Childish antics won't change facts, DigitalFREAK. The PS5 is this console generation's weak sauce. All of its bells and all of its whistles couldn't put Jim Ryan back together again.
Exactly. These consoles each have trade offs. In the end they are similar enough in performance that a lot of it will come down to blind brand preference and exclusive launch titles...
The way I see it is the Xbox Series X is: ...cheaper, smaller, quieter, cooler, uses less electricity, more storage, faster hardware, better API (DirectX U12.5/13), more video-out options, better App options, best backwards compatibility, enhanced third-party titles, better online servers, more value-for-money GamePass, plus retail-mode emulation support. So basically more advanced in every way, very tempting, and great for competition.
But if I had to choose, I would get the PS5, which has: ...better name, better controller, VR option. Those aren't the reasons to get a PS5, and despite its many disadvantages to the Xbox SeX, the reason why I would choose a PS5 is because it will have higher-quality and more-quantity of Exclusive Games. It's that simple.
The most/best coverage for Gaming would require: iPhone, PS5, Desktop PC. Very sought-after "quality" exclusive games have come/will come to iOS and PS5 platforms. The x86 Desktop PC will handle the "quantity" portion of gaming, because it supports: AAA-games, Indies, Old Games, Flash Games, Android running in Windows, and Dualbooting Mac OSX. On top of all of these, the Windows10 PC can also do emulation of the Switch, Wii U, PS3, X360, Xbox, Wii, GameCube, n2DS XL, PS2, 3DS, PSP, DreamCast, PS1, MS DoS, DS, N64, GBa, sNES, Sega, MAME, Atari, etc etc.
even sony took the easy way out. the SoC of the PS5 is almost equal to the GPU of discrete cards
Microsoft took the gpu more adapted to its needs, so the soc of both xboxes is much more different in its layout
even some blocks of the ps5 gpu are more similar to those of RDNA1 than those of the XBOX GPU (the S Series is somewhat rarer, much more compact on the one hand but with extra blocks on the other)
check this out cooltech.cubava.cu/2021/02/20/analisis-comparativo-de-los-chips-de-las-nuevas-consolas-en-progreso-2/
The specs of the consoles are close enough that it mostly comes down to a decision about which software ecosystem and online network you want to play in.
Of course, that's not to say that MS didn't win this round. And if I were to play the same game on each console, I'd expect the XBox version to be better. But the differences aren't so great that they're completely outside the realm of what can be overcome by doing more optimization for one system than another.
Honestly, they're both great consoles, just as PlayStation vs. XBox has always been. Buy the one that has the games you want to play. The *one* thing that can tip things toward the XBox, depending on your gaming priorities, is XBox Game Pass. I had a 360, followed by an XBox, but only added Game Pass when I got a Series X. Totally hooked. It makes trying new games a lot easier and effortless without constantly thinking, "eh, do I really want to spend $20/$50/$80 on this?" Just download and play. Buy it to keep forever only if you're convinced you really want it. But I get that subscription software is not for everyone.
The Series X is a faster and more efficient console than the PS5, and it supports 1440p resolution, but I just want to point out, about 90% of the games that are exclusive to Series X are going to come to PC, but Sony's exclusive games generally will not come to the PC, or they will come at a much later date. If you are a PC gamer and you are contemplating either the Series X or the PS5, the PS5 gives you access to excellent game studios like Insomniac, Naughty Dog, Sony Santa Monica, and Sucker Punch, and you can't get that anywhere else. With how close the hardware of the PS5 and the Series X are, it's only practical for a PC gamer to buy a PS5 and skip the Series X
Unless your mining ETH nonstop with your gaming PC, in which case you would pickup whatever console you can get your hands on. I've been a PC gamer all my life and have traditionally looked down on consoles. But with ETH prices skyrocketing, combined with a extremely bullish 2-3 year outlook for ETH, it'd be missing out on a ton of money by using my gaming pc for, well, gaming.
Define 'more efficient' are you talking purely paper specs, or do you actually know the software/API overhead of each machine. Based on most of the benchmarks between the two systems so far (check Digital Foundry) you'll find that this really isn't the case in the real world.
I mean the power efficiency. From what I've seen both consoles use around 200 watts of power while playing games and the Series X is roughly 20% faster than the PS5. The Series X is running the GPU at 1.8 GHz and the PS5 is at 2.1 GHz, so it doesn't reach the point of diminishing returns for power efficiency
If we are going to play the "it's the games that matter, stupid" card (which I actually agree with despite my jest elsewhere here in the comments about the PS5's inferiority), then we should all go out and buy the Nintendo Switch. Honestly, I haven't bought a Sony or Microsoft console for over a decade. I am underwhelmed by the gore fest most of the mindless games on these consoles have devolved into (not to mention the so-called "AAA" PC games, but that's a whole other animal). So, if you want the best of both worlds, buy Switch games, rip them and then emulate them in Ryujinx in brilliant and razor-crisp 4K.
"I am underwhelmed by the gore fest most of the mindless games on these consoles have devolved into"
I can't even make sense of today's games. Too colourful, too many things plastered all over the screen, too "cinematic." The only one I'm looking forward to is HL3, if that ever comes. Alyx, will likely never play owing to the VR equipment, but when I get a chance, will watch it on YT.
My last gaming experiences (outside of multiplayer stuff) have been The Outer Wilds, Disco Elysium, and Hades. The only description out of the above that I'd say matches is "colourful" - and I can recommend them all.
I just looked them up, and dammit, that's brilliant stuff you cited. Especially "Disco Elysium." Back in my gaming days, long since gone, I was quite fond of the Infinity Engine RPGs (Torment and BG2 being my favourites), so that game does appeal. The thing is, I think I've become too tired, physically. Haven't got the energy to tackle and complete a game any more. Only started playing BioShock Infinite last year, found it excellent (and colourful), but still haven't completed it. Same with Pillars of Eternity, but there haven't even got beyond the opening level yet. My younger self would be shocked. Often, I get satisfaction from playing a few minutes of HL2; it's strangely nostalgic to me. I miss Oblivion too.
I hear you on being tired! Disco Elysium took me a couple of months from start to finish, and it's "only" about 30 hours of game-play (although certainly with some replay value in there).
Hades is a good one in that regard as it is designed to be played in short, 30-90 minute bursts.
I have bounced off a few games the way you're describing with Bioshock Infinite - the last one was Deus Ex: Mankind Divided. I'm currently getting similar kicks to you with HL2 from running the Goldeneye Xbox 360 leak on an emulator. I guess that's what getting older is about 😅
Disco Elysium has certainly got my attention (both its art aesthetic and Torment-like atmosphere), and I'll try to have a go at it in the future. Glad to see these isometric RPGs still going strong. One I tried not too long ago was Tides of Numenara. Truly excellent ideas but dragged down by clumsy mechanics and lack of polish.
Oh, yes, Goldeneye, that was a classic back in the day. Never did play it. I think those games take us back in time, if only for a while. The oldest I've got installed on my computer are Diablo and Starcraft, but rarely open them.
The problem with Switch is that it's using a Tablet-oriented SoC from 2015. So, even if you render it in glorious 4k, it's still like PS3-ish graphics.
Not to be a snob, as there were some good-looking PS3 games by the end of its run, but you're really giving up a lot in the graphics department by going with switch games, even at 4k.
"Microsoft states that compared to the previous generation 7200 RPM drives, its new Xbox Velocity Architecture (using NAND over NVMe plus the MSP) enables faster loading times"
I should hope that an NVMe storage system should provide faster loading times than a 7200 RPM hard drive.
There are 10 GDDR6 controllers supporting 20 x16 links, with 10 GDDR6 chips. Not eight. Google for images of the Xbox Series X SoC to see that there are 10.
Thanks Ian, great overview! One thing I am wondering about is whether the twenty-some percent of "defective" chips end up in the Series S, after some laser surgery, of course. Another recurrent thought of mine is that I wouldn't mind this configuration as my Windows 10 desktop machine. I am pretty sure this SoC is locked down against such diversion, but if anyone has tried and was successful, I'd really like to know how it's done.
Well that 73% is probably the lower bound of actual yield. They might use any other chips in the cloud services. The Series S uses a completely different die design, so it's unlikely they'd use this chip for that.
It might not be the best use of your time but it would be awesome to get some input from you on all the "Is it RNDA 1 or 2" speculation going around right now.
My input is zero. It is what it is. It's not as if there's going to be a variant in a few months with more features. Consoles are quite static, and if they do have a cost reduction model, it's difficult to see where they'd go when the next manufacturing jump is to EUV, which undoubtedly costs a pretty penny.
That is definitely all true but when it comes to the console wars, any little thing that can be used as ammo to express superiority is of course, the upmost importance and would draw a lot interest.
Hi Ian, Just a short question, do you think either MS or Sony should have held back on launching their next-gen console?
For context, there's massive supply shortages, there are biosecurity risks, and a bad economy for consumers. If let's say MS discontinued the whole Xbox One lineup and launched the Xbox series S. Then they released the Xbox Series X a year later, wouldn't that mean better supplies, cheaper parts, less biosecurity risks, better consumer economy....and access to better technology (eg Zen3 CPU, RDNA-2.5 GPU, 32GB VRAM etc etc). Wouldn't that give the company a huge advantage over their rival? Example; Sega DreamCast versus Sony PS2.
@Kangal - Sony mostly won out against the Dreamcast because of their massive software library, army of developers, and straightforward backwards compatibility - rather than outright hardware superiority. Microsoft missing this launch would have absolutely gutted their market.
I think the RNDA 1 vs. 2 speculation is absurd since both consoles are using the same RNDA2 WGPs. Otherwise one of the consoles would lack the RT units and hence offer no hardware raytracing support of any kind. The other parts of the SoCs, software and the product experience as a whole should offer a lot more to talk about.
"10 GB of this memory is higher performance, enabling 560 GB/s of memory bandwidth for games, while the other 6 GB is of lower performance, at 336 GB/s of memory bandwidth, for games or circumstances where memory is not the limiting factor."
Isn't that misleading? It's not that there's faster or slower memory. It's that the 16gbs of memory isn't an even multiple of the 10 channels they have and so they have two different sized memory chips. 6 2gb chips and 4 1gb chips. So for the first 10gbs of memory they get to use all 10 channels accessing all the memory chips in parallel for more performance but once they get past that first 10 gb of memory 4 of the chips are"full" and so you are limited to only 6 channels so the performance drops off. A theoretical 20gb xbox with 10 2gb chips would have full performance for the entire memory space.
Its pretty much irrelevant since the OS of both the PS5 and XSX need a decent chunk of memory. And also the CPU needs access to a decent chunk also, and it can't make much use of the faster memory anyway in gaming workloads.
So on the Xbox the OS is the main user of the slower (still very fast) memory. Most games will just target 10gb of usage anyway for their gpu assets.
Small typo near the end in your yeild parameters. "Scarlett is 306.4 mm2 (15.831 mm x 22.765 mm)" Should be 360.4 mm2 as stated earlier in the article.
A poor library indeed contributed to the death of the Dreamcast, though its demise probably owes more to it being "the odd man in the middle" than anything. It was released in the middle of console generations, right on the cusp of the PS2's release with its allure of far superior hardware already turning heads. Even if the Dreamcast's specifications far outmatched and outgunned PCs of the time, its awkward timing (with promises of better things were already being dangled in front of noses) prevented it from getting the necessary developer uptake it would need to last out the storm of that console generation.
What's the use of all this. It's good for those who are into Console HW innerworkings.
But if you factor in how they compare against a PC, it doesn't matter much. PS5 maybe, since Soyny has some HW features cut off from their chip.
The biggest thing is Games, what does Xbox garbage have ? They tried so hard to beat PS4 and couldn't do it in any factor, then you have Switch with this pathetic ARM HW and CPU that get crushed by Smartphone SoCs sold a huge chunk of consoles at 79M units. PS4 is at 114M units, Xbox is at 50M max. How are they going to offer anything good ?
MS is only good at making their stock rise due to the income from Live services trash like Gamepass on XBox and now that bloatware and worst piece of DRM code, UWP made to PC as well and naive people buy that garbage too which blocks them running any sort of Monitoring tools, mods anything. And they can never own it as well.
Game IP portfolio - Halo, completely busted thanks to 343wokeindustries Halo 5 disaster campaign, they didn't learn a bit. Bonnie Ross's new Halo Infinite couldn't even beat utter flop Killzone Shadowfall in GFX fidelity, and they are launching it on PC and Xbox simultaneously with GaaS again in mind with MTX over SP. Soyny even though is in a free fall in Japan (they do donot care ofc) and having insane censorship drama around their mandates plus famous for telling movie crap as stories still sells a lot of SP titles. That beats M$ completely, their Backwards compat is nothing like M$ but the library that many people like is not there on Xbox trash, in a desperate move they bought Bethesda hoping next Elder Scroll is going to make millions, sad part is DOOM IP is now in danger, how M$ will ruin it is up for debate. Anything that M$ is doing is ruined to core. They ruined Gears of War completely with that Gears5 garbage. AOE 4 is rumored, Forza maybe ? that's not enough for one console life.
So yeah, all that HW is useless junk. Esp if they are into PC this Box doesn't make any sense. Maybe to newbies and neo gamers Xbox might be appealing but they are not doing anything better than Sony in games which is what these machines are built for, not for spec war. PS4 and XB1 were utter bs in hw and pure junk yet they run RDR2. So the games library is what that matters most to the end consumers.
How does that have any hint of "love" towards PS/Sony ?
Why don't you name any single solid IP or game that makes anyone to buy Xbox ? For Nintendo everyone can name a lot, for Soyny also so many franchises with proper Single Player content even if they are highly deviated likes of God of War 2018 soft reboot which entirely ruins Kratos and has ultimate boring gameplay even then it was top game for PS Exclusive.
" How does that have any hint of "love" towards PS/Sony ? " oh i dont know the constant bashing of MS and praise of sony ? you do realize the the new xbox and ps5 both have practically the same under lying hardware right ? i cant name any solid game for EITHER system, as i dont have any of them, or have any interest in the xbox or ps product lines.
Thanks for proving my point, I never mentioned that PS5 HW is different or anything. It was how MS game portfolio exists for masses. I don't even own a console, praise of sony lol, twisted argument for nothing since you don't have anything to add to the point I was making.
and that sounds like you dont really have a point either, its just your own PERSONAL preference, and opinion. i have heard from friends that they like the PS platform cause of the games, and the same for the xbox platform, and even some argue back and forth about which is better, which, in the end, is personal preference.
"have heard from friends that they like the PS platform cause of the games, and the same for the xbox platform,"
I asked you specifically which games on XBOX, you don't and you come & ask your friends what are those games for Xbox platform and say it's Pro Sony when I specifically mentioned even how rubbish they are handling their IPs like God of War for eg and Killzone is gone replaced by that crappy HZD.
Xbox is trash because it doesn't do anything better or exclusive than PC. And this is coming from a PC owner, only bought a PS2.
This is more advanced than anything right now due to the insane integration and 360mm chip size. Only affordable due to massive volumes and plan to sell this for several years (until they update it), and Sony/MS selling at a loss.
"since Soyny has some HW features cut off from their chip." They removed CPU features that they don't feel were needed. Big whoop.
I'm more interested in your repeated use of alt-right dog-whistles, like the obsession with "soy" and "woke" as insults. You sound worryingly invested in all this. Gears 5 was a great game, are you still mad about it having a GiRl?
Because that's what Soyny has become of lately. They ban and censor lot of Japanese games because of their standards, The Last of Us 2 is the living proof of that which many fans of the prev PS4 remaster and PS3 title agree alike and the inherent bias of that stupid Game Awards was clear show on the power play from their upper management.
And no Gears 5 is complete trash, it's not even Gears of War, they even removed War from the name. Steam also has low score (usually they do not have low scores on just because they are woke), and it's also woke trash and next that game lacks everything that made Gears of War shine, Testosterone and Intensity with atmosphere, gore, plot everything. Metacritic also has that game at sub par meh score.
"Great Game" top kek. That IP is dead unless M$ wants to bring all Trilogy, Judgement to PC Win32 native like MCC.
That is gone. A big shame, we never got insight into Nvidia Arch or AMD RDNA2. It's over. They only write if they are having incentive to, I think it's a covid related one.
Why would AT not write anything on the GPU architectures at all ??? We got tons of Intel content and now this one, a simple guess is all that one needs.
Interesting that the CPU is the higher temperature part. Could have MS downclocked the chip to 3.4GHz or so, and increased GPU clocks to get say 12.5TF performance instead? Total power draw would be of course higher with that change, making console slightly less efficient, but max chip temperatures could remain the same at the same fan speed.
It seems MS really did optimize perf/W quite a lot. I wonder what are the server chips getting in total. >=24 units seems even CPU could be cut a bit to say 6 CU for games that don't require such high performance, perhaps even with cut memory, so yields of such partly working parts would be near 100% in the end.
You find interesting things in unlikely places. In this review I found the answer to the question of the difference between Renoir and Lucienne: Lucienne has more refined power management. Thanks.
Considering there are no RDNA chip that is greater than 40 CUs, I feel it will likely be utilizing RDNA2 which also features hardware accelerated RT. Of course one of the key feature, the Infinity Cache, is missing. On the Xbox Series X, the impact with the loss of the cache is soften by the higher memory BUS. As for PS5, I feel they may be using RDNA and the hardware for RT acceleration may be separate customization. This is just my guess.
Sony confirmed RDNA 2 also, it was literally mentioned in their teardown video... I have no idea why folks seem to have this bizarre notion that their GPU is made out of glued together RAGE PRO's or something.
Some people heard that Sony had some features removed from the *CPU* cores that were deemed superfluous, and they decided it means their *GPU* wasn't RDNA 2.
It freaks me out a bit - both consoles were known to have RDNA 2 long before release, but then Navi 21 released with Infinity Cache and suddenly the fanboy hivemind decided that an RDNA 2 GPU without IF isn't RDNA 2. Not sure how they'll react to the low-end iterations that get integrated into APUs later on.
Can you please elaborate on the purported "20 GDDR6 channels" of Xbox Series X? I am not quite sure, but does GDDR6 work internally the same way as LPDDR4(X)/LPDDR5 and (as far as I know) also DDR5? More specifically these memories split the standard 32-bit bus to two internal 16-bit buses. However these internal buses are *not* physical channels. For instance, a system with 2x32-bit channels of LPDDR5 will have 4x16-bit "channels" in total if we also account for how the memory works internally, but it will always be fed by 2 memory controllers, never more.
The same appears to apply here, since I only count 10 GDDR6 controllers on the die. Yet Microsoft made a big point out of it, almost suggesting that their SoC has 20 physical memory channels fed by 20 memory controllers, not clarifying that splitting the 32-bit channel into two internally is just a neat efficiency technique. If that's indeed how GDDR6 works in general why have Nvidia and AMD always stuck to the physical memory channels & associated memory controllers of their GPUs?
If that's not how GDDR6 works normally (I looked it up in vain..) then how did MS double the memory channels without doubling the memory controllers? There is just *no* way each depicted GDDR6 controller on the die hides a second controller on the other side of the die right? No, that would be nuts..
It is interesting to see such a analysis on how it is engineered together. Comparing specs alone won't get anyone anywhere. Both consoles trade blows and have their own strong and weak points. Both shed their contribution on breakthrough implementations and do undoubtedly represent the current next-gen. Nonetheless in the end, all come to personal preference based on exclusive titles, controller, design and whatever other emotional and particular aspects as well on how their characteristics are presented in a marketing fashion and how one perceives them. Such aspects are impossible to measure objectively and discussions are frivolous. There is no best choice, nor there will ever be. Anyone who likes a particular console and can purchase it, should do so and will surely appreciate their decision. Anyone who wants a current next-gen console and can't make up own mind will enjoy any flavor available. The only opinion regarding these consoles that **may** not be skewed is that whichever be the customer pick, both the customer and AMD will be happy. We should just play and enjoy. Peace.
this solution is based on a 12 inch wafer and in the future the industry will move to 18 inch wafers, which means higher utilization of the fab and better pricing per wafer and eventually better prices to the end user. This die per wafer calculator show the various options per wafer size: https://anysilicon.com/die-per-wafer-formula-free-...
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Appleispoop - Monday, February 15, 2021 - link
PS5 is overratedDigitalFreak - Monday, February 15, 2021 - link
As are you.Hifihedgehog - Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - link
Childish antics won't change facts, DigitalFREAK. The PS5 is this console generation's weak sauce. All of its bells and all of its whistles couldn't put Jim Ryan back together again.WaltC - Wednesday, February 17, 2021 - link
It seems to me that all consoles are "trade-offs" of one kind or another...;)Samus - Thursday, February 18, 2021 - link
Exactly. These consoles each have trade offs. In the end they are similar enough in performance that a lot of it will come down to blind brand preference and exclusive launch titles...Kangal - Thursday, February 25, 2021 - link
The way I see it is the Xbox Series X is:...cheaper, smaller, quieter, cooler, uses less electricity, more storage, faster hardware, better API (DirectX U12.5/13), more video-out options, better App options, best backwards compatibility, enhanced third-party titles, better online servers, more value-for-money GamePass, plus retail-mode emulation support. So basically more advanced in every way, very tempting, and great for competition.
But if I had to choose, I would get the PS5, which has:
...better name, better controller, VR option.
Those aren't the reasons to get a PS5, and despite its many disadvantages to the Xbox SeX, the reason why I would choose a PS5 is because it will have higher-quality and more-quantity of Exclusive Games. It's that simple.
The most/best coverage for Gaming would require: iPhone, PS5, Desktop PC.
Very sought-after "quality" exclusive games have come/will come to iOS and PS5 platforms. The x86 Desktop PC will handle the "quantity" portion of gaming, because it supports: AAA-games, Indies, Old Games, Flash Games, Android running in Windows, and Dualbooting Mac OSX. On top of all of these, the Windows10 PC can also do emulation of the Switch, Wii U, PS3, X360, Xbox, Wii, GameCube, n2DS XL, PS2, 3DS, PSP, DreamCast, PS1, MS DoS, DS, N64, GBa, sNES, Sega, MAME, Atari, etc etc.
AshlayW - Friday, February 19, 2021 - link
And both consoles are, as always, the incumbent Gaming PC generation's weak sauce.;)
MaikelSZ - Tuesday, February 23, 2021 - link
even sony took the easy way out. the SoC of the PS5 is almost equal to the GPU of discrete cardsMicrosoft took the gpu more adapted to its needs, so the soc of both xboxes is much more different in its layout
even some blocks of the ps5 gpu are more similar to those of RDNA1 than those of the XBOX GPU (the S Series is somewhat rarer, much more compact on the one hand but with extra blocks on the other)
check this out
cooltech.cubava.cu/2021/02/20/analisis-comparativo-de-los-chips-de-las-nuevas-consolas-en-progreso-2/
MaikelSZ - Tuesday, February 23, 2021 - link
just the picturescooltech.cubava.cu/2021/02/20/analisis-comparativo-de-los-chips-de-las-nuevas-consolas-en-progreso-2/
mode_13h - Monday, February 15, 2021 - link
The specs of the consoles are close enough that it mostly comes down to a decision about which software ecosystem and online network you want to play in.Of course, that's not to say that MS didn't win this round. And if I were to play the same game on each console, I'd expect the XBox version to be better. But the differences aren't so great that they're completely outside the realm of what can be overcome by doing more optimization for one system than another.
The Garden Variety - Monday, February 15, 2021 - link
Honestly, they're both great consoles, just as PlayStation vs. XBox has always been. Buy the one that has the games you want to play. The *one* thing that can tip things toward the XBox, depending on your gaming priorities, is XBox Game Pass. I had a 360, followed by an XBox, but only added Game Pass when I got a Series X. Totally hooked. It makes trying new games a lot easier and effortless without constantly thinking, "eh, do I really want to spend $20/$50/$80 on this?" Just download and play. Buy it to keep forever only if you're convinced you really want it. But I get that subscription software is not for everyone.Spunjji - Thursday, February 18, 2021 - link
100% agreed here. Sony has more captive development studios doing high-quality platform exclusives, MS offer the better value-for-money package.XacTactX - Monday, February 15, 2021 - link
The Series X is a faster and more efficient console than the PS5, and it supports 1440p resolution, but I just want to point out, about 90% of the games that are exclusive to Series X are going to come to PC, but Sony's exclusive games generally will not come to the PC, or they will come at a much later date. If you are a PC gamer and you are contemplating either the Series X or the PS5, the PS5 gives you access to excellent game studios like Insomniac, Naughty Dog, Sony Santa Monica, and Sucker Punch, and you can't get that anywhere else. With how close the hardware of the PS5 and the Series X are, it's only practical for a PC gamer to buy a PS5 and skip the Series XJust my opinion of course
Morawka - Monday, February 15, 2021 - link
Unless your mining ETH nonstop with your gaming PC, in which case you would pickup whatever console you can get your hands on. I've been a PC gamer all my life and have traditionally looked down on consoles. But with ETH prices skyrocketing, combined with a extremely bullish 2-3 year outlook for ETH, it'd be missing out on a ton of money by using my gaming pc for, well, gaming.Spunjji - Wednesday, February 17, 2021 - link
"Join my MLM, it's not a pyramid scheme!"Bore off.
AshlayW - Friday, February 19, 2021 - link
You make me sick.powerarmour - Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - link
Define 'more efficient' are you talking purely paper specs, or do you actually know the software/API overhead of each machine. Based on most of the benchmarks between the two systems so far (check Digital Foundry) you'll find that this really isn't the case in the real world.XacTactX - Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - link
I mean the power efficiency. From what I've seen both consoles use around 200 watts of power while playing games and the Series X is roughly 20% faster than the PS5. The Series X is running the GPU at 1.8 GHz and the PS5 is at 2.1 GHz, so it doesn't reach the point of diminishing returns for power efficiencyHifihedgehog - Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - link
If we are going to play the "it's the games that matter, stupid" card (which I actually agree with despite my jest elsewhere here in the comments about the PS5's inferiority), then we should all go out and buy the Nintendo Switch. Honestly, I haven't bought a Sony or Microsoft console for over a decade. I am underwhelmed by the gore fest most of the mindless games on these consoles have devolved into (not to mention the so-called "AAA" PC games, but that's a whole other animal). So, if you want the best of both worlds, buy Switch games, rip them and then emulate them in Ryujinx in brilliant and razor-crisp 4K.GeoffreyA - Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - link
"I am underwhelmed by the gore fest most of the mindless games on these consoles have devolved into"I can't even make sense of today's games. Too colourful, too many things plastered all over the screen, too "cinematic." The only one I'm looking forward to is HL3, if that ever comes. Alyx, will likely never play owing to the VR equipment, but when I get a chance, will watch it on YT.
Spunjji - Wednesday, February 17, 2021 - link
My last gaming experiences (outside of multiplayer stuff) have been The Outer Wilds, Disco Elysium, and Hades. The only description out of the above that I'd say matches is "colourful" - and I can recommend them all.GeoffreyA - Wednesday, February 17, 2021 - link
I just looked them up, and dammit, that's brilliant stuff you cited. Especially "Disco Elysium." Back in my gaming days, long since gone, I was quite fond of the Infinity Engine RPGs (Torment and BG2 being my favourites), so that game does appeal. The thing is, I think I've become too tired, physically. Haven't got the energy to tackle and complete a game any more. Only started playing BioShock Infinite last year, found it excellent (and colourful), but still haven't completed it. Same with Pillars of Eternity, but there haven't even got beyond the opening level yet. My younger self would be shocked. Often, I get satisfaction from playing a few minutes of HL2; it's strangely nostalgic to me. I miss Oblivion too.Spunjji - Thursday, February 18, 2021 - link
I hear you on being tired! Disco Elysium took me a couple of months from start to finish, and it's "only" about 30 hours of game-play (although certainly with some replay value in there).Hades is a good one in that regard as it is designed to be played in short, 30-90 minute bursts.
I have bounced off a few games the way you're describing with Bioshock Infinite - the last one was Deus Ex: Mankind Divided. I'm currently getting similar kicks to you with HL2 from running the Goldeneye Xbox 360 leak on an emulator. I guess that's what getting older is about 😅
GeoffreyA - Friday, February 19, 2021 - link
Disco Elysium has certainly got my attention (both its art aesthetic and Torment-like atmosphere), and I'll try to have a go at it in the future. Glad to see these isometric RPGs still going strong. One I tried not too long ago was Tides of Numenara. Truly excellent ideas but dragged down by clumsy mechanics and lack of polish.Oh, yes, Goldeneye, that was a classic back in the day. Never did play it. I think those games take us back in time, if only for a while. The oldest I've got installed on my computer are Diablo and Starcraft, but rarely open them.
Spunjji - Wednesday, February 17, 2021 - link
Actually a solid suggestion.mode_13h - Monday, February 22, 2021 - link
The problem with Switch is that it's using a Tablet-oriented SoC from 2015. So, even if you render it in glorious 4k, it's still like PS3-ish graphics.Not to be a snob, as there were some good-looking PS3 games by the end of its run, but you're really giving up a lot in the graphics department by going with switch games, even at 4k.
Spunjji - Thursday, February 18, 2021 - link
This is the approach I'd take if I could afford both.DigitalFreak - Monday, February 15, 2021 - link
"Microsoft states that compared to the previous generation 7200 RPM drives, its new Xbox Velocity Architecture (using NAND over NVMe plus the MSP) enables faster loading times"I should hope that an NVMe storage system should provide faster loading times than a 7200 RPM hard drive.
shabby - Monday, February 15, 2021 - link
My mind is blown too 😲Kushan - Monday, February 15, 2021 - link
You've taken that out of context, though. The point isn't that load times are faster, it's that they're faster _while also saving space_.Steinegal - Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - link
And it is not even 7200RPM drives in the One X it is 5400RPM it is a pain.Jorgp2 - Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - link
Some QLC drives are slower than an SMR HDD.Also, the SSD in the Series X is pretty much bottom of the barrel.
GeoffreyA - Monday, February 15, 2021 - link
Interesting reading. Thank you.arjuntare - Monday, February 15, 2021 - link
16 Gbps GDDR6 is often quoted at 2.5 W per chip, and this has 10, suggesting that memory could be 25 WShouldn't it be 8 chips, 20W ?
IanCutress - Monday, February 15, 2021 - link
There are 10 GDDR6 controllers supporting 20 x16 links, with 10 GDDR6 chips. Not eight. Google for images of the Xbox Series X SoC to see that there are 10.SolarBear28 - Monday, February 15, 2021 - link
Fantastic stuffeastcoast_pete - Monday, February 15, 2021 - link
Thanks Ian, great overview! One thing I am wondering about is whether the twenty-some percent of "defective" chips end up in the Series S, after some laser surgery, of course.Another recurrent thought of mine is that I wouldn't mind this configuration as my Windows 10 desktop machine. I am pretty sure this SoC is locked down against such diversion, but if anyone has tried and was successful, I'd really like to know how it's done.
IanCutress - Monday, February 15, 2021 - link
Well that 73% is probably the lower bound of actual yield. They might use any other chips in the cloud services. The Series S uses a completely different die design, so it's unlikely they'd use this chip for that.We tested the previous Xbox One SoC a few weeks ago. So you might be waiting another 7 years for this one to come to Windows. https://www.anandtech.com/show/16336/installing-wi...
diehardmacfan - Monday, February 15, 2021 - link
It might not be the best use of your time but it would be awesome to get some input from you on all the "Is it RNDA 1 or 2" speculation going around right now.IanCutress - Monday, February 15, 2021 - link
My input is zero. It is what it is. It's not as if there's going to be a variant in a few months with more features. Consoles are quite static, and if they do have a cost reduction model, it's difficult to see where they'd go when the next manufacturing jump is to EUV, which undoubtedly costs a pretty penny.diehardmacfan - Monday, February 15, 2021 - link
That is definitely all true but when it comes to the console wars, any little thing that can be used as ammo to express superiority is of course, the upmost importance and would draw a lot interest.Kangal - Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - link
Hi Ian,Just a short question, do you think either MS or Sony should have held back on launching their next-gen console?
For context, there's massive supply shortages, there are biosecurity risks, and a bad economy for consumers. If let's say MS discontinued the whole Xbox One lineup and launched the Xbox series S. Then they released the Xbox Series X a year later, wouldn't that mean better supplies, cheaper parts, less biosecurity risks, better consumer economy....and access to better technology (eg Zen3 CPU, RDNA-2.5 GPU, 32GB VRAM etc etc). Wouldn't that give the company a huge advantage over their rival? Example; Sega DreamCast versus Sony PS2.
Spunjji - Wednesday, February 17, 2021 - link
@Kangal - Sony mostly won out against the Dreamcast because of their massive software library, army of developers, and straightforward backwards compatibility - rather than outright hardware superiority. Microsoft missing this launch would have absolutely gutted their market.TeXWiller - Monday, February 15, 2021 - link
I think the RNDA 1 vs. 2 speculation is absurd since both consoles are using the same RNDA2 WGPs. Otherwise one of the consoles would lack the RT units and hence offer no hardware raytracing support of any kind. The other parts of the SoCs, software and the product experience as a whole should offer a lot more to talk about.Spunjji - Wednesday, February 17, 2021 - link
Both designs are based on RDNA 2. This was known a while back.kpb321 - Monday, February 15, 2021 - link
"10 GB of this memory is higher performance, enabling 560 GB/s of memory bandwidth for games, while the other 6 GB is of lower performance, at 336 GB/s of memory bandwidth, for games or circumstances where memory is not the limiting factor."Isn't that misleading? It's not that there's faster or slower memory. It's that the 16gbs of memory isn't an even multiple of the 10 channels they have and so they have two different sized memory chips. 6 2gb chips and 4 1gb chips. So for the first 10gbs of memory they get to use all 10 channels accessing all the memory chips in parallel for more performance but once they get past that first 10 gb of memory 4 of the chips are"full" and so you are limited to only 6 channels so the performance drops off. A theoretical 20gb xbox with 10 2gb chips would have full performance for the entire memory space.
SirDragonClaw - Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - link
Its pretty much irrelevant since the OS of both the PS5 and XSX need a decent chunk of memory. And also the CPU needs access to a decent chunk also, and it can't make much use of the faster memory anyway in gaming workloads.So on the Xbox the OS is the main user of the slower (still very fast) memory. Most games will just target 10gb of usage anyway for their gpu assets.
dairyAT - Monday, February 15, 2021 - link
Small typo near the end in your yeild parameters. "Scarlett is 306.4 mm2 (15.831 mm x 22.765 mm)"Should be 360.4 mm2 as stated earlier in the article.
IanCutress - Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - link
Thanks, updated!iranterres - Monday, February 15, 2021 - link
Great hardware, terrible library.Hifihedgehog - Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - link
A poor library indeed contributed to the death of the Dreamcast, though its demise probably owes more to it being "the odd man in the middle" than anything. It was released in the middle of console generations, right on the cusp of the PS2's release with its allure of far superior hardware already turning heads. Even if the Dreamcast's specifications far outmatched and outgunned PCs of the time, its awkward timing (with promises of better things were already being dangled in front of noses) prevented it from getting the necessary developer uptake it would need to last out the storm of that console generation.powerarmour - Wednesday, February 17, 2021 - link
The Dreamcast had a great library btwSpunjji - Thursday, February 18, 2021 - link
Just not a big one, unfortunately - and it had no signs of getting better before they cancelled it.Jumangi - Monday, February 15, 2021 - link
These presentations really show how much work went into designing these systems. Allot more customization going on than allot of people may realize.Silver5urfer - Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - link
What's the use of all this. It's good for those who are into Console HW innerworkings.But if you factor in how they compare against a PC, it doesn't matter much. PS5 maybe, since Soyny has some HW features cut off from their chip.
The biggest thing is Games, what does Xbox garbage have ? They tried so hard to beat PS4 and couldn't do it in any factor, then you have Switch with this pathetic ARM HW and CPU that get crushed by Smartphone SoCs sold a huge chunk of consoles at 79M units. PS4 is at 114M units, Xbox is at 50M max. How are they going to offer anything good ?
MS is only good at making their stock rise due to the income from Live services trash like Gamepass on XBox and now that bloatware and worst piece of DRM code, UWP made to PC as well and naive people buy that garbage too which blocks them running any sort of Monitoring tools, mods anything. And they can never own it as well.
Game IP portfolio - Halo, completely busted thanks to 343wokeindustries Halo 5 disaster campaign, they didn't learn a bit. Bonnie Ross's new Halo Infinite couldn't even beat utter flop Killzone Shadowfall in GFX fidelity, and they are launching it on PC and Xbox simultaneously with GaaS again in mind with MTX over SP. Soyny even though is in a free fall in Japan (they do donot care ofc) and having insane censorship drama around their mandates plus famous for telling movie crap as stories still sells a lot of SP titles. That beats M$ completely, their Backwards compat is nothing like M$ but the library that many people like is not there on Xbox trash, in a desperate move they bought Bethesda hoping next Elder Scroll is going to make millions, sad part is DOOM IP is now in danger, how M$ will ruin it is up for debate. Anything that M$ is doing is ruined to core. They ruined Gears of War completely with that Gears5 garbage. AOE 4 is rumored, Forza maybe ? that's not enough for one console life.
So yeah, all that HW is useless junk. Esp if they are into PC this Box doesn't make any sense. Maybe to newbies and neo gamers Xbox might be appealing but they are not doing anything better than Sony in games which is what these machines are built for, not for spec war. PS4 and XB1 were utter bs in hw and pure junk yet they run RDR2. So the games library is what that matters most to the end consumers.
Qasar - Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - link
wow some one went on rant just to show how much they hate the Xbox/MS and love the PS/sonyThe Garden Variety - Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - link
It's just Quantumz0d with a new account. Same misspellings and weird punctuation.Silver5urfer - Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - link
How does that have any hint of "love" towards PS/Sony ?Why don't you name any single solid IP or game that makes anyone to buy Xbox ? For Nintendo everyone can name a lot, for Soyny also so many franchises with proper Single Player content even if they are highly deviated likes of God of War 2018 soft reboot which entirely ruins Kratos and has ultimate boring gameplay even then it was top game for PS Exclusive.
Just ignore everything and spin it right ?
Qasar - Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - link
" How does that have any hint of "love" towards PS/Sony ? "oh i dont know the constant bashing of MS and praise of sony ?
you do realize the the new xbox and ps5 both have practically the same under lying hardware right ?
i cant name any solid game for EITHER system, as i dont have any of them, or have any interest in the xbox or ps product lines.
but what ever.....
Silver5urfer - Wednesday, February 17, 2021 - link
Thanks for proving my point, I never mentioned that PS5 HW is different or anything. It was how MS game portfolio exists for masses. I don't even own a console, praise of sony lol, twisted argument for nothing since you don't have anything to add to the point I was making.Qasar - Wednesday, February 17, 2021 - link
and that sounds like you dont really have a point either, its just your own PERSONAL preference, and opinion. i have heard from friends that they like the PS platform cause of the games, and the same for the xbox platform, and even some argue back and forth about which is better, which, in the end, is personal preference.Silver5urfer - Friday, February 19, 2021 - link
LOL"have heard from friends that they like the PS platform cause of the games, and the same for the xbox platform,"
I asked you specifically which games on XBOX, you don't and you come & ask your friends what are those games for Xbox platform and say it's Pro Sony when I specifically mentioned even how rubbish they are handling their IPs like God of War for eg and Killzone is gone replaced by that crappy HZD.
Xbox is trash because it doesn't do anything better or exclusive than PC. And this is coming from a PC owner, only bought a PS2.
Qasar - Friday, February 19, 2021 - link
and again, YOUR PERSONAL OPINION, thats all. but what ever, keep hating xbox, and loveing PS. what everzodiacfml - Wednesday, February 17, 2021 - link
This is more advanced than anything right now due to the insane integration and 360mm chip size. Only affordable due to massive volumes and plan to sell this for several years (until they update it), and Sony/MS selling at a loss.Spunjji - Wednesday, February 17, 2021 - link
"since Soyny has some HW features cut off from their chip."They removed CPU features that they don't feel were needed. Big whoop.
I'm more interested in your repeated use of alt-right dog-whistles, like the obsession with "soy" and "woke" as insults. You sound worryingly invested in all this. Gears 5 was a great game, are you still mad about it having a GiRl?
Silver5urfer - Friday, February 19, 2021 - link
Because that's what Soyny has become of lately. They ban and censor lot of Japanese games because of their standards, The Last of Us 2 is the living proof of that which many fans of the prev PS4 remaster and PS3 title agree alike and the inherent bias of that stupid Game Awards was clear show on the power play from their upper management.And no Gears 5 is complete trash, it's not even Gears of War, they even removed War from the name. Steam also has low score (usually they do not have low scores on just because they are woke), and it's also woke trash and next that game lacks everything that made Gears of War shine, Testosterone and Intensity with atmosphere, gore, plot everything. Metacritic also has that game at sub par meh score.
"Great Game" top kek.
That IP is dead unless M$ wants to bring all Trilogy, Judgement to PC Win32 native like MCC.
nadim.kahwaji - Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - link
Great articles , hope Ian will write the GPU reviews , because really we missed this quality in GPUs section.Silver5urfer - Friday, February 19, 2021 - link
That is gone. A big shame, we never got insight into Nvidia Arch or AMD RDNA2. It's over. They only write if they are having incentive to, I think it's a covid related one.Why would AT not write anything on the GPU architectures at all ??? We got tons of Intel content and now this one, a simple guess is all that one needs.
Zizy - Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - link
Interesting that the CPU is the higher temperature part. Could have MS downclocked the chip to 3.4GHz or so, and increased GPU clocks to get say 12.5TF performance instead? Total power draw would be of course higher with that change, making console slightly less efficient, but max chip temperatures could remain the same at the same fan speed.It seems MS really did optimize perf/W quite a lot. I wonder what are the server chips getting in total. >=24 units seems even CPU could be cut a bit to say 6 CU for games that don't require such high performance, perhaps even with cut memory, so yields of such partly working parts would be near 100% in the end.
AntonErtl - Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - link
You find interesting things in unlikely places. In this review I found the answer to the question of the difference between Renoir and Lucienne: Lucienne has more refined power management. Thanks.watzupken - Wednesday, February 17, 2021 - link
I recall at least for Xbox, they've confirmed they are using RDNA2. One of the sources below:https://www.notebookcheck.net/The-Microsoft-Xbox-S...
Considering there are no RDNA chip that is greater than 40 CUs, I feel it will likely be utilizing RDNA2 which also features hardware accelerated RT. Of course one of the key feature, the Infinity Cache, is missing. On the Xbox Series X, the impact with the loss of the cache is soften by the higher memory BUS. As for PS5, I feel they may be using RDNA and the hardware for RT acceleration may be separate customization. This is just my guess.
powerarmour - Wednesday, February 17, 2021 - link
Sony confirmed RDNA 2 also, it was literally mentioned in their teardown video...I have no idea why folks seem to have this bizarre notion that their GPU is made out of glued together RAGE PRO's or something.
Spunjji - Thursday, February 18, 2021 - link
Some people heard that Sony had some features removed from the *CPU* cores that were deemed superfluous, and they decided it means their *GPU* wasn't RDNA 2.It freaks me out a bit - both consoles were known to have RDNA 2 long before release, but then Navi 21 released with Infinity Cache and suddenly the fanboy hivemind decided that an RDNA 2 GPU without IF isn't RDNA 2. Not sure how they'll react to the low-end iterations that get integrated into APUs later on.
zodiacfml - Wednesday, February 17, 2021 - link
There is a reason the Series S exists. Anyways, a nice modern chip. I wonder how much this could sell for as a PC.AMDNeedsCompetition - Wednesday, February 17, 2021 - link
Really cool article, thank you! Loads of interesting technical detail.Santoval - Wednesday, February 17, 2021 - link
Can you please elaborate on the purported "20 GDDR6 channels" of Xbox Series X? I am not quite sure, but does GDDR6 work internally the same way as LPDDR4(X)/LPDDR5 and (as far as I know) also DDR5? More specifically these memories split the standard 32-bit bus to two internal 16-bit buses. However these internal buses are *not* physical channels. For instance, a system with 2x32-bit channels of LPDDR5 will have 4x16-bit "channels" in total if we also account for how the memory works internally, but it will always be fed by 2 memory controllers, never more.The same appears to apply here, since I only count 10 GDDR6 controllers on the die. Yet Microsoft made a big point out of it, almost suggesting that their SoC has 20 physical memory channels fed by 20 memory controllers, not clarifying that splitting the 32-bit channel into two internally is just a neat efficiency technique. If that's indeed how GDDR6 works in general why have Nvidia and AMD always stuck to the physical memory channels & associated memory controllers of their GPUs?
If that's not how GDDR6 works normally (I looked it up in vain..) then how did MS double the memory channels without doubling the memory controllers? There is just *no* way each depicted GDDR6 controller on the die hides a second controller on the other side of the die right? No, that would be nuts..
Spunjji - Thursday, February 18, 2021 - link
I'm pretty sure you're correct about each memory controller operating a pair of 16-bit channels.MaikelSZ - Tuesday, February 23, 2021 - link
check this outcooltech.cubava.cu/2021/02/20/analisis-comparativo-de-los-chips-de-las-nuevas-consolas-en-progreso-2/
ramax - Friday, February 26, 2021 - link
It is interesting to see such a analysis on how it is engineered together. Comparing specs alone won't get anyone anywhere. Both consoles trade blows and have their own strong and weak points. Both shed their contribution on breakthrough implementations and do undoubtedly represent the current next-gen. Nonetheless in the end, all come to personal preference based on exclusive titles, controller, design and whatever other emotional and particular aspects as well on how their characteristics are presented in a marketing fashion and how one perceives them. Such aspects are impossible to measure objectively and discussions are frivolous. There is no best choice, nor there will ever be. Anyone who likes a particular console and can purchase it, should do so and will surely appreciate their decision. Anyone who wants a current next-gen console and can't make up own mind will enjoy any flavor available. The only opinion regarding these consoles that **may** not be skewed is that whichever be the customer pick, both the customer and AMD will be happy. We should just play and enjoy. Peace.AndrewIntel - Sunday, July 10, 2022 - link
this solution is based on a 12 inch wafer and in the future the industry will move to 18 inch wafers, which means higher utilization of the fab and better pricing per wafer and eventually better prices to the end user. This die per wafer calculator show the various options per wafer size: https://anysilicon.com/die-per-wafer-formula-free-...