One of those N64 launch games was Super Mario 64, easily one of the greatest games of all time. The PS4 has nothing of that caliber. At least seventeen of the games on your list are multi-platform (many already being out for other systems). As far as big-budget PS4-exclusive launch titles, there's really just Knack and Killzone: Shadow Fall. The reviews I've read of Knack are mediocre at best, and though I haven't read professional reviews of KZ:SF, a friend of mine who is a big KZ fan is saying it looks a lot like KZ3 with better graphics. Since KZ3 wasn't exactly a massively-popular game either, I doubt KZ:SF will be a big hit either.
That video's a riot. And huh? The N64's launch lineup was fairly weak, and it's overall lineup was worse. Most of it's handful of good games are long since available on other platforms anyway.
Basically it goes this far, a few developers will update their bought in third party middleware audio engine and gain some performance due to lower cpu usage, but every audio-effect they make will still need to work without a dsp. It's simply not the same API's on the consoles, they will need for their audio middleware to support the consoles specifically with the consoles own API's, Mantle isn't the same as the console api's either. The consoles uses their own api's and there is no need to abstract a low-level API which is feature compatible with HLSL (tools can mostly translate between say PSSL and HLSL, or GLSL or Cg and will be able to do the same with Mantle's native shader language when such tools are written many big gaming engines also implement their own shading languages so they will always have to rewrite the implementation and backend of it per device/platform for it to work great, the content creators doesn't really have to bother with that even if they do use shader code as there is a team of core game engine developers or porters working with that) with a low-level API which is feature compatible with HLSL such as Mantle. It's easier to actually port the game engine than try to support Windows games with a Mantle-wrapper. Compatible means you can do the same type of operations and exposes the same features (or more) that's in the hardware/driver as Cg, HLSL or GLSL not that it's API-compatible. Just because you can do something with mantle doesn't really mean you can easily do it with PSSL and GNM/GNMX, or wise versa when it comes to the PC and D3D/HLSL or Mantle optimized versions derived from that D3D/HLSL code-base, here GNM, GNMX and PSSL is the low-level, high-level and shader graphics API's on the PS4. You still have to figure out how the drivers and hardware work on each platform when your optimizing especially on the consoles and it's still pretty different than to work on a PC, and now has pretty high demands when the target is basically solid 60 fps on every game. You can't just trow stuff from main memory to gpu and back and around however you feel like and have to work around built in bottlenecks in each implementation of something and when working with different systems. An API doesn't really fix that, it's just one tool among others and is still dependent on each different implementation, as well as the limits in hardware/software.
tl;dr version: Game developers don't write things to work with Trueaudio, they work with middleware. those middleware developers will add Trueaudio capability (and hopefully spur additions to their middleware to take advantage of and new Trueaudio capabilities) and support for whatever the PS4 variant of Trueaudio is. Thus, developers using this middleware will get the benefits of Trueaudio when on systems using it, the benefit of the Trueaudio-derived PS4 API when running on that, and the benefits of stuff-that-does-the-same-things-as-Trueaudio-but-on-the-CPU when on systems that don't use Trueaudio.
Actually, that should be 'most developers', and 'almost all multi-platform developers'. Game devs focused on one platform will probably have the time and inclination to work directly with the lowest level APIs available to squeeze every last bit for performance out of the console, but devs who want/need to have their game available across multiple platforms are more likely to hand off handling audio to a separate bit of middleware that talks to all the platforms they're running on to save having to write the audio interface several times over.
But they aren't really looking for a wrapper so they can use Mantle everywhere either though. Game content devs work against their own middleware and game engines that some branch of their company create or buy from a third party, and have tools on that side, while the porters or game engine devs is concerned about the low level stuff and optimizations, those will be different on different platforms not matter what so what API it is doesn't really matter that much, getting performance and bottlenecks worked out is probably what takes the longest time, as well as all the platform and implementation specific bugs. The tools for optimization and performance tracking will also be different on each platform. In the end it's up to the middleware (which you have several pieces of say audio engine, physics engine etc) or game engine to support the same features on all those platforms, it's not just like you have to recompile to run on X1 neither. Neither is a OpenGL game on OS X the same thing as one on Windows. There's always work to be done and some differences in API or implementation. You will have to do optimizations on both.
Let me shorten even more: devs don't do free extra work for niche hardware solutions ;) Translation:Mantle/True-Audio are going nowhere, much like Glide. A few paid titles and that's it. The rest of us still have to be written for anyway, so you'll just write for US unless AMD pays you.
Audio I have already...Let me know when AMD catches the Intel CPU portion, maybe we can talk about me purchasing an AMD cpu then ;) The list of games where Intel completely dominates AMD in CPU is very long. It is NOT just Civ5 like this site would like you to believe as I clearly pointed out in the 1440p articles which ridiculously recommends an A8-5600 for ALL SINGLE GPU cards...Laughable. But then I expect that from a site with it's own AMD PORTAL, and NO NV love ;) Ryan keeps pushing the pipe dream that Mantle has a console connection. It's NOT TRUE.
I have no interest in TrueAudio at this point. If it turns out to be a better solution than the latest mainboard solutions that have come out recently, or is better than a discreet sound card, it might be a plus in my book, otherwise I'll never care about it. Frankly I'd rather they drop the whole sound thing from their video cards and spend the money on making them better graphics solutions.
It makes sense in terms of small form factors using an SoC, but for builds requiring discreet graphics cards - not so much. A console is about as useful as it will get.
AMD's domination of the console market will have no effect at all on the PC.
We don't?? That's the first thing I noticed missing when I opened this article. I'm pretty sure it's been confirmed that the Xbox One's SHAPE is also integrating Tensilica DSPs. You should probably fire up a search engine and punch in stuff like... Tensilica. Xbox One. Things like that. :P
Anyway, SHAPE also has other additional hardware - low-latency low-power stuff to offload for Kinect, for one. Also possibly to help offload for multitasking (snapping video or audio for example) by accelerating decoding, etc.
I've heard that as well. I would also be interested to know how the PS4's audio stacks up against the XBOX 360, because I have read before that it supported 300 voices.
I could see the novelty in something like that, but to the listener it would sound like a mall... a muddy incoherent mess behind whatever as closer and therefore louder.
This is one of the reasons why I find it bizarre that AMD didn't release GCN 1.1 GPUs through out their whole product stack. They released all of these GCN 1.0 chips two whole years ago, have they really not had time to tweak them a little? I'd love to have TrueAudio just for Thief, but none of $200 to $300 range GPUs support it.
Yes, but the 7790/R7 260 cards are to slow these days. Serious gaming builds are not focusing on $140 video cards.
What I meant where cards that where specifically in between $200 and $300, since that seems to be the point in the price/performance range most people buy. If the R9 270s and 280s had TrueAudio, you'd have quite a few people with the hardware to use it. Surely they would have had time over the last two years to bump the Pitcairn and Tahiti chips up to GCN 1.1?
"So much like Mantle in the graphics space, a shared console connection for TrueAudio in the audio space would allow for AMD to leverage their console connection to both allow better/easier porting from consoles, and to achieve the critical mass necessary to make tapping these low-level hardware features viable and worthwhile for a wider pool of developers."
There is no "MANTLE CONSOLE CONNECTION". As MS has clearly stated and Sony has no intention of using mantle either, this pretty much moots your whole dream Ryan. Go back and edit your Mantle article to show there is no CONSOLE CONNECTION with Mantle. You were WRONG. Microsoft clearly states DX11 with some DX11.2 features for xbox1, with ZERO OpenGL or Mantle LOVE...ALL HATE for these two ;)
EVeryone still has to write for the rest of us with soundcards and chips on motherboards. This changes nothing in sound.
Actually, if you're writing in one low-level API for GCN, there's still the distinct likelihood that you could reuse rendering techniques, etc, in another low-level GCN API. Mantle is extensible and portable too. So not all of your efforts on an Xbox One or PS4 engine would necessarily be wasted when it comes to a PC port or vice versa. You would still need at least an OGL or DX rendering path for the PC as well, but it could still use Mantle as an option and reuse methods from the console version.
As for TrueAudio, it doesn't replace sound cards (or integrated chips). It's meant to supplement them. Think of it as a modern day hardware accelerator for audio. If developers use it (either directly or by using audio middleware that supports it), it will offload the audio processing and free up some CPU cycles. It will also give the developers lots of power to do amazing audio effects, again without any strain on the CPU.
It's similar to EAX in pre-Vista days, only minus the risk of driver crashes hanging a system. Games will continue to work just fine on systems without TrueAudio, just as they did on systems without EAX support. But if you HAVE TrueAudio, games that support it can use it for improved audio without leaning on the CPU. You still need the sound chip to do its job.
Hardly exciting news. This is just another proprietary sound DSP that probably won't even become a standard unless the tech is licensed to Intel. What's the point anyways? Considering that most PCs have more cores than what the game engines currently need, couldn't audio processing be done completely in software as a separate thread on a dedicated CPU core?
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nathanddrews - Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - link
Not a real surprise, but it adds credibility to the platform.Filiprino - Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - link
I'm going to buy a PS4 and feel like this kid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFlcqWQVVuUhfm - Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - link
FOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWRRRRRRRRRRslayernine - Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - link
Except the N64 had games.CM Junk - Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - link
Huh? The N64 launched with only two games, the PS4 is launching with 26: http://ca.ign.com/wikis/playstation-4/PlayStation_...makerofthegames - Thursday, November 14, 2013 - link
One of those N64 launch games was Super Mario 64, easily one of the greatest games of all time. The PS4 has nothing of that caliber. At least seventeen of the games on your list are multi-platform (many already being out for other systems). As far as big-budget PS4-exclusive launch titles, there's really just Knack and Killzone: Shadow Fall. The reviews I've read of Knack are mediocre at best, and though I haven't read professional reviews of KZ:SF, a friend of mine who is a big KZ fan is saying it looks a lot like KZ3 with better graphics. Since KZ3 wasn't exactly a massively-popular game either, I doubt KZ:SF will be a big hit either.Chaser - Thursday, November 14, 2013 - link
Are you the comic book store guy on the Simpsons?Sabresiberian - Tuesday, November 19, 2013 - link
Rev3Games - Adam Sessler - gave KX:SF a 3/5. Looks very nice, play and story not so much.Wolfpup - Tuesday, November 26, 2013 - link
That video's a riot. And huh? The N64's launch lineup was fairly weak, and it's overall lineup was worse. Most of it's handful of good games are long since available on other platforms anyway.KenLuskin - Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - link
TrueAudio will drive the adoption of Kaveri over chips from Intel.TrueAudio will drive the use of AMD discrete cards over those from Nvidia.
Bottom line, AMD's domination of the consoles will provide a large HALO effect into the PC area.
nathanddrews - Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - link
I wouldn't go that far...cwolf78 - Thursday, November 14, 2013 - link
That's what she said.Penti - Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - link
Basically it goes this far, a few developers will update their bought in third party middleware audio engine and gain some performance due to lower cpu usage, but every audio-effect they make will still need to work without a dsp. It's simply not the same API's on the consoles, they will need for their audio middleware to support the consoles specifically with the consoles own API's, Mantle isn't the same as the console api's either. The consoles uses their own api's and there is no need to abstract a low-level API which is feature compatible with HLSL (tools can mostly translate between say PSSL and HLSL, or GLSL or Cg and will be able to do the same with Mantle's native shader language when such tools are written many big gaming engines also implement their own shading languages so they will always have to rewrite the implementation and backend of it per device/platform for it to work great, the content creators doesn't really have to bother with that even if they do use shader code as there is a team of core game engine developers or porters working with that) with a low-level API which is feature compatible with HLSL such as Mantle. It's easier to actually port the game engine than try to support Windows games with a Mantle-wrapper. Compatible means you can do the same type of operations and exposes the same features (or more) that's in the hardware/driver as Cg, HLSL or GLSL not that it's API-compatible. Just because you can do something with mantle doesn't really mean you can easily do it with PSSL and GNM/GNMX, or wise versa when it comes to the PC and D3D/HLSL or Mantle optimized versions derived from that D3D/HLSL code-base, here GNM, GNMX and PSSL is the low-level, high-level and shader graphics API's on the PS4. You still have to figure out how the drivers and hardware work on each platform when your optimizing especially on the consoles and it's still pretty different than to work on a PC, and now has pretty high demands when the target is basically solid 60 fps on every game. You can't just trow stuff from main memory to gpu and back and around however you feel like and have to work around built in bottlenecks in each implementation of something and when working with different systems. An API doesn't really fix that, it's just one tool among others and is still dependent on each different implementation, as well as the limits in hardware/software.djscrew - Thursday, November 14, 2013 - link
You sound like you know what you're talking about but your wall didn't make much sense to me.psuedonymous - Thursday, November 14, 2013 - link
tl;dr version:Game developers don't write things to work with Trueaudio, they work with middleware. those middleware developers will add Trueaudio capability (and hopefully spur additions to their middleware to take advantage of and new Trueaudio capabilities) and support for whatever the PS4 variant of Trueaudio is. Thus, developers using this middleware will get the benefits of Trueaudio when on systems using it, the benefit of the Trueaudio-derived PS4 API when running on that, and the benefits of stuff-that-does-the-same-things-as-Trueaudio-but-on-the-CPU when on systems that don't use Trueaudio.
psuedonymous - Thursday, November 14, 2013 - link
Actually, that should be 'most developers', and 'almost all multi-platform developers'. Game devs focused on one platform will probably have the time and inclination to work directly with the lowest level APIs available to squeeze every last bit for performance out of the console, but devs who want/need to have their game available across multiple platforms are more likely to hand off handling audio to a separate bit of middleware that talks to all the platforms they're running on to save having to write the audio interface several times over.Penti - Thursday, November 14, 2013 - link
But they aren't really looking for a wrapper so they can use Mantle everywhere either though. Game content devs work against their own middleware and game engines that some branch of their company create or buy from a third party, and have tools on that side, while the porters or game engine devs is concerned about the low level stuff and optimizations, those will be different on different platforms not matter what so what API it is doesn't really matter that much, getting performance and bottlenecks worked out is probably what takes the longest time, as well as all the platform and implementation specific bugs. The tools for optimization and performance tracking will also be different on each platform. In the end it's up to the middleware (which you have several pieces of say audio engine, physics engine etc) or game engine to support the same features on all those platforms, it's not just like you have to recompile to run on X1 neither. Neither is a OpenGL game on OS X the same thing as one on Windows. There's always work to be done and some differences in API or implementation. You will have to do optimizations on both.TheJian - Friday, November 15, 2013 - link
Let me shorten even more: devs don't do free extra work for niche hardware solutions ;) Translation:Mantle/True-Audio are going nowhere, much like Glide. A few paid titles and that's it. The rest of us still have to be written for anyway, so you'll just write for US unless AMD pays you.Wolfpup - Tuesday, November 26, 2013 - link
The point is though that with PS4 using the same basic thing, there's a shot that most current gen games that hit PC will also support trueaudio.TheJian - Friday, November 15, 2013 - link
Audio I have already...Let me know when AMD catches the Intel CPU portion, maybe we can talk about me purchasing an AMD cpu then ;) The list of games where Intel completely dominates AMD in CPU is very long. It is NOT just Civ5 like this site would like you to believe as I clearly pointed out in the 1440p articles which ridiculously recommends an A8-5600 for ALL SINGLE GPU cards...Laughable. But then I expect that from a site with it's own AMD PORTAL, and NO NV love ;) Ryan keeps pushing the pipe dream that Mantle has a console connection. It's NOT TRUE.Sabresiberian - Tuesday, November 19, 2013 - link
I have no interest in TrueAudio at this point. If it turns out to be a better solution than the latest mainboard solutions that have come out recently, or is better than a discreet sound card, it might be a plus in my book, otherwise I'll never care about it. Frankly I'd rather they drop the whole sound thing from their video cards and spend the money on making them better graphics solutions.It makes sense in terms of small form factors using an SoC, but for builds requiring discreet graphics cards - not so much. A console is about as useful as it will get.
AMD's domination of the console market will have no effect at all on the PC.
andy o - Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - link
The Tech Report in their 260X review said that AMD said True Audio is coming to the 7790 as well via drivers, can this be confirmed?Ryan Smith - Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - link
Yes.andy o - Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - link
Great, just got one. Thanks!Communism - Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - link
Anyone know why the Xbox One is not using the same TrueAudio DSP?Ryan Smith - Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - link
We don't know what it's using period. It could very well be the same thing and we'd never know.Alexvrb - Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - link
We don't?? That's the first thing I noticed missing when I opened this article. I'm pretty sure it's been confirmed that the Xbox One's SHAPE is also integrating Tensilica DSPs. You should probably fire up a search engine and punch in stuff like... Tensilica. Xbox One. Things like that. :PAnyway, SHAPE also has other additional hardware - low-latency low-power stuff to offload for Kinect, for one. Also possibly to help offload for multitasking (snapping video or audio for example) by accelerating decoding, etc.
tipoo - Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - link
I've read the PS4 DSP can handle 250 voices while the XBO does 500, beyond Kinect decoding does this matter? Anyone? Ryan?wrkingclass_hero - Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - link
I've heard that as well. I would also be interested to know how the PS4's audio stacks up against the XBOX 360, because I have read before that it supported 300 voices.ol1bit - Thursday, November 14, 2013 - link
I think my XBOX 360 surround sound sucks, compared with my basic blu-ray player. so I hope ps4 is better that that.inighthawki - Thursday, November 14, 2013 - link
How old is your blu ray player? Because unless it's 8 years old like the 360, that's not much of a shocker.djscrew - Thursday, November 14, 2013 - link
# of simultaneous voices seems like an arbitrary metric after... oh say 50.sajara - Thursday, November 14, 2013 - link
imagine you're in virtual mall with over 200 people talking at the same time. it will be... amazing... /o\djscrew - Thursday, November 14, 2013 - link
I could see the novelty in something like that, but to the listener it would sound like a mall... a muddy incoherent mess behind whatever as closer and therefore louder.tipoo - Monday, November 18, 2013 - link
A "voice" isn't literally just a voice. Think gunshots with reverb, footsteps, music, etc etc.Mr Perfect - Thursday, November 14, 2013 - link
This is one of the reasons why I find it bizarre that AMD didn't release GCN 1.1 GPUs through out their whole product stack. They released all of these GCN 1.0 chips two whole years ago, have they really not had time to tweak them a little? I'd love to have TrueAudio just for Thief, but none of $200 to $300 range GPUs support it.estarkey7 - Thursday, November 14, 2013 - link
The 7790 supports True Audio and it's sub $200.piroroadkill - Thursday, November 14, 2013 - link
That's his point.The 270X and 280X, that is to say, the cards that the vast majority of people actually would buy, are GCN 1, not GCN 1.1, so don't have it. Sadface.
Mr Perfect - Friday, November 15, 2013 - link
Yes, but the 7790/R7 260 cards are to slow these days. Serious gaming builds are not focusing on $140 video cards.What I meant where cards that where specifically in between $200 and $300, since that seems to be the point in the price/performance range most people buy. If the R9 270s and 280s had TrueAudio, you'd have quite a few people with the hardware to use it. Surely they would have had time over the last two years to bump the Pitcairn and Tahiti chips up to GCN 1.1?
TheJian - Friday, November 15, 2013 - link
"So much like Mantle in the graphics space, a shared console connection for TrueAudio in the audio space would allow for AMD to leverage their console connection to both allow better/easier porting from consoles, and to achieve the critical mass necessary to make tapping these low-level hardware features viable and worthwhile for a wider pool of developers."There is no "MANTLE CONSOLE CONNECTION". As MS has clearly stated and Sony has no intention of using mantle either, this pretty much moots your whole dream Ryan. Go back and edit your Mantle article to show there is no CONSOLE CONNECTION with Mantle. You were WRONG. Microsoft clearly states DX11 with some DX11.2 features for xbox1, with ZERO OpenGL or Mantle LOVE...ALL HATE for these two ;)
EVeryone still has to write for the rest of us with soundcards and chips on motherboards. This changes nothing in sound.
Alexvrb - Saturday, November 16, 2013 - link
Actually, if you're writing in one low-level API for GCN, there's still the distinct likelihood that you could reuse rendering techniques, etc, in another low-level GCN API. Mantle is extensible and portable too. So not all of your efforts on an Xbox One or PS4 engine would necessarily be wasted when it comes to a PC port or vice versa. You would still need at least an OGL or DX rendering path for the PC as well, but it could still use Mantle as an option and reuse methods from the console version.As for TrueAudio, it doesn't replace sound cards (or integrated chips). It's meant to supplement them. Think of it as a modern day hardware accelerator for audio. If developers use it (either directly or by using audio middleware that supports it), it will offload the audio processing and free up some CPU cycles. It will also give the developers lots of power to do amazing audio effects, again without any strain on the CPU.
It's similar to EAX in pre-Vista days, only minus the risk of driver crashes hanging a system. Games will continue to work just fine on systems without TrueAudio, just as they did on systems without EAX support. But if you HAVE TrueAudio, games that support it can use it for improved audio without leaning on the CPU. You still need the sound chip to do its job.
UtilityMax - Wednesday, December 18, 2013 - link
Hardly exciting news. This is just another proprietary sound DSP that probably won't even become a standard unless the tech is licensed to Intel. What's the point anyways? Considering that most PCs have more cores than what the game engines currently need, couldn't audio processing be done completely in software as a separate thread on a dedicated CPU core?Bolang - Friday, March 10, 2017 - link
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