It's export control related (US ITAR); but I suspect it's more about limiting their effectiveness as weapon sights not espionage that's responsible for the limit.
It could also be driven by the bolometer concept. Instead of counting photons, like a CMOS or CCD sensor does, you measure the temperature of the pixel after it has reached a thermal equilibrium with the scene that is imaged onto the sensor. Due to this differences, it is more difficult to make a bolometer fast (you need very small thermal mass, i.e. very thin and fragile pixel) than to make a photon-sensor fast.
You can find some explanation on this topic on the FLIR homepage as well:
My thought exactly. What good is it if the pictures are good looking but inaccurate? Does anyone believe a 16000 BTU Natural Gas Burner actually stays at a max of 150°C for any significant amount of time? Any chance of a comparison with images taken by the Seek and with measurements from a thermocouple?
I believe FLIR typically quotes +/-5ºC on their spec sheet. In my experience, it is better than this. Also, there is a cap on the maximum intensity read out on this camera which is apparently set to 150ºC. Similar FLIR microbolometers can go way higher than this without saturating, so this is just a software limitation.
Isn't the goal of reviews to independently test the manufacturers claims? Of course I can read spec sheets, but then why review it? There are plenty of example pictures available from FLIR's website already.
The review states that there is a cap of 400°C - that's way beyond the 150.3°C shown in this sample picture. Did Ganesh set the range to top out at 150.3°C (302.5°F) before taking that picture? That seems somehow unlikely. Or was the picture taken immediately after turning the burner on? But then, isn't the minimum temperature of 31°C reported for that entire frame kind of high? A serious review should include at least a few words about whether the results seem reasonable given the circumstances - otherwise, what's the point?
Unfortunately Anandtech's thermal imaging reviews aren't very useful. The key criteria when selecting a thermal imaging device for most applications is sensitivity - i.e. the minimum resolution of temperature it can distinguish, typically represented in terms of mK (millikelvin i.e. 1/1000 C). The previous Flir One was a little vague, the spec quotes 'as small as 0.1C' i.e. 100mK. Seek thermal state 100mK but only report in 1C increments - something which is difficult to interpret and may render their sensors useless for thermal imaging. A good thermal imaging camera will have a sensitivity of 70mK or less. Resolution is also useful, but you can compensate for poor resolution by moving closer, into the object, also some cameras compensate for poor resolution by clever image processing. I carry out thermal imaging surveys professionally, so have some idea about this subject.
That's a lot of hardware to add to the internals of a phone. I wouldn't count on anything close to the quality of a FLiR system in a cell phone anytime soon... if at all.
It doesn't have to be in a 2mm thick 'marmoset' phone. It can go into one a normal human male can carry. I'm still fine with the idea of a 10mm thick phone with a big battery even more so if it has actually useful features.
These things are pretty cool, and the reviews are fun to read too.
In future articles, maybe you could show us example shots that appeal to our inner geeks? Pictures of things that give us a reason to buy one, like shots showing how to detect IT equipment that needs dust cleaned out, or a VRM that needs a heatsink. Something we can justify the price with.
FLIR ONE Pro’s expanded temperature range means you can measure temperatures between -4°F and 752°F (-20° to 400°C). With up to three spot temperature meters and six temperature regions of interest, FLIR ONE Pro gives you added on-the-go image analysis and reporting capability."
So why do you say in the article that is can only track up to 150ºC?
Check out Seek's RevealPro. It's $600 but it has 320x240 with the visible spectrum camera and overlays. Plus it does fast motion capture. They make a cheaper unit for around $400 which features a 206x156 sensor with a dedicated lcd screen and flashlight. Seek's gonna eat FLIR's lunch when it comes to consumer/prosumer IR cameras
Yeah. Im sure FLIR is shaking in their boots about competitors much more expensive device that despite having higher res sensor produces noticeably worse images due to the lack of MSX like technology.
This is just toy for the kids. I am not sure why they using word *PRO*. Maybe you can use it for home inspection if your customer is not too picky. Useless for anything else. Oh of cuz you can check your steak temperature...
My brother is a mechanical engineer (he does installation, troubleshooting, etc of industrial plant gear) and uses the basic one just to get a feel for where heat is building up, and using that to help diagnose things like gearboxes lacking lubrication, wires carrying too much current, components that are overstressed etc - without ripping the equipment apart, risking electric shock or physical injury, etc.
You don't necessarily need to know the specific temperature at that point - just that something is hotter than it should be, or hotter than the surrounding area or it's complimentary components.
Wheel bearings or brake disks on the car are a more prosaic example; think you have a binding caliper? Drive the car for a couple of miles, pull over, check each disk with the 'cheapy' FLIR camera and you'll have a pretty good idea of whether it's a binding caliper or a wheel bearing, from where the heat is. He did that to diagnose a knackered driveshaft, rather than a knackered wheelbearing, without having to get the car up on stands and shake everything about.
So they do have uses beyond novelty, even at this 'basic' level.
Watch out linking to Sofradir's opinion on a-Si vs. VOx. This is (almost) like linking to an AMD review published on Intel's website :)
Almost every microbolometer vendor I know of uses one technology or the other (a-Si, VOx). They claim their choice is technically superior and all others are slightly worse.
Disappointed that the sample photos don't show tests on the seal around the refrigerator with the door closed, or around house entrance doors or windows. Or maybe a water heater to see if it's insulating jacket could use improvement somewhere. Or if it could be used to spot a water leak.
If a "ghost" decides to emit some IR, you should see something. Some years back, I knew a guy who worked full time in a cemetery for most of his life. He told me he'd seen lots of strange stuff but he wouldn't go into details. A few blocks from where I live now there is a big cemetery. However, they close it down every day at 8pm and nobody is allowed in after except security. I'd love to take a camera like this in there.
How long until this technology is blamed for something perpetrated illegally? More than one politician has tried to outlaw night vision devices. As this becomes ubiquitous, useful, and helpful, the potential for abuse rises.
It is just a matter of time until a politician attempts to ride this issue for votes.
Other question for those knowledgeable with the technology: The review mentions that longevity of the microbolometer is a sensitive point, but no specifics are given. Any idea of how performance of these degrades over time? Should I expect failure of individual pixels at some point or rather loss in accuracy? After how much time? Would this happen homogeneously over the entire array or would individual pixels age differently?
These types of thermal cameras can be used to steal pin numbers from keypads. If the person behind you in a checkout line simply snaps a thermal image of the pin keypad, before touching it themselves, they can examine the picture to see the residual heat left behind by your fingers. - I suggest that next time you do a review of mobile thermal camera hardware you warn readers about this potential security vulnerability. An easy solution is to simply touch all the buttons gently after putting in your pin, thereby obfuscating the thermal signature of your pin.
Hello. I do micro electronic repeiring, mainly mobiles. can I use this to check a mobile pcb at IC level ? what is the minimum distance I can focus it?
In additiona, is there any way to use it directly connected to a pc vis usb?
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nathanddrews - Tuesday, June 6, 2017 - link
That's really cool, glad to see prices getting cheaper and the tech getting better!Want to educate me on why they are generally limited to 9fps? Are they considered regulated spy equipment if they go faster than that?
DanNeely - Tuesday, June 6, 2017 - link
It's export control related (US ITAR); but I suspect it's more about limiting their effectiveness as weapon sights not espionage that's responsible for the limit.http://www.flir.se/cvs/cores/knowledgebase/index.c...
ddriver - Tuesday, June 6, 2017 - link
Yeah, it is like GPS, if it is for consumers, it has got to suck. Otherwise someone might use to to bring down murrica.Samus - Wednesday, June 7, 2017 - link
That's awesome these are finally affordable. Super useful for hobbyists. Especially radio control and automotive.ShieTar - Thursday, June 8, 2017 - link
It could also be driven by the bolometer concept. Instead of counting photons, like a CMOS or CCD sensor does, you measure the temperature of the pixel after it has reached a thermal equilibrium with the scene that is imaged onto the sensor. Due to this differences, it is more difficult to make a bolometer fast (you need very small thermal mass, i.e. very thin and fragile pixel) than to make a photon-sensor fast.You can find some explanation on this topic on the FLIR homepage as well:
http://www.flir.de/science/blog/details/?ID=74352
Threska - Tuesday, June 6, 2017 - link
The most obvious disadvantage is having an expensive piece of kit hanging off a flimsy USB port.skavi - Tuesday, June 6, 2017 - link
USB C ports are actually generally quite solid.SharpHawk - Tuesday, June 6, 2017 - link
So how accurate is it?JanW1 - Tuesday, June 6, 2017 - link
My thought exactly. What good is it if the pictures are good looking but inaccurate? Does anyone believe a 16000 BTU Natural Gas Burner actually stays at a max of 150°C for any significant amount of time? Any chance of a comparison with images taken by the Seek and with measurements from a thermocouple?peevee - Thursday, September 14, 2017 - link
150°C is the upper limit of the device itself.RandomUsername3245 - Tuesday, June 6, 2017 - link
I believe FLIR typically quotes +/-5ºC on their spec sheet. In my experience, it is better than this. Also, there is a cap on the maximum intensity read out on this camera which is apparently set to 150ºC. Similar FLIR microbolometers can go way higher than this without saturating, so this is just a software limitation.JanW1 - Wednesday, June 7, 2017 - link
Sorry, my June 7 comment was meant to go here, not above...JanW1 - Wednesday, June 7, 2017 - link
Oh, so now it went back below to where it was supposed to be - edit function, maybe?JanW1 - Wednesday, June 7, 2017 - link
Isn't the goal of reviews to independently test the manufacturers claims? Of course I can read spec sheets, but then why review it? There are plenty of example pictures available from FLIR's website already.The review states that there is a cap of 400°C - that's way beyond the 150.3°C shown in this sample picture. Did Ganesh set the range to top out at 150.3°C (302.5°F) before taking that picture? That seems somehow unlikely. Or was the picture taken immediately after turning the burner on? But then, isn't the minimum temperature of 31°C reported for that entire frame kind of high? A serious review should include at least a few words about whether the results seem reasonable given the circumstances - otherwise, what's the point?
ThermalImager - Wednesday, June 7, 2017 - link
Unfortunately Anandtech's thermal imaging reviews aren't very useful. The key criteria when selecting a thermal imaging device for most applications is sensitivity - i.e. the minimum resolution of temperature it can distinguish, typically represented in terms of mK (millikelvin i.e. 1/1000 C). The previous Flir One was a little vague, the spec quotes 'as small as 0.1C' i.e. 100mK. Seek thermal state 100mK but only report in 1C increments - something which is difficult to interpret and may render their sensors useless for thermal imaging. A good thermal imaging camera will have a sensitivity of 70mK or less.Resolution is also useful, but you can compensate for poor resolution by moving closer, into the object, also some cameras compensate for poor resolution by clever image processing.
I carry out thermal imaging surveys professionally, so have some idea about this subject.
jabber - Tuesday, June 6, 2017 - link
So when are going to get a phone with this built it? Two years?wolfemane - Tuesday, June 6, 2017 - link
That's a lot of hardware to add to the internals of a phone. I wouldn't count on anything close to the quality of a FLiR system in a cell phone anytime soon... if at all.jabber - Tuesday, June 6, 2017 - link
It doesn't have to be in a 2mm thick 'marmoset' phone. It can go into one a normal human male can carry. I'm still fine with the idea of a 10mm thick phone with a big battery even more so if it has actually useful features.Mr Perfect - Tuesday, June 6, 2017 - link
The Cat S60 linked to on the first page of the article is just what you're looking for.Mr Perfect - Tuesday, June 6, 2017 - link
These things are pretty cool, and the reviews are fun to read too.In future articles, maybe you could show us example shots that appeal to our inner geeks? Pictures of things that give us a reason to buy one, like shots showing how to detect IT equipment that needs dust cleaned out, or a VRM that needs a heatsink. Something we can justify the price with.
Nottheface - Tuesday, June 6, 2017 - link
From http://www.flir.com/flirone/store/?id=81769:"Expanded Measurement
FLIR ONE Pro’s expanded temperature range means you can measure temperatures between -4°F and 752°F (-20° to 400°C). With up to three spot temperature meters and six temperature regions of interest, FLIR ONE Pro gives you added on-the-go image analysis and reporting capability."
So why do you say in the article that is can only track up to 150ºC?
ganeshts - Tuesday, June 6, 2017 - link
I mention the rated specs in the piece. The 150C is what we tested. Doesn't mean the Pro can't 'see' above thatMorawka - Tuesday, June 6, 2017 - link
Check out Seek's RevealPro. It's $600 but it has 320x240 with the visible spectrum camera and overlays. Plus it does fast motion capture. They make a cheaper unit for around $400 which features a 206x156 sensor with a dedicated lcd screen and flashlight. Seek's gonna eat FLIR's lunch when it comes to consumer/prosumer IR camerasR7 - Friday, June 9, 2017 - link
Yeah. Im sure FLIR is shaking in their boots about competitors much more expensive device that despite having higher res sensor produces noticeably worse images due to the lack of MSX like technology.fobosca - Tuesday, June 6, 2017 - link
This is just toy for the kids. I am not sure why they using word *PRO*. Maybe you can use it for home inspection if your customer is not too picky. Useless for anything else. Oh of cuz you can check your steak temperature...Beany2013 - Thursday, June 8, 2017 - link
My brother is a mechanical engineer (he does installation, troubleshooting, etc of industrial plant gear) and uses the basic one just to get a feel for where heat is building up, and using that to help diagnose things like gearboxes lacking lubrication, wires carrying too much current, components that are overstressed etc - without ripping the equipment apart, risking electric shock or physical injury, etc.You don't necessarily need to know the specific temperature at that point - just that something is hotter than it should be, or hotter than the surrounding area or it's complimentary components.
Wheel bearings or brake disks on the car are a more prosaic example; think you have a binding caliper? Drive the car for a couple of miles, pull over, check each disk with the 'cheapy' FLIR camera and you'll have a pretty good idea of whether it's a binding caliper or a wheel bearing, from where the heat is. He did that to diagnose a knackered driveshaft, rather than a knackered wheelbearing, without having to get the car up on stands and shake everything about.
So they do have uses beyond novelty, even at this 'basic' level.
RandomUsername3245 - Tuesday, June 6, 2017 - link
Watch out linking to Sofradir's opinion on a-Si vs. VOx. This is (almost) like linking to an AMD review published on Intel's website :)Almost every microbolometer vendor I know of uses one technology or the other (a-Si, VOx). They claim their choice is technically superior and all others are slightly worse.
KidneyBean - Wednesday, June 7, 2017 - link
Disappointed that the sample photos don't show tests on the seal around the refrigerator with the door closed, or around house entrance doors or windows. Or maybe a water heater to see if it's insulating jacket could use improvement somewhere. Or if it could be used to spot a water leak.scmorange16 - Wednesday, June 7, 2017 - link
Can this be used to detect Paranormal activity?JanW1 - Wednesday, June 7, 2017 - link
Like natural gas burners magically staying at a cool 150°C?anonym - Wednesday, June 7, 2017 - link
Only surface thin layer get high temperature and don't block infrare from insidecocochanel - Wednesday, June 7, 2017 - link
If a "ghost" decides to emit some IR, you should see something.Some years back, I knew a guy who worked full time in a cemetery for most of his life. He told me he'd seen lots of strange stuff but he wouldn't go into details.
A few blocks from where I live now there is a big cemetery. However, they close it down every day at 8pm and nobody is allowed in after except security. I'd love to take a camera like this in there.
Sivar - Wednesday, June 7, 2017 - link
FLIR sensors are manufactured in the United States, about 90 ft from where I am sitting now. :)edcoolio - Wednesday, June 7, 2017 - link
My question is:How long until this technology is blamed for something perpetrated illegally? More than one politician has tried to outlaw night vision devices. As this becomes ubiquitous, useful, and helpful, the potential for abuse rises.
It is just a matter of time until a politician attempts to ride this issue for votes.
JanW1 - Thursday, June 8, 2017 - link
Other question for those knowledgeable with the technology:The review mentions that longevity of the microbolometer is a sensitive point, but no specifics are given. Any idea of how performance of these degrades over time? Should I expect failure of individual pixels at some point or rather loss in accuracy? After how much time? Would this happen homogeneously over the entire array or would individual pixels age differently?
Romulous - Thursday, June 8, 2017 - link
I hate this idea. Privacy will go out the window. Ban this now.croc - Monday, June 12, 2017 - link
For those trying to insulate their house, this should be the first tool in the kit.SharpEars - Tuesday, June 13, 2017 - link
More 160x120 resolution garbagefEsTiDiOuS - Saturday, June 17, 2017 - link
These types of thermal cameras can be used to steal pin numbers from keypads. If the person behind you in a checkout line simply snaps a thermal image of the pin keypad, before touching it themselves, they can examine the picture to see the residual heat left behind by your fingers. - I suggest that next time you do a review of mobile thermal camera hardware you warn readers about this potential security vulnerability. An easy solution is to simply touch all the buttons gently after putting in your pin, thereby obfuscating the thermal signature of your pin.excessive4ce - Thursday, February 1, 2018 - link
Hello.I do micro electronic repeiring, mainly mobiles. can I use this to check a mobile pcb at IC level ?
what is the minimum distance I can focus it?
In additiona, is there any way to use it directly connected to a pc vis usb?
Thanks,
Paolo