Uhh... The tl;dr is that they're killing off Tango because of the prohibitive costs associated with Tango-exclusive sensor equipment which would otherwise lock it away from most customers. They're integrating as much Tango software/developments into ARCore which doesn't require specialized sensors and would be capable of being used on most any modern smartphone without major issues.
The only dumb move would be to continue sinking heavy development costs into hardware hardly anybody really wants to buy. (See shrinking sales of dedicated VR headsets for PCs.)
While I don't disagree with your point, is there data that dedicated VR headset sales are shrinking? They certainly have not taken off like everyone would have hoped, but they are still growing the last I saw numbers for them. Is there data that says otherwise?
I don't think he's correct on VR headset sales. From what I've read their sales are not as good as projected a few years back, but they are still slowly growing. The recent increased competition created by the entry of WMR headsets will help to drive further growth. The WMR headsets also feature inside-out tracking which is less expensive and less cumbersome than having to buy external trackers.
But what they really need the most are killer apps... solid games that stand on their own merits AND are substantially better in VR. I've often said I don't plan to buy a VR headset until MechWarrior 5: Mercenaries is released. :D
Sales finally busted 1mil quarterly combined sales. More games are coming out. movement systems are being refined, and new engines are supporting VR and more importantly crossfire/SLI. The key though has always been price point. That is finally down to the point where it's no longer a significant investment.
We're in that post-hype phase of the current VR/AR bubble, where all the nay-sayers are starting to feel vindicated. Meanwhile, the tech is continuing to evolve and many are quietly playing the long game. The hype-cycle is unfortunate, but seems an unavoidable part of technology development.
Tim Cook is a believer in AR and once Apple finally releases their iGlasses, they will be seen as visionary geniuses. iPhone wasn't the first smartphone, but Apple kept their powder dry and didn't launch it till the tech was ready.
This view only makes sense if believe the only devices people will ever use are smartphones. In that case, it's hard to see how Tango apps hit critical mass enough for smartphone makers to add the extra $30 or whatever to their BoM for a depth sensor (many phones already have a second image sensor).
But when view as enabling Hololens-style AR headsets (another example: Magic Leap), Tango really makes a lot of sense. The problem is what to do until then. So, ARCore seems a reasonable stop-gap measure.
What's unfortunate is that, as I understand it (and I've not had a chance to really dig into it) ARCore lacks some significant functionality that Tango provided. In order to kill off Tango, ARCore really needs to offer the same functionality on hardware with the same capabilities that Tango used.
IMO, what really forced Google hand was Facebook and Apple, both of whom offered competing functionality to ARCore. Google doesn't want to cede this ground to them, so that's why they're focusing their development effort on it and pushing their most sophisticated AR app developers onto it.
regular cameras don't work the same as our eyes. And as the op said, standard vision cannot FULLY substitute depth info, which he is very correct in that. The tech was pricey but no more than a lot of other features added to phones and would have eventually come down. I think it sucks they're abandoning it bc using regular dual cameras just doesn't work as good and therefore the apps wont work as good which makes nobody want it.
Tango devices used BOTH stereo cameras AND an active depth sensor (either structured light or time-of-flight). The reason being that accurate stereo requires a good amount of texture and illumination, while active depth sensors are limited by range & ambient lighting.
As someone who's written Tango apps and has two iterations of Tango hardware, I assure you that even two-sensor smart phones aren't a satisfactory replacement for those cases where you really care about scene geometry.
Single-camera SLAM systems work adequately for a subset of use cases, such as dealing with non-moving objects, finding the ground plane, and coarse obstacle detection. While that's good enough for a significant subset of AR apps, there's still a significant number of INTERESTING things you can do with the addition of a depth sensor and a second camera.
You need a well calibrated and synchronized cameras, enough features and long baseline to get any usable depth data. You can get some depth data from monocular camera + IMU, but that method requires a lot of processing, and much noisier than simple RGBD camera.
It's funny how you talk about "RGBD" cameras like depth is just another wavelength. I'm basically with you, but it's not like all non-stereo depth sensing technologies don't each have their share of limitations.
Depth and stereo are complementary. And rather than simple stereo, what I'd really like is a plenoptic camera.
Apple got more developer buy in before ARKit came out of beta than Google got long after Tango's release, because Apple's version of the tech was going to end up in the hands of users.
Of course Google followed suit. They were getting bad press and are dedicated to the fast follower strategy.
Google shutting down a project? How many companies have they bought, and then just let all development drop? Not saying this shouldn't be dropped, but they just keep doing this and ruining things for other people.
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nerd1 - Monday, December 18, 2017 - link
I think that's a stupid move.... standard vision cannot fully substitute depth info.JoeyJoJo123 - Monday, December 18, 2017 - link
Uhh... The tl;dr is that they're killing off Tango because of the prohibitive costs associated with Tango-exclusive sensor equipment which would otherwise lock it away from most customers. They're integrating as much Tango software/developments into ARCore which doesn't require specialized sensors and would be capable of being used on most any modern smartphone without major issues.The only dumb move would be to continue sinking heavy development costs into hardware hardly anybody really wants to buy. (See shrinking sales of dedicated VR headsets for PCs.)
This was the only logical move.
Reflex - Monday, December 18, 2017 - link
While I don't disagree with your point, is there data that dedicated VR headset sales are shrinking? They certainly have not taken off like everyone would have hoped, but they are still growing the last I saw numbers for them. Is there data that says otherwise?Alexvrb - Monday, December 18, 2017 - link
I don't think he's correct on VR headset sales. From what I've read their sales are not as good as projected a few years back, but they are still slowly growing. The recent increased competition created by the entry of WMR headsets will help to drive further growth. The WMR headsets also feature inside-out tracking which is less expensive and less cumbersome than having to buy external trackers.But what they really need the most are killer apps... solid games that stand on their own merits AND are substantially better in VR. I've often said I don't plan to buy a VR headset until MechWarrior 5: Mercenaries is released. :D
FunBunny2 - Monday, December 18, 2017 - link
"But what they really need the most are killer apps"here's the creator of the last such, anywhere: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitch_Kapor
Manch - Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - link
Sales finally busted 1mil quarterly combined sales. More games are coming out. movement systems are being refined, and new engines are supporting VR and more importantly crossfire/SLI. The key though has always been price point. That is finally down to the point where it's no longer a significant investment.mode_13h - Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - link
We're in that post-hype phase of the current VR/AR bubble, where all the nay-sayers are starting to feel vindicated. Meanwhile, the tech is continuing to evolve and many are quietly playing the long game. The hype-cycle is unfortunate, but seems an unavoidable part of technology development.Tim Cook is a believer in AR and once Apple finally releases their iGlasses, they will be seen as visionary geniuses. iPhone wasn't the first smartphone, but Apple kept their powder dry and didn't launch it till the tech was ready.
mode_13h - Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - link
This view only makes sense if believe the only devices people will ever use are smartphones. In that case, it's hard to see how Tango apps hit critical mass enough for smartphone makers to add the extra $30 or whatever to their BoM for a depth sensor (many phones already have a second image sensor).But when view as enabling Hololens-style AR headsets (another example: Magic Leap), Tango really makes a lot of sense. The problem is what to do until then. So, ARCore seems a reasonable stop-gap measure.
What's unfortunate is that, as I understand it (and I've not had a chance to really dig into it) ARCore lacks some significant functionality that Tango provided. In order to kill off Tango, ARCore really needs to offer the same functionality on hardware with the same capabilities that Tango used.
IMO, what really forced Google hand was Facebook and Apple, both of whom offered competing functionality to ARCore. Google doesn't want to cede this ground to them, so that's why they're focusing their development effort on it and pushing their most sophisticated AR app developers onto it.
Tango will be missed.
nerd1 - Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - link
RGBD cameras are not that expensive, heck even apple is putting one to their phone and I am very sure every android companies will follow.peevee - Monday, December 18, 2017 - link
Depth info can be achieved simply by 2 regular cameras. Just like, you know, your eyes do.Manch - Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - link
regular cameras don't work the same as our eyes. And as the op said, standard vision cannot FULLY substitute depth info, which he is very correct in that. The tech was pricey but no more than a lot of other features added to phones and would have eventually come down. I think it sucks they're abandoning it bc using regular dual cameras just doesn't work as good and therefore the apps wont work as good which makes nobody want it.mode_13h - Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - link
Tango devices used BOTH stereo cameras AND an active depth sensor (either structured light or time-of-flight). The reason being that accurate stereo requires a good amount of texture and illumination, while active depth sensors are limited by range & ambient lighting.As someone who's written Tango apps and has two iterations of Tango hardware, I assure you that even two-sensor smart phones aren't a satisfactory replacement for those cases where you really care about scene geometry.
Single-camera SLAM systems work adequately for a subset of use cases, such as dealing with non-moving objects, finding the ground plane, and coarse obstacle detection. While that's good enough for a significant subset of AR apps, there's still a significant number of INTERESTING things you can do with the addition of a depth sensor and a second camera.
nerd1 - Wednesday, December 20, 2017 - link
You need a well calibrated and synchronized cameras, enough features and long baseline to get any usable depth data. You can get some depth data from monocular camera + IMU, but that method requires a lot of processing, and much noisier than simple RGBD camera.mode_13h - Wednesday, December 20, 2017 - link
It's funny how you talk about "RGBD" cameras like depth is just another wavelength. I'm basically with you, but it's not like all non-stereo depth sensing technologies don't each have their share of limitations.Depth and stereo are complementary. And rather than simple stereo, what I'd really like is a plenoptic camera.
BillBear - Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - link
Apple got more developer buy in before ARKit came out of beta than Google got long after Tango's release, because Apple's version of the tech was going to end up in the hands of users.Of course Google followed suit. They were getting bad press and are dedicated to the fast follower strategy.
Dug - Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - link
Google shutting down a project? How many companies have they bought, and then just let all development drop? Not saying this shouldn't be dropped, but they just keep doing this and ruining things for other people.