I agree that this is great value. Shame about not including 2.5 GbE though. Ganesh, are you planning to review the AMD counterpart Deskmini X300 as well? (Despite being a bit older it still supports the latest Renoir APUs.) Personally I'm hoping for something like this based on Cezanne APUs to be launched at CES. It is great having socketed CPU in the Deskmini, but I'd also gladly buy a Cezanne-based successor to e.g. Asus PN50, Gigabyte Brix or ASRockInd 4x4box.
How would this compare to a new Mac Mini with M1? At the same price point the mac has less ram/storage but does have an arguably more powerful processor and HDMI 2.0 for 4K at 60Hz. The internal storage is likely not a factor anyway as most who use this as a HTPC will have external storage of some sort with their media on it. Any thoughts?
Huh? With the exception of single core performance, the M1 chip isn't "arguably more powerful" than any hexacore or octacore Intel desktop chip. Most media and "tech" sites only compare the M1 to the dual and quad core "mobile" (more accurately laptop) chips that Apple replaced in the MacBook Air and entry level Mac Mini and MacBook Pros. The hexacore and octacore desktop chips are clearly more powerful, and it was that CPU that was used here. And with 16 GB of RAM instead of 8 GB that is in the $699 Mac Mini, the comparison favors this device even more.
Further, I do not know if you missed it but this configuration has a pair of 4K displayports at 60Hz as well as a third 4K output at 30Hz and a 4th lower resolution output.
Most people will use this as a HTPC? Speak for yourself. It would work just fine for general purpose computing, and you can get an entry level graphics card to make it suitable for 1080p gaming for under $100. (Meanwhile the ARM CPU will make macOS even worse for gaming than before). The M1 Mac is a great accomplishment, and as a result we will see more ARM-based Windows, ChromeOS and Linux laptops starting maybe in late 2021 when hopefully SOMEONE will come out with a design that includes at least 2 Cortex X1 cores, or failing that more than 4 Cortex A78 cores. But devices like this are precisely why Wintel will continue to have a clear majority of the market.
That’s possibly one of the best possible arrangements for the m.2 slot then as the metal tray will be an excellent heat sink. You could even add a bit of thermally conductive foam (make sure it’s not the electrically conductive type) to help with heat transfer to the tray.
The Ultra M.2 slot is on the top side of the board. That is the one used with Comet Lake CPUs. The slot you are referring to is the Hyper M.2 (PCIe 4.0 x4) slot which is usable only when the Rocket Lake CPUs come around.
Its AMD relative the A300 was my main machine for a while, and had it been easier to get Zen 2 desktop APUs I might still be using it. Quiet (given a decent fan), cheap, tiny (obvs), reasonably expandable, gets the job done--about all I can ask for from a work desktop.
The 4000 Series Pro APUs are pretty well available in Germany, from reputable online retailers. I can get the R5 Pro 4650G for 20% more than the equivalent R5 3600 (200€ vs 240€ roughly). That would be my sweet spot, personally. For 8 cores it's also roughly 20% (280€ vs 340€) but for that price difference, you could get a nice used GPU already that will maybe game better. I personally could never justify a GPU-less build, although I am eternally curious about them and plot one out once every couple of months.... and then I look at benchmarks of dGPU vs iGPU and stop. :D
I didn’t see it in the article so here are the specs:
155 x 155 x 80 mm (1.92L)
Not bad, though for most low to mid-level use cases it’d be far cheaper to buy a used Lenovo or Dell USFF PC - these have even less volume at around 1.1L but are slightly larger and flatter (around 180x180x35mm)
For SFF with GPU I still prefer something like the K39 mITX chassis on the low end which comes in at 3L but allows you to use most full-sized GPUs (but for now possibly not the nVidia 3000 series).
I've been rocking the FT03-Mini and while it is an absolute nightmare to work inside of (and I question my sanity for why I put myself through owning it) it is still a very effective ITX chassis for the size, capable of 10.5" videocards, multiple hard drives (plus two m2 drives you can mount to most current motherboards) while using a single 140mm fan to cool everything. Realistically the highest TDP CPU you want to use is around 88-watts as anything more you will stress any closed loop cooler with a 25mm radiator (the max the case can accept) and need to go to a heatsink of some sort with another dedicated fan.
I think the additional angle here is that of a low-cost platform that can take advantage of the RKL-S CPUs coming in 2021. Personally, I also think it is not a great choice to upgrade for those who already have the 310. It is meant more for folks getting their first mSTX machine.
I had the SST-AR11 cooler in my Silverstone FT03-Mini and was pretty disappointed (partially due to the chassis inherently poor ventilation) and equally disappointed by closed-loop coolers due to the 25mm thickness limitation of radiators. After spending seemingly hundreds of dollars and way too much time hunting for a thermal solution, some forum posts directed me to try the NT06-Pro, which would theoretically fit this mSTX chassis as long as there is no interference with the power supply.
It performs incredible well as you position the fan under the fins and blow the heat away from the motherboard instead of onto it, giving it somewhat of the beneficial effect of a tower-style cooler.
I had the FT03 mini as well. There really isn't much of a way to cool the CPU in that chassis. Same with the GPU. It's a slightly worse SG05 with less venting (I guess a token sliver of vents was added above the IO plate). Why they didn't use the fullsize FT03 layout to preserve some semblance of CPU heatsink clearance? Who knows. Maybe they had the SG05 tooling on hand already.
Coming from a FT03 fullsize (which I have a litany of grievances with, even though I liked the case overall), the mini just missed the mark for me.
I agree with your sentiments. And I still question my sanity for living with it but I really do love it. It's beautiful. The key to making it work is obviously using a GPU with a blower, which is now virtually impossible to find as even nVidia has abandoned the Titan-class vapor chamber coolers. Every bit of excess heat needs to be exhausted from this case and a GPU blower actually HELPS cool the rest of the case while gaming.
They better be making HUGE dies to still be stringing that one out. Die sizes shrunk dramatically after Intel's last leap with Sandy Bridge because $$$.
Asrock has released a BIOS 2.0 for the Deskmini H470 with "Support 11th Gen processors". The second M.2 slot on the backside now appears in the BIOS settings and in HWInfo, but I don't know yet if it is functional with Comet Lake.
Intel 400 series chipset M.2 slots connect to the PCH and not the CPU. So the second M.2 slot should work without problems. I am looking forward to seeing what the Intel 11th Gen Core processors' CPU PCIe 4.0 x4 slots can do for the M.2 slot when the 500 series motherboards are available.
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ingwe - Tuesday, December 29, 2020 - link
What a great value! I am impressed.JfromImaginstuff - Tuesday, December 29, 2020 - link
Seems pretty darn goodAdditionalPylons - Tuesday, December 29, 2020 - link
I agree that this is great value. Shame about not including 2.5 GbE though. Ganesh, are you planning to review the AMD counterpart Deskmini X300 as well? (Despite being a bit older it still supports the latest Renoir APUs.) Personally I'm hoping for something like this based on Cezanne APUs to be launched at CES. It is great having socketed CPU in the Deskmini, but I'd also gladly buy a Cezanne-based successor to e.g. Asus PN50, Gigabyte Brix or ASRockInd 4x4box.powerarmour - Tuesday, December 29, 2020 - link
Yep, not surprised it's the 'Intel' variant here...lmcd - Tuesday, December 29, 2020 - link
As a 2400G user, it makes sense why they didn't review it. It's dated.And Ian is the one that has the OEM-only APUs.
ganeshts - Tuesday, December 29, 2020 - link
I have a DeskMini X300 sample that arrived just a few days back along with a Renoir APU. Review should be out sometime in January.AdditionalPylons - Tuesday, December 29, 2020 - link
Great! Looking forward to that! And thanks a lot for this review as well!osteopathic1 - Tuesday, December 29, 2020 - link
How would this compare to a new Mac Mini with M1?At the same price point the mac has less ram/storage but does have an arguably more powerful processor and HDMI 2.0 for 4K at 60Hz.
The internal storage is likely not a factor anyway as most who use this as a HTPC will have external storage of some sort with their media on it.
Any thoughts?
fishingbait15 - Thursday, December 31, 2020 - link
Huh? With the exception of single core performance, the M1 chip isn't "arguably more powerful" than any hexacore or octacore Intel desktop chip. Most media and "tech" sites only compare the M1 to the dual and quad core "mobile" (more accurately laptop) chips that Apple replaced in the MacBook Air and entry level Mac Mini and MacBook Pros. The hexacore and octacore desktop chips are clearly more powerful, and it was that CPU that was used here. And with 16 GB of RAM instead of 8 GB that is in the $699 Mac Mini, the comparison favors this device even more.Further, I do not know if you missed it but this configuration has a pair of 4K displayports at 60Hz as well as a third 4K output at 30Hz and a 4th lower resolution output.
Most people will use this as a HTPC? Speak for yourself. It would work just fine for general purpose computing, and you can get an entry level graphics card to make it suitable for 1080p gaming for under $100. (Meanwhile the ARM CPU will make macOS even worse for gaming than before). The M1 Mac is a great accomplishment, and as a result we will see more ARM-based Windows, ChromeOS and Linux laptops starting maybe in late 2021 when hopefully SOMEONE will come out with a design that includes at least 2 Cortex X1 cores, or failing that more than 4 Cortex A78 cores. But devices like this are precisely why Wintel will continue to have a clear majority of the market.
wpcoe - Tuesday, December 29, 2020 - link
It looks like the motherboard tray is a solid piece of metal closely beneath the M.2 slot. How is the heat dissipation for an M.2 SSD?Tomatotech - Tuesday, December 29, 2020 - link
That’s possibly one of the best possible arrangements for the m.2 slot then as the metal tray will be an excellent heat sink. You could even add a bit of thermally conductive foam (make sure it’s not the electrically conductive type) to help with heat transfer to the tray.ganeshts - Tuesday, December 29, 2020 - link
The Ultra M.2 slot is on the top side of the board. That is the one used with Comet Lake CPUs. The slot you are referring to is the Hyper M.2 (PCIe 4.0 x4) slot which is usable only when the Rocket Lake CPUs come around.twotwotwo - Tuesday, December 29, 2020 - link
Its AMD relative the A300 was my main machine for a while, and had it been easier to get Zen 2 desktop APUs I might still be using it. Quiet (given a decent fan), cheap, tiny (obvs), reasonably expandable, gets the job done--about all I can ask for from a work desktop.Death666Angel - Tuesday, December 29, 2020 - link
The 4000 Series Pro APUs are pretty well available in Germany, from reputable online retailers. I can get the R5 Pro 4650G for 20% more than the equivalent R5 3600 (200€ vs 240€ roughly). That would be my sweet spot, personally. For 8 cores it's also roughly 20% (280€ vs 340€) but for that price difference, you could get a nice used GPU already that will maybe game better. I personally could never justify a GPU-less build, although I am eternally curious about them and plot one out once every couple of months.... and then I look at benchmarks of dGPU vs iGPU and stop. :DTomatotech - Tuesday, December 29, 2020 - link
I didn’t see it in the article so here are the specs:155 x 155 x 80 mm (1.92L)
Not bad, though for most low to mid-level use cases it’d be far cheaper to buy a used Lenovo or Dell USFF PC - these have even less volume at around 1.1L but are slightly larger and flatter (around 180x180x35mm)
For SFF with GPU I still prefer something like the K39 mITX chassis on the low end which comes in at 3L but allows you to use most full-sized GPUs (but for now possibly not the nVidia 3000 series).
Samus - Tuesday, December 29, 2020 - link
I've been rocking the FT03-Mini and while it is an absolute nightmare to work inside of (and I question my sanity for why I put myself through owning it) it is still a very effective ITX chassis for the size, capable of 10.5" videocards, multiple hard drives (plus two m2 drives you can mount to most current motherboards) while using a single 140mm fan to cool everything. Realistically the highest TDP CPU you want to use is around 88-watts as anything more you will stress any closed loop cooler with a 25mm radiator (the max the case can accept) and need to go to a heatsink of some sort with another dedicated fan.Obrut - Tuesday, December 29, 2020 - link
It will be interesting to see a comparison with ASRock Jupiter H470, which has a much different form factor and cooling solution.M O B - Tuesday, December 29, 2020 - link
I have a Deskmini 310w--is the UHD 630 on 10th gen CPUs any faster than the UHD 630 on older CPUs?If not, then it seems like this iteration basically adds some USB 3.0 ports versus my current build.
ganeshts - Wednesday, December 30, 2020 - link
I think the additional angle here is that of a low-cost platform that can take advantage of the RKL-S CPUs coming in 2021. Personally, I also think it is not a great choice to upgrade for those who already have the 310. It is meant more for folks getting their first mSTX machine.Samus - Tuesday, December 29, 2020 - link
I had the SST-AR11 cooler in my Silverstone FT03-Mini and was pretty disappointed (partially due to the chassis inherently poor ventilation) and equally disappointed by closed-loop coolers due to the 25mm thickness limitation of radiators. After spending seemingly hundreds of dollars and way too much time hunting for a thermal solution, some forum posts directed me to try the NT06-Pro, which would theoretically fit this mSTX chassis as long as there is no interference with the power supply.It performs incredible well as you position the fan under the fins and blow the heat away from the motherboard instead of onto it, giving it somewhat of the beneficial effect of a tower-style cooler.
jeremyshaw - Tuesday, December 29, 2020 - link
I had the FT03 mini as well. There really isn't much of a way to cool the CPU in that chassis. Same with the GPU. It's a slightly worse SG05 with less venting (I guess a token sliver of vents was added above the IO plate). Why they didn't use the fullsize FT03 layout to preserve some semblance of CPU heatsink clearance? Who knows. Maybe they had the SG05 tooling on hand already.Coming from a FT03 fullsize (which I have a litany of grievances with, even though I liked the case overall), the mini just missed the mark for me.
Samus - Wednesday, December 30, 2020 - link
I agree with your sentiments. And I still question my sanity for living with it but I really do love it. It's beautiful. The key to making it work is obviously using a GPU with a blower, which is now virtually impossible to find as even nVidia has abandoned the Titan-class vapor chamber coolers. Every bit of excess heat needs to be exhausted from this case and a GPU blower actually HELPS cool the rest of the case while gaming.Danvelopment - Friday, January 1, 2021 - link
"14nm (optimized)"[chuckles in an optimised fashion]
Danvelopment - Friday, January 1, 2021 - link
They better be making HUGE dies to still be stringing that one out. Die sizes shrunk dramatically after Intel's last leap with Sandy Bridge because $$$.Quango - Wednesday, January 27, 2021 - link
Asrock has released a BIOS 2.0 for the Deskmini H470 with "Support 11th Gen processors".The second M.2 slot on the backside now appears in the BIOS settings and in HWInfo, but I don't know yet if it is functional with Comet Lake.
flee2021 - Thursday, February 4, 2021 - link
Intel 400 series chipset M.2 slots connect to the PCH and not the CPU. So the second M.2 slot should work without problems. I am looking forward to seeing what the Intel 11th Gen Core processors' CPU PCIe 4.0 x4 slots can do for the M.2 slot when the 500 series motherboards are available.