Kinda wish they would do 8 cores Zen+discrete in workstation laptop and maybe gaming.
In high end gaming laptops , if they use an interposer for GPU+HBM, they might as well add a CPU die too. A huge APU doesn't seem doable with dual channel DDR4.
"The Envy was the most expensive AMD notebook on display, offering a typical HP premium design ID with a near-top line A12-9700P under the hood. This uses two 2nd Gen Excavator cores for four threads, a configuration called Bristol Ridge, and runs at 2.5 GHz base with 3.4 GHz turbo on the cores."
Are AMD's modules no longer two cores? Has the FX-8350 been reclassified to a 4 core / 8 thread CPU?
All Bulldozer->Excavator modules have 2 INT units with a shared FP unit.
1 INT unit is used to essentially describe what ultimately represents 1 "core" (otherwise older CPUs without FP units like the ARM9 would be considered.. zero-cores? no-cores?).
Why AT decided to change that convention to 1 INT unit = 1 thread is beyond me..
The ALU would be used to drive program logic rather than do actual computation. In this regard, the design has the potential to drive more threads, but unfortunately, the compute performance of the threads is bottlenecked by the shared SIMD unit.
There is no official naming convention that has been standardized to make the core count = integer units. So, AT did not change any convention to any other. He's a veteran and like most veterans of the industry, we all know that an AMD "core" is really a module and a module has 2 int units and 1fp unit to make up one "core", but since it's not a typical core, they deem it module.
AMD's marketing, at the time, seemed to want to hype up the product, and determined it would be find to call their quad module chips "8-core" due to the fact that it has 8 integer units, but unlike a standard 8-core chip, it only has quad-core floating point units, which is why that class-action lawsuit arose, regarding false advertising by AMD when referring to their chips as 8-core. Not sure how that lawsuit turned out, if it even has yet.
Actually, each module has two int and two float units, people seem to be mistaking the FPU, of which there are 2 per module, with the SIMD, which can process either ints or floats, but is a vector rather than a scalar unit, which is shared one per module.
AMD's offering of desktops and larger laptops is competing Intel over crumbs. Intel has been focusing on low powered chips, less than 15w tdp, but AMD is not following suit.
I'm curious what makes you say that AMD is not following suit. They have been addressing low power and efficiency for many years. The FX9800P is a 15W design. The 9700P, 9600P, and 9210/9010 are all 15w parts. They also have 10W, 9W, 8W, 6W, 5W, 4.5W, 3.95W, 2.8W, etc.
Quite frankly, although I would very much like to purchase an AMD CPU, I would never do so because their CPU's have got a very weak single-threaded performance.
For the record, using CPUID Version 15.01.64 (CPUZ Benchmark), my 6200U (Skylake) scored 1375 marks Single Threaded and 2706 marks Multi-T.
I 'd never buy a laptop that came with a CPU with weak single-threaded performance. I simply know too much about PC's to do that, however, it is easy to see how a tech inept person would do so lured by the system's ultra low price.
Can't really see though any tech savvy person buying a laptop with an AMD CPU. That would be tantamount to shooting one's own foot with a gun. Note that I am quite positively predisposed to AMD, just not tech inept.
Even in the desktop market, the 3 year old, $60 Pentium G3258 in STOCK configuration has higher single threaded performance than just about any AMD CPU, even those that cost $200.
In mobile AMD actually makes more sense to me because even Skylake has weak GPU performance compared to AMD APU's, especially in the 15-25w segment.
Agreed. AMD with this being the ultimate Bulldozer design, made to be efficient and low power, actually does a good job in the mobile market. It doesn't have to perform like an i7 to be recognized in the mobile industry. It simply has to perform in a satisfactory level for the average consumer for it to be a force in the industry. The fact that it does perform at a satisfactory level, while also providing better graphic capabilities, all while costing less than the equivalent Intel part and you see why this is actually a good design/choice for something like a notebook/ultrabook. Pair up a Bristol Ridge APU with an SSD and I bet just about everyone will be happy with it.
From what I've been able to gather the APU R5s are equivalent or worse than the Skylake 510 and they are included in almost all of the AMD APUs except for the high end.
AMD has a reputation of having the fastest integrated graphics, and they do, but the models competing at the low end, where it actually matters, don't get that IGP.
By the time you reach the high end you suddenly find there's low end Intels with better single threaded in 2 or 2+2 core with low end discrete chips faster than the high end AMD IGP.
Hopefully someone can prove me wrong but I've been struggling to find actual comparisons between AMD R5 and anything Intel, and from what I have been able to find it doesn't look good for AMD.
On the GFX side, you have it backwards. Intel has the fastest integrated graphics but it is only included in super top end SKU's and very difficult to actually find in the wild. Skylake Iris Pro is faster than any AMD integrated graphics, but good luck getting it.
I want my next laptop to be a workstation class laptop, but with NO DISCREET GRAPHICS, and instead have Iris Pro. I found you can actually order a laptop like this from Lenovo, but it gets really expensive.
Although you made the right decision for your personal standards from what knowledge you've gained about hardware, you're a little too hard on AMD this time around. For AMD to reach first gen i7 performance single core, is a great thing. To offer dual modules, with 4 integer units, in their Bristol Ridge chips for low power, budget notebooks, it will provide enough performance, where if you never told the user what was in it, I don't think they'd ever suspect it was an AMD part. Considering that it lowers the overall cost of the unit by a decent amount compared to an Intel part, and it's actually really good buy.
A friend of mine was looking for a new PC. Not for gaming, but for general web browsing and MS Office. He wanted something immediately, so I went with him to Best Buy and looked at his options for his budget. We found an HP all-in-one unit with a Bristol Ridge CPU. Dual module. He is extremely happy with it, says it does everything he wants and is so much faster than his old PC used to be. To him, whether it's Intel, AMD, Via, he doesn't care...what he got does what he needs and only cost him about $350. He was happy.
So, if you can see what I'm saying...yes, enthusiasts or performance oriented people who need to have the best obviously won't want this CPU, but for those who are looking for performance/dollar then absolutely this is a great CPU.
I think that Raven Ridge will be vastly superior, but it would still be kinda cool to have a piece of history and have the chip that represents what the Bulldozer architecture should have been from the very beginning. It is the last of it's kind and the most mature as well, the best iteration of Bulldozer, which, imo, is a rather cool concept, it just had extremely poor and premature execution.
Not sure if any of those laptops came with FreeSync, but just a couple weeks ago a relative (student) asked me to buy him a laptop, Bestbuy was running an offer on this:
for $599 plus an additional $150 for students. Ended up paying $449 + tax. A10 FX with R7, FHD IPS display with FreeSync, 8GB DDR4-2133. The only missing piece is an SSD which could be easily upgraded.
Oooh, I've been wondering if Freesync would show up in laptops and IPS no less, simply awesome imo. The least expensive G-sync I've found usually starts around $1300 with Asus being the primary manufacturer that uses the technology. I keep wondering if Freesync could increase AMD's marketshare of the low to mid-range budget gamers since getting only 30 something fps would not make a game look choppy.
I hope to see more Freesync laptops and with whatever new mobile GPU they have planned.
Agreed! As competition heats up for affordable FreeSync solutions, I am hoping it will become an essential bullet point for the spec sheet for almost all displays. Granted not all implementations are equal, but even a 40-60 range on an IPS display beats the stuffing out of no adaptive sync at all - especially if it becomes standard. Other display types and premium IPS units will of course have the option for higher refresh rates and wider sync ranges, which will give higher-end models a selling point without eliminating the possibility of sync at the bottom.
"The APU has support for dual channel DDR4-1866, and I'd half expect this 8GB model only had one memory module, but the rear of the device had a large enough section for users to add in their own memory. " It seems to be one channel soldered and one channel with a SO-DIMM slot.
I know intel does dynamic allocation (plus a small statis amount of like 64-128MB) -- and it is all configurable in the BIOS -- I don't know if AMD's support it but it might be that they do and it just isn't enabled.
You know, I feel that AMD needs to tweak the receipt a little bit. mainly more CPU performance even if GPU performance was a little less...
While the current mix is good for gaming, low cost gaming.. but in general gaming still is not a number one priority for 90% of any notebook buyer, and even some small builds (like HTPC)... CPU Performance and Battery life is more important.. I'm not saying GPU isn't important... but having the strongest CPU performance with 85-90% of maximum GPU performance of current strongest one with the same battery life is a better mix...
AFAIK, AMD's Zen based APU's will maxes out at 4C/8T with a strong Polaris based GPU, while the GPU will mostly be the strongest in any iGPU.. we're not sure about the CPU part. The point that Zen modules are currently a 4C/8T so it might be hard for an APU to get more than 4Cores... an 8C/16T is too large ( and have a high TDP ) to get it with a good enough GPU with the right balance and because of current ZEN module size, we can't get a 6C/12T one.. so the only way is to have a higher frequency 4C/8T which will mean higher TDP
It's quite a coincidence that Currys PC World's latest ad mentions an A12 laptop... ;) it's the Envy x360 15-ar052sa which supports FreeSync but only comes with one DIMM, sadly, however the maintenance and service guide hints at a second available slot.
Really wish there were more 14" and 13.3" AMD laptops or tablets that had better than 768P screens. I find that much more interesting than tablet level CPU's in 15.6" or 17" chassis.
I have been on the internet lately, looking for something to read and that is how I came across your site and saw this article of yours. So, I decided to see what it says and I find out that it is so amazing. You really did a great work in on your site and the <a href="https://mstwotoes.com/02tvseries/">article... you posted on it. You really take your time in posting this article or and they are clearly detailed. Once again, you are good at article writing and I will be coming back to view more article updates on your site.
I have been on the internet lately, looking for something to read and that is how I came across your site and saw this article of yours. So, I decided to see what it says and I find out that it is so amazing. You really did a great work in on your site and the <a href="https://mstwotoes.com/02tvseries/">article... you posted on it. You really take your time in posting this article or and they are clearly detailed. Once again, you are good at article writing and I will be coming back to view more article updates on your site.
We’ve updated our terms. By continuing to use the site and/or by logging into your account, you agree to the Site’s updated Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.
Facebook
Twitter
RSS
40 Comments
Back to Article
jjj - Monday, September 19, 2016 - link
Kinda wish they would do 8 cores Zen+discrete in workstation laptop and maybe gaming.In high end gaming laptops , if they use an interposer for GPU+HBM, they might as well add a CPU die too. A huge APU doesn't seem doable with dual channel DDR4.
ddriver - Monday, September 19, 2016 - link
Kinda wish they removed all brand stickers from laptops, I hate those ugly things.Shadow7037932 - Tuesday, September 20, 2016 - link
You can remove them yourself. It takes like 30 seconds to do.joex4444 - Monday, September 19, 2016 - link
> 8GB of DDR4-2133, which is imminently better than a 4GB optionCould you have meant "immensely" instead?
brookheather - Monday, September 19, 2016 - link
He meant to write "eminently".ddriver - Monday, September 19, 2016 - link
Still poor choice considering the popularity of the term, or the lack thereof. Marginally or tangibly would be a better fit.owan - Monday, September 19, 2016 - link
More likely meant "Eminently" (adv): to a notable degree; very.MLSCrow - Monday, September 19, 2016 - link
Agreed. That's what I believe he meant as well.ShieTar - Thursday, September 22, 2016 - link
In the end, all adjectives are equally pointless. He meant "8GB is better than 4GB".przemo_li - Sunday, September 25, 2016 - link
(> 8GB 4GB)#t
Yuriman - Monday, September 19, 2016 - link
"The Envy was the most expensive AMD notebook on display, offering a typical HP premium design ID with a near-top line A12-9700P under the hood. This uses two 2nd Gen Excavator cores for four threads, a configuration called Bristol Ridge, and runs at 2.5 GHz base with 3.4 GHz turbo on the cores."Are AMD's modules no longer two cores? Has the FX-8350 been reclassified to a 4 core / 8 thread CPU?
ToTTenTranz - Monday, September 19, 2016 - link
All Bulldozer->Excavator modules have 2 INT units with a shared FP unit.1 INT unit is used to essentially describe what ultimately represents 1 "core" (otherwise older CPUs without FP units like the ARM9 would be considered.. zero-cores? no-cores?).
Why AT decided to change that convention to 1 INT unit = 1 thread is beyond me..
ddriver - Monday, September 19, 2016 - link
The ALU would be used to drive program logic rather than do actual computation. In this regard, the design has the potential to drive more threads, but unfortunately, the compute performance of the threads is bottlenecked by the shared SIMD unit.MLSCrow - Monday, September 19, 2016 - link
There is no official naming convention that has been standardized to make the core count = integer units. So, AT did not change any convention to any other. He's a veteran and like most veterans of the industry, we all know that an AMD "core" is really a module and a module has 2 int units and 1fp unit to make up one "core", but since it's not a typical core, they deem it module.AMD's marketing, at the time, seemed to want to hype up the product, and determined it would be find to call their quad module chips "8-core" due to the fact that it has 8 integer units, but unlike a standard 8-core chip, it only has quad-core floating point units, which is why that class-action lawsuit arose, regarding false advertising by AMD when referring to their chips as 8-core. Not sure how that lawsuit turned out, if it even has yet.
ddriver - Monday, September 19, 2016 - link
Actually, each module has two int and two float units, people seem to be mistaking the FPU, of which there are 2 per module, with the SIMD, which can process either ints or floats, but is a vector rather than a scalar unit, which is shared one per module.Ian Cutress - Monday, September 19, 2016 - link
It's a module for two threads. I've had my head stuck in other microarchitecture things this week, forgot to reset brain on terminology. Updated :)pugster - Monday, September 19, 2016 - link
AMD's offering of desktops and larger laptops is competing Intel over crumbs. Intel has been focusing on low powered chips, less than 15w tdp, but AMD is not following suit.MLSCrow - Monday, September 19, 2016 - link
I'm curious what makes you say that AMD is not following suit. They have been addressing low power and efficiency for many years. The FX9800P is a 15W design. The 9700P, 9600P, and 9210/9010 are all 15w parts. They also have 10W, 9W, 8W, 6W, 5W, 4.5W, 3.95W, 2.8W, etc.Achaios - Monday, September 19, 2016 - link
I bought a brand-new 500 euro laptop this last August. CPU is i5-6200U and GPU is a Radeon R5-M330.My buying guide was this: https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html
Quite frankly, although I would very much like to purchase an AMD CPU, I would never do so because their CPU's have got a very weak single-threaded performance.
For the record, using CPUID Version 15.01.64 (CPUZ Benchmark), my 6200U (Skylake) scored 1375 marks Single Threaded and 2706 marks Multi-T.
I 'd never buy a laptop that came with a CPU with weak single-threaded performance. I simply know too much about PC's to do that, however, it is easy to see how a tech inept person would do so lured by the system's ultra low price.
Can't really see though any tech savvy person buying a laptop with an AMD CPU. That would be tantamount to shooting one's own foot with a gun. Note that I am quite positively predisposed to AMD, just not tech inept.
Samus - Monday, September 19, 2016 - link
Even in the desktop market, the 3 year old, $60 Pentium G3258 in STOCK configuration has higher single threaded performance than just about any AMD CPU, even those that cost $200.In mobile AMD actually makes more sense to me because even Skylake has weak GPU performance compared to AMD APU's, especially in the 15-25w segment.
MLSCrow - Monday, September 19, 2016 - link
Agreed. AMD with this being the ultimate Bulldozer design, made to be efficient and low power, actually does a good job in the mobile market. It doesn't have to perform like an i7 to be recognized in the mobile industry. It simply has to perform in a satisfactory level for the average consumer for it to be a force in the industry. The fact that it does perform at a satisfactory level, while also providing better graphic capabilities, all while costing less than the equivalent Intel part and you see why this is actually a good design/choice for something like a notebook/ultrabook. Pair up a Bristol Ridge APU with an SSD and I bet just about everyone will be happy with it.Danvelopment - Monday, September 19, 2016 - link
Does it, though?From what I've been able to gather the APU R5s are equivalent or worse than the Skylake 510 and they are included in almost all of the AMD APUs except for the high end.
AMD has a reputation of having the fastest integrated graphics, and they do, but the models competing at the low end, where it actually matters, don't get that IGP.
By the time you reach the high end you suddenly find there's low end Intels with better single threaded in 2 or 2+2 core with low end discrete chips faster than the high end AMD IGP.
Hopefully someone can prove me wrong but I've been struggling to find actual comparisons between AMD R5 and anything Intel, and from what I have been able to find it doesn't look good for AMD.
Michael Bay - Wednesday, September 21, 2016 - link
I asked myself that recently, and it turns out R5 is sorta kinda capable as a really low-settings solution. Even runs GTA5, apparently.extide - Thursday, December 29, 2016 - link
On the GFX side, you have it backwards. Intel has the fastest integrated graphics but it is only included in super top end SKU's and very difficult to actually find in the wild. Skylake Iris Pro is faster than any AMD integrated graphics, but good luck getting it.I want my next laptop to be a workstation class laptop, but with NO DISCREET GRAPHICS, and instead have Iris Pro. I found you can actually order a laptop like this from Lenovo, but it gets really expensive.
MLSCrow - Monday, September 19, 2016 - link
Although you made the right decision for your personal standards from what knowledge you've gained about hardware, you're a little too hard on AMD this time around. For AMD to reach first gen i7 performance single core, is a great thing. To offer dual modules, with 4 integer units, in their Bristol Ridge chips for low power, budget notebooks, it will provide enough performance, where if you never told the user what was in it, I don't think they'd ever suspect it was an AMD part. Considering that it lowers the overall cost of the unit by a decent amount compared to an Intel part, and it's actually really good buy.A friend of mine was looking for a new PC. Not for gaming, but for general web browsing and MS Office. He wanted something immediately, so I went with him to Best Buy and looked at his options for his budget. We found an HP all-in-one unit with a Bristol Ridge CPU. Dual module. He is extremely happy with it, says it does everything he wants and is so much faster than his old PC used to be. To him, whether it's Intel, AMD, Via, he doesn't care...what he got does what he needs and only cost him about $350. He was happy.
So, if you can see what I'm saying...yes, enthusiasts or performance oriented people who need to have the best obviously won't want this CPU, but for those who are looking for performance/dollar then absolutely this is a great CPU.
I think that Raven Ridge will be vastly superior, but it would still be kinda cool to have a piece of history and have the chip that represents what the Bulldozer architecture should have been from the very beginning. It is the last of it's kind and the most mature as well, the best iteration of Bulldozer, which, imo, is a rather cool concept, it just had extremely poor and premature execution.
Memo.Ray - Monday, September 19, 2016 - link
Not sure if any of those laptops came with FreeSync, but just a couple weeks ago a relative (student) asked me to buy him a laptop, Bestbuy was running an offer on this:http://www.bestbuy.com/site/hp-envy-x360-2-in-1-15...
for $599 plus an additional $150 for students. Ended up paying $449 + tax. A10 FX with R7, FHD IPS display with FreeSync, 8GB DDR4-2133. The only missing piece is an SSD which could be easily upgraded.
xeroshadow - Monday, September 19, 2016 - link
Oooh, I've been wondering if Freesync would show up in laptops and IPS no less, simply awesome imo. The least expensive G-sync I've found usually starts around $1300 with Asus being the primary manufacturer that uses the technology. I keep wondering if Freesync could increase AMD's marketshare of the low to mid-range budget gamers since getting only 30 something fps would not make a game look choppy.I hope to see more Freesync laptops and with whatever new mobile GPU they have planned.
Alexvrb - Tuesday, September 20, 2016 - link
Agreed! As competition heats up for affordable FreeSync solutions, I am hoping it will become an essential bullet point for the spec sheet for almost all displays. Granted not all implementations are equal, but even a 40-60 range on an IPS display beats the stuffing out of no adaptive sync at all - especially if it becomes standard. Other display types and premium IPS units will of course have the option for higher refresh rates and wider sync ranges, which will give higher-end models a selling point without eliminating the possibility of sync at the bottom.yuhong - Monday, September 19, 2016 - link
"The APU has support for dual channel DDR4-1866, and I'd half expect this 8GB model only had one memory module, but the rear of the device had a large enough section for users to add in their own memory. "It seems to be one channel soldered and one channel with a SO-DIMM slot.
sheh - Monday, September 19, 2016 - link
1GB of memory space taken in that HP desktop?!RaichuPls - Tuesday, September 20, 2016 - link
That's the RAM for the iGPU.sheh - Tuesday, September 20, 2016 - link
Isn't that dynamically allocated?extide - Thursday, December 29, 2016 - link
I know intel does dynamic allocation (plus a small statis amount of like 64-128MB) -- and it is all configurable in the BIOS -- I don't know if AMD's support it but it might be that they do and it just isn't enabled.Xajel - Tuesday, September 20, 2016 - link
You know, I feel that AMD needs to tweak the receipt a little bit. mainly more CPU performance even if GPU performance was a little less...While the current mix is good for gaming, low cost gaming.. but in general gaming still is not a number one priority for 90% of any notebook buyer, and even some small builds (like HTPC)... CPU Performance and Battery life is more important.. I'm not saying GPU isn't important... but having the strongest CPU performance with 85-90% of maximum GPU performance of current strongest one with the same battery life is a better mix...
AFAIK, AMD's Zen based APU's will maxes out at 4C/8T with a strong Polaris based GPU, while the GPU will mostly be the strongest in any iGPU.. we're not sure about the CPU part.
The point that Zen modules are currently a 4C/8T so it might be hard for an APU to get more than 4Cores... an 8C/16T is too large ( and have a high TDP ) to get it with a good enough GPU with the right balance and because of current ZEN module size, we can't get a 6C/12T one.. so the only way is to have a higher frequency 4C/8T which will mean higher TDP
silverblue - Tuesday, September 20, 2016 - link
It's quite a coincidence that Currys PC World's latest ad mentions an A12 laptop... ;) it's the Envy x360 15-ar052sa which supports FreeSync but only comes with one DIMM, sadly, however the maintenance and service guide hints at a second available slot.Oxford Guy - Wednesday, September 21, 2016 - link
AMD has only itself to blame for allowing OEMs to ship APUs with single channel RAM setups. AMD should make its CPUs require dual channel operation.superunknown98 - Friday, September 23, 2016 - link
Really wish there were more 14" and 13.3" AMD laptops or tablets that had better than 768P screens. I find that much more interesting than tablet level CPU's in 15.6" or 17" chassis.ejas147 - Monday, August 28, 2017 - link
AMD nice work But much can be done and achieved https://www.techfiver.com/free-music-apps-best-mob...Prince2ew - Wednesday, December 2, 2020 - link
I have been on the internet lately, looking for something to read and that is how I came across your site and saw this article of yours. So, I decided to see what it says and I find out that it is so amazing. You really did a great work in on your site and the <a href="https://mstwotoes.com/02tvseries/">article... you posted on it. You really take your time in posting this article or and they are clearly detailed. Once again, you are good at article writing and I will be coming back to view more article updates on your site.Prince2ew - Wednesday, December 2, 2020 - link
I have been on the internet lately, looking for something to read and that is how I came across your site and saw this article of yours. So, I decided to see what it says and I find out that it is so amazing. You really did a great work in on your site and the <a href="https://mstwotoes.com/02tvseries/">article... you posted on it. You really take your time in posting this article or and they are clearly detailed. Once again, you are good at article writing and I will be coming back to view more article updates on your site.