With facial recognition you can't have 100% display. The front cam can be tucked behind the display and pop up when you open the camera app to enable 100% screen to body ratio but with facial recognition you can't do that (not practical). Facial recognition is also less than ideal for folks that cover their faces on a regular basis like wearing a burqa, surgical masks in Japan or pollution masks in China, some types of glasses, some types of winter outfits.
Ofc a really fast fingerprint scanner in the power button to enable a single click wake and unlock would maybe be best solution and certainly much cheaper.
Completely agree with your last point concerning the sensor being apart of the power button, even though I haven't done much research into it. I know Sony had a similar solution introduced years ago not sure why it hasn't seen widespread adoption; maybe too big of a button, slow activation time, too power hungry, low accuracy...?
No idea why, maybe it's just Sony's minimal influence and poor product design from others, maybe it's the size of the button. This is about convenience so as long as we need the power button to turn the display on, integrating the two seems ideal. In theory, facial recognition could also turn the display on but it's not quite good enough for that yet and there won't be room for it on the front anyway. By the time 3D sensing can be integrated in the display stack, smartphones will be replaced by glasses so it's really less than ideal to bother with it, it's simply too late for it.
Apple could adapt this concept to FaceID, and have that array of sensors under the screen. Maybe even the camera. The trick is going to be to make the screen translucent from the bottom and top layer.
With the camera, likely the biggest problem are the optics, you can't put it in the display as long as you have optics so we would need image sensors that do not require traditional optics. In any case, considering where they are today ,it would take quite a few years to evolve it that way and by then, glasses should become more important. With glasses, 3D depth sensors are fundamental for gesture recognition, virtual keyboards, 3D mapping and so on. With glasses the biggest problem would be power and heat, no need for display integration but active illumination (the IR and dot projector) is maybe less than ideal and they would have to find the right balance between active and passive illumination.
Synaptics has made it clear months ago that this first device is from a phone maker from China And they also made it rather clear that they don't have the fingerprint sensor in the Galaxy S9.
Unclear how they define top 5, if they look at H1 or Q3 as Xiaomi is in top 5 now but in the first half Vivo was there while Xiaomi wasn't. I suspect it's Xiaomi too but can't be sure. Huawei already launched it's flagships so likely not, OPPO is possible though.
Either way, we should see more devices using it towards the middle of the year.
I'm not really a huge fan of biometric authentication at least not as the only factor in authentication. I can change a password, but I can't really get new fingerprints if they get compromised. Most peoples' phones have a bunch of their life stored on them or within reach of the device automatically through stuff like banking or e-mail apps. If security is important, biometrics are a kinda bad way of keeping stuff safe.
I don't like them either but figured out a way to make it work in the future.
In a couple of years or so, such solutions will cover the entire display. At that point you can have password and fingerprint at the same time and even use multiple fingers if you want when you type the PW. Ofc assuming the sensor gets a lot faster as right now it's way too slow at 0.7s.
Also don't worry about the fact that this is a CMOS sensor. Not capacitive, not ultrasonic, just a CMOS sensor taking a "high resolution" picture of a 2D reflection. This has to be difficult to fool right?
Since it has active illumination, it should be a bit smarter that a simple 2D image. The algorithms overall are quite mature and Synaptics is seeing security as a selling point vs other vendors. Can't comment on how effective their use of machine learning is in avoiding spoofs , maybe an article on that topic would be interesting.
It's one CMOS sensor, 2D images is all it can do. Illumination is there so it can capture the reflected image (can't have an image or a reflection without some sort of illumination, can you?) but it definitely can't capture depth or anything like that.
This is another simple case of form over function. Amazes the simpletons but that's about it.
The fingerprint is 3D and with active illumination from the display's subpixels (many light sources at different angles and colors) , you can distinguish between a 3D FP and a picture of a FP. It's safe to assume that they also look at how the light is reflected to confirm that it is skin. If they can go beyond that , like detect blood flow, I do not know at this point. Remember that they have only up to 1.5mm distance between the finger and the sensor and less than that between the finger and the subpixes so it's not at all as dumb as you are trying to make it.
There has to be an award somewhere for the person who posts the largest quantity of incorrect forum responses in a year. There is no other justification for ddriver's existence.
I'm going to make it as simple as I can make it, just for you: they are imaging A REFLECTION ON A FLAT SURFACE. The article says "captures the reflected fingerprint". Can you imagine how a flat reflection can turn into a 3D image? This is the exact article posted on other sites so we can assume it's actually coming from the manufacturer, do you see any mention of 3D? Do you think Synaptics would forget that they have this capability?
That's because biometrics are only one part of a proper authentication process. It is a "who you are" requirement that should be augmented with a "what you know" or "what you have" aspect. I wish I could set my phone to require a fingerprint and a PIN OR a really long password without fingerprint.
Yeah, I totally agree which is why I said I don't like it as the only factor in authentication which was to imply multi-factor that included it was a better option. Even then, I still think using something that can't be changed ever is a bad idea and its typical inclusion in a multi-factor authentication mechanisms is asking for problems in the future when people figure out how to exploit those systems.
Short term maybe yes, long term no. Synaptics has the habit to integrate. Right now they are integrating the display driver and the touch controller (they call it TDDI) and in the future they'll also integrate the fingerprint and maybe more.
Sensor on the back is easier when you've got the phone in your hand, on the front is (a lot) easier when it's not.
I don't really see why we can't have both. Put a sensor behind the display and one on the back and you could use whichever is most convenient at the moment.
Great. Facial recognition, iris scanning and rear placed fingerprint readers simply suck. I simply don't care for those.
Too bad this won't make it to the S9. Not that I'm upset, my S7e is still going strong. But 7nm, in-display fingerprint sensor, the rumored battery tech and hopefully a new design with a more subdued curve should make the GS10 a much worthy upgrade.
Personally, I’m not sure I’d pay extra for it, but it widens the choices.
I wouldn’t pay extra for 18:9, it gives me nothing I value. I would pay extra for 16:10, which I enjoyed ever since my first Galaxy note. Perhaps I’d pay even extra for 2:3. Got fingers that a long enough and I read a lot more than I watch videos on my ultramobile PC.
Security is broken on these devices anyway, so I don’t keep anything on it, that my economic or physical well-being depends on: If someone gets a copy of my 80GB classic CD collection, offline navigation maps or my even my private e-mail, that’s survivable.
So after some years of messing with pattern unlock, I decided to simply leave the phone open: Too complex a pattern, I’d waste concentration unlocking the phone, too simple it became ineffective, because anyone could observe. The phone doesn’t leave my immediate surroundings, so physical security is my biggest “protection”.
To me the built-in front-facing finger print sensor in my current Oneplus 5 initially was simply a free addition to the home-button. It would reduce the damage if a thief were to grab the phone from my hands, so that’s cool.
I like the fact that it is physical, that is locatable by touch without looking and that it works with several fingers/thumbs, so I can unlock it from many positions and without exclusive use of one hand. I like it much more front facing than with a back-side sensor, especially when mounted in the car, where picking it up becomes a punishable offense, whilst touching it mounted is (so far) no different from using a car radio.
For me the key to accepting finger print unlock was that I didn’t have to do anything different: I touched the home button on my other phones to activate them and I did that independently of whether they were lying on the table, mounted in the car or if I actually picked it up to hold in my hand. The only difference is that I tend to use one of my thumbs when I pick it up and a finger when it’s lying or mounted. I only ever use two hands when I have to type something.
I haven’t ever tried face unlock, but it only ever makes sense when you keep your phone constantly in your hand. As a computer professional my primary is still a physical keyboard and a much bigger display (I'd so love it for my mobile to run my screens and keyboards, but, alas, everybody seems to conspire to have me buy another Snapdragon 835 for the desktop, even if mine has 8GB of RAM and 128GB of SSD), so it spends much more time lying on the table or mounted in the car: I wouldn’t know how face-unlock would work there, and I’d hate to meet someone on the road, who tries to face-unlock his phone: It’s bad enough as it is. And I don’t think it gets better, if they have to use the backface fingerprint sensor or enter a complex PIN code in “hands-free” mode. The finger print augmented home button on the front works the same in all scenarios and that I consider a mandatory feature. I had Le Max 2 with a back-side finger print sensor before, but having to differentiate between hand-held and hands-free was so much of a bother I simply kept it unlocked, too.
You can’t get changeable batteries any more, nor a plastic chassis for a premium phone (who cares what’s underneath the silicon sleeve?). So perhaps the next thing to go away forever is the physical home button, because smombies rule the world of phone design.
This hidden home button will allow me to ignore the questionable benefits of fashion and design improvements so I’m glad it’s there.
In short: I don't mind when phone get thinner, have bigger displays or become more "beautiful". But when any of these "improvements" compromise functionality, safety, ergonomics or plain usefulness, it's a no-go.
For me it's tool primarily, not a fashion accessory. Yes, I am late middle age and male and I guess that affects my bias.
I agree about front facing sensors, they're much easier to use when the phone is on a table or in a car mount, which is probably 90% of the time. A rear sensor works better when you're on the move.
I use the rear sensor on my phone more as a password shortcut. It also unlocks my Keepass keyring for basic website logins but private stuff like email and banking logins are on separate keyrings that require typing in long passwords. Maybe someone should make a password app that uses multiple fingers in sequence e.g. index finger, middle finger, then thumb to open a keyring.
I don't know, a 2:3 phone feels like it would be awkward to handle with one hand. I like the display of my Galaxy S7 Edge. I wish they made the S8 the size of that screen and just removed the bezels completely instead of replacing them with more screen.
I'm so happy to see that this product requires OLED displays. I'm tired of seeing great looking flagship phones getting announced with LCDs. That just kills it for me. Having a dash mount for my phone I will never buy a backlit display again given the choice. I hate the glowing rectangle.
I'm not doing professional photography on my phone, I don't care that the colors aren't perfectly accurate, true black is worth it.
That's funny since I personally won't be buying any phone without LCD display until mLED becomes viable and replaces OLED. That's why there are LCD flagships, for people like myself who don't jump to new technologies just because it's the new 'cool' feature.
This might be a innovative technology, however, the constrain is must go with an OLED display, which I consider it is a huge drawback. And when I will not buy this kind of technology until it has breakthrough to deploy on any kind of display.
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A5 - Thursday, December 14, 2017 - link
It has to be Samsung, right?nerd1 - Thursday, December 14, 2017 - link
It would be quite fun to see apple ditch the "notch" and facial detection this time....peevee - Thursday, December 14, 2017 - link
Both can be made available. It is not like Apple's phones are too cheap for that.jjj - Thursday, December 14, 2017 - link
With facial recognition you can't have 100% display. The front cam can be tucked behind the display and pop up when you open the camera app to enable 100% screen to body ratio but with facial recognition you can't do that (not practical). Facial recognition is also less than ideal for folks that cover their faces on a regular basis like wearing a burqa, surgical masks in Japan or pollution masks in China, some types of glasses, some types of winter outfits.Ofc a really fast fingerprint scanner in the power button to enable a single click wake and unlock would maybe be best solution and certainly much cheaper.
SunnyNW - Thursday, December 14, 2017 - link
Completely agree with your last point concerning the sensor being apart of the power button, even though I haven't done much research into it. I know Sony had a similar solution introduced years ago not sure why it hasn't seen widespread adoption; maybe too big of a button, slow activation time, too power hungry, low accuracy...?jjj - Thursday, December 14, 2017 - link
No idea why, maybe it's just Sony's minimal influence and poor product design from others, maybe it's the size of the button.This is about convenience so as long as we need the power button to turn the display on, integrating the two seems ideal. In theory, facial recognition could also turn the display on but it's not quite good enough for that yet and there won't be room for it on the front anyway. By the time 3D sensing can be integrated in the display stack, smartphones will be replaced by glasses so it's really less than ideal to bother with it, it's simply too late for it.
Samus - Thursday, December 14, 2017 - link
Apple could adapt this concept to FaceID, and have that array of sensors under the screen. Maybe even the camera. The trick is going to be to make the screen translucent from the bottom and top layer.jjj - Friday, December 15, 2017 - link
With the camera, likely the biggest problem are the optics, you can't put it in the display as long as you have optics so we would need image sensors that do not require traditional optics. In any case, considering where they are today ,it would take quite a few years to evolve it that way and by then, glasses should become more important. With glasses, 3D depth sensors are fundamental for gesture recognition, virtual keyboards, 3D mapping and so on. With glasses the biggest problem would be power and heat, no need for display integration but active illumination (the IR and dot projector) is maybe less than ideal and they would have to find the right balance between active and passive illumination.jjj - Friday, December 15, 2017 - link
PS: Apple did buy InVisage and likely the first application they will be targeting with the InVisage image sensors is IR and not the main cameras.jjj - Thursday, December 14, 2017 - link
No it is not Samsung for sure.Synaptics has made it clear months ago that this first device is from a phone maker from China And they also made it rather clear that they don't have the fingerprint sensor in the Galaxy S9.
kpkp - Thursday, December 14, 2017 - link
I would bet on Xiaomi (Mi 7), the top 5 smartphone maker...jjj - Thursday, December 14, 2017 - link
Unclear how they define top 5, if they look at H1 or Q3 as Xiaomi is in top 5 now but in the first half Vivo was there while Xiaomi wasn't. I suspect it's Xiaomi too but can't be sure. Huawei already launched it's flagships so likely not, OPPO is possible though.Either way, we should see more devices using it towards the middle of the year.
serendip - Friday, December 15, 2017 - link
Mi Mix 3? The Mix 1 and 2 didn't sell well, maybe Xiaomi will combine the Mix 3 and Mi 7 into one flagship device.Or it could be OnePlus using this fingerprint reader in the OP6...
jjj - Friday, December 15, 2017 - link
Turns out that it's Vivo https://twitter.com/PatrickMoorhead/status/9414535...PeachNCream - Thursday, December 14, 2017 - link
I'm not really a huge fan of biometric authentication at least not as the only factor in authentication. I can change a password, but I can't really get new fingerprints if they get compromised. Most peoples' phones have a bunch of their life stored on them or within reach of the device automatically through stuff like banking or e-mail apps. If security is important, biometrics are a kinda bad way of keeping stuff safe.jjj - Thursday, December 14, 2017 - link
I don't like them either but figured out a way to make it work in the future.In a couple of years or so, such solutions will cover the entire display. At that point you can have password and fingerprint at the same time and even use multiple fingers if you want when you type the PW. Ofc assuming the sensor gets a lot faster as right now it's way too slow at 0.7s.
ddrіver - Friday, December 15, 2017 - link
Also don't worry about the fact that this is a CMOS sensor. Not capacitive, not ultrasonic, just a CMOS sensor taking a "high resolution" picture of a 2D reflection. This has to be difficult to fool right?jjj - Friday, December 15, 2017 - link
Since it has active illumination, it should be a bit smarter that a simple 2D image. The algorithms overall are quite mature and Synaptics is seeing security as a selling point vs other vendors. Can't comment on how effective their use of machine learning is in avoiding spoofs , maybe an article on that topic would be interesting.ddrіver - Friday, December 15, 2017 - link
It's one CMOS sensor, 2D images is all it can do. Illumination is there so it can capture the reflected image (can't have an image or a reflection without some sort of illumination, can you?) but it definitely can't capture depth or anything like that.This is another simple case of form over function. Amazes the simpletons but that's about it.
jjj - Friday, December 15, 2017 - link
The fingerprint is 3D and with active illumination from the display's subpixels (many light sources at different angles and colors) , you can distinguish between a 3D FP and a picture of a FP. It's safe to assume that they also look at how the light is reflected to confirm that it is skin. If they can go beyond that , like detect blood flow, I do not know at this point.Remember that they have only up to 1.5mm distance between the finger and the sensor and less than that between the finger and the subpixes so it's not at all as dumb as you are trying to make it.
FullmetalTitan - Friday, December 15, 2017 - link
There has to be an award somewhere for the person who posts the largest quantity of incorrect forum responses in a year. There is no other justification for ddriver's existence.ddrіver - Saturday, December 16, 2017 - link
FullmetalTitan, I've seen more intelligent comments on CNN.ddrіver - Saturday, December 16, 2017 - link
I'm going to make it as simple as I can make it, just for you: they are imaging A REFLECTION ON A FLAT SURFACE. The article says "captures the reflected fingerprint". Can you imagine how a flat reflection can turn into a 3D image?This is the exact article posted on other sites so we can assume it's actually coming from the manufacturer, do you see any mention of 3D? Do you think Synaptics would forget that they have this capability?
jordanclock - Thursday, December 14, 2017 - link
That's because biometrics are only one part of a proper authentication process. It is a "who you are" requirement that should be augmented with a "what you know" or "what you have" aspect. I wish I could set my phone to require a fingerprint and a PIN OR a really long password without fingerprint.PeachNCream - Thursday, December 14, 2017 - link
Yeah, I totally agree which is why I said I don't like it as the only factor in authentication which was to imply multi-factor that included it was a better option. Even then, I still think using something that can't be changed ever is a bad idea and its typical inclusion in a multi-factor authentication mechanisms is asking for problems in the future when people figure out how to exploit those systems.Samus - Thursday, December 14, 2017 - link
Wow, I couldn't see myself using a device without a fingerprint sensor. I hate passwords. My Apple Watch actually unlocks my Mac when I walk up to it.Devo2007 - Thursday, December 14, 2017 - link
Wonder if this will make screens harder to replacejjj - Thursday, December 14, 2017 - link
Short term maybe yes, long term no.Synaptics has the habit to integrate. Right now they are integrating the display driver and the touch controller (they call it TDDI) and in the future they'll also integrate the fingerprint and maybe more.
edzieba - Thursday, December 14, 2017 - link
The downside is you no longer have the fingerprint sensor on the back. Where it should be.piroroadkill - Friday, December 15, 2017 - link
I have a phone with one on the back, and honestly I think one on the front would be better - easier to unlock while the phone sits on a table...Raniz - Friday, December 15, 2017 - link
Sensor on the back is easier when you've got the phone in your hand, on the front is (a lot) easier when it's not.I don't really see why we can't have both. Put a sensor behind the display and one on the back and you could use whichever is most convenient at the moment.
lazarpandar - Thursday, December 14, 2017 - link
This is actually quite a surprise.lilmoe - Thursday, December 14, 2017 - link
Great. Facial recognition, iris scanning and rear placed fingerprint readers simply suck. I simply don't care for those.Too bad this won't make it to the S9. Not that I'm upset, my S7e is still going strong. But 7nm, in-display fingerprint sensor, the rumored battery tech and hopefully a new design with a more subdued curve should make the GS10 a much worthy upgrade.
Yea, I'll wait.
abufrejoval - Thursday, December 14, 2017 - link
That’s cool technology!Personally, I’m not sure I’d pay extra for it, but it widens the choices.
I wouldn’t pay extra for 18:9, it gives me nothing I value. I would pay extra for 16:10, which I enjoyed ever since my first Galaxy note. Perhaps I’d pay even extra for 2:3. Got fingers that a long enough and I read a lot more than I watch videos on my ultramobile PC.
Security is broken on these devices anyway, so I don’t keep anything on it, that my economic or physical well-being depends on: If someone gets a copy of my 80GB classic CD collection, offline navigation maps or my even my private e-mail, that’s survivable.
So after some years of messing with pattern unlock, I decided to simply leave the phone open: Too complex a pattern, I’d waste concentration unlocking the phone, too simple it became ineffective, because anyone could observe. The phone doesn’t leave my immediate surroundings, so physical security is my biggest “protection”.
To me the built-in front-facing finger print sensor in my current Oneplus 5 initially was simply a free addition to the home-button. It would reduce the damage if a thief were to grab the phone from my hands, so that’s cool.
I like the fact that it is physical, that is locatable by touch without looking and that it works with several fingers/thumbs, so I can unlock it from many positions and without exclusive use of one hand. I like it much more front facing than with a back-side sensor, especially when mounted in the car, where picking it up becomes a punishable offense, whilst touching it mounted is (so far) no different from using a car radio.
For me the key to accepting finger print unlock was that I didn’t have to do anything different: I touched the home button on my other phones to activate them and I did that independently of whether they were lying on the table, mounted in the car or if I actually picked it up to hold in my hand. The only difference is that I tend to use one of my thumbs when I pick it up and a finger when it’s lying or mounted. I only ever use two hands when I have to type something.
I haven’t ever tried face unlock, but it only ever makes sense when you keep your phone constantly in your hand. As a computer professional my primary is still a physical keyboard and a much bigger display (I'd so love it for my mobile to run my screens and keyboards, but, alas, everybody seems to conspire to have me buy another Snapdragon 835 for the desktop, even if mine has 8GB of RAM and 128GB of SSD), so it spends much more time lying on the table or mounted in the car: I wouldn’t know how face-unlock would work there, and I’d hate to meet someone on the road, who tries to face-unlock his phone: It’s bad enough as it is. And I don’t think it gets better, if they have to use the backface fingerprint sensor or enter a complex PIN code in “hands-free” mode. The finger print augmented home button on the front works the same in all scenarios and that I consider a mandatory feature. I had Le Max 2 with a back-side finger print sensor before, but having to differentiate between hand-held and hands-free was so much of a bother I simply kept it unlocked, too.
You can’t get changeable batteries any more, nor a plastic chassis for a premium phone (who cares what’s underneath the silicon sleeve?). So perhaps the next thing to go away forever is the physical home button, because smombies rule the world of phone design.
This hidden home button will allow me to ignore the questionable benefits of fashion and design improvements so I’m glad it’s there.
In short: I don't mind when phone get thinner, have bigger displays or become more "beautiful". But when any of these "improvements" compromise functionality, safety, ergonomics or plain usefulness, it's a no-go.
For me it's tool primarily, not a fashion accessory. Yes, I am late middle age and male and I guess that affects my bias.
serendip - Friday, December 15, 2017 - link
I agree about front facing sensors, they're much easier to use when the phone is on a table or in a car mount, which is probably 90% of the time. A rear sensor works better when you're on the move.I use the rear sensor on my phone more as a password shortcut. It also unlocks my Keepass keyring for basic website logins but private stuff like email and banking logins are on separate keyrings that require typing in long passwords. Maybe someone should make a password app that uses multiple fingers in sequence e.g. index finger, middle finger, then thumb to open a keyring.
Raniz - Friday, December 15, 2017 - link
I don't know, a 2:3 phone feels like it would be awkward to handle with one hand. I like the display of my Galaxy S7 Edge. I wish they made the S8 the size of that screen and just removed the bezels completely instead of replacing them with more screen.wolrah - Friday, December 15, 2017 - link
I'm so happy to see that this product requires OLED displays. I'm tired of seeing great looking flagship phones getting announced with LCDs. That just kills it for me. Having a dash mount for my phone I will never buy a backlit display again given the choice. I hate the glowing rectangle.I'm not doing professional photography on my phone, I don't care that the colors aren't perfectly accurate, true black is worth it.
vladx - Monday, December 18, 2017 - link
That's funny since I personally won't be buying any phone without LCD display until mLED becomes viable and replaces OLED. That's why there are LCD flagships, for people like myself who don't jump to new technologies just because it's the new 'cool' feature.clie1972 - Tuesday, February 6, 2018 - link
This might be a innovative technology, however, the constrain is must go with an OLED display, which I consider it is a huge drawback. And when I will not buy this kind of technology until it has breakthrough to deploy on any kind of display.