.
Now, if the VLC developers have to do something special to make code that works for both Intel iGPU and NVIDIA GPU, I have to unfortunately say it is AMD's driver that is at fault for having undefined behavior in their video decode acceleration or rendering API.
If you play only one type of codec and it works great for that, it doesn't mean the drivers are flawless.
AMD drivers were good when their PR team was trying to promote the HQV benchmark for the HTPC market. They started turning bad around the AMD 7000 series where their DXVA APIs used to result in BSODs when people attempted to use them. And, after that, I got disillusioned with AMD's GPU for HTPC duties and stopped recommending them. Ryzen might be different - I haven't tested it yet. But, based on my experience in Hades Canyon, I am not very bullish.
NUC-based, from my perspective, is any UCFF PC based on the -U series. In the KBL-U generation, my first recommendation has always been the ASRock Beebox-S 7200U, followed by the NUC7i7BNH : Both of them have got very good feedback from people I recommended them to. Btw, the incompatibility issue that I had with the NUC7i7BNH and the TCL 55P607 in HDR mode was actually fixed after a silent firmware update on the TV side. The blame is not on one supplier (holding no torch for Intel here, I am just saying that no one manufacturer can be blamed all the time).
Hifihedgehog - Saturday, March 31, 2018 - link
VLC is well-known to be a overly processor intensive program (or CPU hog; see here: pcworld (dot) com/article/3023430/hardware/tested-vlc-vs-windows-10-video-player-the-winner-may-surprise-you.html ) and due to this in more recent years, many videophiles moved along to MPC-HC and MPC-BE. I do not understand why many computer geeks still insist on it. I have used the MPC twin programs for over five years now and have had no issues for codec usage with either, which rely on LAV filters. Last I used VLC, it used more than double the CPU usage, it had worse image scaling than the forks of MPC, and file support was just as good if not superior. Honestly, VLC was a great solution a decade ago, but times have changed and I now highly recommend and always use the MPC products. I cannot see any reason why to insist on VLC at this point especially with the problems you mention which I never encountered in the MPC forked projects.Hifihedgehog - Saturday, March 31, 2018 - link
PS:techhive (dot) com/article/2892383/which-is-the-better-free-video-player-mpc-hc-176-vs-vlc-22.html
reddit (dot) com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/43do0n/is_anyone_still_using_vlc_if_thats_the_case/
Hifihedgehog - Saturday, March 31, 2018 - link
videohelp (dot) com/softwareimages/madvr_1196.jpgganeshts - Saturday, March 31, 2018 - link
All those references to VLC are pre-3.0 release. With 3.0, VLC had a major overhaul. That is the reason why I never touched VLC in my earlier systems reviews, but started doing so with the ones from this month.https://www.videolan.org/vlc/releases/3.0.0.html
The new release is very power efficient - as good as a lean MPC-HC + LAV Filters configuration. I believe they have done an excellent job, and will be using VLC moving forward (in addition to Kodi and MPC-HC / madVR).
Like it or not, it is the geeks and the nerds who use MPC-HC. The mass market still uses Kodi and VLC (despite the latter's inefficiencies pre-3.0).
Hifihedgehog - Saturday, March 31, 2018 - link
“The mass market still uses Kodi and VLC.”I respectfully disagree. Many home theater users I know use Kodi in combination with MPC-HC or MPC-BE, due to MadVR highly superior scaling abilities. Check the Kodi forums. This is a very popular configuration:
forum (dot) kodi (dot) tv/showthread.php?tid=209596
Check out this thread. Many reference it. Perhaps you should as welll in going forward:
forum (dot) doom9 (dot) org/showthread.php?t=171787
I have tried VLC 3.0 and CPU usage and image quality are still inferior to MPC-HC and MPC-BE. For these reasons, it is still not worth recommending.
Hifihedgehog - Saturday, March 31, 2018 - link
PS:hardforum (dot) com/threads/vlc-3-0-released-with-hdr-chromecast-support.1954247/#post-1043479175
Trixanity - Saturday, March 31, 2018 - link
Try the latest 3.0.2 nightly. It should work there unless Hades have special drivers.mode_13h - Friday, March 30, 2018 - link
Rabid angry people like you are funny, do you really think anyone is going to read or care about your comment? Go away LOLcfenton - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
The claim was about codec support. Just by looking at the DXVA charts it's pretty clear the Intel IGP has better codec support. Hardware decode is pretty important for most people looking for a box to sit near their TV.Of course, you may be right that the Ryzen 5 is a better solution overall if you're willing to sacrifice UHD Blu-ray and some hardware decode ability.
eva02langley - Friday, March 30, 2018 - link
Who the hell is using Blu-Ray anymore?mooninite - Friday, March 30, 2018 - link
People use Blu-Ray when they want to view the best possible video AND audio quality on something other than their laptop with a 1280x768 17" screen that's on shared wi-fi.PeachNCream - Friday, March 30, 2018 - link
Do you mean 1366x768? 1280x800 used to be pretty popular when screens went to 16:10.cfenton - Friday, March 30, 2018 - link
Anyone who cares about image and audio quality, which is precisely the market for an HTPC.bill44 - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
As far as I know, no Intel NUC with HDMI 2.x can deal with frame packed 3D ISO.As the Hades Canyon uses AMD GPU's HDMI 2.x output, it may be able to. Can someone test this?
nul0b - Thursday, March 29, 2018 - link
Can Linux run on this? Ubuntu? Is their driver support?I can run Ubuntu on my current NUC but was wondering w/ this new Vega GPU if it can run Linux? Any benchmarks or info? Please begin providing this.
mode_13h - Friday, March 30, 2018 - link
Um, yeah. Look before you leap, on this one. Definitely don't just assume it'll work, because AMD still seems to be running behind on getting support for their GPUs into the mainline kernel.Maybe, with proprietary drivers, on Ubuntu 18.04?
Lolimaster - Friday, March 30, 2018 - link
I wouldn't call Prime95+Furmark a load test, it's totally unrealistic.How about giving it a BF1 run + HEVC reproducing on MPC or a CB15 run?
Lolimaster - Friday, March 30, 2018 - link
Specially for gpu's, you'll never get that kind of load during a game session.ganeshts - Friday, March 30, 2018 - link
Yes, that is for sure - we adopt a power virus test to determine the suitability of the thermal solution of the system. The AIDA stress test, on the other hand, is more realistic - we have graphs for both, so that readers can understand and interpret the behavior under both scenarios.Trixanity - Friday, March 30, 2018 - link
I believe that hardware acceleration is broken in VLC on Vega. It should be fixed in 3.0.2 which seems to have been delayed to iron out a lot of bugs that has plagued the 3.0 release.M9 - Friday, March 30, 2018 - link
Hi, I'm pretty much a novice seeking advice, i find this interesting for a small computer for my 5th wheel camper. Electrial needs may be an issue? The unit has 50 amp service, but many campgrounds only provide 30 amps. Keep in mind that's what's available for the invite unit includingHot water heater, AC, fridge & an electric fireplace, LED lighting so I don't think lighting is much of an issue. No 4K UHD disc playback is a disappointment, but honestly I can't really tell it's any better on my Samsung series 6 4K TV than a regular BLU-RAY upgraded too 4K. Any thoughts or advice appreciated, thanks.
Zingam - Friday, March 30, 2018 - link
50 Amps? Are you going to power a metal smelting furnace?M9 - Saturday, March 31, 2018 - link
No, just saying I don't have as much electricity available as a typical house or apartment.HStewart - Friday, March 30, 2018 - link
Just FYI, I was able to purchase a new Dell XPS 15 2in1 but my cost was quite expensive - almost $2500.But I purchase the i7 4K version with 512G SSD. - the base i5 version was $1499 not $1299. I guess after CES 2018, Dell decided to jack the price up.
I was happy to see the 3D rendering performance high on this NUC - even though my plan is using the following applications
1. Lightwave 3D 2018
2. Photoshop CS 5 ( yes older version - don't care for new stuff )
3. Painter 2018 ( new to it )
I am suppose to get it around 18th of April - I can retry my Lenovo Y50 as my primary machine.
zodiacfml - Friday, March 30, 2018 - link
I just like it for its integrated GPU which is a sign of good things to come.In the future, I just want to see more power from this setup. We'd see motherboards with a 6 or 8 pin connector for providing power to a more powerful GPU. Large coolers will be relevant again.
For AMD, I'd like to see them make a similar setup but with the HBM memory accessible for both the CPU and GPU.
What would Jesus Do? - Saturday, March 31, 2018 - link
Test comment test!!!santiagodraco - Saturday, March 31, 2018 - link
Can't play back UHD Blu-Ray? Wow. Intel you just lost a significant portion of the potential market for this pos. Why would anyone in their right minds buy this over say an Nvidia Shield, or hell a Shield + an Xbox X + a PS4 Pro... for the same money or less.Time to fire some folks in management.
santiagodraco - Saturday, March 31, 2018 - link
Not to mention the price once you add an SSD and memory. My god, what are they thinking? This thing is an utter joke! You could build a far far better system without much more of a footprint than this hunk of junk, for less. Just mind boggling. I thought that after the fiasco with the original Skull Canyon that Intel would have learned something... but instead they went backwards. I can hear them now "Let's make it less capable and cost 1/3 to 2x more than the previous version....people will love it!"Hifihedgehog - Monday, April 2, 2018 - link
The hilarious thing is AMD’s Raven Ridge, which has Video Core Next (unlike its other Vega brethren), can properly decode UHD Blu-ray content and VP9 with fixed function decoding. Excluding gaming, AMD did end up giving Intel the second-rate goods after all. I am using a 2400G in a Streacom FC8 and VCN’s decoding quality is such a revelation that I now strictly use MadVR for UHD Blu-ray and HDR->SDR conversion.medi03 - Saturday, March 31, 2018 - link
And the reason not include 1060 / 1050 in the benchmarks is?bill44 - Saturday, March 31, 2018 - link
What a mess.Who can recommend a HTPC I can purchase or build that supports the following:
Stereo 3D - BD 3D ISO frame packed support (without issues) over HDMI 2.x (before you reply, please red Intel's official reply from this thread https://communities.intel.com/thread/112109?start=...
HDMI 2.x output that supports 176.4KHz, 88.2KHz as well was the usual 44KHz & 192KHz without resampling. As far as I know, NVidia can't do it. Reviews of GPUs do not include AUDIO specification or AUDIO testing anymore, only GAME GAME GAME!
Apart from picture/movie/streaming, I would like to use my HTPC to play Hi-Res music back without resampling.
UHD-BD playback - requires protected video/audio path, SGX, firmware & software support etc.
That's it. Just 3 requirements. Intel iGPU is out, NVidia is out, maybe AMD?
bill44 - Saturday, March 31, 2018 - link
Just one more thing: Displayport 1.2 only? I thought AMD supports 1.3/1.4.Hifihedgehog - Monday, April 2, 2018 - link
The 2400G actually works for HDMI 2.0 with current gen hardware. I just built an HTPC in a Streacom FC8 and Raven Ridge, which exclusively has Video Core Next (not even discrete Vega has this), has the best hardware video decoding I have ever used, bar none. See here for compatibility information :smallformfactor (dot) net/forum/threads/raven-ridge-hdmi-2-0-compatibility-1st-gen-am4-motherboard-test-request-megathread.6709/
Hifihedgehog - Monday, April 2, 2018 - link
PS: Raven Ridge Vega’s VCN has fixed function VP9 decoding without restrictions. Prior revisions of Vega, including the revision on the Intel CPU+dGPU multi-die packages, use the old UVD system which, while considered by most videophiles to be the best hardware decoding option in terms of decoding quality compared to NVIDIA and AMD (see here: forums (dot) anandtech (dot) com/threads/does-anyone-review-video-decoding-quality-any-more.2410025/#post-36936833 ; despite being from 2014, this old post still pretty much applies), still lacks fixed function VP9 hardware support.Hifihedgehog - Monday, April 2, 2018 - link
PS: Raven Ridge’s claim to fame is support for fixed function 10-bit VP9 decoding.tomshardware (dot) co (dot) uk/amd-ryzen-5-2400g-zen-vega-cpu-gpu,review-34205-4.html
kunal29 - Saturday, March 31, 2018 - link
What about the latency benchmarks between GPU and CPU?beginner99 - Sunday, April 1, 2018 - link
Not being able to play UHD BluRay basically kills the product as HTPC which limits it to gaming and that is a steep price to ask just for that. My effing TV can play 4k HDR but this $1300 PC can't???Tyler_Durden_83 - Monday, April 2, 2018 - link
Here is an idea, the benchmarks as images are so last decade, seeing the review of the zotac without the benchmarks of hades canyon just because it came out one day earlier, or with a terribly old xps 15 model even though you did bench the latest, is quite frankly not the high standard that people expect from Anandkmmatney - Monday, April 2, 2018 - link
This is a nice system, but still way too expensive. You can get a gaming laptop with 15" screen, 7700HQ cpu, RAM, Windows OS, usually an SSD OS drive, and a GTX 1060 for around this barebone price. Even less if you go for a 1050 Ti, which is about equivalent to this. It's impressive, but I just have never gotten the point of these expensive NUCs.JKJK - Tuesday, April 3, 2018 - link
lack of UHD/HDR support in many cases and those kodi freezes .... meh.I would like to see some update on these freeze-issues in the future.
HakkaH - Tuesday, April 3, 2018 - link
Too bad they didn't throw in the AMD 200G and 2400G with the benchmarks. You can build a small system with it which would be a whole lot cheaper and probably pretty decent when it comes to gaming speed.Dev3 - Thursday, April 5, 2018 - link
Hey Ganesh, can you comment on the current status of apparent lack of iGPU/AMD-CPU switchable graphics? Is this just an early BIOS/software issue or an unfixable design flaw where video-out is forced to route through the power-sucking Vega chip? This may be tolerable on a NUC but would be totally unacceptable on a laptop.I have an XPS-15 2-in-1 (9575) on order having assumed that Dell would never release a laptop with such a glaring flaw. But now with the first review out (https://www.digitaltrends.com/laptop-reviews/dell-... saying battery life is really bad, I'm getting concerned. Three hours runtime? Really??
I thought this was the laptop I was waiting for but now I'm seriously considering canceling my order before it ships and holding off until the issue is sorted out or at least understood.
I assume Intel is aware of the issue - can they fix it or did they (intentionally or unintentionally) sabotage their own (AMD) product??
AllThings3D - Saturday, April 7, 2018 - link
I noticed you only benchmarked the faster and more expensive NUC8i7HVK. Do you have any plans to benchmark the NUC8i7HNK? I have found very little on this unit and would love to know how much less is expected in performance. If we can obtain at least 50% over the equivalent KabyLake NUC with Iris 620 Graphics, this would be okay for my needs especially since the TDP is 65W versus 100W for the NUC8i7HVK. My purpose is to use this Microsoft Mixed Reality backpack PC with two Sony V-Lock or AntonBauer battery packs. My current NUC "belt system" using the Iris 620 IGPU has worked out very well for doing engineering and architectural VR visualization and with the MSXR using an unbounded positional tracking system, you can navigate larger spaces than with the current HTC/Vive systems. In this YouTube video (https://youtu.be/hM8uwzmhaJY) I am in my backyard, something I don't think I have seen done with the any of the other VR solution :)One more questions. Do you know what the actual VDC in range is? I know previous NUCs had an actual range between 11-24 VDC. Since the 'Belt System' uses a KabyLake NUC, the 14.8 VDC AntonBauer LiPo works great. I hope this is the case here since it would complicate my battery circuit to have have to go with a custom solution.
JKJK - Tuesday, April 10, 2018 - link
So... As a future proof media center (mostly kodi use), should I buy the previous gen?Need answer asap if I need to cancel my order
MattEm - Wednesday, April 11, 2018 - link
Can the Hades Canyon be powered by Thuderbolt port or do you need to use the power brick? I am wondering whether I can just plug it into my dell tb dock.HStewart - Sunday, April 15, 2018 - link
One of the biggest problems these 880xG based laptops as I been playing around with my XPS 15 2in1 ( 8805G ) is that a lot of software especially games do not know how to handle it.The best example is Steam VR Test application, even though the software on laptop indicates that CPU is designated to run on the Vega. The Steam VR applications indicated it running on Intel 620. Thus giving it a low score. I have a friend pre-order the Vive headset and thought I give the test application a try - but I search the web on headset and a lot of people are returning them - so this mabe a steam VR issue only.
Eastman - Tuesday, April 17, 2018 - link
Does anyone know if the Hades Canyon will support AMD's Pro Radeon Software? I'm wondering since it's got a Vega M GPU. If it will this would make a fantastic portable workstation solution for me.josehdx - Thursday, April 19, 2018 - link
Can anyone verify this update? https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/27718/In...Intel says the next coments: Intel SGX software is required:
If SGX security is enabled in BIOS.
To play UHD Bluray content.
So, is it capable to play UHD after the update?
Thanks!
sevenup75 - Wednesday, June 27, 2018 - link
I have downloaded and tried install it but failed.But my 8809g do play UHD Blurays fine.
nagus - Sunday, May 6, 2018 - link
I appreciate your in depth guide. I am the owner of a skull canyon NUC with no HDR support. I was saddened by this because I figured mini displayport > HDMI 2.0a adapter was going to do the trick. Anyways looking for an upgrade model that will support HDR nicely. After reading about the issues the Vega gpu has with HDR support I think I will wait for the next round of NUCs.temptation1234 - Saturday, June 2, 2018 - link
Chuwi HiGame is more VFM , I guess.1.Higame has 8GB DDR4 Memory，Canyon no
2.Higame has 128GB/256GB SSD， Canyon no
3.Higame has Windows 10 OS，Canyon no
sevenup75 - Wednesday, June 27, 2018 - link
Got a Intel NUC 8809G for 3 days.And it do play back UHD Blu-rays. The only problem is Cyberlink Powdvd 18 and UHD BD Advisor tool cann't detect the LG UK850 HDR display and PD18 played in SDR format. But Potplay can play back HDR UHD BDs fine.
Also find there are differences between the TB 3/DP 1.4/HDMI 2.0 ports: TB 3 cannot show the Intel NUC logo during the boot, only support 8bit SDR color; HDMI 2.0 support 8bit HDR color; only DP 1.4 support 10bit HDR output.
btw, the 230w psu in the NUC box is made from Lite-ON and it's almost the same look with my 10 years old dell precision M6400's 230w psu which is made from Delta.
I have the Delta one instead the new Lite-ON psu for 3 days ^-^
Sheunghko - Saturday, June 30, 2018 - link
Does that mean there is at least one tb3 that is hook up with the CPU ?Sheunghko - Sunday, July 1, 2018 - link
Does this Vega M support freesync?sevenup75 - Monday, July 2, 2018 - link
yes, freesync supportedtokyojerry - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
" as a self-avowed HTPC enthusiast the lackluster media support disappoints me - and it will keep Hades Canyon from being the ultimate HTPC as it should be - so this is the one area where Intel has dropped the ball. "Curiously in what way do you regard this product to be lackluster media support? And, as an alternative product with media support in mind which would you recommend?
ricelid - Sunday, August 19, 2018 - link
Can you please test if HDMI CEC settings are present in the UEFI menu and that it works?LauLiWan - Friday, March 22, 2019 - link
Will the thunderbolt 3 capable to deliver up to max 40Gbps when transfer file using external Thunderbolt 3 drive?