Ha , guess that answers my questions about micron 3D NAND and XPoint products. So the person mentioning rumours of 3dNand and 3d Xpoint products of micron today was right :).
My dreams of mainstream U.2 or NVMe adoption has to wait a bit longer i guess. Not a fan of some M.2 connectors squashed under graphics cards or a big expansion slot card. Still wondering if we will see more high-end geeky enthusiastic U.2 offerings one day.But a bit silly of me to think that , micron is mainstream/data-centres. Weird that we have PSU/Memory/CPU/motherboard/case/keyboard/mice/screen/.. enthusiastic brands but when it comes to storage it is OEM/consumer/DATA-centre , dull,boring,no risk but I do love those words when it comes to my storage :)!
The hardest part of my new Skylake build was finding a motherboard with the features I needed and an M.2 connector ABOVE the top PCI-E slot. While also being affordable/cheap. I use a 980ti with an open air cooler and didn't want all that heat blowing strait on the M.2 drive.
I had the same concern. There are a couple of Z170 boards that don't put the m.2 slot right between the video card and the processor. The one i chose has 2 m.2 slots, and the one i plan to fill with my 950 pro lies outboard from where the 980 ti will sit; this mobo is the Gigabyte z170x-gaming 7.
Kind of disappointed that the MX300 is going to switch over to TLC NAND, even if it is 3D. Was hoping the BX line would get the TLC and the MX would get MLC 3D NAND, similar to the Samsung 850 Pro and EVO.
Hopefully the performance of the Micron 3D TLC NAND with have sufficient performance/durability that the MX300 will be a drive worth purchasing, but after the BX200 fiasco, I take nothing for granted.
IIRC, going 3D only improves durability. The performance stays about the same, because you still have to deal with several voltage levels. Then again, for typical home usage, I don't think 850 Pro is worth the price premium over a similar EVO drive. 850 Pro/950 Pro are options for whoever needs peak (sequential) performance, but I expect the vast majority of users is served very well by the EVO line.
Moving to smaller lithographies generally slows the NAND too. I can't seem to find the article which shows the different read/program/erase times across different lithographies but I'll try to find it later.
Going to 3D in and of itself shouldn't have any effect on speed/durability, just density. This then allows them to move back up the scale from 1x nm to something in the 30-40 nm range. The larger lithography then reverses the read/program/erase slowing from moving to smaller lithographies and boosts endurance.
You're right though, TLC will remain inherently slower than MLC at similar manufacturing processes. I don't have the chart in front of me, but it is conceivable that at least for some operations ~40nm TLC might outperform 15/16nm MLC.
Yay to oddball capacities. 180 and 360gb for the price of current 120 and 240gb?
I've always had a place in my heard for the Intel X25/SSD320's because of their weird sizes (160/300/600GB) because especially the 160GB version gave that extra few GB of space in office PC's where 120GB was pushing it after a bunch of apps, user profiles, temp files and hundreds of updates. Having to run a cleanmgr sage set in the monthly maintenance schedule wasn't necessary for the 160GB machines like it was for the 120GB machines.
Nitpicking: it's durability, not reliability. A TLC drive (without special errors) is not going to fail any more suddenly than an equivalent MLC drive. It's just going to wear out faster.
+1 for some love towards the 180GB Intel SSDs. I've deployed PCs with this capacity and find it to be a sweet spot for a boot SSD. It provides enough capacity for the OS, applications, and growth for the future. This is something I find 120/128GB SSDs harder pressed to accomplish.
I welcome oddball capacities but not this move to TLC NAND. I currently own a MX100 512GB and would love to replace this is a year's time for a 1TB drive but scarifying performance or durability will not happen.
Ohh Micron-Micron. What are u doing? Still continuing with the oddball naming schemes ei see. Your product stack is a mess. MX series has always been MLC. Now it's suddenly TLC? I wont even mention BX100 > BX200 downgrade. What's next? 3D MLC based BX300?
I've been waiting for the 2016 update to the micron/crucial products. Wow I am disappointed. I simply refuse to use tlc nand. It's a shoddy way of increasing storage capacity while decreasing endurance and has lower performance compared to the same architecture running in mlc. I really hope they release an mlc product. They're one of the few affordable mlc product lines.
Samsung charges outrageous prices for their mlc "Pro" line of products. I got burned on my 840evo. Read some reports of the latest firmware destroying 850 Pro's too. Yeah. No Samsung for me anymore.
Just to be clear, that Samsung 850 Pro firmware bug was apparently a corner case which only affected some Linux kernels in 2015 which were most likely fixed shortly afterwards. So nothing to worry about now.
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plopke - Tuesday, April 12, 2016 - link
Ha , guess that answers my questions about micron 3D NAND and XPoint products. So the person mentioning rumours of 3dNand and 3d Xpoint products of micron today was right :).My dreams of mainstream U.2 or NVMe adoption has to wait a bit longer i guess. Not a fan of some M.2 connectors squashed under graphics cards or a big expansion slot card. Still wondering if we will see more high-end geeky enthusiastic U.2 offerings one day.But a bit silly of me to think that , micron is mainstream/data-centres. Weird that we have PSU/Memory/CPU/motherboard/case/keyboard/mice/screen/.. enthusiastic brands but when it comes to storage it is OEM/consumer/DATA-centre , dull,boring,no risk but I do love those words when it comes to my storage :)!
On the other hand my dream of big SSD's .....!
plopke - Tuesday, April 12, 2016 - link
then again you only really can diversify with firmware unless making own controller.G0053 - Wednesday, April 13, 2016 - link
The hardest part of my new Skylake build was finding a motherboard with the features I needed and an M.2 connector ABOVE the top PCI-E slot. While also being affordable/cheap. I use a 980ti with an open air cooler and didn't want all that heat blowing strait on the M.2 drive.plopke - Wednesday, April 13, 2016 - link
Which one did you get in the end if I may ask? I might need myself a new one soon.zmatt00 - Thursday, April 14, 2016 - link
I had the same concern. There are a couple of Z170 boards that don't put the m.2 slot right between the video card and the processor. The one i chose has 2 m.2 slots, and the one i plan to fill with my 950 pro lies outboard from where the 980 ti will sit; this mobo is the Gigabyte z170x-gaming 7.mac_savant - Wednesday, April 13, 2016 - link
Kind of disappointed that the MX300 is going to switch over to TLC NAND, even if it is 3D. Was hoping the BX line would get the TLC and the MX would get MLC 3D NAND, similar to the Samsung 850 Pro and EVO.Hopefully the performance of the Micron 3D TLC NAND with have sufficient performance/durability that the MX300 will be a drive worth purchasing, but after the BX200 fiasco, I take nothing for granted.
bug77 - Wednesday, April 13, 2016 - link
IIRC, going 3D only improves durability. The performance stays about the same, because you still have to deal with several voltage levels.Then again, for typical home usage, I don't think 850 Pro is worth the price premium over a similar EVO drive. 850 Pro/950 Pro are options for whoever needs peak (sequential) performance, but I expect the vast majority of users is served very well by the EVO line.
MrCommunistGen - Wednesday, April 13, 2016 - link
Moving to smaller lithographies generally slows the NAND too. I can't seem to find the article which shows the different read/program/erase times across different lithographies but I'll try to find it later.Going to 3D in and of itself shouldn't have any effect on speed/durability, just density. This then allows them to move back up the scale from 1x nm to something in the 30-40 nm range. The larger lithography then reverses the read/program/erase slowing from moving to smaller lithographies and boosts endurance.
You're right though, TLC will remain inherently slower than MLC at similar manufacturing processes. I don't have the chart in front of me, but it is conceivable that at least for some operations ~40nm TLC might outperform 15/16nm MLC.
extide - Wednesday, April 13, 2016 - link
I would assume they will come out with a 3D MLC drive as well, possibly a bit later.Samus - Wednesday, April 13, 2016 - link
Yay to oddball capacities. 180 and 360gb for the price of current 120 and 240gb?I've always had a place in my heard for the Intel X25/SSD320's because of their weird sizes (160/300/600GB) because especially the 160GB version gave that extra few GB of space in office PC's where 120GB was pushing it after a bunch of apps, user profiles, temp files and hundreds of updates. Having to run a cleanmgr sage set in the monthly maintenance schedule wasn't necessary for the 160GB machines like it was for the 120GB machines.
Arnulf - Wednesday, April 13, 2016 - link
Well those would be perfectly normal 32 GB MLC dies if configured as such. They'd lose 33% of capacity but gain 50+% in reliability.MrSpadge - Wednesday, April 13, 2016 - link
Nitpicking: it's durability, not reliability. A TLC drive (without special errors) is not going to fail any more suddenly than an equivalent MLC drive. It's just going to wear out faster.Murloc - Wednesday, April 13, 2016 - link
that's not really nitpicking, it's a fundamental difference.creed3020 - Thursday, April 14, 2016 - link
+1 for some love towards the 180GB Intel SSDs. I've deployed PCs with this capacity and find it to be a sweet spot for a boot SSD. It provides enough capacity for the OS, applications, and growth for the future. This is something I find 120/128GB SSDs harder pressed to accomplish.I welcome oddball capacities but not this move to TLC NAND. I currently own a MX100 512GB and would love to replace this is a year's time for a 1TB drive but scarifying performance or durability will not happen.
R7 - Wednesday, April 13, 2016 - link
Ohh Micron-Micron. What are u doing? Still continuing with the oddball naming schemes ei see. Your product stack is a mess. MX series has always been MLC. Now it's suddenly TLC? I wont even mention BX100 > BX200 downgrade. What's next? 3D MLC based BX300?hojnikb - Thursday, April 14, 2016 - link
maybe they will introduce 4bit per cell BX300, which will sux even more :)Ej24 - Wednesday, April 13, 2016 - link
I've been waiting for the 2016 update to the micron/crucial products. Wow I am disappointed. I simply refuse to use tlc nand. It's a shoddy way of increasing storage capacity while decreasing endurance and has lower performance compared to the same architecture running in mlc. I really hope they release an mlc product. They're one of the few affordable mlc product lines.Samsung charges outrageous prices for their mlc "Pro" line of products. I got burned on my 840evo. Read some reports of the latest firmware destroying 850 Pro's too. Yeah. No Samsung for me anymore.
I'm hoping crucial doesn't go all tlc!
thesmith - Sunday, April 17, 2016 - link
http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/major-trim...thesmith - Sunday, April 17, 2016 - link
Just to be clear, that Samsung 850 Pro firmware bug was apparently a corner case which only affected some Linux kernels in 2015 which were most likely fixed shortly afterwards. So nothing to worry about now.