Yes, and the target market (gamers) for this monitor demands TN panels due to a lot of other reasons (response time and refresh rates are much better, lower input lag - all the things that gamers want)
Actually, input lag on an IPS can also be low. Dell has some very good (and also very bad) monitors in this regard. It's got more to do with the actual electronics inside than the panel itself.
First I'd like to point out that from what I've seen, the NX-VUE24B model has an MSRP of $20 less than the 'A' model and seems to only differ by having a standard stand. Now, can you point out an IPS Adaptive Sync display with >100hz refresh, 1ms response time and low input lag... in this price range? That would be fantastic.
Yes, you're right. But "low" is a relative term. For serious gamers, the input lag is still too high. Also, when you're gaming, IPS colors mean less than sheer speed, especially on some of the newer TN panels which actually have had decent color quality for a while now.
It may very well be true that people cannot respond directly to stimuli faster than 100ms, but have a drummer try to play an electronic set through a computer that has >100ms, and absolutely there will be a difference. The latency through the whole system has to be much much faster than the minimum stimuli time.
Just because you can't respond to it doesn't mean you can't see it. More importantly, running at a constant 10fps would be the same as adding 100ms on top of any lag you already have. Not a valid comparison.
Good example. Even if you can't respond to impulse stimuli in less than 100ms, you do adjust to a continuous stimuli.
Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem establishes that the sample rate (Nyquist rate) for a discrete sequence to capture all the information in a continuous signal be twice the bandwidth of a bandwidth limited function.
If we establish the bandwidth limit at 10Hz (100ms response), then we would need AT LEAST 20Hz (50ms response) to satisfy this condition.
That would make sense, except that: a) A lot of top gamers can purposefully respond to stimuli in the 100-200ms range, which is also roughly the best-case scenario for IPS b) input lag is how much worse than ideal things are - not the total time somebody has to react, faster is ALWAYS better, even it it's only 20-30ms. My reaction time isn't particularly fast (I'm no longer a serious gamer), but I can notice if input lag is too great (over 200ms)
The ROG Swift monitor has more total lag. Comparing just the response times, this IPS panel still has response times that compare more evenly to TN panels that the typical IPS panel. IPS panels with high refresh rates and low response times can be done. They are simply less common (and more expensive) than their TN counterparts.
Your point on the quality of TN is also valid, though they still don't have good viewing angles which make them (in my opinion) unsuitable for screens larger than 24" if you do any kind of editing. See Lagom.nl viewing angle test for my reasoning: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/viewing_angle.php
Only competitive gamers, professionals who need every competitive edge they can get, really need TN now. I mean, it's not 2005 anymore. The gap in response times isn't nearly as noticeable as it used to be. I strongly believe the majority of gamers out there would be better served by a variable refresh IPS, particularly those that play RPG's or value visual fidelity over twitch gaming.
TN panels can offer the clearest moving picture, which pretty much makes them best in IQ. Isn't clarity (the opposite of blur, doublevision and ghosting) after all much more important than the old bellyache of narrow viewing anlges and "missing colors".
This has been out since February. IPS most certainly can be done fast. The ROG Swift monitor has more total lag even if it is due to signal processing. Comparing just the response times, you still come out with more than respectable times. Extide is qualitatively correct, IPS panels with high refresh rates (and low response times I'll add) are simply less common (and more expensive) than their TN counterparts.
The whole point of G-Sync and FreeSync is that as long as minimum frame-rates stay above ~30, they'll be very smooth - which they are. And higher than 60fps has almost always been overkill.
If you don't play fast-paced games 60hz is plenty. But to call those who DO play fast-paced games "foaming at the mouth crazies" is really just insulting. Not to mention that the statement itself is then followed by yet another an ignorant comment not grounded in fact.
It's 4K resolution so of course it's capped at 60Hz until DP1.3 comes out.
Besides, you won't get more than 60 fps in modern games unless you have 980Ti SLI max overclocked or Fury X CF max overclocked and even then in some games you won't be there either since SLI/CF don't scale perfectly.
For many gamers 60Hz is perfectly fine as long as it's stable. Also, someone who wants 120-144Hz monitor is better off looking at a 1080P/1440P monitor since there is simply no GPU available out that can handle such frames on 4K and it'll probably take until Volta in 2018 until a single flagship $700 card can do it.
Any monitors that say TN panel get a pass from me after getting an IPS display. I took a look at that Wikipedia article on FreeSync and found a good 27" IPS display on there that is supposed to come out around this winter. http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/eizo-foris-fs2735...
Is there even a market for such a monitor? You would think that someone willing to pay 300+ on a screen (and needs freesync), would want more than 24 inch 1080p. That size and res is so 2008.
A look on the various overclocking forums and enthusiast forums seem to reveal otherwise.. Everyone wants as high a refresh rate as possible, while also pushing down the minimum supported refresh rate (because some demanding games can sustain, say, only 35 fps in their current setup).
I am not a gamer, and I personally would like IPS / PLS panels, high bit-width (no 6-bit+FRC) ones and high resolution ones with more emphasis on colour accuracy - I know that this product is not for me - but, observing and writing about the tech industry for 5+ years has taught me if a product is not suited for me, it doesn't mean it is not suited for anyone else :)
On a completely orthogonal note, but related to the above observation - I would never recommend a Dropcam or a Nest or any of these new devices that take control away from the user's premises and enable operation only through the cloud - In fact, I want the market to teach those guys a lesson by people voting with their wallets. Unfortunately, Dropcam and Nest models continue to sell like hot cakes and this has encouraged a lot of crowd funding projects to also adopt the same strategy.. So, what this teaches me is again the same point - something that doesn't appear right to me is probably perfectly acceptable to some other consumer.
Res and size not res or size. 24 inch 1440p would be ok, 27 and 1080 ok also but 24 inch 1080p seems too little. FreeSync is also kinda better if you can't reach high FPS (don't confuse FPS with refresh rates) . If your GPU can push high FPS ,FreeSync is less of a plus. All that coupled with the price, if it was 220-250$,it would be ok.
As for intrusive IoT, the worst of the worst are smart door locks. For some reason their makers not only think that it's a good idea to connect them to the internet but they also want the traffic to go through their servers.Because making it less safe and giving the lock maker control is something sane people should desire. For cams in China they are going as far as to give the hardware for free if you pay for the service. Nest charges way too much for the hardware too. But don't blame Nest, the trend is not their creation, it's greed pushing the industry to try and charge for services, make money from data and so on. Even Win 10 is kinda like that, the thing feels like Microsoft is about to slip something into your drink. The press has it's own part to play, they got no ethics ,they just play ball to get their advertising revenue. 10 years ago Apple was the same company and nobody liked them in the tech press, today they don't dare to say anything negative about Apple or even be objective. AT wouldn't mention how the iphone is hugely behind in specs and features if their life depended on it. They even avoid listing features that would make it look bad, like cat 4 LTE. 100 people wrote that article but they nono of them managed to list proper specs like for any other device and later on they intentionally avoid mentioning it's cat 4 while being sure that they mention carrier aggregation.Selective reviews, shows the positives, hide the negatives because objectivity, honesty and decency or passe.
Wait I'm confused. 27 @ 1080 is OK, but 24 @ 1080 is not?? The smaller display would have a higher pixel density, bro.
Anyway if the NX-VUE24A and NX-VUE24B hit the market at $300-350 they will have no direct competition from other Adaptive Sync displays at this price. The only other AS monitors priced that low are lower refresh rate models that target a different audience. Would I like it to be even cheaper? Sure. But the price is still good for the feature set.
Even though I get that the refresh rate and response times are very nice, $300+ on a 1080p monitor doesn't make sense to me without other features (high colour gamut, 3D, etc.)
Absolutely a market. I desperately wanted a monitor just like this one a few months ago when I upgraded to a fancy 144hz 1080p 24" 1ms monitor for not much less. I would have been willing to spend $330 or so (I spent $300 as it was).
I would *really* prefer a nice IPS panel, no doubt, but I did manage to get the colors on this TN panel to be decent (after a LOT of work - the defaults were just horrible).
Considering I can push 100fps in BF4, though, and the VSync lag at that rate is minimal, I'm not sure FreeSync would have been a real benefit, though. But, I'd certainly try it for $30.
Same. I've been itching to get a 144hz monitor for awhile now, and trying out an variable refresh rate monitor. Was considering the 24" AOC gsync one for awhile, but I liked that this one had more inputs and figured it would be cheaper.
Paid $297 after pre-ordering from couch potato (thanks for the tip, by the way!). Really looking forward to it.
Acer XG270HU - 27" 1440p 144hz FreeSync. Now I actually have an Nvidia GTX 970, so I don't use FreeSync, but I'm loving 144hz and 1440p for less than $500. It's a great monitor and I couldn't be happier, even if it's a TN panel.
Hmm, I bought the G-Sync 1080p 24" 144 Hz monitor from AOC for around 300 dollars. It was on sale, to be sure, but still. Seems the so-called G-Sync premium diminishes at the lower end.
EIZO Foris 27" FreeSync 2560x1440 IPS 144Hz is coming this winter. I know I'm interested, but the price is likely to be relatively steep. This is likely to be one of the best gaming monitors out there.
So has anyone asked yet... while the display goes up to 144hz, does freesync operate up to 144hz on it? "Adaptive sync with refresh rates between 30 - 144 Hz" can be interpreted two very different ways, and I have little faith left.
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ExodusC - Friday, August 14, 2015 - link
Lost me at "TN panel."Is there some kind of inherent difficulty with implementing FreeSync on IPS panels?
Even the "good looking" TN panels don't look very good.
extide - Friday, August 14, 2015 - link
Nothing to do with FreeSync, it just that high refresh rate IPS screens are less common than TN ones,ganeshts - Friday, August 14, 2015 - link
Yes, and the target market (gamers) for this monitor demands TN panels due to a lot of other reasons (response time and refresh rates are much better, lower input lag - all the things that gamers want)nagi603 - Friday, August 14, 2015 - link
Actually, input lag on an IPS can also be low. Dell has some very good (and also very bad) monitors in this regard. It's got more to do with the actual electronics inside than the panel itself.Alexvrb - Friday, August 14, 2015 - link
First I'd like to point out that from what I've seen, the NX-VUE24B model has an MSRP of $20 less than the 'A' model and seems to only differ by having a standard stand. Now, can you point out an IPS Adaptive Sync display with >100hz refresh, 1ms response time and low input lag... in this price range? That would be fantastic.Mondozai - Saturday, August 15, 2015 - link
"Actually, input lag on an IPS can also be low"Yes, you're right. But "low" is a relative term. For serious gamers, the input lag is still too high.
Also, when you're gaming, IPS colors mean less than sheer speed, especially on some of the newer TN panels which actually have had decent color quality for a while now.
Unrelated: Bring us OLEDs!
surt - Saturday, August 15, 2015 - link
Can't give you Oleds. At 240hz, better color, 8k+ res, you'd never need to buy another display, and people might go out of business.tuxRoller - Saturday, August 15, 2015 - link
The very best gamers can't purposely respond to stimuli faster than about 100ms.Serious gamers remind me a bit of audiophiles.
CommandoCATS - Sunday, August 16, 2015 - link
It may very well be true that people cannot respond directly to stimuli faster than 100ms, but have a drummer try to play an electronic set through a computer that has >100ms, and absolutely there will be a difference. The latency through the whole system has to be much much faster than the minimum stimuli time.CommandoCATS - Sunday, August 16, 2015 - link
Also, 100 ms minimum means you're cool with running your games at 10 fps then.BurntMyBacon - Monday, August 17, 2015 - link
Just because you can't respond to it doesn't mean you can't see it. More importantly, running at a constant 10fps would be the same as adding 100ms on top of any lag you already have. Not a valid comparison.BurntMyBacon - Monday, August 17, 2015 - link
Good example. Even if you can't respond to impulse stimuli in less than 100ms, you do adjust to a continuous stimuli.Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem establishes that the sample rate (Nyquist rate) for a discrete sequence to capture all the information in a continuous signal be twice the bandwidth of a bandwidth limited function.
If we establish the bandwidth limit at 10Hz (100ms response), then we would need AT LEAST 20Hz (50ms response) to satisfy this condition.
althaz - Monday, August 17, 2015 - link
That would make sense, except that:a) A lot of top gamers can purposefully respond to stimuli in the 100-200ms range, which is also roughly the best-case scenario for IPS
b) input lag is how much worse than ideal things are - not the total time somebody has to react, faster is ALWAYS better, even it it's only 20-30ms. My reaction time isn't particularly fast (I'm no longer a serious gamer), but I can notice if input lag is too great (over 200ms)
BurntMyBacon - Monday, August 17, 2015 - link
For an example of how IPS can compare to TN, see the lag section:http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/acer_xb270hu.h...
The ROG Swift monitor has more total lag. Comparing just the response times, this IPS panel still has response times that compare more evenly to TN panels that the typical IPS panel. IPS panels with high refresh rates and low response times can be done. They are simply less common (and more expensive) than their TN counterparts.
Your point on the quality of TN is also valid, though they still don't have good viewing angles which make them (in my opinion) unsuitable for screens larger than 24" if you do any kind of editing. See Lagom.nl viewing angle test for my reasoning: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/viewing_angle.php
dragonsqrrl - Saturday, August 15, 2015 - link
Only competitive gamers, professionals who need every competitive edge they can get, really need TN now. I mean, it's not 2005 anymore. The gap in response times isn't nearly as noticeable as it used to be. I strongly believe the majority of gamers out there would be better served by a variable refresh IPS, particularly those that play RPG's or value visual fidelity over twitch gaming.know of fence - Saturday, August 15, 2015 - link
TN panels can offer the clearest moving picture, which pretty much makes them best in IQ. Isn't clarity (the opposite of blur, doublevision and ghosting) after all much more important than the old bellyache of narrow viewing anlges and "missing colors".BurntMyBacon - Monday, August 17, 2015 - link
Counter Example (see lag section):http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/acer_xb270hu.h...
This has been out since February. IPS most certainly can be done fast. The ROG Swift monitor has more total lag even if it is due to signal processing. Comparing just the response times, you still come out with more than respectable times. Extide is qualitatively correct, IPS panels with high refresh rates (and low response times I'll add) are simply less common (and more expensive) than their TN counterparts.
Flunk - Friday, August 14, 2015 - link
http://www.anandtech.com/show/9393/samsung-launche...The smaller of these two is PLS, which while not IPS is at least similar.
ganeshts - Friday, August 14, 2015 - link
Yes, but the issue for gamers is that it is capped at 60 Hz :)Flunk - Friday, August 14, 2015 - link
Not all gamers are foaming at the mouth crazies who don't understand that higher frame rate doesn't always = more fluid.Sheninat0r - Friday, August 14, 2015 - link
except it doesalthaz - Monday, August 17, 2015 - link
The whole point of G-Sync and FreeSync is that as long as minimum frame-rates stay above ~30, they'll be very smooth - which they are. And higher than 60fps has almost always been overkill.Alexvrb - Friday, August 14, 2015 - link
If you don't play fast-paced games 60hz is plenty. But to call those who DO play fast-paced games "foaming at the mouth crazies" is really just insulting. Not to mention that the statement itself is then followed by yet another an ignorant comment not grounded in fact.RussianSensation - Saturday, August 15, 2015 - link
It's 4K resolution so of course it's capped at 60Hz until DP1.3 comes out.Besides, you won't get more than 60 fps in modern games unless you have 980Ti SLI max overclocked or Fury X CF max overclocked and even then in some games you won't be there either since SLI/CF don't scale perfectly.
http://www.techspot.com/review/1033-gtx-980-ti-sli...
For many gamers 60Hz is perfectly fine as long as it's stable. Also, someone who wants 120-144Hz monitor is better off looking at a 1080P/1440P monitor since there is simply no GPU available out that can handle such frames on 4K and it'll probably take until Volta in 2018 until a single flagship $700 card can do it.
Folterknecht - Friday, August 14, 2015 - link
This might fit the billASUS MG279Q, 27" 1440p IPS 144Hz - FreeSync 35-90 Hz
Alexvrb - Friday, August 14, 2015 - link
At $600, "the bill" is definitely the key takeaway from your comment. :-0Otherwise yes, very nice.
Ninhalem - Sunday, August 16, 2015 - link
Any monitors that say TN panel get a pass from me after getting an IPS display. I took a look at that Wikipedia article on FreeSync and found a good 27" IPS display on there that is supposed to come out around this winter. http://www.guru3d.com/news-story/eizo-foris-fs2735...jjj - Friday, August 14, 2015 - link
Is there even a market for such a monitor?You would think that someone willing to pay 300+ on a screen (and needs freesync), would want more than 24 inch 1080p. That size and res is so 2008.
ganeshts - Friday, August 14, 2015 - link
A look on the various overclocking forums and enthusiast forums seem to reveal otherwise.. Everyone wants as high a refresh rate as possible, while also pushing down the minimum supported refresh rate (because some demanding games can sustain, say, only 35 fps in their current setup).I am not a gamer, and I personally would like IPS / PLS panels, high bit-width (no 6-bit+FRC) ones and high resolution ones with more emphasis on colour accuracy - I know that this product is not for me - but, observing and writing about the tech industry for 5+ years has taught me if a product is not suited for me, it doesn't mean it is not suited for anyone else :)
On a completely orthogonal note, but related to the above observation - I would never recommend a Dropcam or a Nest or any of these new devices that take control away from the user's premises and enable operation only through the cloud - In fact, I want the market to teach those guys a lesson by people voting with their wallets. Unfortunately, Dropcam and Nest models continue to sell like hot cakes and this has encouraged a lot of crowd funding projects to also adopt the same strategy.. So, what this teaches me is again the same point - something that doesn't appear right to me is probably perfectly acceptable to some other consumer.
jjj - Friday, August 14, 2015 - link
Res and size not res or size. 24 inch 1440p would be ok, 27 and 1080 ok also but 24 inch 1080p seems too little. FreeSync is also kinda better if you can't reach high FPS (don't confuse FPS with refresh rates) . If your GPU can push high FPS ,FreeSync is less of a plus. All that coupled with the price, if it was 220-250$,it would be ok.As for intrusive IoT, the worst of the worst are smart door locks. For some reason their makers not only think that it's a good idea to connect them to the internet but they also want the traffic to go through their servers.Because making it less safe and giving the lock maker control is something sane people should desire. For cams in China they are going as far as to give the hardware for free if you pay for the service. Nest charges way too much for the hardware too. But don't blame Nest, the trend is not their creation, it's greed pushing the industry to try and charge for services, make money from data and so on. Even Win 10 is kinda like that, the thing feels like Microsoft is about to slip something into your drink. The press has it's own part to play, they got no ethics ,they just play ball to get their advertising revenue. 10 years ago Apple was the same company and nobody liked them in the tech press, today they don't dare to say anything negative about Apple or even be objective. AT wouldn't mention how the iphone is hugely behind in specs and features if their life depended on it. They even avoid listing features that would make it look bad, like cat 4 LTE. 100 people wrote that article but they nono of them managed to list proper specs like for any other device and later on they intentionally avoid mentioning it's cat 4 while being sure that they mention carrier aggregation.Selective reviews, shows the positives, hide the negatives because objectivity, honesty and decency or passe.
Alexvrb - Friday, August 14, 2015 - link
Wait I'm confused. 27 @ 1080 is OK, but 24 @ 1080 is not?? The smaller display would have a higher pixel density, bro.Anyway if the NX-VUE24A and NX-VUE24B hit the market at $300-350 they will have no direct competition from other Adaptive Sync displays at this price. The only other AS monitors priced that low are lower refresh rate models that target a different audience. Would I like it to be even cheaper? Sure. But the price is still good for the feature set.
stephenbrooks - Friday, August 14, 2015 - link
Even though I get that the refresh rate and response times are very nice, $300+ on a 1080p monitor doesn't make sense to me without other features (high colour gamut, 3D, etc.)looncraz - Friday, August 14, 2015 - link
Absolutely a market. I desperately wanted a monitor just like this one a few months ago when I upgraded to a fancy 144hz 1080p 24" 1ms monitor for not much less. I would have been willing to spend $330 or so (I spent $300 as it was).I would *really* prefer a nice IPS panel, no doubt, but I did manage to get the colors on this TN panel to be decent (after a LOT of work - the defaults were just horrible).
Considering I can push 100fps in BF4, though, and the VSync lag at that rate is minimal, I'm not sure FreeSync would have been a real benefit, though. But, I'd certainly try it for $30.
Ryun - Saturday, August 15, 2015 - link
Same. I've been itching to get a 144hz monitor for awhile now, and trying out an variable refresh rate monitor. Was considering the 24" AOC gsync one for awhile, but I liked that this one had more inputs and figured it would be cheaper.Paid $297 after pre-ordering from couch potato (thanks for the tip, by the way!). Really looking forward to it.
ahamling27 - Friday, August 14, 2015 - link
Acer XG270HU - 27" 1440p 144hz FreeSync. Now I actually have an Nvidia GTX 970, so I don't use FreeSync, but I'm loving 144hz and 1440p for less than $500. It's a great monitor and I couldn't be happier, even if it's a TN panel.http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00VRCLHYS
Mondozai - Saturday, August 15, 2015 - link
Hmm, I bought the G-Sync 1080p 24" 144 Hz monitor from AOC for around 300 dollars. It was on sale, to be sure, but still. Seems the so-called G-Sync premium diminishes at the lower end.FriendlyUser - Saturday, August 15, 2015 - link
EIZO Foris 27" FreeSync 2560x1440 IPS 144Hz is coming this winter. I know I'm interested, but the price is likely to be relatively steep. This is likely to be one of the best gaming monitors out there.twin - Saturday, August 15, 2015 - link
So has anyone asked yet... while the display goes up to 144hz, does freesync operate up to 144hz on it? "Adaptive sync with refresh rates between 30 - 144 Hz" can be interpreted two very different ways, and I have little faith left.jabber - Saturday, August 15, 2015 - link
You can often OC your monitor.I've got quite a few of my 22" screens (even IPS ones) to 70-75Hz which doesn't hurt.
Even got my little old Dell laptop with nvidia GPU up to 70Hz. Not much but every little helps.
RaistlinZ - Sunday, August 16, 2015 - link
1080p? Meh...