The real question is, if this was the optimal design for static pressure why wouldn't a company like Noctua have released something like this already? Instead of trying to get their blades as close the edge as possible like with their new release.
One thing I don't understand is how it will consume more energy? I'd buy that it does use more energy to get up to speed initially, however, once at steady state speed it would be just like any other fan...when the drag = the power it's in steady state..so if this is more efficient it would move more air than less efficient fan at the same power...and since it does that it's a lower RPM, but who cares, it's moving more air for the same power?
No it doesn't. Does friction increase if you have extra mass in your car at a given velocity? No, the drag is given by the shape of your car and the airspeed.
Actually it does. Increase the weight of the car and the wheel bearings will see a proportional increase in load, which will get expressed as additional heat. If what you were saying is true than we could use the same wheel bearing we use on a Miata on a 747 and suffer no issues. Friction accounts for most of the slowing force below around 40-50 mph or so, depending on the exact Cd of the vehicle.
The vast majority of resistance you are facing when driving is wind resistance. In my velomobile, even at 20 mph rolling resistance only accounts for 15% of resistance, and even taking a passenger and doubling the load only increases rolling resistance by 30%, which would still be less than 20% of the resistance I'd be facing. Keep in mind that drag increases by a square of speed (or 4 times), so load on a flat surface, going straight, at speed, is really negligible compared to wind resistance at high speeds.
Sure, I was talking about resistance from airflow. If you are talking about friction from the weight of the fan against the axle you are correct about that component, but that is pretty negligible compared to the work against airflow.
Frictional losses are not proportional to mass (since the weight of blades is only one force in the system), but they will go up a little if you make the blades heavier. I guess the maximum RPMs are limited, but power consumption isn't too much more.
I mean you can argue that power is roughly the same at lower RPMs, if you want. Meanwhile if you run this design at the SAME RPMs, it will eat more power. It's not a significant factor in a desktop. I'd be more interested in bearing longevity and noise over time. A good Noctua is rated at 150K hours and has a 6 year warranty.
Still if the price is right these crown fans would be worth checking out for some rigs. They are probably ideal at lower speeds. I'd have to run them through their entire RPM range to see if they make any funny noises at certain speeds, but they look interesting.
@Alexvrb: "I'd be more interested in bearing longevity and noise over time. A good Noctua is rated at 150K hours and has a 6 year warranty."
Blacknoise Technologies makes some Noise Blocker eLoop fans that function similarly to these. They have a 6 year warranty and are rated from 120K to 160K depending on RPMs. That said, my first batch of eLoops didn't live up to these expectations. Second batch and beyond are holding up fine though. The question is how good Inwin's quality is relative to the eLoops.
Interesting. On paper though looking through the specs for their eLoop B14-PS 140mm PWM fan, it has similar airflow and noise as Noctua's NF-A14 PWM, but inferior static pressure. That limits it to case fans, and even then sometimes I have more intake fans than exhaust ones so the extra pressure might still come in handy.
Seems like good product overall though, poking around.
These types of blade sealing are more efficient from an aerodynamic point of view. So, less torque and power for a given flow / pressure. Power problems may well arise from bearing loads though, especially if their FDB is under a higher / asymmetric load (more likely with higher edge mass). If their bearing is operating within spec. it should still be more efficient overall.
Trust me, this is cheaper to do than what Noctua have done. They haven't done it because designs like this have already been tried and they always result in inferior performance due to increased load on the bearings.
I've used these. My first batch wasn't quite as reliable as I'd hoped, but the performance was certainly not inferior. Second batch and beyond seems to be holding up fine.
They don't because the spinning mass will upset the acoustics. The fundamental tone will be a major issue for this fan, due to the unbalanced aspect - either emitting airbourne or worse propagating through the case. If it was properly balanced (phase / single) it could be very quiet, but thats much more $$$ !
Uh, because this is dumb? A rotating frame has excessive drag due to the huge amount of surface area at maximum speed without contributing to actual airflow. So you might get some air pressure advantage at a huge cost of power consumption and some additional turbulence. I'd wait for review but might not be worth it.
@megadirk: "The real question is, if this was the optimal design for static pressure why wouldn't a company like Noctua have released something like this already? Instead of trying to get their blades as close the edge as possible like with their new release."
It seems it's not, the a15 pwn from noctua generates 115,5 m³/h at 1200 rpm with 19,2 db(a) while this one 113,83 (64.24 CFM) or 117,7 (69.03 CFM in the picture) at 1500 rpm with 31.3 db(a). But noctua has less static pressure on the 1200 rpm, while the 1500 rpm one, 140 m³/h, 2.08 mm and 24.6 db(a). At least on paper I don't see any improvments
And someone else needs to fix this design too; not only the outrageous price, but the wide frame directly in the air flow direction. Yes, support is needed, but rotated 90 degrees to minimize the turbulence and the noise created and to reduce local pressure.
$60 for 2 fans likely USD is pricey enough (IMO) but then again quality of 99% of everything in this world costs extra, or at the least, a perceived higher quality where the companies us the name recognition to get away with "murder" ahem Ngreedia comes to mind ^.^
would have been neat if this was a "video" to see it in action, airflow is mehh for a 140mm fan, noise is a similar mehh (many companies absolutely do not measure the same, so this is subjective at best) the pressure or lack of is not that good, maybe the blades could have been notched or something AND because I 99% hate all RGB BS out there, am sure they could have trimmed back at least a bit of power by not bothering to put RGB on it.
I am quite partial to clear (or a rainbow hue) / smoke color bladed fans though, that Noctua Redux grey color is quite nice as well
Because they didn't offer the advertised benefits and had a large number of drawbacks. The dead area at the centre of an axial fan's airflow is irrelevant for case fans and can be designed around for heatsinks, so they offer no benefit at the cost of terrible noise characteristics due to the difficulties of balancing that much moving mass.
Have you ever looked at the dust pattern on heatsinks and radiators? The hub contributes a large dead zone. Larger than you seem to be willing to admit to. That's a dead zone on a heatsink or radiator not actually contributing.
Plus you didn't bother to acknowledge the actual unique part of the Y.S. fan. That the motor(s) were actually on the frames edge, instead of the hub. This InWin fan still has the motor in the middle. It might not have taken off because of patents rather than "drawbacks".
I wonder if the circumferential part could warp over time, or as a function of heat and humidity. That might create stresses that introduce nonuniformities in the orientation of the blades, which could manifest as vibration and/or noise issues.
It's incorrect as stated, but the additional load on the bearings and the extra aerodynamic drag would most likely produce the same result of a lower top speed.
I'm going to estimate drag as the power required to drive the fan. Here are a few data points from the datasheets that corroborate (or at least don't dispute) your statement.
According to the datasheets the closed ring technology, represented by the eLoop fans, actually uses less power than a high quality standard fan at the lowest RPM. Though, it immediately looses its advantage at the next speed step and the disparity continues to grow until a 2400RPM closed ring fan uses more power than a 3000RPM Noctua fan. The second point of interest is that Noctua's NF-S series fans seem to be far less power efficient than their other series and even the eLoops at each RPM present. This suggests that their are larger concerns than closed ring vs open that Noctua had to address to get such low power to begin with.
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megadirk - Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - link
The real question is, if this was the optimal design for static pressure why wouldn't a company like Noctua have released something like this already? Instead of trying to get their blades as close the edge as possible like with their new release.ATC9001 - Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - link
Might not meet Noctua's required profit margins?One thing I don't understand is how it will consume more energy? I'd buy that it does use more energy to get up to speed initially, however, once at steady state speed it would be just like any other fan...when the drag = the power it's in steady state..so if this is more efficient it would move more air than less efficient fan at the same power...and since it does that it's a lower RPM, but who cares, it's moving more air for the same power?
DanNeely - Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - link
frictional losses are proportional to the mass of the spinning part.mongosatan - Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - link
No it doesn't. Does friction increase if you have extra mass in your car at a given velocity? No, the drag is given by the shape of your car and the airspeed.e36Jeff - Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - link
Actually it does. Increase the weight of the car and the wheel bearings will see a proportional increase in load, which will get expressed as additional heat. If what you were saying is true than we could use the same wheel bearing we use on a Miata on a 747 and suffer no issues. Friction accounts for most of the slowing force below around 40-50 mph or so, depending on the exact Cd of the vehicle.wrkingclass_hero - Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - link
The vast majority of resistance you are facing when driving is wind resistance. In my velomobile, even at 20 mph rolling resistance only accounts for 15% of resistance, and even taking a passenger and doubling the load only increases rolling resistance by 30%, which would still be less than 20% of the resistance I'd be facing.Keep in mind that drag increases by a square of speed (or 4 times), so load on a flat surface, going straight, at speed, is really negligible compared to wind resistance at high speeds.
Spunjji - Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - link
But we're talking about a fan here, so none of that is relevant. Mongosatan's comment was inaccurate and further discussion is irrelevant!mongosatan - Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - link
Sure, I was talking about resistance from airflow. If you are talking about friction from the weight of the fan against the axle you are correct about that component, but that is pretty negligible compared to the work against airflow.saratoga4 - Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - link
Frictional losses are not proportional to mass (since the weight of blades is only one force in the system), but they will go up a little if you make the blades heavier. I guess the maximum RPMs are limited, but power consumption isn't too much more.Alexvrb - Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - link
I mean you can argue that power is roughly the same at lower RPMs, if you want. Meanwhile if you run this design at the SAME RPMs, it will eat more power. It's not a significant factor in a desktop. I'd be more interested in bearing longevity and noise over time. A good Noctua is rated at 150K hours and has a 6 year warranty.Still if the price is right these crown fans would be worth checking out for some rigs. They are probably ideal at lower speeds. I'd have to run them through their entire RPM range to see if they make any funny noises at certain speeds, but they look interesting.
BurntMyBacon - Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - link
@Alexvrb: "I'd be more interested in bearing longevity and noise over time. A good Noctua is rated at 150K hours and has a 6 year warranty."Blacknoise Technologies makes some Noise Blocker eLoop fans that function similarly to these. They have a 6 year warranty and are rated from 120K to 160K depending on RPMs. That said, my first batch of eLoops didn't live up to these expectations. Second batch and beyond are holding up fine though. The question is how good Inwin's quality is relative to the eLoops.
Alexvrb - Thursday, June 21, 2018 - link
Interesting. On paper though looking through the specs for their eLoop B14-PS 140mm PWM fan, it has similar airflow and noise as Noctua's NF-A14 PWM, but inferior static pressure. That limits it to case fans, and even then sometimes I have more intake fans than exhaust ones so the extra pressure might still come in handy.Seems like good product overall though, poking around.
gopjer11 - Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - link
These types of blade sealing are more efficient from an aerodynamic point of view. So, less torque and power for a given flow / pressure. Power problems may well arise from bearing loads though, especially if their FDB is under a higher / asymmetric load (more likely with higher edge mass). If their bearing is operating within spec. it should still be more efficient overall.Spunjji - Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - link
Trust me, this is cheaper to do than what Noctua have done. They haven't done it because designs like this have already been tried and they always result in inferior performance due to increased load on the bearings.BurntMyBacon - Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - link
You mean designs like this:http://www.blacknoise.com/site/en/products/noisebl...
I've used these. My first batch wasn't quite as reliable as I'd hoped, but the performance was certainly not inferior. Second batch and beyond seems to be holding up fine.
gopjer11 - Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - link
They don't because the spinning mass will upset the acoustics. The fundamental tone will be a major issue for this fan, due to the unbalanced aspect - either emitting airbourne or worse propagating through the case. If it was properly balanced (phase / single) it could be very quiet, but thats much more $$$ !Hereiam2005 - Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - link
Uh, because this is dumb?A rotating frame has excessive drag due to the huge amount of surface area at maximum speed without contributing to actual airflow.
So you might get some air pressure advantage at a huge cost of power consumption and some additional turbulence. I'd wait for review but might not be worth it.
Spunjji - Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - link
This. It's definitely not worth it!BurntMyBacon - Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - link
@megadirk: "The real question is, if this was the optimal design for static pressure why wouldn't a company like Noctua have released something like this already? Instead of trying to get their blades as close the edge as possible like with their new release."I submit for your consideration:
http://www.blacknoise.com/site/en/products/noisebl...
They are, perhaps, not as well known as Noctua, but not an unknown entity either. They are pretty well regarded AFAIK.
umano - Sunday, June 24, 2018 - link
It seems it's not, the a15 pwn from noctua generates 115,5 m³/h at 1200 rpm with 19,2 db(a) while this one 113,83 (64.24 CFM) or 117,7 (69.03 CFM in the picture) at 1500 rpm with 31.3 db(a). But noctua has less static pressure on the 1200 rpm, while the 1500 rpm one, 140 m³/h, 2.08 mm and 24.6 db(a). At least on paper I don't see any improvmentsjrs77 - Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - link
Or you could buy some Noiseblocker eLoop.BurntMyBacon - Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - link
Agreed. They seem to be more thoroughly thought out than these as well.Demon-Xanth - Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - link
Reminds me of the old tip magnetic drive fans that made a brief ripple.Spunjji - Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - link
That's exactly what I thought. Those were terrible too!AdrianB1 - Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - link
And someone else needs to fix this design too; not only the outrageous price, but the wide frame directly in the air flow direction. Yes, support is needed, but rotated 90 degrees to minimize the turbulence and the noise created and to reduce local pressure.Dragonstongue - Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - link
$60 for 2 fans likely USD is pricey enough (IMO) but then again quality of 99% of everything in this world costs extra, or at the least, a perceived higher quality where the companies us the name recognition to get away with "murder" ahem Ngreedia comes to mind ^.^would have been neat if this was a "video" to see it in action, airflow is mehh for a 140mm fan, noise is a similar mehh (many companies absolutely do not measure the same, so this is subjective at best) the pressure or lack of is not that good, maybe the blades could have been notched or something AND because I 99% hate all RGB BS out there, am sure they could have trimmed back at least a bit of power by not bothering to put RGB on it.
I am quite partial to clear (or a rainbow hue) / smoke color bladed fans though, that Noctua Redux grey color is quite nice as well
HappyCracker - Tuesday, June 19, 2018 - link
These remind me of the Y. S. Tech Tip Magnetic Drive fans from the early 2000s. Why didn't those catch on more?Spunjji - Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - link
Because they didn't offer the advertised benefits and had a large number of drawbacks. The dead area at the centre of an axial fan's airflow is irrelevant for case fans and can be designed around for heatsinks, so they offer no benefit at the cost of terrible noise characteristics due to the difficulties of balancing that much moving mass.CheapSushi - Thursday, June 21, 2018 - link
Have you ever looked at the dust pattern on heatsinks and radiators? The hub contributes a large dead zone. Larger than you seem to be willing to admit to. That's a dead zone on a heatsink or radiator not actually contributing.CheapSushi - Thursday, June 21, 2018 - link
Plus you didn't bother to acknowledge the actual unique part of the Y.S. fan. That the motor(s) were actually on the frames edge, instead of the hub. This InWin fan still has the motor in the middle. It might not have taken off because of patents rather than "drawbacks".mode_13h - Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - link
I wonder if the circumferential part could warp over time, or as a function of heat and humidity. That might create stresses that introduce nonuniformities in the orientation of the blades, which could manifest as vibration and/or noise issues.Gigaplex - Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - link
"The downside is that there is more mass, so the total RPM of the fan (at equal torque) is likely to be lower."Mass affects acceleration, not speed. What was the basis of this claim?
Spunjji - Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - link
It's incorrect as stated, but the additional load on the bearings and the extra aerodynamic drag would most likely produce the same result of a lower top speed.BurntMyBacon - Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - link
I'm going to estimate drag as the power required to drive the fan. Here are a few data points from the datasheets that corroborate (or at least don't dispute) your statement.NB eLoop B12-1 - 800RPM - 0.33W
NF-S12A ULN - 800RPM - 0.72W
NF-A12x25 ULN - 1200RPM - 0.6W
NB eLoop B12-2 - 1300RPM - 0.85W
NF-S12A FLX -1200RPM - 1.44W
NF-A12x25 PWM - 2000RPM - 1.68W
NB eLoop B12-P - 2000RPM - 1.92W
NF-F12 industrialPPC-3000 PWM - 3000RPM - 3.6W
NB eLoop B12-4 - 2400RPM - 3.84W
According to the datasheets the closed ring technology, represented by the eLoop fans, actually uses less power than a high quality standard fan at the lowest RPM. Though, it immediately looses its advantage at the next speed step and the disparity continues to grow until a 2400RPM closed ring fan uses more power than a 3000RPM Noctua fan. The second point of interest is that Noctua's NF-S series fans seem to be far less power efficient than their other series and even the eLoops at each RPM present. This suggests that their are larger concerns than closed ring vs open that Noctua had to address to get such low power to begin with.
zodiacfml - Wednesday, June 20, 2018 - link
Meh. Give me MSI's gaming GPU fan in a 120mm fan config.