MediaTek is the worst offender in GNU GPL v2 Linux Kernel guidelines, their junk always ends up being abandoned by OEM and Modding community as well. Until they can beat CAF of Qcomm, they are junk.
All that is just the new ARM IP talk simply getting it first to market that's it makes sense since it's a Taiwanese corporation so TSMC is allowing them on this first dibs ?, and the worst part of these ARM processors including Apple is omega AI capabilities this that and woahh but what do they provide for end user ? Nothing. Android barely has any APIs that allow the developers to do something, mostly these AI stuff is used for ISP and Camera and other camera gimmickry. Once Apple launches their Auto Hash scanning on their platform everyone will soon follow, Google loves to ape Apple so they will be first irrespective of how hard it is on Android due to Play Services and all the different vendors.
I agree with the others, the comment section here has derailed and turned into poo.
There is A LOT here to commend MediaTek for. But they have five major criticisms that they need addressing for them to match Qualcomm, let alone exceed Apple. 1- Make sure this is not another vaporware or paper-launch. Pump these chips out. We want to see your FLAGSHIP product out there and in tens-of-millions units in use by consumers. 2- Quit that nonsense about cheating in graphs, benchmarks, and false showings. It doesn't lift you up, it drags everybody down. 3- Provide drivers, source-code, documentation, and be very GPLv2 friendly. Support third-party developers, give bootloader unlock codes, and generally make consumers happy. 4- Officially announce and support their chipset for long-term (min x4 AndroidOS Platforms/3+ years update) 5- Focus on refining your product. Be willing to lose marketing points, or even the performance crown if it means having a better device for users/higher efficiency and very little throttling. Work on those drivers, Adreno is killing it out there compared to Mali.
Hopefully you'll swing by the right direction. We will be watching, and hoping you do. Best of luck 👍
Hogwash! Karl Marx only had an estate worth £250 when he died, and after he moved to London, he basically depended on Fredrich Engels to keep his family from starving. 4 of Marx's 7 children died in childhood, and some people think that Marx's poverty may have been one of the contributing factors for the deaths of his children. Engels' estate when he died was worth £25,265, which is about $3.5 million in today's dollars.
"I always found it funny that China is the most runaway capitalist system on the planet, including money makes you right"
China does what any slave wage (or just, slave) economy has done since Mesopotamia: export to large liberal economies, since those are the only ones that can absorb output.
Actually, wages in China have been rising by about 20% a year. So much so that manufacturers are moving to Vietnam and other lower wage countries. It now costs almost as much to manufacture many products there as it does here.
I'm sure there are numerous billionaires languishing in Chinese prisons who would disagree with that characterization. Money clearly follows from power, in present-day China -- not the other way around.
> It’s closer to what the Japanese were forty years ago.
The exception I take with this is that Japan's system of government is decidedly democratic and somewhat decentralized. In China, there's too much concentration of power, leaving no obvious pathway towards reform.
Howard Zinn’s description of the Arawak people is an example of actual communism. The Amish are a close approximation also. Many societies have been strongly communistic throughout history. They are generally not belligerent and die out. The Arawaks were slaughtered by aggressive Europeans and the Amish will eventually find their land confiscated as US population expands and the resulting sprawl overtakes what’s left of their area.
The more important dichotomy seems to be aggressive expansionism versus peaceful inwardness — what the expansionists call backwardness.
> the Amish will eventually find their land confiscated as US population > expands and the resulting sprawl overtakes what’s left of their area.
The Amish have a very high birth rate, for fairly obvious reasons. I think they're probably "sprawling" much faster than the cities around them. And since they have legal ownership of their land, it's not clear how it would be "confiscated".
Of course I have. It's no longer used much, in the US. Furthermore, it's subject to legal challenge and has to withstand the test of an overwhelming public interest.
Do you even live in the USA? It seems like you don't know as much about it as you think.
That's not to imply that plenty of people living here don't know even less about it. However, it helps to live in a place, if you're to really understand how such things as its legal system function.
‘It’s very rare. And it can. E fought in court. It’s hard to see any way their property could be taken by the state using it.’
Rarity is irrelevant. It only takes one success.
Have a chat with the people who have lost in court, such as the guy who tried to use eminent domain to take justice Breyer’s huge property. Yeah, one loses in court when one takes on a Supreme Court justice.
It's not when you're clearly implying it will be used to dispossess many thousands of their land.
Sure, you can pick through wikipedia and find rare exceptions, but the general rule actually counts for something. The Supreme Court case you reference was lost because it was badly argued, not because it was wrong in principle.
The reason there's not much use of eminent domain, and what prompted the US Federal Government to follow that ruling by instituting an explicit policy only to use it for matters of public use & with just compensation is that it's politically unpopular. If some people start getting their property taken unjustly, it creates a panic among others that they could also be on the receiving end of such actions. That's why it's naturally self-limiting and was previously used mainly against the politically disenfranchised.
I get that you're anti-American. I don't even take issue with that. I do take issue with misrepresentations and distortions.
> This forum would be improved with your account removed.
Obviously, so that you could spread your FUD and disinformation, virtually unchallenged. Don't like it? Find somewhere else to haunt.
The main takeaway I get from your posts is that you're almost as lazy as you are cynical. You think you can brush away logic, reason, sound argumentation, and facts with unsubstantiated allegations of fallacies, "ad hom's", and a few lazy insults of your own. Nobody is buying it.
Rest assured that as long as you keep trolling and spreading disinformation on here, I intend to counter it.
Your posts are far too consistent in terms of the bad faith pattern of using ad hominem as a crutch. People who are able and willing to discuss and debate in a factual manner are beneficial. Those who rely upon trickery aren’t.
I expect that you’ll criticize me again in your response to these posts but the tu quoque fallacy (and/or conventional ad hom) won’t erase your clear track record of bad-faith/corrupt argumentation in which the character of the poster becomes the subject rather than the actual subject in contention. That goes hand-in-hand with your 'I imagine'/'I'm guessing" tactic of stuffing words into mouths.
There is not a single poster who frequents this forum who abuses ad hom as frequently as you do, not even close. You and anyone else are free to dislike the assertions I made and challenge the information I post, so long as it’s done without personal attack.
You have not learned that lesson, despite me highlighting the importance of good-faith discourse many times. Agreeing me some things I write, tepidly or fully, does not erase the ad hom duplicity. I stooped to that level briefly when I became exasperated (the AI comment) but I’m not going to be drawn into that again. Stick to the issues or put a cork in it.
> Your posts are far too consistent in terms of the bad faith pattern
Same. Answering your bad-faith posts gets so tiresome that I sometimes lessen the tedium by replying in kind.
And you're one to talk about crutches.
> People who are able and willing to discuss and debate in a factual manner are beneficial. > Those who rely upon trickery aren’t.
Agreed.
> your clear track record of bad-faith/corrupt argumentation
Nobody appointed you as an adjudicator of our exchanges, and you're hardly impartial. You declare fallacies as if a self-evident and irrefutable fact, rather than the biased opinion of a counter-party. Your accusations are unsubstantiated, almost without exception. If you want a claim to stick, you need to support it.
> That goes hand-in-hand with your 'I imagine'/'I'm guessing" tactic of stuffing words into mouths.
It's a rhetorical form of conjecture. It's a presumption I'm proffering with sufficient qualification that it's not to be taken as established fact, and is indeed open to challenge. This is a chat forum. I'm not going to buttress every claim with citations, especially those garnering no objections. And I cannot know, a priori, to which someone might object.
> Agreeing me some things I write, tepidly or fully, does not erase the ad hom duplicity.
Get over yourself, guy. I don't care what some internet rando thinks about me, much less one who spouts as much nonsense and trolls as much as you do.
Do what you want, but I take each post on its merits (or lack thereof).
> Stick to the issues or put a cork in it.
How about you not abruptly try to hijack these forums for your own agenda? So long as there are willing participants, it's fine if conversation sometimes naturally meanders. But it's obvious and jarring, when you inject a new subject apropos of absolutely nothing, that you're really not participating in these forums entirely in good faith. The purpose of these forums is to discuss the subject matter of the articles & closely-related topics. That's why most of us are here.
BTW, I think you'll find that nearly all of the friction between us also happens in off-topic tangents. In fact, if you'd stay more on-topic, I think you'd encounter much less friction between yourself and everyone else.
So, what do you guys think of that new Mediatek Dimensity SoC? I sure would like to find some forum where I could easily find people opinions about it.
The Amish won’t see their land confiscated because the own it. What they don’t own, but may use in communal rights can’t be taken, because it’s not theirs to begin with.
‘Real communism” means the government has “withered away”. Any place like that? No. What we think of as communist countries like the old USSR and Mao’s China, as well as N Korea, were, or are socialist dictatorships. The only real one left now is N Korea. The others are more strongman run socialist/capitalist.
Tech is extremely reliant upon land use politics, including things like eminent domain. How do so many large tech companies try to get buildings going? They do it by demanding taxpayers to bribe them to come. Tech products don't spring out of thin air.
One of the critical questions facing humanity is to what degree is what is called capitalism required to facilitate a thriving tech advancement. That is directly tied to the deteriorating global ecology. Ignoring that in favor of a mere stream of press releases from tech companies isn't the role of a thinking individual.
> Ignoring that in favor of a mere stream of press releases from tech > companies isn't the role of a thinking individual.
What is your point? That all readers should abandon this site? Or do you expect Anandtech to switch from covering the tech industry to covering economic and environmental justice? You know that's not going to happen.
> Tech is extremely reliant upon land use politics, including things like eminent domain.
No, there's no justification for dragging the Amish into this. You're just inventing a controversy as flame-bait. And when I call you on it, you always change the subject. That's practically a flat-out admission of guilt, right there.
I'd be happy just to talk about tech. But, trolls are gonna troll. Mods don't remove (a lot of) their posts, so we have to fact-check their disinformation.
''‘Real communism” means the government has “withered away”. Any place like that? No.'
According to a documentary I saw some years ago, there is a communistic community in an isolated part of China — a matriarchal minority.
The conflation of 'big/powerful/well-known' with 'it exists' is utterly common but it's not accurate. Plenty of communistic communities have existed. Some still exist. Given China's dismantling of various minorities' communities for things like dam projects, though... I don't know if that matriarchal community still exists.
As communism is about peaceful cooperating/sharing, it's not particularly surprising that such cultures fall to aggressive greed-oriented ones. The jailer's game ('prisoners' dilemma) appears to have one solution, when it comes to human temperament — unless geographical isolation protects the pacifists from the aggressors.
all too often the Right Wingnuts twist the Nazi's use of language to twist the Prog folks everywhere. Goebbel's knew exactly what he was doing. just like recent liars.
I fought the Communists, and I can tell you there is NO humanity in them -- any more than there were the Nazi's. Still, why don't we limit the conversation to the topic at hand? Let's get back a bit more respect for ourselves, each other, and our profession.
> I fought the Communists, and I can tell you there is NO humanity in them
If you're truly a soldier, then you're the least-trustworthy judge of the enemy's humanity. Soldiers are explicitly taught not to see such things. Your enemies will have been manipulated in similar ways. War is an exercise involving two groups of people taught not to see each other's humanity, in order for them to act more inhumanely towards each other.
> any more than there were the Nazi's.
We like to believe the Germans of the 1940's are different from us, but the story of ethnic cleansing and brutality has been repeated throughout human history. It helps to have some humility, if we have any hope of breaking the cycle.
That's not to justify or excuse any government or political system. I just think it's counterproductive to dehumanize their members or followers. Indeed, can you really even hold someone accountable for their misdeeds, if you deny their very humanity?
Hundreds of thousands of people are homeless around him every day, thousands die, but the dude is worried about how evil communists are. Most people are minimally educated, and most of that minimal education is propaganda.
I guess our friend there never noticed capitalism has no humanity in it either, people are homeless or poisoned every day *because* their well-being can't be quantified on a balance sheet, or worse, because harming their well-being can be quantified in the extra profit it allows. Hell, the Flint water crisis would have cost $80/day to avoid and yet 20000 children alone were exposed to dangerous levels of lead to save that money.
People just need to bury their head in the sand and assume they're on the right side of morality. We are good so they are bad.
> people are homeless or poisoned every day *because* their well-being can't be > quantified on a balance sheet, or worse, because harming their well-being can be > quantified in the extra profit it allows.
These are not problems capitalism was intended to solve. That's the role of government. It's government's job to put guard rails on what corporations can do, so that their interests don't run counter to that of the citizens. How well it's done varies, but the solution is to improve government's regulation of the economy, rather than to dispense with capitalism altogether.
> the Flint water crisis
That wasn't a corporate decision. It was the indebted state of Michigan trying to save money in a reckless and incompetent way. It has nothing to do with your previous point.
@mode_13h "These are not problems capitalism was intended to solve"
No but ignoring them is a act lacking humanity from all those "capitalist" individuals, making it particularly ironic for AnsyX to act worried about how "communists have no humanity". And do I really need to keep giving you examples of how capitalists have proven heartless again and again in that ultimate capitalist quest of maximizing profits?
Also I can make 2 points in a single comment. The state of Michigan is, to my knowledge, almost entirely capitalist both as population and leadership. Any action lacking humanity there is "capitalist lack of humanity".
Just trying to highlight how asinine is for someone to come here and say how they fought communists and they have no humanity. That kind of conviction and use of a very wide brush non-ironically or just to make a counterpoint is representative of low education and/or IQ.
> do I really need to keep giving you examples of how capitalists have proven heartless
No. It's been said that many CEOs have sociopathic tendencies. The actions of corporations, if performed by a person, would definitely earn that person the label of a sociopath. That's where regulations are supposed to enter the picture. It's somewhat necessarily so, because "values" are hard to quantify, and one corporation will always argue that if they don't seize every opportunity and cut every cost, their competitors would, anyhow.
> The state of Michigan is, to my knowledge, almost entirely capitalist both as population > and leadership. Any action lacking humanity there is "capitalist lack of humanity".
It exists in a capitalistic context, but it's not a for-profit entity. The goal of States is merely to balance their budgets, not make money. They face resource-management problems, just as states in communist countries would. Communism doesn't erase the fact that resources are finite, and even communist countries use money and have economic systems.
Just noting: Nazi = Socialist is common on the alt-right deploraboards. That way they can conclude that Dems = Liberals = Socialists = Communists = Nazis.
Nazi is short for Nationalsozialist = national socialist. The acronym was created after Sozi = Sozialist = socialist. It is a leftist tall tale that the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei wasn't a socialist party.
Taiwan is a democratic nation that isn't even recognized by 99% of other nations It's way closer to call it a government then a nation, since no one really recognizes it in an official manner
If you mean native Taiwanese, sure they are they're own race
But no one really means that, that's like Japan also has natives who are not genetically linked to Japanese as they themselves see them
Taiwanese are ethically Chinese They migrated there for a few hundred years until finally the Kuomintang lost and retreated there with like 2 million in tow
But hey, at least you got to call some random person on the internet a bigot over an issue that will likely spark WWIII
> Taiwan is a democratic nation that isn't even recognized by 99% of other nations
That's not because they think it lacks legitimacy. This is only because they fear China. And it's a fairly recent development, after China bribed and bullied those countries which had previously recognized it.
> that's like Japan also has natives who are not genetically linked to Japanese > as they themselves see them
You mean like the Japanese Royal Family, who are genetically Koreans?
Man, you have been freaking brain washed by your idiot US government. US has stolen stuff at least as much as China did. What happens now is the fact that China slowly overtakes US in economy and US can't do much about it other than to complain to China is stealing. No, China has worked its ass off the last decades for your fat ass to have everything in store at dumping prices.
99% of users don't care about the modding community. Now whether or not OEMs can keep up is another issue.
For the most part Mediateks have been going into budget phones where the manufacturer isn't going to spend money on upgrades. So let's wait and see if a flagship device does. If not, then yes, Mediatek has issues.
I know you wanted the first edgy post (all of which wasn't worth reading) but THANK GOD we've now got a Qualcomm competitor here. This new MediaTek SoC looks awesome, and I want it everywhere. In my cellphone, in a Windows ARM laptop, and in a portable gaming device. Go Taiwan :)
-- Excellent to see such a widely-updated SoC: new cores, big caches, LP5X, ISP leaps, AI. Hopefully, some trickle-down to cheaper SoCs. I didn't even know Bluetooth 5.3 was out yet.
-- Who wouldn't want TSMC N4? Really eager to see power numbers.
-- I like that they're chasing the A15, at least in nT. 1T is also a noticeable win, but such a big discrepancy between SPECint2006 and Geekbench 5.
-- even in the US, the lack of mmWave: good even. It's generally waste of weight + parts + silicon that'll get used maybe twice (2 times) in the five years of ownership, not mentioning ripping through *both* my battery and data cap once I realize I accidentally streamed a 4K video instead of 1080p.
The Cons:
-- Are these performance estimates with Mediatek's SoC benchmark cheating enabled, aka never-available-perf for user applications? Mediatek is notorious for this, "The one big difference here however is that there’s always been somewhat of a firewall in our coverage between what a device vendor did, and what chip vendors enabled them to do, and that’s where we come to MediaTek’s behavior over the last few years. In most past cases we always blamed the device vendors for cheating as it had been their mechanisms and initiative – we hadn’t had evidence of enablement by chipset vendors, at least until now." From: https://www.anandtech.com/show/15703/mobile-benchm...
-- When is Mediatek going to update their Android OS upgrade? Qualcomm recently announced all SD888 vendors would get +3 Android OS updates.
Mediatek committing to support at least 3 major Android OS updates would indeed be a major plus. Qualcomm also did so, but rather kicking and screaming.
I would actually like to see a statement about whether the SoC and the smartphone maker support at least 3 major Android OS updates or not in every review going forward. Planned obsolescence is one thing in $ 40 streaming sticks, it's a very different story for >= $ 800 devices like the ones this SoC setup will end up in.
Mediatek slide decks are always a laugh. "World's first", "World's best." But please AnandTech don't publish their bogus slides without getting out your sharpie. Almost every "graph" is visually exaggerated. For example the first graph labeled +35% actually has a bar chart with 54% increase in height. Make fun of their charts and try to keep them honest.
You made me go back and actually count the pixels in the first two graphs. The bar charts are proportionally the correct heights for the numbers they represent. You've just wasted 5 minutes of my time and made yourself look a fool. Next time check your facts before making wild claims.
Thanks for actually making MediaTek look more honest, which probably wasn't your aim.
Well, perhaps you should check again. Not only is it obvious that the first bar is not a 35% lift from the second as claimed on the slide, if you count pixels you'll find it's a 54% lift.
Perhaps you (like the chart maker) misunderstand that a 35% lift is not the same as a 35% drop. In this case the reciprocal of 1.54 is 0.65. The chart is simply wrong because either the chart maker is clueless or they are being deliberately misleading. A 35% lift is the same as a 26% drop. Clearly not what is depicted.
I tend to lean on deliberately misleading because MediaTek does this year after year.
You are wrong, the graph is correct - the first bar has 135% of the height of the 2nd bar, so it correctly shows the 35% performance uplift. I suggest you count the pixels rather than making things up.
Ah, I see the problem. I just looked at my screenshot that I used to make my original post. AnandTech changed the article! If someone can tell me how to post an image, I'll post the screenshot.
Some other sites show a very different set of slides (with different layout and colors) and in one of those the bars are wrong indeed. However I never saw those slides on AnandTech eventhough I read the article fairly early as there were only a few comments. So if the wrong slides went live, it must have been for a short time.
So, - I take a screenshot of bogus MediaTek charts at 2021-11-18 at 5.28.18 PM (PST). - I criticize AT for publishing bogus charts. - AT switches out the charts for new ones. Who knows when or why? - AT doesn't mention they did so in the article or in this thread. - AT lets this thread play out making me look the idiot. - I finally realize what happened by looking back at the charts and my screenshot. I prove that AT switched them by citing other articles sourcing the bogus charts to AT. - AT still makes no comment here.
Classy, Andrei, classy. And you were someone whom I respected by engaging in the forum comments. Well, lesson learned.
You can't assume they read all the comments. I agree they should've noted when they update graphs, but your best option for complaining about it is either on Twitter or maybe you could try the "Forum Feedback" in the main forums. Unfortunately, the "Contact" link in the page footer just goes to some business-oriented page for the parent company.
@Tomatotech, dividing the wrong way around is an easy mistake to make. I didn't need to be snarky and I apologize to you and other readers here. I wish I could edit out the snark. Mostly I wanted to ask the authors and editors to not publish junk charts from MediaTek (and others). Again, AnandTech, please don't publish this crap. Or better yet point out the glaring deception.
There is no deception from MediaTek. You are the one dividing the wrong way, 35% uplift means 1.35 times the performance and thus 1.35 times the height, which is exactly what the graph shows.
Damn, that entire camera isp section was about as useless as most camera numbers are in phones these days. "200mp, 18bit, 200 gigapixels-" shut up, your tech is wasted, why are you advertising it to people that should know better?
200MP capture pipeline also means that you can do 17 frames of 12MP for better HDR stacking and merging.
A more competent ISP benefits even lower resolution sensors.
Also simultaneous capture of multiple 4k streams is great as it will allow for smooth switching of cameras during capture. Currently only iPhone can do that.
Nice claims and nice specs, but we'll have to see where they end up and how they actually perform.
The D1000-1200 chips also had rather nice specs, but other than Nord 2 they were basically china exclusives.
On the A15 review's performance/energy chart D1200 basically got bodied by 865, and then there's apple doing 3 quarters of its middle core's performance on blizzards with half energy.
Huawei cranked Kirin 9000 out with Arm Holdings IP for the CPU/GPU and had them actually trashing everything android while going at apple for GPU. A year later this thing calls itself 9000 again, lets see if it performs.
That's definitely not how it works. The pipeline is 9GPix/s. It has nothing to do with the maximum resolution. That 320MP is likely not zero-lag and lacking a lot of processing. That's why triple camera only have less than 1/3 the total pixel counts.
On another note, Samsung's fabs better have an answer for this N4 node from TSMC soon, or Qualcomm might rethink their choice of foundry quite quickly. Plus, NVIDIA isn't too pleased with the efficiency (lack thereof) of Samsung's N8 process. But for now, both QC and NVIDIA might be stuck with Samsung, as TSMC seems to be quite booked for now, and not just on their advanced EUV (N5, N4) nodes.
Excluding the questionable SMIC offerings, Samsung actually proposes the best performance per dollar lithography. And they deliver too.
TSMC is pricey stuff. Part of that is the stable revenue stream that came from AMD and the consoles, allowing them to expand their R&D budget.
The truth is, the Kirin 9000 doesn't matter, and neither does the Dimensity 9000. They hardly ever make any supplies of it. I'd rather a "Good SoC" working on my phone, rather than a "Great SoC" which is almost vaporware/paper-launch.
Vaporware my ass, here writing to you from a Mate 40 running on a Kirin 9000E. People here in EU are not brainwashed to get our phones straight from carriers, we can actually think for ourselves and buy from stores which doesn't limit your options to a couple of phone models only.
A little sad to see the level of comments have degraded on Anandtech. It hasn't always been good, but at least you used to get one or two decent signal that make it good enough.
Surprised by the improvement on WiFi and 5G. But remains to be seen how good it is in RL.
Android phones are quite good, SoC excepted. Hopefully this is what is needed to bring them much closer to Apple. N4 so early, and Armv9, and Mali10 (next gen) and all the goodies. Yum.
How so? All scores indicate Apple still has a 30% lead given the slides we’re comparing against X1 SoC; a 10% advantage against an X1 still means a 30% deficit against an A15
Referring to the all-core performance score, I presume.
Note how the slide on "Single Core" performance only references "Android Flagship", whereas the "Multi Core" slide references that in addition to "2020 Flagship" and "2021 Flagship".
This has to go into a laptop chip to compete with the 8cx. We need more high-performance ARM chips without having to get locked into Apple's MacBooks only.
I'll buy Mediatek when there's better support for custom ROM's and open source communities. Never trust hardware manufacturers to update their software.
very interested with this SoC. thankfully my country are pretty competitive regarding smartphone market, so I'll expect any device with Dimensity 9000 SoC will be sold at around ~500US$ ballpark, which is cheap compared to what similarly specced Qualcomm device.
I know that Mediatek has such terrible support and openness toward modding communities, but I'm hopeful with how Google has designed Android 12 as very modular, also how Linux kernel 5.10 has support GKI, I'm very positive it'll have good—if not mediocre aftermarket support from the modding communities.
I would love to see a SoC like this in a ChromeBook. I have an Asus Flip C101 using an OP1/Rockchip 3399 (2xA72, 4x A53), which is fantastic for the last 6 years but getting a bit old and runs out of updates from Aug 23. Very few ChromeBooks with decent ARM options.
As an aside, really important that Mali graphics continues to survive under ARM/Softbank, as the potential future Nvidia buyout would wipe this out and replace it with one of their more expensive GPU options.
> really important that Mali graphics continues to survive under ARM/Softbank, > as the potential future Nvidia buyout would wipe this out
That would be interesting if regulators made them sell or spinoff the GPU division. Sadly, if we look at Imagination's poor fortunes, the prospects for a spinoff wouldn't look great.
>>in terms of per-core performance one new G710 core is roughly equivalent to two G78 cores<< Is it really true? When Mali-G710 was presented by ARM, they promised +20% gaming performance VS vs Mali-G78.
I think it was meant for comparison with G78 chips made on same process node. Samsung 5nm is already said to be worse than TSMC 5nm, I’d imagine 4nm makes the gap bigger.
While I have my reservations with the amount of benefit that can come from node (pretty sure it’s not going to be 67% better than Samsung node), it’s to be assumed that marketing claims will be a little more than the actual
The two statements that you take as contradicting one another are actually consistent - they refer to different matters. For an implementation of the G710 on the same silicon process as the predecessor G78 (TSMC N5) if power is held constant the Mali-G710 will offer a 20% performance improvement. However, the structure of the Mali cores change with the G710. You are only going to need roughly half of the number of cores to achieve equivalent performance to the earlier generation G78. The cores of the G710 are faster, bigger and more power hungry but in a sensible GPU configuration in an ARM SoC they offer a 20% energy efficiency boost in an ISO Process implementation.
If the Dimensity 9000 is anything to go by it looks like ARM premium SoC manufacturers will be looking for big gains in GPU performance (much more than 20%) and they will be willing to pay a power consumption price to get it. So, with ARM SoCs in flagship Android phones already operating at the power limit for such devices power savings will have to be made elsewhere if sustainable performance is to see solid gains in 2022 phones.
I will not belive until they be friendly with open-source community as GNU GPL v2. Look at Qualcomm, they're still superior, of course their hardware decoder like AV1 Is I think still behind (update on me for this) but they can still whip your butt because of their soon snapdragon cpu. This is just talking of new architecture cpu meanwhile does not represent average software update, and plus it's a pain in the arse to mod a MediaTek device. And that's not funny at all. Because devices tend to go old, We need a source code so our devices would last long.
Change your policy about the source code to getting open then we're talking (all android chipset in mtk family must be open)
I think it's the nomenclature ARM is using, though. It's reasonable to have a distinct term for cache that's shared among all the CPU cores *and* accelerator blocks, so I don't mind them not simply calling it L3 or LLC.
Too many Qualcomm employee attacking a chinese city taipei company MediaTek. Biggest excuse is communism stole tech. While capitalism stole Hawaii, California, New Mexico, and the whole USA. And yeah, happy thanksgiving.. where people saved you from your winter deaths only to be killed by you after. Stupid white men who want to rape 13 year old Pocahontas.
Not to mention driver cheats. The part does look like the ARM presentation's '22 reference high end implementation and good on paper so hopefully it spurs more competition and innovation. HBM stacks on phones maybe? Split, mammoth sized CPU and GPU chiplets?
Cost is probably a big issue with both of those. We're likely to see stacked memory in laptops first (like what Apple did), before it ever reaches phones. I doubt if HBM can be power-efficient enough, which is probably why Apple went with LPDDR5, in the M1 Pro and Max.
And a dedicated GPU chiplet in phones? Doesn't seem likely. Maybe if yields of even newer processes are poor.
If i remember anandtech was quite conservative about hyping up next gen (2021) arm designs. While this chip loks like a quite staggering step up.
Could it be thanks to 4nm being massivelly better than 5nm In terms of efficiency ? A 6% shrink sucks bad on the other hand. Should be 43% by marketing numbers. No 20B transistor phone coming up this year.
Yeah & also there has a new rumors for the upcoming subflagship Dimensity 7000 to be built from 5nm TSMC node & will be more powerful than the snapdragon 870
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Silver5urfer - Thursday, November 18, 2021 - link
MediaTek is the worst offender in GNU GPL v2 Linux Kernel guidelines, their junk always ends up being abandoned by OEM and Modding community as well. Until they can beat CAF of Qcomm, they are junk.All that is just the new ARM IP talk simply getting it first to market that's it makes sense since it's a Taiwanese corporation so TSMC is allowing them on this first dibs ?, and the worst part of these ARM processors including Apple is omega AI capabilities this that and woahh but what do they provide for end user ? Nothing. Android barely has any APIs that allow the developers to do something, mostly these AI stuff is used for ISP and Camera and other camera gimmickry. Once Apple launches their Auto Hash scanning on their platform everyone will soon follow, Google loves to ape Apple so they will be first irrespective of how hard it is on Android due to Play Services and all the different vendors.
Moomoo123 - Thursday, November 18, 2021 - link
Yea... basically a garbage CPU manufactured with stolen Intellectual Property/Tech from a garbage communist country. Wait for the Qualcomm's lol.anonomouse - Thursday, November 18, 2021 - link
just a small note for your bigotry: this company is Taiwanese. not communist. not sure what is supposed to be "stolen" here either.R0H1T - Thursday, November 18, 2021 - link
You hear that sound, no? Let's try it again, slowly ~ Whoooosh 👍logoffon - Thursday, November 18, 2021 - link
I can't hear that either.In seriousness, I don't think that's how you make fun of people who don't get a joke.
Unashamed_unoriginal_username_x86 - Thursday, November 18, 2021 - link
How do you know it's a joke? If I said something stupid and edgy too, would you come to my defense as well?nandnandnand - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
Sounds like a crash landing to me.Spunjji - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
Awfully bold of you to assume that was a jokeKangal - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
I agree with the others, the comment section here has derailed and turned into poo.There is A LOT here to commend MediaTek for.
But they have five major criticisms that they need addressing for them to match Qualcomm, let alone exceed Apple.
1- Make sure this is not another vaporware or paper-launch. Pump these chips out. We want to see your FLAGSHIP product out there and in tens-of-millions units in use by consumers.
2- Quit that nonsense about cheating in graphs, benchmarks, and false showings. It doesn't lift you up, it drags everybody down.
3- Provide drivers, source-code, documentation, and be very GPLv2 friendly. Support third-party developers, give bootloader unlock codes, and generally make consumers happy.
4- Officially announce and support their chipset for long-term (min x4 AndroidOS Platforms/3+ years update)
5- Focus on refining your product. Be willing to lose marketing points, or even the performance crown if it means having a better device for users/higher efficiency and very little throttling. Work on those drivers, Adreno is killing it out there compared to Mali.
Hopefully you'll swing by the right direction. We will be watching, and hoping you do. Best of luck 👍
Dizoja86 - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
If he thinks China is communist because the political party has it in the name, he probably also genuinely believes that the Nazi's were socialists.Wereweeb - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
Don't you know that billionaires are communist? Karl Marx himself was one. True facts hidden by the liberal media.Peter2k - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
I wonder if Marxism had anything to do with Karl Marx/s
Hope it was a joke that didn't land well
Oxford Guy - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
No billionaire is highly communistic unless said person is delusional. They are fundamentally incompatible.amosbatto - Monday, December 20, 2021 - link
Hogwash! Karl Marx only had an estate worth £250 when he died, and after he moved to London, he basically depended on Fredrich Engels to keep his family from starving. 4 of Marx's 7 children died in childhood, and some people think that Marx's poverty may have been one of the contributing factors for the deaths of his children. Engels' estate when he died was worth £25,265, which is about $3.5 million in today's dollars.Peter2k - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
I always found it funny that China is the most runaway capitalist system on the planet, including money makes you rightThough to be fair, the Party itself and the whole government is run the way communism has always led to
Corruption and infighting, while blaming foreign agents for every shortcoming
FunBunny2 - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
"I always found it funny that China is the most runaway capitalist system on the planet, including money makes you right"China does what any slave wage (or just, slave) economy has done since Mesopotamia: export to large liberal economies, since those are the only ones that can absorb output.
Tomatotech - Saturday, November 20, 2021 - link
Oh really? Can you name 3 large liberal economies that existed at any point between AD1800 and Mesopotamian times? Or even a single one?Go on, I’m here waiting all day.
melgross - Monday, November 22, 2021 - link
Actually, wages in China have been rising by about 20% a year. So much so that manufacturers are moving to Vietnam and other lower wage countries. It now costs almost as much to manufacture many products there as it does here.mode_13h - Saturday, November 20, 2021 - link
> money makes you rightI'm sure there are numerous billionaires languishing in Chinese prisons who would disagree with that characterization. Money clearly follows from power, in present-day China -- not the other way around.
melgross - Monday, November 22, 2021 - link
China is neither capitalist or socialist at this time. It’s some odd combination of both. It’s closer to what the Japanese were forty years ago.mode_13h - Tuesday, November 23, 2021 - link
> It’s closer to what the Japanese were forty years ago.The exception I take with this is that Japan's system of government is decidedly democratic and somewhat decentralized. In China, there's too much concentration of power, leaving no obvious pathway towards reform.
TheinsanegamerN - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
China isnt communist just like soviet russia wasnt communist, because *Real Communism has never been tried, right?Oxford Guy - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
Howard Zinn’s description of the Arawak people is an example of actual communism. The Amish are a close approximation also. Many societies have been strongly communistic throughout history. They are generally not belligerent and die out. The Arawaks were slaughtered by aggressive Europeans and the Amish will eventually find their land confiscated as US population expands and the resulting sprawl overtakes what’s left of their area.The more important dichotomy seems to be aggressive expansionism versus peaceful inwardness — what the expansionists call backwardness.
mode_13h - Saturday, November 20, 2021 - link
> the Amish will eventually find their land confiscated as US population> expands and the resulting sprawl overtakes what’s left of their area.
The Amish have a very high birth rate, for fairly obvious reasons. I think they're probably "sprawling" much faster than the cities around them. And since they have legal ownership of their land, it's not clear how it would be "confiscated".
Oxford Guy - Saturday, November 20, 2021 - link
Law changes with convenience and I suppose you’ve not heard of eminent domain.mode_13h - Sunday, November 21, 2021 - link
> I suppose you’ve not heard of eminent domain.Of course I have. It's no longer used much, in the US. Furthermore, it's subject to legal challenge and has to withstand the test of an overwhelming public interest.
Do you even live in the USA? It seems like you don't know as much about it as you think.
mode_13h - Sunday, November 21, 2021 - link
That's not to imply that plenty of people living here don't know even less about it. However, it helps to live in a place, if you're to really understand how such things as its legal system function.Oxford Guy - Sunday, November 21, 2021 - link
‘It's no longer used much, in the US.’Haha.
melgross - Monday, November 22, 2021 - link
It’s very rare. And it can. E fought in court. It’s hard to see any way their property could be taken by the state using it.Oxford Guy - Monday, November 22, 2021 - link
‘It’s very rare. And it can. E fought in court. It’s hard to see any way their property could be taken by the state using it.’Rarity is irrelevant. It only takes one success.
Have a chat with the people who have lost in court, such as the guy who tried to use eminent domain to take justice Breyer’s huge property. Yeah, one loses in court when one takes on a Supreme Court justice.
mode_13h - Tuesday, November 23, 2021 - link
> Rarity is irrelevant.It's not when you're clearly implying it will be used to dispossess many thousands of their land.
Sure, you can pick through wikipedia and find rare exceptions, but the general rule actually counts for something. The Supreme Court case you reference was lost because it was badly argued, not because it was wrong in principle.
The reason there's not much use of eminent domain, and what prompted the US Federal Government to follow that ruling by instituting an explicit policy only to use it for matters of public use & with just compensation is that it's politically unpopular. If some people start getting their property taken unjustly, it creates a panic among others that they could also be on the receiving end of such actions. That's why it's naturally self-limiting and was previously used mainly against the politically disenfranchised.
I get that you're anti-American. I don't even take issue with that. I do take issue with misrepresentations and distortions.
Oxford Guy - Tuesday, November 23, 2021 - link
'I get that you're anti-American.'This is why I informed you that I don't read your posts anymore. I just jump to the expected ad hom at the end.
This forum would be improved with your account removed.
mode_13h - Wednesday, November 24, 2021 - link
> This forum would be improved with your account removed.Obviously, so that you could spread your FUD and disinformation, virtually unchallenged. Don't like it? Find somewhere else to haunt.
The main takeaway I get from your posts is that you're almost as lazy as you are cynical. You think you can brush away logic, reason, sound argumentation, and facts with unsubstantiated allegations of fallacies, "ad hom's", and a few lazy insults of your own. Nobody is buying it.
Rest assured that as long as you keep trolling and spreading disinformation on here, I intend to counter it.
Oxford Guy - Wednesday, November 24, 2021 - link
Your posts are far too consistent in terms of the bad faith pattern of using ad hominem as a crutch. People who are able and willing to discuss and debate in a factual manner are beneficial. Those who rely upon trickery aren’t.I expect that you’ll criticize me again in your response to these posts but the tu quoque fallacy (and/or conventional ad hom) won’t erase your clear track record of bad-faith/corrupt argumentation in which the character of the poster becomes the subject rather than the actual subject in contention. That goes hand-in-hand with your 'I imagine'/'I'm guessing" tactic of stuffing words into mouths.
There is not a single poster who frequents this forum who abuses ad hom as frequently as you do, not even close. You and anyone else are free to dislike the assertions I made and challenge the information I post, so long as it’s done without personal attack.
You have not learned that lesson, despite me highlighting the importance of good-faith discourse many times. Agreeing me some things I write, tepidly or fully, does not erase the ad hom duplicity. I stooped to that level briefly when I became exasperated (the AI comment) but I’m not going to be drawn into that again. Stick to the issues or put a cork in it.
mode_13h - Wednesday, November 24, 2021 - link
> Your posts are far too consistent in terms of the bad faith patternSame. Answering your bad-faith posts gets so tiresome that I sometimes lessen the tedium by replying in kind.
And you're one to talk about crutches.
> People who are able and willing to discuss and debate in a factual manner are beneficial.
> Those who rely upon trickery aren’t.
Agreed.
> your clear track record of bad-faith/corrupt argumentation
Nobody appointed you as an adjudicator of our exchanges, and you're hardly impartial. You declare fallacies as if a self-evident and irrefutable fact, rather than the biased opinion of a counter-party. Your accusations are unsubstantiated, almost without exception. If you want a claim to stick, you need to support it.
> That goes hand-in-hand with your 'I imagine'/'I'm guessing" tactic of stuffing words into mouths.
It's a rhetorical form of conjecture. It's a presumption I'm proffering with sufficient qualification that it's not to be taken as established fact, and is indeed open to challenge. This is a chat forum. I'm not going to buttress every claim with citations, especially those garnering no objections. And I cannot know, a priori, to which someone might object.
> Agreeing me some things I write, tepidly or fully, does not erase the ad hom duplicity.
Get over yourself, guy. I don't care what some internet rando thinks about me, much less one who spouts as much nonsense and trolls as much as you do.
Do what you want, but I take each post on its merits (or lack thereof).
> Stick to the issues or put a cork in it.
How about you not abruptly try to hijack these forums for your own agenda? So long as there are willing participants, it's fine if conversation sometimes naturally meanders. But it's obvious and jarring, when you inject a new subject apropos of absolutely nothing, that you're really not participating in these forums entirely in good faith. The purpose of these forums is to discuss the subject matter of the articles & closely-related topics. That's why most of us are here.
BTW, I think you'll find that nearly all of the friction between us also happens in off-topic tangents. In fact, if you'd stay more on-topic, I think you'd encounter much less friction between yourself and everyone else.
Thud2 - Thursday, November 25, 2021 - link
So, what do you guys think of that new Mediatek Dimensity SoC? I sure would like to find some forum where I could easily find people opinions about it.melgross - Monday, November 22, 2021 - link
The Amish won’t see their land confiscated because the own it. What they don’t own, but may use in communal rights can’t be taken, because it’s not theirs to begin with.Oxford Guy - Monday, November 22, 2021 - link
Eminent domain exists, has been used, can be used again.melgross - Monday, November 22, 2021 - link
‘Real communism” means the government has “withered away”. Any place like that? No. What we think of as communist countries like the old USSR and Mao’s China, as well as N Korea, were, or are socialist dictatorships. The only real one left now is N Korea. The others are more strongman run socialist/capitalist.mode_13h - Tuesday, November 23, 2021 - link
> ‘Real communism” means the government has “withered away”.Huh? Source?
Meteor2 - Tuesday, November 23, 2021 - link
You folk know this is a tech site, right?Oxford Guy - Tuesday, November 23, 2021 - link
Tech is extremely reliant upon land use politics, including things like eminent domain. How do so many large tech companies try to get buildings going? They do it by demanding taxpayers to bribe them to come. Tech products don't spring out of thin air.Oxford Guy - Tuesday, November 23, 2021 - link
One of the critical questions facing humanity is to what degree is what is called capitalism required to facilitate a thriving tech advancement. That is directly tied to the deteriorating global ecology. Ignoring that in favor of a mere stream of press releases from tech companies isn't the role of a thinking individual.mode_13h - Wednesday, November 24, 2021 - link
> Ignoring that in favor of a mere stream of press releases from tech> companies isn't the role of a thinking individual.
What is your point? That all readers should abandon this site? Or do you expect Anandtech to switch from covering the tech industry to covering economic and environmental justice? You know that's not going to happen.
mode_13h - Wednesday, November 24, 2021 - link
> Tech is extremely reliant upon land use politics, including things like eminent domain.No, there's no justification for dragging the Amish into this. You're just inventing a controversy as flame-bait. And when I call you on it, you always change the subject. That's practically a flat-out admission of guilt, right there.
mode_13h - Wednesday, November 24, 2021 - link
> You folk know this is a tech site, right?I'd be happy just to talk about tech. But, trolls are gonna troll. Mods don't remove (a lot of) their posts, so we have to fact-check their disinformation.
Welcome to the internet.
Oxford Guy - Tuesday, November 23, 2021 - link
''‘Real communism” means the government has “withered away”. Any place like that? No.'According to a documentary I saw some years ago, there is a communistic community in an isolated part of China — a matriarchal minority.
The conflation of 'big/powerful/well-known' with 'it exists' is utterly common but it's not accurate. Plenty of communistic communities have existed. Some still exist. Given China's dismantling of various minorities' communities for things like dam projects, though... I don't know if that matriarchal community still exists.
As communism is about peaceful cooperating/sharing, it's not particularly surprising that such cultures fall to aggressive greed-oriented ones. The jailer's game ('prisoners' dilemma) appears to have one solution, when it comes to human temperament — unless geographical isolation protects the pacifists from the aggressors.
FunBunny2 - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
"believes that the Nazi's were socialists"all too often the Right Wingnuts twist the Nazi's use of language to twist the Prog folks everywhere. Goebbel's knew exactly what he was doing. just like recent liars.
AnsyX - Saturday, November 20, 2021 - link
I fought the Communists, and I can tell you there is NO humanity in them -- any more than there were the Nazi's. Still, why don't we limit the conversation to the topic at hand? Let's get back a bit more respect for ourselves, each other, and our profession.mode_13h - Sunday, November 21, 2021 - link
> I fought the Communists, and I can tell you there is NO humanity in themIf you're truly a soldier, then you're the least-trustworthy judge of the enemy's humanity. Soldiers are explicitly taught not to see such things. Your enemies will have been manipulated in similar ways. War is an exercise involving two groups of people taught not to see each other's humanity, in order for them to act more inhumanely towards each other.
> any more than there were the Nazi's.
We like to believe the Germans of the 1940's are different from us, but the story of ethnic cleansing and brutality has been repeated throughout human history. It helps to have some humility, if we have any hope of breaking the cycle.
That's not to justify or excuse any government or political system. I just think it's counterproductive to dehumanize their members or followers. Indeed, can you really even hold someone accountable for their misdeeds, if you deny their very humanity?
at_clucks - Sunday, November 21, 2021 - link
Hundreds of thousands of people are homeless around him every day, thousands die, but the dude is worried about how evil communists are. Most people are minimally educated, and most of that minimal education is propaganda.I guess our friend there never noticed capitalism has no humanity in it either, people are homeless or poisoned every day *because* their well-being can't be quantified on a balance sheet, or worse, because harming their well-being can be quantified in the extra profit it allows. Hell, the Flint water crisis would have cost $80/day to avoid and yet 20000 children alone were exposed to dangerous levels of lead to save that money.
People just need to bury their head in the sand and assume they're on the right side of morality. We are good so they are bad.
mode_13h - Monday, November 22, 2021 - link
> people are homeless or poisoned every day *because* their well-being can't be> quantified on a balance sheet, or worse, because harming their well-being can be
> quantified in the extra profit it allows.
These are not problems capitalism was intended to solve. That's the role of government. It's government's job to put guard rails on what corporations can do, so that their interests don't run counter to that of the citizens. How well it's done varies, but the solution is to improve government's regulation of the economy, rather than to dispense with capitalism altogether.
> the Flint water crisis
That wasn't a corporate decision. It was the indebted state of Michigan trying to save money in a reckless and incompetent way. It has nothing to do with your previous point.
at_clucks - Wednesday, November 24, 2021 - link
@mode_13h "These are not problems capitalism was intended to solve"No but ignoring them is a act lacking humanity from all those "capitalist" individuals, making it particularly ironic for AnsyX to act worried about how "communists have no humanity". And do I really need to keep giving you examples of how capitalists have proven heartless again and again in that ultimate capitalist quest of maximizing profits?
Also I can make 2 points in a single comment. The state of Michigan is, to my knowledge, almost entirely capitalist both as population and leadership. Any action lacking humanity there is "capitalist lack of humanity".
Just trying to highlight how asinine is for someone to come here and say how they fought communists and they have no humanity. That kind of conviction and use of a very wide brush non-ironically or just to make a counterpoint is representative of low education and/or IQ.
mode_13h - Thursday, November 25, 2021 - link
> do I really need to keep giving you examples of how capitalists have proven heartlessNo. It's been said that many CEOs have sociopathic tendencies. The actions of corporations, if performed by a person, would definitely earn that person the label of a sociopath. That's where regulations are supposed to enter the picture. It's somewhat necessarily so, because "values" are hard to quantify, and one corporation will always argue that if they don't seize every opportunity and cut every cost, their competitors would, anyhow.
> The state of Michigan is, to my knowledge, almost entirely capitalist both as population
> and leadership. Any action lacking humanity there is "capitalist lack of humanity".
It exists in a capitalistic context, but it's not a for-profit entity. The goal of States is merely to balance their budgets, not make money. They face resource-management problems, just as states in communist countries would. Communism doesn't erase the fact that resources are finite, and even communist countries use money and have economic systems.
Arbie - Saturday, November 20, 2021 - link
Just noting: Nazi = Socialist is common on the alt-right deploraboards. That way they can conclude that Dems = Liberals = Socialists = Communists = Nazis.smalM - Monday, November 22, 2021 - link
Nazi is short for Nationalsozialist = national socialist. The acronym was created after Sozi = Sozialist = socialist.It is a leftist tall tale that the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei wasn't a socialist party.
melgross - Monday, November 22, 2021 - link
The Nazi’s were socialists. Hitler said so in his own writings. If you knew anything about their economy, you would know that.imoc - Wednesday, December 8, 2021 - link
LOL true. It's almost 2022 and people still think China is communist.TheinsanegamerN - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
Taiwanese is a race, not a type of government, you bigot.Peter2k - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
Taiwan is a democratic nation that isn't even recognized by 99% of other nationsIt's way closer to call it a government then a nation, since no one really recognizes it in an official manner
If you mean native Taiwanese, sure they are they're own race
But no one really means that, that's like Japan also has natives who are not genetically linked to Japanese as they themselves see them
Taiwanese are ethically Chinese
They migrated there for a few hundred years until finally the Kuomintang lost and retreated there with like 2 million in tow
But hey, at least you got to call some random person on the internet a bigot over an issue that will likely spark WWIII
Alistair - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
There's no such thing as a "race". Taiwan is a country and Taiwanese is a nationality. Period. A proud and free country.Oxford Guy - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
The WTA refers to Taiwanese players as representing Chinese Taipei.mode_13h - Saturday, November 20, 2021 - link
> Taiwan is a democratic nation that isn't even recognized by 99% of other nationsThat's not because they think it lacks legitimacy. This is only because they fear China. And it's a fairly recent development, after China bribed and bullied those countries which had previously recognized it.
> that's like Japan also has natives who are not genetically linked to Japanese
> as they themselves see them
You mean like the Japanese Royal Family, who are genetically Koreans?
iphonebestgamephone - Saturday, November 20, 2021 - link
Pretty sure he means the ainuMonty1401 - Monday, November 22, 2021 - link
I just came here to read about phone tech 🤓Oxford Guy - Monday, November 22, 2021 - link
Phone tech is produced on Jupiter and shipped here by space storks.mode_13h - Saturday, November 20, 2021 - link
> Taiwanese is a raceEthnic breakdown of Taiwan, according to Wikipedia:
>95% Han Taiwanese
—70% Hoklo
—14% Hakka
—14% Waishengren
2% Indigenous
> not a type of government
It is simply "a government", not "a type of government".
sonny73n - Monday, November 22, 2021 - link
Obviously he's an "exceptional" who doesn't even know where Taiwan is on the map.defaultluser - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
Wait for Qualcomm? when its going to still be stuck on Samsung?Being smaller means you can sneak these in on the same node as Apple!
tech_guru30 - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
Garbage comment from a racist a**h*le. Comments like this has nothing to with technology.yeeeeman - Thursday, December 23, 2021 - link
Man, you have been freaking brain washed by your idiot US government.US has stolen stuff at least as much as China did.
What happens now is the fact that China slowly overtakes US in economy and US can't do much about it other than to complain to China is stealing. No, China has worked its ass off the last decades for your fat ass to have everything in store at dumping prices.
wicketr - Thursday, November 18, 2021 - link
99% of users don't care about the modding community. Now whether or not OEMs can keep up is another issue.For the most part Mediateks have been going into budget phones where the manufacturer isn't going to spend money on upgrades. So let's wait and see if a flagship device does. If not, then yes, Mediatek has issues.
Alistair - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
I know you wanted the first edgy post (all of which wasn't worth reading) but THANK GOD we've now got a Qualcomm competitor here. This new MediaTek SoC looks awesome, and I want it everywhere. In my cellphone, in a Windows ARM laptop, and in a portable gaming device. Go Taiwan :)iphonebestgamephone - Saturday, November 20, 2021 - link
You can emulate switch on the arm gamihn device better than x86, thats all there is for arm gaming for modern games.Spunjji - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
It's always sad when your waffle gets in place as the first commentmode_13h - Saturday, November 20, 2021 - link
> Android barely has any APIs that allow the developers to do somethingReally? Have you heard of NNAPI?
caribbeanblue - Tuesday, November 30, 2021 - link
This is an extremely idiotic comment.ikjadoon - Thursday, November 18, 2021 - link
The pros:-- Excellent to see such a widely-updated SoC: new cores, big caches, LP5X, ISP leaps, AI. Hopefully, some trickle-down to cheaper SoCs. I didn't even know Bluetooth 5.3 was out yet.
-- Who wouldn't want TSMC N4? Really eager to see power numbers.
-- I like that they're chasing the A15, at least in nT. 1T is also a noticeable win, but such a big discrepancy between SPECint2006 and Geekbench 5.
-- even in the US, the lack of mmWave: good even. It's generally waste of weight + parts + silicon that'll get used maybe twice (2 times) in the five years of ownership, not mentioning ripping through *both* my battery and data cap once I realize I accidentally streamed a 4K video instead of 1080p.
The Cons:
-- Are these performance estimates with Mediatek's SoC benchmark cheating enabled, aka never-available-perf for user applications? Mediatek is notorious for this, "The one big difference here however is that there’s always been somewhat of a firewall in our coverage between what a device vendor did, and what chip vendors enabled them to do, and that’s where we come to MediaTek’s behavior over the last few years. In most past cases we always blamed the device vendors for cheating as it had been their mechanisms and initiative – we hadn’t had evidence of enablement by chipset vendors, at least until now." From: https://www.anandtech.com/show/15703/mobile-benchm...
-- When is Mediatek going to update their Android OS upgrade? Qualcomm recently announced all SD888 vendors would get +3 Android OS updates.
eastcoast_pete - Thursday, November 18, 2021 - link
Mediatek committing to support at least 3 major Android OS updates would indeed be a major plus. Qualcomm also did so, but rather kicking and screaming.I would actually like to see a statement about whether the SoC and the smartphone maker support at least 3 major Android OS updates or not in every review going forward. Planned obsolescence is one thing in $ 40 streaming sticks, it's a very different story for >= $ 800 devices like the ones this SoC setup will end up in.
nandnandnand - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
Bluetooth 5.2 is the big one.syxbit - Thursday, November 18, 2021 - link
>>The GPU side, the chip likely will be the only design for 2022 with a large Mali GPUSurely the Tensor 2 will be another large Mali ?
arayoflight - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
Pretty sure Google will use the AMD IP from S.LSI for Tensor 2.dotjaz - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
Surely you know Google will use whatever Samsung is using.UNLK A6 - Thursday, November 18, 2021 - link
Mediatek slide decks are always a laugh. "World's first", "World's best." But please AnandTech don't publish their bogus slides without getting out your sharpie. Almost every "graph" is visually exaggerated. For example the first graph labeled +35% actually has a bar chart with 54% increase in height. Make fun of their charts and try to keep them honest.Tomatotech - Saturday, November 20, 2021 - link
You made me go back and actually count the pixels in the first two graphs. The bar charts are proportionally the correct heights for the numbers they represent. You've just wasted 5 minutes of my time and made yourself look a fool. Next time check your facts before making wild claims.Thanks for actually making MediaTek look more honest, which probably wasn't your aim.
mode_13h - Sunday, November 21, 2021 - link
> You've just wasted 5 minutes of my timeThanks for that. I was inclined to believe the previous poster.
UNLK A6 - Sunday, November 21, 2021 - link
See my comments below for clarity on who to believe.UNLK A6 - Sunday, November 21, 2021 - link
Well, perhaps you should check again. Not only is it obvious that the first bar is not a 35% lift from the second as claimed on the slide, if you count pixels you'll find it's a 54% lift.Perhaps you (like the chart maker) misunderstand that a 35% lift is not the same as a 35% drop. In this case the reciprocal of 1.54 is 0.65. The chart is simply wrong because either the chart maker is clueless or they are being deliberately misleading. A 35% lift is the same as a 26% drop. Clearly not what is depicted.
I tend to lean on deliberately misleading because MediaTek does this year after year.
mode_13h - Monday, November 22, 2021 - link
Thanks for the follow-up.Wilco1 - Tuesday, November 23, 2021 - link
You are wrong, the graph is correct - the first bar has 135% of the height of the 2nd bar, so it correctly shows the 35% performance uplift. I suggest you count the pixels rather than making things up.UNLK A6 - Tuesday, November 23, 2021 - link
Ah, I see the problem. I just looked at my screenshot that I used to make my original post. AnandTech changed the article! If someone can tell me how to post an image, I'll post the screenshot.UNLK A6 - Tuesday, November 23, 2021 - link
To see the original slides, they're still at 9to5google.com. Search for "Dimensity 9000".UNLK A6 - Tuesday, November 23, 2021 - link
...And notice they credit AnandTech for those images. What the heck AnandTech, how about a remark someplace that you changed the article!Wilco1 - Thursday, November 25, 2021 - link
Some other sites show a very different set of slides (with different layout and colors) and in one of those the bars are wrong indeed. However I never saw those slides on AnandTech eventhough I read the article fairly early as there were only a few comments. So if the wrong slides went live, it must have been for a short time.UNLK A6 - Friday, November 26, 2021 - link
So,- I take a screenshot of bogus MediaTek charts at 2021-11-18 at 5.28.18 PM (PST).
- I criticize AT for publishing bogus charts.
- AT switches out the charts for new ones. Who knows when or why?
- AT doesn't mention they did so in the article or in this thread.
- AT lets this thread play out making me look the idiot.
- I finally realize what happened by looking back at the charts and my screenshot. I prove that AT switched them by citing other articles sourcing the bogus charts to AT.
- AT still makes no comment here.
Classy, Andrei, classy. And you were someone whom I respected by engaging in the forum comments. Well, lesson learned.
mode_13h - Saturday, November 27, 2021 - link
> - AT still makes no comment here.You can't assume they read all the comments. I agree they should've noted when they update graphs, but your best option for complaining about it is either on Twitter or maybe you could try the "Forum Feedback" in the main forums. Unfortunately, the "Contact" link in the page footer just goes to some business-oriented page for the parent company.
UNLK A6 - Saturday, November 27, 2021 - link
Thanks for the thoughtful advice. I appreciate it.UNLK A6 - Sunday, November 21, 2021 - link
Oh, and you probably also vindicated MediaTek's strategy to mislead, which probably wasn't your aim.UNLK A6 - Sunday, November 21, 2021 - link
@Tomatotech, dividing the wrong way around is an easy mistake to make. I didn't need to be snarky and I apologize to you and other readers here. I wish I could edit out the snark. Mostly I wanted to ask the authors and editors to not publish junk charts from MediaTek (and others). Again, AnandTech, please don't publish this crap. Or better yet point out the glaring deception.Wilco1 - Tuesday, November 23, 2021 - link
There is no deception from MediaTek. You are the one dividing the wrong way, 35% uplift means 1.35 times the performance and thus 1.35 times the height, which is exactly what the graph shows.UNLK A6 - Tuesday, November 23, 2021 - link
To see the original slides, they're still at 9to5google.com. Search for "Dimensity 9000".UNLK A6 - Tuesday, November 23, 2021 - link
...And notice they credit AnandTech for those images. What the heck AnandTech, how about a remark someplace that you changed the article!Frenetic Pony - Thursday, November 18, 2021 - link
Damn, that entire camera isp section was about as useless as most camera numbers are in phones these days. "200mp, 18bit, 200 gigapixels-" shut up, your tech is wasted, why are you advertising it to people that should know better?arayoflight - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
200MP capture pipeline also means that you can do 17 frames of 12MP for better HDR stacking and merging.A more competent ISP benefits even lower resolution sensors.
Also simultaneous capture of multiple 4k streams is great as it will allow for smooth switching of cameras during capture. Currently only iPhone can do that.
hanselltc - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
Nice claims and nice specs, but we'll have to see where they end up and how they actually perform.The D1000-1200 chips also had rather nice specs, but other than Nord 2 they were basically china exclusives.
On the A15 review's performance/energy chart D1200 basically got bodied by 865, and then there's apple doing 3 quarters of its middle core's performance on blizzards with half energy.
Huawei cranked Kirin 9000 out with Arm Holdings IP for the CPU/GPU and had them actually trashing everything android while going at apple for GPU. A year later this thing calls itself 9000 again, lets see if it performs.
dotjaz - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
That's definitely not how it works. The pipeline is 9GPix/s. It has nothing to do with the maximum resolution. That 320MP is likely not zero-lag and lacking a lot of processing. That's why triple camera only have less than 1/3 the total pixel counts.eastcoast_pete - Thursday, November 18, 2021 - link
On another note, Samsung's fabs better have an answer for this N4 node from TSMC soon, or Qualcomm might rethink their choice of foundry quite quickly. Plus, NVIDIA isn't too pleased with the efficiency (lack thereof) of Samsung's N8 process. But for now, both QC and NVIDIA might be stuck with Samsung, as TSMC seems to be quite booked for now, and not just on their advanced EUV (N5, N4) nodes.dotjaz - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
Nvidia chose an old node that was never claimed to be as efficient. Why would Nvidia blame Samsung for it?You don't even know the actual name of the node, it's 8N. So I suggest you shut up until you get your facts right.
Kangal - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
Excluding the questionable SMIC offerings, Samsung actually proposes the best performance per dollar lithography. And they deliver too.TSMC is pricey stuff. Part of that is the stable revenue stream that came from AMD and the consoles, allowing them to expand their R&D budget.
The truth is, the Kirin 9000 doesn't matter, and neither does the Dimensity 9000. They hardly ever make any supplies of it. I'd rather a "Good SoC" working on my phone, rather than a "Great SoC" which is almost vaporware/paper-launch.
vladx - Saturday, November 20, 2021 - link
Vaporware my ass, here writing to you from a Mate 40 running on a Kirin 9000E. People here in EU are not brainwashed to get our phones straight from carriers, we can actually think for ourselves and buy from stores which doesn't limit your options to a couple of phone models only.ksec - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
A little sad to see the level of comments have degraded on Anandtech. It hasn't always been good, but at least you used to get one or two decent signal that make it good enough.Surprised by the improvement on WiFi and 5G. But remains to be seen how good it is in RL.
Alistair - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
Android phones are quite good, SoC excepted. Hopefully this is what is needed to bring them much closer to Apple. N4 so early, and Armv9, and Mali10 (next gen) and all the goodies. Yum.SydneyBlue120d - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
Let's see if Qualcomm will finally provide AV1 decoding!5j3rul3 - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
It's exciting 😆😆😆How the 9 Gigapixel/s enhanced the photography experience?
sirmo - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
And just like that Apple gets dethroned. Interesting.mode_13h - Saturday, November 20, 2021 - link
If you believe their marketing slides. Let's see how it actually benches.michael2k - Saturday, November 20, 2021 - link
How so? All scores indicate Apple still has a 30% lead given the slides we’re comparing against X1 SoC; a 10% advantage against an X1 still means a 30% deficit against an A15mode_13h - Sunday, November 21, 2021 - link
Referring to the all-core performance score, I presume.Note how the slide on "Single Core" performance only references "Android Flagship", whereas the "Multi Core" slide references that in addition to "2020 Flagship" and "2021 Flagship".
serendip - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
This has to go into a laptop chip to compete with the 8cx. We need more high-performance ARM chips without having to get locked into Apple's MacBooks only.Wereweeb - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
I'll buy Mediatek when there's better support for custom ROM's and open source communities. Never trust hardware manufacturers to update their software.Fulljack - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
very interested with this SoC. thankfully my country are pretty competitive regarding smartphone market, so I'll expect any device with Dimensity 9000 SoC will be sold at around ~500US$ ballpark, which is cheap compared to what similarly specced Qualcomm device.I know that Mediatek has such terrible support and openness toward modding communities, but I'm hopeful with how Google has designed Android 12 as very modular, also how Linux kernel 5.10 has support GKI, I'm very positive it'll have good—if not mediocre aftermarket support from the modding communities.
KarlKastor - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
The L2 Cache of the A510 is shared, so it should be 2x 256KB in the table.Wereweeb - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
Read the article. Mediatek didn't merge the A510's into complexes, so L2 isn't shared.KarlKastor - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
My bad. I somehow managed to skip this part.dharmOS - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
I would love to see a SoC like this in a ChromeBook. I have an Asus Flip C101 using an OP1/Rockchip 3399 (2xA72, 4x A53), which is fantastic for the last 6 years but getting a bit old and runs out of updates from Aug 23. Very few ChromeBooks with decent ARM options.As an aside, really important that Mali graphics continues to survive under ARM/Softbank, as the potential future Nvidia buyout would wipe this out and replace it with one of their more expensive GPU options.
nandnandnand - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
I'm sure you would. In reality you will see MT8195 and MT8192 with 4x Cortex-A78 or A76 and 4x A55. Either one should be a great upgrade.mode_13h - Saturday, November 20, 2021 - link
> really important that Mali graphics continues to survive under ARM/Softbank,> as the potential future Nvidia buyout would wipe this out
That would be interesting if regulators made them sell or spinoff the GPU division. Sadly, if we look at Imagination's poor fortunes, the prospects for a spinoff wouldn't look great.
Tigran - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
>>in terms of per-core performance one new G710 core is roughly equivalent to two G78 cores<< Is it really true? When Mali-G710 was presented by ARM, they promised +20% gaming performance VS vs Mali-G78.CrisJim1997 - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
Yeah & I think the GPU of this Dimensity 9000 packs more than 2TFLOPS of FP32 FLOPSss91 - Sunday, November 21, 2021 - link
I think it was meant for comparison with G78 chips made on same process node. Samsung 5nm is already said to be worse than TSMC 5nm, I’d imagine 4nm makes the gap bigger.While I have my reservations with the amount of benefit that can come from node (pretty sure it’s not going to be 67% better than Samsung node), it’s to be assumed that marketing claims will be a little more than the actual
ChrisGX - Thursday, November 25, 2021 - link
The two statements that you take as contradicting one another are actually consistent - they refer to different matters. For an implementation of the G710 on the same silicon process as the predecessor G78 (TSMC N5) if power is held constant the Mali-G710 will offer a 20% performance improvement. However, the structure of the Mali cores change with the G710. You are only going to need roughly half of the number of cores to achieve equivalent performance to the earlier generation G78. The cores of the G710 are faster, bigger and more power hungry but in a sensible GPU configuration in an ARM SoC they offer a 20% energy efficiency boost in an ISO Process implementation.If the Dimensity 9000 is anything to go by it looks like ARM premium SoC manufacturers will be looking for big gains in GPU performance (much more than 20%) and they will be willing to pay a power consumption price to get it. So, with ARM SoCs in flagship Android phones already operating at the power limit for such devices power savings will have to be made elsewhere if sustainable performance is to see solid gains in 2022 phones.
tobichii6 - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
I will not belive until they be friendly with open-source community as GNU GPL v2. Look at Qualcomm, they're still superior, of course their hardware decoder like AV1 Is I think still behind (update on me for this) but they can still whip your butt because of their soon snapdragon cpu. This is just talking of new architecture cpu meanwhile does not represent average software update, and plus it's a pain in the arse to mod a MediaTek device. And that's not funny at all. Because devices tend to go old, We need a source code so our devices would last long.
Change your policy about the source code to getting open then we're talking (all android chipset in mtk family must be open)
dwillmore - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
Please don't use SLC for System Level Cache as SLC is already used for flash memories. It's going to cause confusion.FunBunny2 - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
"SLC is already used for flash memories"SLC was used for flash memories
it's been a while since there was any SLC on sale anywhere.
Wereweeb - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
There's plenty in servers, and almost all SSD's use their cells in pSLC mode for caching. The FuzeDrive uses it for tiering.mode_13h - Saturday, November 20, 2021 - link
I think it's the nomenclature ARM is using, though. It's reasonable to have a distinct term for cache that's shared among all the CPU cores *and* accelerator blocks, so I don't mind them not simply calling it L3 or LLC.Boss Win - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
Too many Qualcomm employee attacking a chinese city taipei company MediaTek.Biggest excuse is communism stole tech. While capitalism stole Hawaii, California, New Mexico, and the whole USA.
And yeah, happy thanksgiving.. where people saved you from your winter deaths only to be killed by you after.
Stupid white men who want to rape 13 year old Pocahontas.
Raqia - Friday, November 19, 2021 - link
Their issue has always been software support which lags other vendors:https://www.androidauthority.com/qualcomm-mediatek...
Not to mention driver cheats. The part does look like the ARM presentation's '22 reference high end implementation and good on paper so hopefully it spurs more competition and innovation. HBM stacks on phones maybe? Split, mammoth sized CPU and GPU chiplets?
mode_13h - Saturday, November 20, 2021 - link
Cost is probably a big issue with both of those. We're likely to see stacked memory in laptops first (like what Apple did), before it ever reaches phones. I doubt if HBM can be power-efficient enough, which is probably why Apple went with LPDDR5, in the M1 Pro and Max.And a dedicated GPU chiplet in phones? Doesn't seem likely. Maybe if yields of even newer processes are poor.
wjohnas - Saturday, November 20, 2021 - link
Samsung's Exynows 2100 already supports 8K@60fps AV1 Decoding, I don't know what Mediatek talking aboutCrisJim1997 - Saturday, November 20, 2021 - link
Yeah & also the exynos 1080 supports 8K60 AV1 decoding based on WikipediaGC2:CS - Saturday, November 20, 2021 - link
If i remember anandtech was quite conservative about hyping up next gen (2021) arm designs. While this chip loks like a quite staggering step up.Could it be thanks to 4nm being massivelly better than 5nm In terms of efficiency ? A 6% shrink sucks bad on the other hand. Should be 43% by marketing numbers. No 20B transistor phone coming up this year.
KarlKastor - Saturday, November 20, 2021 - link
There is no N5 SoC except from Apple. That's why it is a big step. Samsung's 5LPP is more comparable to N7.Additionally Mediatek does not try to save Die area everywhere and is quite generous with cache size.
vladx - Sunday, November 21, 2021 - link
> There is no N5 SoC except from Apple. That's why it is a big step. Samsung's 5LPP is more comparable to N7.False, Kirin 9000/9000E was also fabbed on TSMC's N5.
CrisJim1997 - Sunday, November 21, 2021 - link
Yeah & also there has a new rumors for the upcoming subflagship Dimensity 7000 to be built from 5nm TSMC node & will be more powerful than the snapdragon 870CrisJim1997 - Saturday, November 20, 2021 - link
Sir andrei? I think the GPU of this Dimensity 9000 packs more than 2TFLOPS of FP32 FLOPSloracle707 - Monday, November 22, 2021 - link
Bad cpu for battery and performance, prefer Qualcomm cpus instead of this garbage.s.yu - Monday, November 29, 2021 - link
Nice to see that they're sticking to logical numbers. That "-65%" would surely have been "2x lower" in a stupider company's slideswangwanghongkong - Thursday, March 3, 2022 - link
This is pure vanila technical blog stop posting bullshit political comments. Please censor these comments.Tatar76 - Monday, May 2, 2022 - link
Best Android chipset !! Better than exynos 2200 and Qualcomm 8/1