The 5125C is an 8-core Barcelo die cut down to 2 cores with turbo disabled. Waste of good silicon, although it will outperform older chips. It shows why you want quad-core dies like Van Gogh available for budget products, or the industry should just abandon the dual-core soon.
I actually wouldn't mind quad-core dies with less functionality (Just 8x PCIe for two SSD's, two USB 4 controllers that are split up with dongle IC's, that kind of thing) if that meant getting cheap efficient laptops that don't use those garbage Atom-derived cores on the market. Perfect for third-world students, kids, elderly, etc...
Just unlock the boost clock for single-threading perf. And have the decency of calling it Athlon for fuck's sake, it's hilarious that they'd call that 2c/4t a Ryzen while 4c desktop parts are getting called Athlon.
They appear identical to the other Barcelo chips according to Notebookcheck and AMD's website. Same clock speeds. The exception is the Ryzen 3 5125C, which is the first dual-core APU AMD has made using an 8-core die.
I can think of no better use for these CPUs than being turned into instant ewaste data miners for good old disgusting Google's peepshow into its users' lives. Keep up the good work OEMs and AMD!
M1 is fine if you can design a product around its TDP. Apple overbuilt the GPU and at 15W (the suspected TDP) it runs at half the clock speed. All people talk about is the ALU and FPU performance, which is great (still not on par with the Opteron A1100 25W ARM parts, though those lack a GPU entirely) but for the GPU to be competitive and for the CPU to mop the floor of x86 market equals, it needs to boost to 29w-36w. Anandtech did an article on this and showed the power draw range is VERY WIDE for the M1.
Go use a Macbook Air or iPad Air M1 and you'll see what I mean, they run unreasonably hot and eventually throttle when doing anything other than light work.
It's pretty clear Apple designed the M as a polar opposite to A. It is designed to consume power at any expense for performance. The A series is designed to save power at any expense, and is a vastly more efficient package. And speaking of expense, the M1 costs a fortune to produce. 16 billion transistors (4 times that of Zen3 mobile parts) and an exotic 5nm process they are paying a premium for. It isn't appropriate for anything but $1000+ Apple devices.
I suspect the second gen M will solve this with an optimized low TDP package when they put it in an iPhone Pro. But until then x86 is still the sweet spot for inexpensive thin laptops.
Half of the transistors in Cezanne are fused off on 15W parts, only desktop parts get the full monty. The most powerful Cezanne ultramobile part, the 7 Pro 5850U, has 6.2 billion transistors enabled, or about 1/3rd that of an M1. I get the confusion because while products are manufactured with a certain number of transistors as a wow factor, that doesn't mean they are being used.
All M1 parts are fully enabled. THAT'S THE PROBLEM. They depend on their power states to throttle.
Rembrandt will be no different in mobile form. TDP is determined by the laws of physics in a package, and active transistors = heat. Process for process, the same number of transistors across processors will determine the thermal envelope.
Yes, you are correct about all of that, apparently the quad core part was 32w, putting it in line with the M1, which is still beats in numerous tests. SpecInt_Rate for an A1100 quad core is 80, where it is 69.7 for the M1.
Obviously the M1 is vastly superior in every other area, Opteron doesn't even have a GPU, but my point was to explain the ALU and FPU performance that everyone rants and raves about in M1 comes down to two things: ARM architecture and scale. Apple has the M1 run insanely high thermal envelope because they can get away with it at 5nm, but at a similar TDP to other ARM chips, it actually suffers in some areas because so many transistors have been dedicated to the GPU.
"It isn't appropriate for anything but $1000+ Apple devices."
You can buy iPad AIR with M1 for $599, so I don't know what are you talking about. Apple sells MB Air M1 with 128GB SSD for $799 also. Google out "Apple US Education Institution – Hardware and Software Price List".
" Apple US Education Institution – Hardware and Software Price List"." of which do you need to be a student in order to use this ? if so, this is moot, and pointless to suggest, unless you also added " but to use this, you need to be a student.
No, it isn’t. Sure it is offer for education, but the point is that Apple can make profit selling M1 hardware for less than $1000. So it is appropriate, and Apple could sell it for this price to anyone if they wanted to. Beside of this: don’t You know a student that can buy it for you? I’m sure 99% people on earth do have such option.
> Apple can make profit selling M1 hardware for less than $1000.
But they get app store revenue. So, they could afford to sell the hardware at break-even or perhaps a small loss, with a reasonable assumption of making it back on software. Sort of like video game consoles.
Also, Apple's vertical integration helps them shave overheads that inflate pricing of competing products.
"But they get app store revenue. So, they could afford to sell the hardware at break-even or perhaps a small loss, with a reasonable assumption of making it back on software. Sort of like video game consoles"
Theoritically it is possible, but I don't think Apple is selling hadrware without profit to anyone. Even iPhone, which fits better in your non-profit story. Apple sells M1 iPad AIR for $599, so regular $800 price for MB Air is possible if they'll decide to lower the price. Maybe it'll happen on M2 premiere. Here's interesting article about savings from ARM M1 over Intel CPUs: https://sumitgup.medium.com/why-did-apple-build-th...
sorry max but you are kind of wrong. looks like you DO need to be a student in order to buy apple at those prices. https://www.apple.com/education/pricelists/ and i am sure there are plenty of restrictions as well.
" don’t You know a student that can buy it for you? " as i said, there are probably restrictions and such that prevents this type of thing from happening. at least there is where i am.
I understand, that there might be restrictions. 1. I'm not US resident. 2. It is not important, that pricelist is for EDU sector only. It just shows, that Apple is making money selling M1 hardware under $1000. That's all. Have a nice day :)
im not a US resident either, and i know their are restrictions here when it comes to studient discounts. but to use it as a basis for pricing, is a little incorrect.
Alder Lake-N is a bit weird. I don't doubt it's a great chip due to IPC improvements and the doubling of the max core count. But if the heterogeneous approach works well at low TDPs, we should just see the 1+4, 2+4, and 2+8 chips take on that role. Give everything at least 1 big core.
It will be nice to see the dual and quad-core Tiger Lake chips get pushed out by Alder Lake. For example, you see the dual-core i3-1115G4 showing up in $250-350 laptop deals right now. I'm not sure what should be considered the direct successor to the 1115G4, but it looks like an i3-1210U with sufficient cooling would demolish that (no benchmarks out yet).
> if the heterogeneous approach works well at low TDPs, > we should just see the 1+4, 2+4, and 2+8 chips take on that role.
But $$$, though. Golden Cove is much less area-efficient than Gracemont, which makes it a poor candidate for low-cost chips. That's probably why the N-series won't have any.
> you see the dual-core i3-1115G4 showing up in $250-350 laptop deals right now.
I'd take one of those over a Tremont-based Jasper Lake SoC.
If 1 big core is comparable in die area to 4 small cores, maybe Alder Lake-N should have been 1+4 instead of 0+8. The improvement in single-threaded performance is likely a bigger deal than having 8 cores.
I compared the i3-1115G4 to the i3-1210U. Time will tell which CPUs end up in which price segment. But if Jasper Lake is selling for much more than $150 (US), it's a ripoff.
Okay, fair point on the 0+8 die vs. 1+4. I guess it could still be a power-efficiency issue, if these low-end chromebooks have correspondingly cheap, tiny batteries. Or, maybe it's just old-fashioned market segmentation.
Somehow, I doubt all of their 4-core Alder Lake-N's are going to use the 8-core die. Remember that Intel is in competition with Qualcomm, Mediatek, Rockchip, and others - all of which with probably much smaller dies. If true, that would make the 8-core product more of a special-case and not the main focus of the lineup.
High-end Chromebook is an oxymoron. These should not be bought, and neither should current Apple laptops, so long as there are no user changeable parts. I hear the M1 is a decent chip, but so long as one cannot upgrade/repair their own laptop, then what is the point of having one?
People should only buy laptops with decent firmware and upgrade options.
IMO, the only part that really needs to be user-changeable is battery.
I think the main issue with Chromebooks is software support. You're really at the mercy of the manufacturer for however long they decide to keep issuing updates, and then you're forced either to buy a new one or run increasingly insecure software that won't be able to install new apps and browse some websites, after a time.
On a few, you can manage to get a custom Linux install working, however this is far from a universal solution.
It's a much better situation than that other Google playground, Android.
I suspect you'd have an easier time getting Linux working well on a Ryzen-based Chromebook (or any other x86) than say, a model with a Qualcomm Snapdragon SoC. But the fact that they all run Coreboot now is a good start.
If I can't find a suitable replacement for my $80 Chromebook before mid-2025, guess I'll die. I hope to see 8-12 GB of RAM in the budget tier by then.
> I suspect you'd have an easier time getting Linux working well on a Ryzen-based > Chromebook (or any other x86)
Well, I was talking to someone with an Intel Gemini Lake-based chromebook and it wasn't easy to get it booting a mainstream Linux distro. Sounds to me like it's not always feasible, and this was someone quite well-versed in the specifics.
> $80 Chromebook
I'd never buy such a low-end model if I actually needed it as a laptop, unless that were absolutely the only thing I could afford. The route I went was to buy a refurb 13" i3 laptop and upgrade the RAM. Worked well for me, and total cost was less than half of new list price. This was pre-pandemic, FWIW.
I should add that the slight apprehension I have about buying used or "refurb" is that it's actually stolen. This one was "manufacturer refurb" and seemed to come in official-looking, branded brown-box packaging.
I would always insist on some kind of official packaging, when buying used or refurb (unless I knew the seller). We should do what we can to avoid supporting the market for stolen laptops.
It was an excellent purchase at the right time (December 2019) and it's surprisingly snappy. If I stick with MediaTek for my next one I would aim for an 8-core, e.g. MT8192, more RAM, and maybe 13-inch/1080p at a higher price point.
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nandnandnand - Thursday, May 5, 2022 - link
The 5125C is an 8-core Barcelo die cut down to 2 cores with turbo disabled. Waste of good silicon, although it will outperform older chips. It shows why you want quad-core dies like Van Gogh available for budget products, or the industry should just abandon the dual-core soon.Wereweeb - Thursday, May 5, 2022 - link
Yeah, fuck the poors amirite? /sI actually wouldn't mind quad-core dies with less functionality (Just 8x PCIe for two SSD's, two USB 4 controllers that are split up with dongle IC's, that kind of thing) if that meant getting cheap efficient laptops that don't use those garbage Atom-derived cores on the market. Perfect for third-world students, kids, elderly, etc...
Just unlock the boost clock for single-threading perf. And have the decency of calling it Athlon for fuck's sake, it's hilarious that they'd call that 2c/4t a Ryzen while 4c desktop parts are getting called Athlon.
shabby - Thursday, May 5, 2022 - link
How do these differ from the non C chips?nandnandnand - Thursday, May 5, 2022 - link
They appear identical to the other Barcelo chips according to Notebookcheck and AMD's website. Same clock speeds. The exception is the Ryzen 3 5125C, which is the first dual-core APU AMD has made using an 8-core die.lmcd - Thursday, May 5, 2022 - link
Probably have some firmware customization for CoreBootPeachNCream - Thursday, May 5, 2022 - link
I can think of no better use for these CPUs than being turned into instant ewaste data miners for good old disgusting Google's peepshow into its users' lives. Keep up the good work OEMs and AMD!kn00tcn - Thursday, May 12, 2022 - link
i was under the impression that a variety of chromebooks can have linux put onto them, or even corebootlemurbutton - Friday, May 6, 2022 - link
Boring. Wake me up when AMD can match the M1. I don't think AMD can until 3nm Zen6.Samus - Friday, May 6, 2022 - link
M1 is fine if you can design a product around its TDP. Apple overbuilt the GPU and at 15W (the suspected TDP) it runs at half the clock speed. All people talk about is the ALU and FPU performance, which is great (still not on par with the Opteron A1100 25W ARM parts, though those lack a GPU entirely) but for the GPU to be competitive and for the CPU to mop the floor of x86 market equals, it needs to boost to 29w-36w. Anandtech did an article on this and showed the power draw range is VERY WIDE for the M1.Go use a Macbook Air or iPad Air M1 and you'll see what I mean, they run unreasonably hot and eventually throttle when doing anything other than light work.
It's pretty clear Apple designed the M as a polar opposite to A. It is designed to consume power at any expense for performance. The A series is designed to save power at any expense, and is a vastly more efficient package. And speaking of expense, the M1 costs a fortune to produce. 16 billion transistors (4 times that of Zen3 mobile parts) and an exotic 5nm process they are paying a premium for. It isn't appropriate for anything but $1000+ Apple devices.
I suspect the second gen M will solve this with an optimized low TDP package when they put it in an iPhone Pro. But until then x86 is still the sweet spot for inexpensive thin laptops.
Small Bison - Friday, May 6, 2022 - link
The M1 isn't four times the transistors as the Zen3 APUs: Cezanne was 10.7 billion transistors, and Rembrandt is 13.1 billion.Samus - Friday, May 6, 2022 - link
Half of the transistors in Cezanne are fused off on 15W parts, only desktop parts get the full monty. The most powerful Cezanne ultramobile part, the 7 Pro 5850U, has 6.2 billion transistors enabled, or about 1/3rd that of an M1. I get the confusion because while products are manufactured with a certain number of transistors as a wow factor, that doesn't mean they are being used.https://chipguider.com/?proc=amd-ryzen-7-pro-5850u
All M1 parts are fully enabled. THAT'S THE PROBLEM. They depend on their power states to throttle.
Rembrandt will be no different in mobile form. TDP is determined by the laws of physics in a package, and active transistors = heat. Process for process, the same number of transistors across processors will determine the thermal envelope.
mode_13h - Saturday, May 7, 2022 - link
> All people talk about is the ALU and FPU performance, which is great> (still not on par with the Opteron A1100 25W ARM parts
That can't possibly be true. The A1100 was a 8x A57 CPU, made on 28 nm. Also, the 25 W version was only quad-core.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/9956/the-silver-lin...
Samus - Tuesday, May 10, 2022 - link
Yes, you are correct about all of that, apparently the quad core part was 32w, putting it in line with the M1, which is still beats in numerous tests. SpecInt_Rate for an A1100 quad core is 80, where it is 69.7 for the M1.Obviously the M1 is vastly superior in every other area, Opteron doesn't even have a GPU, but my point was to explain the ALU and FPU performance that everyone rants and raves about in M1 comes down to two things: ARM architecture and scale. Apple has the M1 run insanely high thermal envelope because they can get away with it at 5nm, but at a similar TDP to other ARM chips, it actually suffers in some areas because so many transistors have been dedicated to the GPU.
Samus - Tuesday, May 10, 2022 - link
*Octacore part was 32w. Need an edit button :(max - Sunday, May 8, 2022 - link
"It isn't appropriate for anything but $1000+ Apple devices."You can buy iPad AIR with M1 for $599, so I don't know what are you talking about. Apple sells MB Air M1 with 128GB SSD for $799 also. Google out "Apple US Education Institution – Hardware and Software Price List".
Qasar - Monday, May 9, 2022 - link
" Apple US Education Institution – Hardware and Software Price List"."of which do you need to be a student in order to use this ? if so, this is moot, and pointless to suggest, unless you also added " but to use this, you need to be a student.
max - Monday, May 9, 2022 - link
No, it isn’t. Sure it is offer for education, but the point is that Apple can make profit selling M1 hardware for less than $1000. So it is appropriate, and Apple could sell it for this price to anyone if they wanted to. Beside of this: don’t You know a student that can buy it for you? I’m sure 99% people on earth do have such option.mode_13h - Monday, May 9, 2022 - link
> Apple can make profit selling M1 hardware for less than $1000.But they get app store revenue. So, they could afford to sell the hardware at break-even or perhaps a small loss, with a reasonable assumption of making it back on software. Sort of like video game consoles.
Also, Apple's vertical integration helps them shave overheads that inflate pricing of competing products.
max - Monday, May 9, 2022 - link
"But they get app store revenue. So, they could afford to sell the hardware at break-even or perhaps a small loss, with a reasonable assumption of making it back on software. Sort of like video game consoles"Theoritically it is possible, but I don't think Apple is selling hadrware without profit to anyone. Even iPhone, which fits better in your non-profit story. Apple sells M1 iPad AIR for $599, so regular $800 price for MB Air is possible if they'll decide to lower the price. Maybe it'll happen on M2 premiere. Here's interesting article about savings from ARM M1 over Intel CPUs: https://sumitgup.medium.com/why-did-apple-build-th...
Qasar - Monday, May 9, 2022 - link
sorry max but you are kind of wrong. looks like you DO need to be a student in order to buy apple at those prices. https://www.apple.com/education/pricelists/ and i am sure there are plenty of restrictions as well.i dont know where you are getting your prices from but according to this page :
https://www.apple.com/us-edu/shop/buy-mac/macbook-...
the macbook air M1 starts @ 899
" don’t You know a student that can buy it for you? " as i said, there are probably restrictions and such that prevents this type of thing from happening. at least there is where i am.
max - Tuesday, May 10, 2022 - link
I understand, that there might be restrictions. 1. I'm not US resident. 2. It is not important, that pricelist is for EDU sector only. It just shows, that Apple is making money selling M1 hardware under $1000. That's all. Have a nice day :)Qasar - Tuesday, May 10, 2022 - link
im not a US resident either, and i know their are restrictions here when it comes to studient discounts. but to use it as a basis for pricing, is a little incorrect.maybe making money, we dont know for sure
logoffon - Friday, May 6, 2022 - link
Might as well buy you a body pillow out of M1 chip for a better sleep.usiname - Monday, May 9, 2022 - link
The regular M1? M1 Pro is destroyed by 6900hshttps://youtu.be/H2KU3813llE?t=557
Samus - Tuesday, May 10, 2022 - link
M1 Pro isn't available in anything under $2000 and we are talking about chromebooks here...Unashamed_unoriginal_username_x86 - Friday, May 6, 2022 - link
Anyone for an $800+ chromebook? Imagine how smooth your PPT on the alabama beach mouse will run with 8 coresnandnandnand - Friday, May 6, 2022 - link
Never buy a Chromebook or any other laptop at MSRP. Wait until it's at least 50% off.mode_13h - Saturday, May 7, 2022 - link
True. You can typically get good deals on the previous year's models, and yet the specs often aren't much worse.Now, Alder Lake-N should be a notable exception, because I think Gracemont has come a long ways from its Tremont predecessor.
nandnandnand - Saturday, May 7, 2022 - link
Alder Lake-N is a bit weird. I don't doubt it's a great chip due to IPC improvements and the doubling of the max core count. But if the heterogeneous approach works well at low TDPs, we should just see the 1+4, 2+4, and 2+8 chips take on that role. Give everything at least 1 big core.It will be nice to see the dual and quad-core Tiger Lake chips get pushed out by Alder Lake. For example, you see the dual-core i3-1115G4 showing up in $250-350 laptop deals right now. I'm not sure what should be considered the direct successor to the 1115G4, but it looks like an i3-1210U with sufficient cooling would demolish that (no benchmarks out yet).
mode_13h - Monday, May 9, 2022 - link
> if the heterogeneous approach works well at low TDPs,> we should just see the 1+4, 2+4, and 2+8 chips take on that role.
But $$$, though. Golden Cove is much less area-efficient than Gracemont, which makes it a poor candidate for low-cost chips. That's probably why the N-series won't have any.
> you see the dual-core i3-1115G4 showing up in $250-350 laptop deals right now.
I'd take one of those over a Tremont-based Jasper Lake SoC.
nandnandnand - Monday, May 9, 2022 - link
If 1 big core is comparable in die area to 4 small cores, maybe Alder Lake-N should have been 1+4 instead of 0+8. The improvement in single-threaded performance is likely a bigger deal than having 8 cores.I compared the i3-1115G4 to the i3-1210U. Time will tell which CPUs end up in which price segment. But if Jasper Lake is selling for much more than $150 (US), it's a ripoff.
mode_13h - Tuesday, May 10, 2022 - link
Okay, fair point on the 0+8 die vs. 1+4. I guess it could still be a power-efficiency issue, if these low-end chromebooks have correspondingly cheap, tiny batteries. Or, maybe it's just old-fashioned market segmentation.Somehow, I doubt all of their 4-core Alder Lake-N's are going to use the 8-core die. Remember that Intel is in competition with Qualcomm, Mediatek, Rockchip, and others - all of which with probably much smaller dies. If true, that would make the 8-core product more of a special-case and not the main focus of the lineup.
Shmee - Sunday, May 8, 2022 - link
High-end Chromebook is an oxymoron. These should not be bought, and neither should current Apple laptops, so long as there are no user changeable parts. I hear the M1 is a decent chip, but so long as one cannot upgrade/repair their own laptop, then what is the point of having one?People should only buy laptops with decent firmware and upgrade options.
max - Monday, May 9, 2022 - link
Yeah, people shouldn”t buy smatrphones also, because they can’t upgrade and repair them. Wake up!mode_13h - Monday, May 9, 2022 - link
> there are no user changeable parts.IMO, the only part that really needs to be user-changeable is battery.
I think the main issue with Chromebooks is software support. You're really at the mercy of the manufacturer for however long they decide to keep issuing updates, and then you're forced either to buy a new one or run increasingly insecure software that won't be able to install new apps and browse some websites, after a time.
On a few, you can manage to get a custom Linux install working, however this is far from a universal solution.
nandnandnand - Monday, May 9, 2022 - link
They extended support for many models, and now 8 years is typical.https://9to5google.com/2020/10/15/some-chromebooks...
It's a much better situation than that other Google playground, Android.
I suspect you'd have an easier time getting Linux working well on a Ryzen-based Chromebook (or any other x86) than say, a model with a Qualcomm Snapdragon SoC. But the fact that they all run Coreboot now is a good start.
If I can't find a suitable replacement for my $80 Chromebook before mid-2025, guess I'll die. I hope to see 8-12 GB of RAM in the budget tier by then.
mode_13h - Tuesday, May 10, 2022 - link
> I suspect you'd have an easier time getting Linux working well on a Ryzen-based> Chromebook (or any other x86)
Well, I was talking to someone with an Intel Gemini Lake-based chromebook and it wasn't easy to get it booting a mainstream Linux distro. Sounds to me like it's not always feasible, and this was someone quite well-versed in the specifics.
> $80 Chromebook
I'd never buy such a low-end model if I actually needed it as a laptop, unless that were absolutely the only thing I could afford. The route I went was to buy a refurb 13" i3 laptop and upgrade the RAM. Worked well for me, and total cost was less than half of new list price. This was pre-pandemic, FWIW.
mode_13h - Tuesday, May 10, 2022 - link
I should add that the slight apprehension I have about buying used or "refurb" is that it's actually stolen. This one was "manufacturer refurb" and seemed to come in official-looking, branded brown-box packaging.I would always insist on some kind of official packaging, when buying used or refurb (unless I knew the seller). We should do what we can to avoid supporting the market for stolen laptops.
Makste - Thursday, May 19, 2022 - link
Agreednandnandnand - Tuesday, May 10, 2022 - link
https://slickdeals.net/e/13719524It was an excellent purchase at the right time (December 2019) and it's surprisingly snappy. If I stick with MediaTek for my next one I would aim for an 8-core, e.g. MT8192, more RAM, and maybe 13-inch/1080p at a higher price point.