This is what Intel NUC should've been. 450 grams, sleek look, magnetic snap-on interface for compatible docking station, e-GPU, portable and fixed displays.
Thunderbolt eGPU's and stuff are already niche enough, and being invested in that ecosystem, the proprietary connector is a deal breaker for me. I fully lost interest when I saw the RAM was soldered. It's a shame they went proprietary, cuz this looks neat.
Seriously, and there aren't really any options out there for high speed low profile memory. I'd take soldered LPDDR5 over any regular DDR4\5 socket, just make sure you get 16GB-32GB depending on your future use case. Nobody is going to keep running this thing 10 years from now when 32GB won't suffice.
Meanwhile most PC's ship with 16GB and I still see 8GB in laptops, which has been pretty standard for...10 years.
This was absolutely sent to Future for the free advertising that an article about it would generate AND it's a pretty stupid idea since, well laptop and desktop workstations both exist and offer either more flexibility and the same relative compute power (typically with a larger company's backing) OR more compute power for the same cost. The gimmicky form factor is only a gimmick and nothing more.
'Product sent for free advertising' - The way PR works is that the agency is tasked with promoting product awareness. 'Advertising' - at least in the TV / Internet age - refers to something that focuses purely on the positives of a product and pushes viewers / readers to go out and purchase the product. It is always a good idea to approach any article or review with wariness, but it looks like you want to see malice where there is none.
PR agencies and reps pitch countless products for review, and we don't have enough resources or man-hours to justify an AnandTech-level review for each of those pitched products. Personally, I take up a product for review only if it offers something new or novel. There is absolutely no doubt that the Mind Family of products is something that has not been attempted successfully before. It may appear gimmicky, but the engineering effort towards creating a 256 Gbps external peripheral interface is definitely not something to be viewed with derision (which is what your post comes across as).
Every time a company tries to create something new with focus on multiple product categories - 'a jack of all trades', there is always going to be a 'master of one' competitor. The question is whether the new product can evolve over multiple generations to re-frame the paradigm. (I would take the example of an iPod that appeared when there were other MP3 players in the market too. In fact, other than branding and industrial design, it wasn't offering too much novelty. But, that slowly metamorphosed into the iPhone juggernaut over a 15 - 20 year timeframe).
The reason I am typing out this lengthy response is not because I have a vested interest in promoting the Mind family. In fact, you can see we do not even carry a link to the crowdfunding site where Khadas is currently selling the system before moving it to the Khadas shop / Amazon. Rather, I want to make sure readers are able to see the big picture as well as detailed specifics on where Khadas should be improving. I would say that in the last 5 - 7 years, this mini-PC is probably the one that I have spent the most time in reviewing - just because it is very different from what is usually put out in this space. And, I would love readers to understand that.
Coming back to the 'advertising' claims - did you even read the concluding section? Khadas actually links to various reviews from their crowfunding campaign. I suspect it is unlikely they are going to link to our review. We have always aimed to present a balanced view of products and its capabilities. As it stands today, Khadas still has much to prove. That said, there is plenty of potential and the Mind Link interface is certainly praiseworthy for its capabilities (it is better than external OCuLink and Thunderbolt 5 from a technical viewpoint).
The GPU should be available in June 2024. There is no ETA yet for the other peripherals.
As for review, it depends on Khadas. If they offer, I will definitely take it up [ as we do have a concrete idea of how eGPU enclosures need to be evaluated - https://www.anandtech.com/show/13944 ]
Probably not worth considering the i7-1360P. It is (in real world performance) virtually identical to the i5-1340P.
I have two notebooks with an i5-1240P and i7-1260P respectively and you literally would never be able to tell them apart in any task. The only difference as far as I can tell is slightly higher base and boost clock, and the i7 has more L3 cache that doesn't seem to mean anything in most applications. The GPU core has an additional core (so 96 EU's over 80 EU's in the i5.) They are otherwise identical CPU's with the same P and E cores.
I’d say it’s mostly for commuters, who’ll oscillate between two or more workplaces with high frequency and regularity, but don’t want to carry more than the “soul” of the computer with them.
When I do that, I tend to make that a VM I keep on a high-speed USB stick and I then suspend the VM when I commute. Get’s the job done with a bit of overhead but in a smaller form factor but it means having a physical computer at every workplace and other compromises.
Having a full-sized GPU dock on every location might be somewhat difficult in terms of budget, but a power primary and somewhat after-hours secondary, might be enough to satisfy a large part of the user base.
Being able to just pick up the running machine right in the middle of something and then try catching a train or plane running might seem attractive, but Windows tends to glitch in far too many ways to make that realistic.
I’ve had far too many Windows laptops being woken up from some powersave or even hibernation slumber in the middle of a flight, ostensibly for scheduled maintenance, only to then have them cook themselves and their battery to death for lack of cooling in the onboard luggage: I guess I should be glad they didn’t go as far as combusting, but generally I wound up without a working machine on the busy end of the trip…
If you own a tiny home, operate in a boat, trailer or some other space constrained place this could be cool, but with an eye on longevity I’d not risk anything that wasn’t standards based and if TB isn’t enough, including dGPU, it’s really just tough luck.
BTW, I do believe they offer TB and not just USB4, they just don’t have the certification done, because they do mention eGPU on their website.
Pre-configured only: 32GB is certainly better than 16, even if I’d go for 64, especially at current prices for DRAM. The M.2 slots are only 30mm length so there wasn’t that much variety in terms of updates anyway, but that is currently changing because of these Steam console class devices. I guess the reason they won’t let you open the device is mostly to cut down on customer service issues, because there is just too many people out there who overestimate their technical skills and dexterity.
I guess mostly it just inspired me into looking using a NUC for this commute style use case instead. They aren’t really that much bigger than this, especially if you don’t carry a power brick. Having to make sure they are properly hibernated, isn’t that much of an issue and they are far more economical.
PC/104 is meant for internal only. It has exposed and unsupported pins, which makes it easy to bend the pins. It's fragile. This slot connector is a more robust design.
Having said that, oculink and TB4 are plenty robust and have an existing market.
You do know that PC/104 has updated to PCIe/104 and uses PCIe connectors that are plenty strong. Version 3 of the spec has been ratified since Feb 17, 2015.
Also it would be pretty easy for them to figure out how to create a base board to stack modules onto given the modular nature.
They could've used a EPIC or EBC MoBo base board and stack modules on top.
One main difference between this and other NUC's is the LPDDR5. This could have been a show stopper if they broke the 64GB barrier. Would consider a 128GB LPDDR5 memory version. Otherwise not much to see here.
Polite reminder that "industrial design" means designing a product to be mass produced, not edgelord brushed titanium designed to convinced suckers a product is worth twice its equivalent value
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wr3zzz - Thursday, September 14, 2023 - link
This is what Intel NUC should've been. 450 grams, sleek look, magnetic snap-on interface for compatible docking station, e-GPU, portable and fixed displays.hubick - Thursday, September 14, 2023 - link
Thunderbolt eGPU's and stuff are already niche enough, and being invested in that ecosystem, the proprietary connector is a deal breaker for me. I fully lost interest when I saw the RAM was soldered. It's a shame they went proprietary, cuz this looks neat.meacupla - Thursday, September 14, 2023 - link
It has 32GB of LPDDR5 5200. How much more do you want?Samus - Friday, September 15, 2023 - link
Seriously, and there aren't really any options out there for high speed low profile memory. I'd take soldered LPDDR5 over any regular DDR4\5 socket, just make sure you get 16GB-32GB depending on your future use case. Nobody is going to keep running this thing 10 years from now when 32GB won't suffice.Meanwhile most PC's ship with 16GB and I still see 8GB in laptops, which has been pretty standard for...10 years.
PeachNCream - Thursday, September 14, 2023 - link
This was absolutely sent to Future for the free advertising that an article about it would generate AND it's a pretty stupid idea since, well laptop and desktop workstations both exist and offer either more flexibility and the same relative compute power (typically with a larger company's backing) OR more compute power for the same cost. The gimmicky form factor is only a gimmick and nothing more.ganeshts - Thursday, September 14, 2023 - link
'Product sent for free advertising' - The way PR works is that the agency is tasked with promoting product awareness. 'Advertising' - at least in the TV / Internet age - refers to something that focuses purely on the positives of a product and pushes viewers / readers to go out and purchase the product. It is always a good idea to approach any article or review with wariness, but it looks like you want to see malice where there is none.PR agencies and reps pitch countless products for review, and we don't have enough resources or man-hours to justify an AnandTech-level review for each of those pitched products. Personally, I take up a product for review only if it offers something new or novel. There is absolutely no doubt that the Mind Family of products is something that has not been attempted successfully before. It may appear gimmicky, but the engineering effort towards creating a 256 Gbps external peripheral interface is definitely not something to be viewed with derision (which is what your post comes across as).
Every time a company tries to create something new with focus on multiple product categories - 'a jack of all trades', there is always going to be a 'master of one' competitor. The question is whether the new product can evolve over multiple generations to re-frame the paradigm. (I would take the example of an iPod that appeared when there were other MP3 players in the market too. In fact, other than branding and industrial design, it wasn't offering too much novelty. But, that slowly metamorphosed into the iPhone juggernaut over a 15 - 20 year timeframe).
The reason I am typing out this lengthy response is not because I have a vested interest in promoting the Mind family. In fact, you can see we do not even carry a link to the crowdfunding site where Khadas is currently selling the system before moving it to the Khadas shop / Amazon. Rather, I want to make sure readers are able to see the big picture as well as detailed specifics on where Khadas should be improving. I would say that in the last 5 - 7 years, this mini-PC is probably the one that I have spent the most time in reviewing - just because it is very different from what is usually put out in this space. And, I would love readers to understand that.
Coming back to the 'advertising' claims - did you even read the concluding section? Khadas actually links to various reviews from their crowfunding campaign. I suspect it is unlikely they are going to link to our review. We have always aimed to present a balanced view of products and its capabilities. As it stands today, Khadas still has much to prove. That said, there is plenty of potential and the Mind Link interface is certainly praiseworthy for its capabilities (it is better than external OCuLink and Thunderbolt 5 from a technical viewpoint).
meacupla - Thursday, September 14, 2023 - link
When do you expect to see the GPU and monitor docks become available?When they do, are you going to review those?
ganeshts - Friday, September 15, 2023 - link
The GPU should be available in June 2024. There is no ETA yet for the other peripherals.As for review, it depends on Khadas. If they offer, I will definitely take it up [ as we do have a concrete idea of how eGPU enclosures need to be evaluated - https://www.anandtech.com/show/13944 ]
meacupla - Friday, September 15, 2023 - link
oof, that is a rough launch window for the GPU dock. They should have stuck to an already established connector, like occulink.Samus - Friday, September 15, 2023 - link
Probably not worth considering the i7-1360P. It is (in real world performance) virtually identical to the i5-1340P.I have two notebooks with an i5-1240P and i7-1260P respectively and you literally would never be able to tell them apart in any task. The only difference as far as I can tell is slightly higher base and boost clock, and the i7 has more L3 cache that doesn't seem to mean anything in most applications. The GPU core has an additional core (so 96 EU's over 80 EU's in the i5.) They are otherwise identical CPU's with the same P and E cores.
peterfares - Friday, September 15, 2023 - link
This is really cool, but who is this for?abufrejoval - Friday, September 15, 2023 - link
I’d say it’s mostly for commuters, who’ll oscillate between two or more workplaces with high frequency and regularity, but don’t want to carry more than the “soul” of the computer with them.When I do that, I tend to make that a VM I keep on a high-speed USB stick and I then suspend the VM when I commute. Get’s the job done with a bit of overhead but in a smaller form factor but it means having a physical computer at every workplace and other compromises.
Having a full-sized GPU dock on every location might be somewhat difficult in terms of budget, but a power primary and somewhat after-hours secondary, might be enough to satisfy a large part of the user base.
Being able to just pick up the running machine right in the middle of something and then try catching a train or plane running might seem attractive, but Windows tends to glitch in far too many ways to make that realistic.
I’ve had far too many Windows laptops being woken up from some powersave or even hibernation slumber in the middle of a flight, ostensibly for scheduled maintenance, only to then have them cook themselves and their battery to death for lack of cooling in the onboard luggage: I guess I should be glad they didn’t go as far as combusting, but generally I wound up without a working machine on the busy end of the trip…
If you own a tiny home, operate in a boat, trailer or some other space constrained place this could be cool, but with an eye on longevity I’d not risk anything that wasn’t standards based and if TB isn’t enough, including dGPU, it’s really just tough luck.
BTW, I do believe they offer TB and not just USB4, they just don’t have the certification done, because they do mention eGPU on their website.
Pre-configured only: 32GB is certainly better than 16, even if I’d go for 64, especially at current prices for DRAM. The M.2 slots are only 30mm length so there wasn’t that much variety in terms of updates anyway, but that is currently changing because of these Steam console class devices. I guess the reason they won’t let you open the device is mostly to cut down on customer service issues, because there is just too many people out there who overestimate their technical skills and dexterity.
I guess mostly it just inspired me into looking using a NUC for this commute style use case instead. They aren’t really that much bigger than this, especially if you don’t carry a power brick. Having to make sure they are properly hibernated, isn’t that much of an issue and they are far more economical.
brucethemoose - Friday, September 15, 2023 - link
> 64-48-48-112 @ 5200Whoa, is this a typo?
The timings seem awfully loose, like waay above default JEDEC.
meacupla - Friday, September 15, 2023 - link
I can't even find what JEDEC specifies for LPDDR5Timings for LPDDR have always been looser than their regular counterparts.
They clock higher at lower voltages, and the timings are loose as a result.
Kamen Rider Blade - Friday, September 15, 2023 - link
So, instead of creating a "Proprietary Standard"?Why don't they use the existing PC/104 stacking Board standard that has been around for decades?
meacupla - Saturday, September 16, 2023 - link
PC/104 is meant for internal only. It has exposed and unsupported pins, which makes it easy to bend the pins. It's fragile.This slot connector is a more robust design.
Having said that, oculink and TB4 are plenty robust and have an existing market.
Kamen Rider Blade - Saturday, September 16, 2023 - link
You do know that PC/104 has updated to PCIe/104 and uses PCIe connectors that are plenty strong. Version 3 of the spec has been ratified since Feb 17, 2015.Also it would be pretty easy for them to figure out how to create a base board to stack modules onto given the modular nature.
They could've used a EPIC or EBC MoBo base board and stack modules on top.
meacupla - Saturday, September 16, 2023 - link
not my fault you named the wrong spec[email protected] - Sunday, September 17, 2023 - link
One main difference between this and other NUC's is the LPDDR5. This could have been a show stopper if they broke the 64GB barrier. Would consider a 128GB LPDDR5 memory version. Otherwise not much to see here.xol - Wednesday, September 20, 2023 - link
Polite reminder that "industrial design" means designing a product to be mass produced, not edgelord brushed titanium designed to convinced suckers a product is worth twice its equivalent value