That's assuming that things stay the same. Things could get massively better, or massively worse. If they go from strength to strength now and start earning massive profits then it will look like a great move in 10 years time.
Lets hope that as EPYC starts to sell more and more, those ASPs will double or maybe even triple from the current levels. Therefore those 19 years will most likely be 5 years.
That statement presumes that this particular income will persist, which is very unlikely for AMD.
If you look at their overall performance, their average performance yields a net loss of 7-8 billion $ IIRC. AMD has always been a black hole, it has NEVER been in the black on average, which begs the question why even bother with it?
Which is where my conspiracy theory comes in, that AMD is secretly being kept alive by Intel in order to limit their monopoly to practical by introducing at least a theoretical competitor figure to the equation.
Crazy I know, but with the amount of money Intel is pocketing, it wouldn't actually be much of a burden for them, and will actually represent a tremendously lucrative investment with huge returns in profits.
But if someone else has a better theory, I am open :) Fact is, overall AMD hasn't made any money, so far it has lost billions, and is unlikely to ever net in the positive in the years to come.
Im sure there is something to your conspiracy ddriver. Although I don't think it is so direct but I do think Intel does not want to see AMD die off. Intel benefits a ton from AMD as they can slow down progress when AMD isn't competing thus making more money off little R&D efforts while they put those efforts into more future looking products like Ice Lake all the while not being deemed a monopoly.
Of course it cannot be directly. Money passes at least through several proxies before it goes from intel to amd.
Intel enjoys merely symbolic competition, pockets in dozens of billions while doing next to nothing over the course of several years, then allows amd to be competitive for a while, just to reinforce the illusion of competition.
BTW knowing when amd gets to be competitive open up a door to tremendous profit opportunities on its own, you basically know when and how stock prices will move. Needless to say, you don't do that directly either, you use your indirection proxies to do it, and probably give them all the profits as a reward for their service, which helps to evade suspicion even more. On the surface it looks like business, but underneath it is the tentacles of the same evil working together, as they say, one hand washes the other, there is nothing more do discover :)
Actually you'd find a 'theory' isn't just "a random bunch of made up stuff", which even goes for 'fact' these days in politics.
Realize that the Theory of Gravity, the Theory of Relativity or the Theory of Evolution are all based on solid evidence gathered over decades of work and, more importantly, form the underpinnings of countless other theories, technologies and techniques which power our every-day life. Eg if the theory of gravity was as vague as yours, rockets wouldn't go far. If the theory of relativity wasn't as reliable as it is counter-intuitive, our GPS devices wouldn't work at all. And without evolution, countless phenomena in nature would make no sense, leaving biologists unable to predict or manage and influence them.
@ddriver: Gentle reminder (in defense of our language) that "begs the question" doesn't mean "raises the question". Not even close. Please use "raises" where that is your intent.
Thanks, I will make a note of it ;) TBH I've always interpreted that in a purely logical way, yet it seems the actual idiom takes departure from logic. Possibly a case of mistranslation from ancient Greek, however as it is the accepted context I am inclined to do what great people do in such cases, which is admit to their faults :)
Ah, no wonder it makes zero logical sense. It is after all the product of mistranslation. In light of this I will continue using it in the context of "prompting one to raise a question", and to those who criticize that use I will answer that insisting in the correctness of a mistranslation is simply dumb.
BTW this is not a case of misusing an overheard and misunderstood phrase, but simply the logical speech construct closest to illustrating my point.
@ddriver: Wikipedia has a good article, which I suppose you saw but read too fast. The fact that a minor mistranslation is involved in deriving today's English words from the Latin is immaterial since, even directly translated, the meaning is the same. To "beg the question" means "to assume that the question has been answered". You can either misuse the phrase and contribute to its demise and the impoverishment of our language - or use "raises the question" when that was your intent.
Everything leads to a conspiracy theory for you. AMD is not the only company that has done nothing but lose money for most of their existence, have fun with the history of Tivo or dozens of giant Japanese corporations. Or Airbus.
So long as a company can sucker in additional investors they can continue to lose money consistently. AMD has done that very well repeatedly (just ask the Saudis). Uber is a relatively new entrant into the world of financial black holes.
Why do you think the CPU and GPU market is a "legacy, declining industry"
All the growth predictions I've seen for the microprocessor markets are a slow but steady growth, except in smartphones and IoT which is a fast and steady growth.
Your suggestion that this is a "pump and dump" is quite suspect as well (and borderline libel, hope you used an anonymiser to post this) - this is a factual reporting of trading, surely? Pump-and-dump scams require some untruthfulness.
You need to look up the definition of "rhetorical question", because some of us here genuinely want to know why you think processing (both GPU and CPU) is somehow in decline or due to be soon.
Firstly, shill isn't a name, so it doesn't need to be capitalised. If you're going to troll it might be a good idea to learn the grammatical rules of the language you're trolling in, otherwise it's like shooting the proverbial fish in the proverbial barrel.
Secondly, a rhetorical question is one which you ask without expecting an answer. While that might technically be correct, as you are a troll who is only interested in being abusive, I was hoping for an answer. Why do you think that the CPU and GPU markets are legacy and declining industries? You're very quick to label Anandtech as "hype train pump and dumps" but strangely slow to actually justify that view.
Thirdly, I'm in the UK and 10 cents is largely worthless to me, it'll be eaten up by commission charges. Can I have 10 good old British pennies instead please?
To me "Legacy, declining industry" means desktop market
It hard to say smartphones are desktop replacements.
But I think the real deal - is that people (non gamers and engineering types) have a computer that does the job enough and don't need to upgrade - some even don't need the power of real computer and all they need is something for email/surfing wave and a tablet like iPad or Android can be all they need.
They are big in gaming, and gaming is a growing industry. Desktop CPUs is a declining market, but they have had such small market share that it is a genuine growth opportunity for them. They are well-positioned for a piece of the VR market if and when it takes off, and who knows, maybe cryptocurrency will stick around for a while. They also have their toes in the water in data center and AI GPU acceleration, markets with huge growth opportunity. They have a lot of work to do to tap into that market, though.
I am not bullish on AMD. One has to wonder at what cost AMD averted their debt crisis, invested heavily in reviving their CPU business, and became profitable. I think it may cost them GPU-related opportunities for some time to come. But it's not accurate to say they don't have
My guess is that AMD makes little to no profit supplying the chipsets/CPU/GPU for the PS4/XBONE, which is probably how they got the contract instead of Intel and/or Nvidia.
The enterprise, embedded, and semi-custom segment of their earnings results over the past few years suggest otherwise. It's mostly been made up of console SoC sales over that time period, and has been profitable. They seem to be willing to take smaller margins than NVIDIA and Intel are, but they do well enough to make some profit. It's their computing and graphics segment that has been bleeding money. That includes their desktop and notebook CPU, GPU, and APU sales. The computing and graphics segment also includes their cryptocurrency GPU sales, which most likely is the biggest reason it's done much better the last two quarters. However, I do think that Ryzen must be giving them some lift over their pre-Ryzen CPU sales. At this point, I'm not convinced Vega has been much better for them in the high-end gaming GPU space than Fury was.
I believe I heard that Majority of this debt is due in 2018 on 71million is small change for 1.4 million
I don't believe industry is declining unless you mean desktop computers - it involving especially in mobile market - so need for low power battery operated devices in big.
Even though phones take hunk out of computing market - they are not really
But it funny how this world can allow people and company to be in such debt and still put money into them.
What is "legacy" about the industry that they're in? I would say that CPUs and GPUs for PCs is a mature market, but not one that has been replaced by anything.
Nobody is doing real computing-related work on a phone. Servers and workstations still need CPUs and GPUs. Laptops need them too. Steam has 150 million registered users, meaning that it dwarfs all other platforms for gaming. AMD's target market isn't going away anytime soon.
It had become harder to justify upgrading your desktop's CPU every couple years recently, as the speed improvements had become more incremental, and keeping your old one for 5+ years became viable. Maybe with a core-count race though, that could change again.
Maybe AMD's resurgence could even be good for Intel, if it causes them to release higher core-count CPUs to the mass market, and developers respond by improving multithreading support in their applications and games.
"For what it's worth, they have a lower debt to asset ratio than Intel."
Cash flow is what will determine if a company can pay down its debt. Intel has massive free cash flow. AMD does not, they've been more negative than positive in FCF the last few years.
If Intel or AMD needs to start cannibalizing their assets to pay for their debt they are in bad shape. Especially AMD. Intel has various non-core assets they could sell off and still keep their core business intact. I don't think AMD does. AMD already sold off their foundry business.
According to Communism’s Morningstar link AMD’s debt to asset ratio is 2X Intel’s. And their cost of borrowing is 3-5X Intels since they’re near junk status. $1.3B coming due in Dec.
Actually most people in this world - don't really care. I think most of one are die hard tech people and kids now of days. I am one of the die hard tech people that had the original IBM PC. My first computer that I actually purchase was a 25 Mhz 386 that cost around $1600 and at the time until I took it home did not even realize it at AMD clone CPU. long time dead I believe I gave it some one family member and it for sure not being used.
Not good enough if you ask me. I don't see anything new from them, especially on the graphic side. "Good" is simply not enough if you are against both Nvidia and Intel at the same time.
Actually it really is enough. These numbers literally prove that.
Is it enough for you? No, probably not, given that you seem to think of the Zen architecture as "nothing new". Don't sit too long in that armchair, you'll get cramp.
How about mobile APUs, desktop APUs, and Navi? The Ryzen/Vega based APU's have GPU performance equivalent to the GTX 1050s, and CPU performance equivalent to the Intel -U series. If they can get some good OEM designs they should move a lot of them.
So your opinion of equivalent performance to the U-series Intels with 2-3x the TDP not being exactly a huge win is based on the Ryzen/Vega APUs in products that you cannot actually purchase or will be able to purchase in the short-term?
I think it will be interesting to see how AMD's mobile APU will compare with the likes of Intel's 8xxx ULV series. It is still too early to confirm what is the actual power requirement for AMD's APU, but I have to say that Intel is pushing it when they released the 4c/8t ULV processor with just 15W. I strongly believe that if you stress both CPU and GPU simultaneously, performance will take a heavy hit because of the TDP cap. Which is why I feel that there are a lot of laptop with an Intel 8xxx ULV series paired with an MX150 GPU to alleviate the power shortage on the CPU, but will add an additional 25W to the power draw. Also, I feel AMD is likely going to go with their aggressive pricing to make up for any deficit.
You DO realize the TDP values include the GPU which is vastly more powerful on the AMD side, right? Also, it's worth pointing out that AMD's TDP figures are the absolute max value and Intel's are more of a "typical" value so they can make their products look more efficient than they really are.
Typically AMD don't do well in the laptop segment, so I think don't think they will be able to get a lot of design wins with their mobile APUs. Having said that, the APUs are great for sub notebooks which should not cost too much but still offer decent gaming performance with its integrated graphics.
What makes this hard for AMD, is the laptop/tablet market is where the industry is involving.
With technology like Thunderbolt 3, you can have those powerful expensive external CPU's like GTX 1080 in SLI mode hook up dual Large 30in 4k Monitors with docking station and still have the portability of laptop.
The integrated GPU in laptop can handle most of what you need for portable needs and if needed you can hook it up to dock with external storage and such.
Once this technology gets to important where performance between desktop and mobile cpus is the same - the need for desktop goes completely away.
> Once this technology gets to important where performance between desktop and mobile cpus is the same - the need for desktop goes completely away.
So the only company which has the tech to deliver competitive CPUs and GPUs (APUs in other words) in one package for mobile is the one destined to fail?
Of course they do - there is need for dedicated GPU's in mobile side - and also in SLI on docking stations.
Do you really believe that all GPU's on mobile side are Integrated? I have multiple laptops with NVidia GPU
All I am saying for most customers ( mom and pops and even students ), the integrated GPU is all they will need. In fact a lot of this customers like my dad, really don't need a PC - maybe an iPad or Android will deal with them.
For me, I see the PC ( desktop ) is on it way out, but tablets ( including ARM based ) and laptop here to stay. I however do see much value in Windows based ARM device.
In my earlier days - desktops were only way to go - and NVidia was the best way go - Some people like ATI. I also found even building a desktop later on, it was nice to have Integrated GPU - just in case the card went bad - so at least I could recover the machine.
"We’ll have to wait and see how the console market plays out here, but it seems like it could finally be slowing down after several years of solid sales."
We probably see the results of Nintendo's Switch in the market.
Oh, my apologies then for my reaction. It was before reading your second post. It was in the next page and didn't notice.
With Nintendo having sold more than 6 million Switch consoles, that definitely means a few millions less orders for AMD custom chips from Microsoft and Sony. We will probably see this when Nvidia releases it's financials next month.
The 2DXXXL err Switch is doing great. That, combined with the pending release of the new XBOX, a decline is to be expected. I was going to spring for a XB1-S but decided to get Switch instead. I like many others can wait for the new XBOX as the S just doesn't offer enough tangible improvements to justify its existence.
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Communism - Tuesday, October 24, 2017 - link
For a company that is this far in debt in a "legacy," declining industry, the only thing that matters much at all is cashflow ops / total debt.http://quicktake.morningstar.com/StockNet/bonds.as...
Of course that's assuming anyone cares about fundamentals at all instead of hype train pump and dumps.
StrangerGuy - Tuesday, October 24, 2017 - link
At this rate of net income it's gonna take some further 19 years to earn back that $5.4 billion used to purchase ATI some 10 years ago.steve wilson - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
That's assuming that things stay the same. Things could get massively better, or massively worse. If they go from strength to strength now and start earning massive profits then it will look like a great move in 10 years time.IGTrading - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
Lets hope that as EPYC starts to sell more and more, those ASPs will double or maybe even triple from the current levels. Therefore those 19 years will most likely be 5 years.ddriver - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
"At this rate of net income"That statement presumes that this particular income will persist, which is very unlikely for AMD.
If you look at their overall performance, their average performance yields a net loss of 7-8 billion $ IIRC. AMD has always been a black hole, it has NEVER been in the black on average, which begs the question why even bother with it?
Which is where my conspiracy theory comes in, that AMD is secretly being kept alive by Intel in order to limit their monopoly to practical by introducing at least a theoretical competitor figure to the equation.
Crazy I know, but with the amount of money Intel is pocketing, it wouldn't actually be much of a burden for them, and will actually represent a tremendously lucrative investment with huge returns in profits.
But if someone else has a better theory, I am open :) Fact is, overall AMD hasn't made any money, so far it has lost billions, and is unlikely to ever net in the positive in the years to come.
FreckledTrout - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
Im sure there is something to your conspiracy ddriver. Although I don't think it is so direct but I do think Intel does not want to see AMD die off. Intel benefits a ton from AMD as they can slow down progress when AMD isn't competing thus making more money off little R&D efforts while they put those efforts into more future looking products like Ice Lake all the while not being deemed a monopoly.ddriver - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
Of course it cannot be directly. Money passes at least through several proxies before it goes from intel to amd.Intel enjoys merely symbolic competition, pockets in dozens of billions while doing next to nothing over the course of several years, then allows amd to be competitive for a while, just to reinforce the illusion of competition.
BTW knowing when amd gets to be competitive open up a door to tremendous profit opportunities on its own, you basically know when and how stock prices will move. Needless to say, you don't do that directly either, you use your indirection proxies to do it, and probably give them all the profits as a reward for their service, which helps to evade suspicion even more. On the surface it looks like business, but underneath it is the tentacles of the same evil working together, as they say, one hand washes the other, there is nothing more do discover :)
StevoLincolnite - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
Unless you have evidence for your conspiracy... It is pointless.ddriver - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
i suggest you lookup the word "theory" ;)jospoortvliet - Friday, October 27, 2017 - link
Actually you'd find a 'theory' isn't just "a random bunch of made up stuff", which even goes for 'fact' these days in politics.Realize that the Theory of Gravity, the Theory of Relativity or the Theory of Evolution are all based on solid evidence gathered over decades of work and, more importantly, form the underpinnings of countless other theories, technologies and techniques which power our every-day life. Eg if the theory of gravity was as vague as yours, rockets wouldn't go far. If the theory of relativity wasn't as reliable as it is counter-intuitive, our GPS devices wouldn't work at all. And without evolution, countless phenomena in nature would make no sense, leaving biologists unable to predict or manage and influence them.
acme64 - Tuesday, October 31, 2017 - link
the·o·rynoun
an idea used to account for a situation or justify a course of action.
Arbie - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
@ddriver: Gentle reminder (in defense of our language) that "begs the question" doesn't mean "raises the question". Not even close. Please use "raises" where that is your intent.ddriver - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
Thanks, I will make a note of it ;) TBH I've always interpreted that in a purely logical way, yet it seems the actual idiom takes departure from logic. Possibly a case of mistranslation from ancient Greek, however as it is the accepted context I am inclined to do what great people do in such cases, which is admit to their faults :)ddriver - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
Ah, no wonder it makes zero logical sense. It is after all the product of mistranslation. In light of this I will continue using it in the context of "prompting one to raise a question", and to those who criticize that use I will answer that insisting in the correctness of a mistranslation is simply dumb.BTW this is not a case of misusing an overheard and misunderstood phrase, but simply the logical speech construct closest to illustrating my point.
Arbie - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
@ddriver: Wikipedia has a good article, which I suppose you saw but read too fast. The fact that a minor mistranslation is involved in deriving today's English words from the Latin is immaterial since, even directly translated, the meaning is the same. To "beg the question" means "to assume that the question has been answered". You can either misuse the phrase and contribute to its demise and the impoverishment of our language - or use "raises the question" when that was your intent.Reflex - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
Everything leads to a conspiracy theory for you. AMD is not the only company that has done nothing but lose money for most of their existence, have fun with the history of Tivo or dozens of giant Japanese corporations. Or Airbus.So long as a company can sucker in additional investors they can continue to lose money consistently. AMD has done that very well repeatedly (just ask the Saudis). Uber is a relatively new entrant into the world of financial black holes.
No conspiracy required.
mkaibear - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
Why do you think the CPU and GPU market is a "legacy, declining industry"All the growth predictions I've seen for the microprocessor markets are a slow but steady growth, except in smartphones and IoT which is a fast and steady growth.
Your suggestion that this is a "pump and dump" is quite suspect as well (and borderline libel, hope you used an anonymiser to post this) - this is a factual reporting of trading, surely? Pump-and-dump scams require some untruthfulness.
Communism - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
Gotta get that 10 cents per post huh Shill?mkaibear - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
If I'm a shill I'm a shockingly bad one. Didn't mention any company, didn't jump to the defence of anyone except AT's news reporting...Has Purch (AT's parent company) done an IPO yet? I'm not even certain you can buy shares in Purch at the moment.
Want to try again?
(or alternatively you can tell me why you think that the CPU and GPU market is a "legacy, declining industry", like I originally asked.)
Communism - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
Keep up your rhetorical questions.10 more cents for you, Shill.
Gothmoth - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
you won the moron of the week award 56 weeks in a row now kneejerk.... time to try something else.Communism - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
10 more cents, and it appears, desperate enough to use a different account now.boozed - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
I think there's something wrong with youAndrewJacksonZA - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
With the current USD-ZAR exchange rate, can I also get USD0.10 a post? :-)Manch - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
Name is Communism....calls people shills.....bwaaahahahahahahhahaaaa!
Spunjji - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
You need to look up the definition of "rhetorical question", because some of us here genuinely want to know why you think processing (both GPU and CPU) is somehow in decline or due to be soon.mkaibear - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
Firstly, shill isn't a name, so it doesn't need to be capitalised. If you're going to troll it might be a good idea to learn the grammatical rules of the language you're trolling in, otherwise it's like shooting the proverbial fish in the proverbial barrel.Secondly, a rhetorical question is one which you ask without expecting an answer. While that might technically be correct, as you are a troll who is only interested in being abusive, I was hoping for an answer. Why do you think that the CPU and GPU markets are legacy and declining industries? You're very quick to label Anandtech as "hype train pump and dumps" but strangely slow to actually justify that view.
Thirdly, I'm in the UK and 10 cents is largely worthless to me, it'll be eaten up by commission charges. Can I have 10 good old British pennies instead please?
jabber - Tuesday, October 31, 2017 - link
Hey wait till Brexit really kicks in and those 10 cents could be worth the bother.III-V - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
You need to see a shrink.Arbie - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
@Communism: Save your abusive trolling for wccftech. We don't need it here.Alexvrb - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
You troll for free, so, I don't know if you should be talking smack about shills. There's a hilarious analogy about hookers there somewhere.Also, he doesn't strike me as a shill, and I can't find fault with his argument (although the libel part was pointless and unlikely).
HStewart - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
To me "Legacy, declining industry" means desktop marketIt hard to say smartphones are desktop replacements.
But I think the real deal - is that people (non gamers and engineering types) have a computer that does the job enough and don't need to upgrade - some even don't need the power of real computer and all they need is something for email/surfing wave and a tablet like iPad or Android can be all they need.
Yojimbo - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
They are big in gaming, and gaming is a growing industry. Desktop CPUs is a declining market, but they have had such small market share that it is a genuine growth opportunity for them. They are well-positioned for a piece of the VR market if and when it takes off, and who knows, maybe cryptocurrency will stick around for a while. They also have their toes in the water in data center and AI GPU acceleration, markets with huge growth opportunity. They have a lot of work to do to tap into that market, though.I am not bullish on AMD. One has to wonder at what cost AMD averted their debt crisis, invested heavily in reviving their CPU business, and became profitable. I think it may cost them GPU-related opportunities for some time to come. But it's not accurate to say they don't have
Yojimbo - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
...growth opportunities in front of them if they manage to execute.blppt - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
My guess is that AMD makes little to no profit supplying the chipsets/CPU/GPU for the PS4/XBONE, which is probably how they got the contract instead of Intel and/or Nvidia.Yojimbo - Tuesday, October 31, 2017 - link
The enterprise, embedded, and semi-custom segment of their earnings results over the past few years suggest otherwise. It's mostly been made up of console SoC sales over that time period, and has been profitable. They seem to be willing to take smaller margins than NVIDIA and Intel are, but they do well enough to make some profit. It's their computing and graphics segment that has been bleeding money. That includes their desktop and notebook CPU, GPU, and APU sales. The computing and graphics segment also includes their cryptocurrency GPU sales, which most likely is the biggest reason it's done much better the last two quarters. However, I do think that Ryzen must be giving them some lift over their pre-Ryzen CPU sales. At this point, I'm not convinced Vega has been much better for them in the high-end gaming GPU space than Fury was.HStewart - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
I believe I heard that Majority of this debt is due in 2018 on 71million is small change for 1.4 millionI don't believe industry is declining unless you mean desktop computers - it involving especially in mobile market - so need for low power battery operated devices in big.
Even though phones take hunk out of computing market - they are not really
But it funny how this world can allow people and company to be in such debt and still put money into them.
twtech - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
What is "legacy" about the industry that they're in? I would say that CPUs and GPUs for PCs is a mature market, but not one that has been replaced by anything.Nobody is doing real computing-related work on a phone. Servers and workstations still need CPUs and GPUs. Laptops need them too. Steam has 150 million registered users, meaning that it dwarfs all other platforms for gaming. AMD's target market isn't going away anytime soon.
It had become harder to justify upgrading your desktop's CPU every couple years recently, as the speed improvements had become more incremental, and keeping your old one for 5+ years became viable. Maybe with a core-count race though, that could change again.
Maybe AMD's resurgence could even be good for Intel, if it causes them to release higher core-count CPUs to the mass market, and developers respond by improving multithreading support in their applications and games.
Maleorderbride - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
For what it's worth, they have a lower debt to asset ratio than Intel.Yojimbo - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
"For what it's worth, they have a lower debt to asset ratio than Intel."Cash flow is what will determine if a company can pay down its debt. Intel has massive free cash flow. AMD does not, they've been more negative than positive in FCF the last few years.
If Intel or AMD needs to start cannibalizing their assets to pay for their debt they are in bad shape. Especially AMD. Intel has various non-core assets they could sell off and still keep their core business intact. I don't think AMD does. AMD already sold off their foundry business.
flgt - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
According to Communism’s Morningstar link AMD’s debt to asset ratio is 2X Intel’s. And their cost of borrowing is 3-5X Intels since they’re near junk status. $1.3B coming due in Dec.Zingam - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
Oh, no-o-o! AMD is ruining Intel again!alumine - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
Intel be like: hold my beerIGTrading - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
Intel is more like: hold my bribes and don't offer AMD based solutions.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osSMJRyxG0k
HStewart - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
Actually most people in this world - don't really care. I think most of one are die hard tech people and kids now of days. I am one of the die hard tech people that had the original IBM PC. My first computer that I actually purchase was a 25 Mhz 386 that cost around $1600 and at the time until I took it home did not even realize it at AMD clone CPU. long time dead I believe I gave it some one family member and it for sure not being used.Manch - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
They're doing better. That's great for competition, and us consumers. Yet some people are still negative. smhhaukionkannel - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
Thumbs up!Gothmoth - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
thats because some people are stupid morons....boozed - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
This is goodTristanSDX - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
AMD without losses ? they must be doing something wrong :)asdacap - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
Not good enough if you ask me. I don't see anything new from them, especially on the graphic side. "Good" is simply not enough if you are against both Nvidia and Intel at the same time.Spunjji - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
Actually it really is enough. These numbers literally prove that.Is it enough for you? No, probably not, given that you seem to think of the Zen architecture as "nothing new". Don't sit too long in that armchair, you'll get cramp.
bill.rookard - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
How about mobile APUs, desktop APUs, and Navi? The Ryzen/Vega based APU's have GPU performance equivalent to the GTX 1050s, and CPU performance equivalent to the Intel -U series. If they can get some good OEM designs they should move a lot of them.A5 - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
Ryzen/Vega APUs also don't exist in any product that you can actually purchase or will be able to purchase in the short-term.And equivalent performance to the U-series Intels with 2-3x the TDP isn't exactly a huge win.
Manch - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
So your opinion of equivalent performance to the U-series Intels with 2-3x the TDP not being exactly a huge win is based on the Ryzen/Vega APUs in products that you cannot actually purchase or will be able to purchase in the short-term?OK.....makes sense...
watzupken - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
I think it will be interesting to see how AMD's mobile APU will compare with the likes of Intel's 8xxx ULV series. It is still too early to confirm what is the actual power requirement for AMD's APU, but I have to say that Intel is pushing it when they released the 4c/8t ULV processor with just 15W. I strongly believe that if you stress both CPU and GPU simultaneously, performance will take a heavy hit because of the TDP cap. Which is why I feel that there are a lot of laptop with an Intel 8xxx ULV series paired with an MX150 GPU to alleviate the power shortage on the CPU, but will add an additional 25W to the power draw. Also, I feel AMD is likely going to go with their aggressive pricing to make up for any deficit.cwolf78 - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
You DO realize the TDP values include the GPU which is vastly more powerful on the AMD side, right? Also, it's worth pointing out that AMD's TDP figures are the absolute max value and Intel's are more of a "typical" value so they can make their products look more efficient than they really are.watzupken - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
Typically AMD don't do well in the laptop segment, so I think don't think they will be able to get a lot of design wins with their mobile APUs. Having said that, the APUs are great for sub notebooks which should not cost too much but still offer decent gaming performance with its integrated graphics.HStewart - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
What makes this hard for AMD, is the laptop/tablet market is where the industry is involving.With technology like Thunderbolt 3, you can have those powerful expensive external CPU's like GTX 1080 in SLI mode hook up dual Large 30in 4k Monitors with docking station and still have the portability of laptop.
The integrated GPU in laptop can handle most of what you need for portable needs and if needed you can hook it up to dock with external storage and such.
Once this technology gets to important where performance between desktop and mobile cpus is the same - the need for desktop goes completely away.
This is why AMD is destine to failed in long run.
sirmo - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
> Once this technology gets to important where performance between desktop and mobile cpus is the same - the need for desktop goes completely away.So the only company which has the tech to deliver competitive CPUs and GPUs (APUs in other words) in one package for mobile is the one destined to fail?
How is Nvidia going to compete with that?
HStewart - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
"How is Nvidia going to compete with that? "
Of course they do - there is need for dedicated GPU's in mobile side - and also in SLI on docking stations.
Do you really believe that all GPU's on mobile side are Integrated? I have multiple laptops with NVidia GPU
All I am saying for most customers ( mom and pops and even students ), the integrated GPU is all they will need. In fact a lot of this customers like my dad, really don't need a PC - maybe an iPad or Android will deal with them.
For me, I see the PC ( desktop ) is on it way out, but tablets ( including ARM based ) and laptop here to stay. I however do see much value in Windows based ARM device.
In my earlier days - desktops were only way to go - and NVidia was the best way go - Some people like ATI. I also found even building a desktop later on, it was nice to have Integrated GPU - just in case the card went bad - so at least I could recover the machine.
webdoctors - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
Finally they in the black! Hopefully this doesn't foreshadow the start of the next recession :PShould be even better once manufacturing ramps up assuming mining demand persists, and/or CPUs get cheaper.
yannigr2 - Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - link
"We’ll have to wait and see how the console market plays out here, but it seems like it could finally be slowing down after several years of solid sales."We probably see the results of Nintendo's Switch in the market.
vladx - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
"We probably see the results of Nintendo's Switch in the market."You do know Nintendo Switch uses no AMD parts, right?
AMD fanbois these days can't even read a spec sheet.
vladx - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
My bad, after re-reading your comment again I was wrong.yannigr2 - Friday, October 27, 2017 - link
Oh, my apologies then for my reaction. It was before reading your second post. It was in the next page and didn't notice.With Nintendo having sold more than 6 million Switch consoles, that definitely means a few millions less orders for AMD custom chips from Microsoft and Sony. We will probably see this when Nvidia releases it's financials next month.
yannigr2 - Friday, October 27, 2017 - link
It's really gold seeing someone full of arrogance rushing in to talk about fanboys only to post something that is at least humiliating.Maybe spec sheets are the only thing you can read and understand.
Switch NOT using AMD hardware WAS THE WHOLE POINT YOU MORON.
Manch - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
The 2DXXXL err Switch is doing great. That, combined with the pending release of the new XBOX, a decline is to be expected. I was going to spring for a XB1-S but decided to get Switch instead. I like many others can wait for the new XBOX as the S just doesn't offer enough tangible improvements to justify its existence.