I've been dying all weekend after seeing the tweet that you guys had finished recording the podcast. I think I might be addicted... I listened to podcast #14 for a third time on sunday.
... oh yeah guys, your <audio> element is podcast 14...
Is there any chance these podcasts can be or have already been transcribed? Love reading articles, headphones not an option at work. Keep up great work.
Funny thing is that without Brian and Anand, I would have no idea what YOLO meant (though obviously I could Google is if it became clear it was important to know). I'm of the opinion (as an aging 39-year-old) that many if not all of the Intel execs A) don't listen to rap music, B) have no clue that YOLO means something to the younger generation. I'm also not sure that "You Only Live Once" is really that bad -- crazy, maybe, but bad?
I had no idea about YOLO either, until it was voted "Youth Word 2012" here in Germany. I will be 25 this year. Guess I'm don't belong to the "youth" anymore. If that means I don't use words like "Yolo" though, I'm totally fine with that. Bunch of idiots. ^^
:P I think Yolo as a name choice is great, personally. It's both hilarious AND it naturally follows from Xolo AND I'm pretty sure it can only boost sales, not hurt it. Plus, I'm sure it'll get extra media buzz.
I've heard it before, but certainly don't really go there with the mention of the phone's name. I honestly don't think it's a problem to the majority of people, who aren't so into rap and/or twitter.
I honestly thought it was kind of painful to listen to the last 10-15 minutes that discussed nothing but that. It's definitely worth a mention, internet culture and all, but that was stretched, IMO.
Is it me or does Ian have a UPS battery that's failing? I kept hearing a beep every 30 seconds, which sent me on a wild goose chase to find out which UPS was having an issue! (I had an APC UPS die on me the other day, so I've been on edge. =P)
It sounds like a smoke detector which claims it's battery is dying and needs to be replaced. I've worked at facilities in the past where this was the norm.
Get a 9V Lithium battery when you replace it, though -- not even twice the cost and about 10X the life. Changing smoke detector batteries every 6-12 months sucks.
Intel's big problem isn't that OEMs aren't out-Appling Apple. Intel sells a part either way. Display calibration drives an insignificant number of sales. And only Mac-obsessed tech reviewers are still obsessed with trackpads now that touchscreens have made them obsolete.
Their problem is that their core, monopoly-profite part of the market is going -- has gone -- from central to peripheral in a flash.
Trackpads, especially with the range of functions that they have on OS X are far from obsolete, especially with larger screen sizes. Touchscreen is fun when you can operate it using wrist motion. Elbow and shoulder, not so much.
Programming on Commodore 64 (or Sinclair Spectrum in my case) was mostly done in assembly code if you wanted to get things done in reasonable time. But it was still possible to write bloated inefficient code or very optimized/compact code. Documented Sinclair ROM book was excellent showcase of the latter, some games of the former. The only difference was that the differences back then were not abysmal as sometimes today.
I have been running Intel motherboards since 2006, both the high end and low end and the point for me was always kind of robustness in both the layout and in a sense that every single feature (big or small) always worked as it should. There were no surprises like feature X does not work with card Y, or under condition Z, etc. Before I have had ASUS, Gigabyte (and even before ABIT) and I remember there was always some catch. So maybe Intel boards were not super overclockable (but I left this arena already), but otherwise very good and all round products.
I do not agree with Brian on the security level in current consoles and their impact. It seems to me that it is very easy to get a pirated game running on a PC, but it is still quite difficult to get it on a console (if possible at all). And this differentiator makes great difference in sales. As long as new PC like console will carry the same stigma as regular PC, the devs will not have the same incentive to develop for it, no matter how open it will be, because it will not bring revenue. So while fixed hardware spec is one part of the console, closed and reasonably protected/secured ecosystem is another and both together define the industry.
You may "feel" like you describe in the last paragraph, but the data doesn't back you up. Plenty of success stories on the PC, many DRM free titles seeing no significant decrease in financial success, PC ports paying for themselves in 2 days (Alan Wake), massive innovation in gaming IPs being done by the indy PC community and so on. Don't believe the BS the major publisher are sprouting.
Were you referring to the add-on console for the SEGA Genesis/Master System? That sure took me back. I forgot how common add-on performance enhancers were with the old consoles:
SEGA Genesis - CD/32X (coprocessors in attached hardware) Nintendo SNES - Super FX/Super FX 2 (coprocessor embedded in carts) Nintendo 64 - 4MB RDRAM Expansion Pak (for higher resolution textures, higher framerates, or more simultaneous players, depending upon the game)
Other than adding an SSD to a PS3, is there really anything else you can do to improve the performance of modern consoles?
I was waiting for you all to connect the dots for us, putting this Intel announcement of no more motherboards together with the previous rumors of Haswell as initially a BGA-only part…
Won't Nvidia become very strong soon in the baseband market with their soft-mdeom Icera 500, which can adapt to any frequency, and basically make phones work on any frequency, without having to implement physical parts for certain bands?
SDR can't adapt to any frequency. The software can change the way it processes data from external antennas (like dealing with newer 3GPP standards), it doesn't change the frequency an antenna is tuned for.
guys first zolo is not an intel brand coz lava the company which makes zolo phone has another one with an ARM processor and the yolo man any time you watch some NGC r discovery or something an they show like tribes it sounds a little like that
The whole appeal of consoles is to have a unified specification to develop for across a broad install base. If they cut console generations down to 3-4 years, the install base would never get as large as the current generation, which would mean developers would always have a smaller market to target which they obviously do not want. Plus consumers would probably be less than happy to shell over a few hundred dollars ever 3-4 years.
I do think this generation is excessively long, but 3 would be far too short.
And in terms of a midway update to the same console generation, that again is bad for developers as they then have to put the budget into making sure the game performs well on multiple hardware specifications, which reduces some of the appeal of going with consoles (granted two configs is still better than infinity). Same with add on cards. Remember the N64 expansion pack? Remember how they never ever tried that again?
I imagine what Anand is saying (beyond the PC-standard argument) is a spec needs to be updated before they become irrelevant to the modern ecosystem dictated by shrinking process tech and gpu cadences. I think two full-node shrinks is a fair cadence, assuming a contemporary spec is built around a ~150w discrete graphics card, which seems fair given where it lies in the performance/price/power/yield curve at any given time.
Essentially, if we start with a 3870 (11/2007) it should be updated by around the time we have llano (mid-2011). Any longer and the spec doesn't make sense, and I agree. That may not be 3.5 years, it may be much longer depending on how quickly nodes ramp. How long until 14nm is as prevalent (using tsmc/gf) as 28nm will be at the end of this year?
For instance, if the next consoles use the computational ability equal to a graphics card made to saturate 16 ROPs, say 896sp/1ghz+ (or in console terms probably 1024sp at a lower speed, ie 875mhz+ for yields/power), we should update that spec before AMD/Intel build that spec into a CPU. It's not crazy to believe that will be 14nm for AMD, and a similar time-frame for Intel.
In terms of console add-ons, it would be interesting to see an update that essentially turns it into a 'crossfire' solution. If the new consoles' common spec becomes the standard for 1080p/60fps, would it be so crazy in a few years time to sell an add-on and update the main system as a new sku to allow it to run similar titles more-or-less 4k/30fps (twice the gpu grunt)? Considering how cheap that would be in terms of hardware to provide that upgrade (essentially adding another contemporary low-end gpu to the box to create a mid-range part) and the extreme likelihood AMD will not be changing the GCN structure any time soon, I don't think it's an asinine request.
I do not think Anand’s “open console” is a great idea. Anand appears to push for better and better hardware, but he is neglecting half of the situation.
I left most of my computer gaming in favor of a console because I got sick of shelling out 200-300 bucks every 5 months for a new graphics card. The whole point of the console is that the consumer doesn’t have to worry about their hardware not being able to play the game. It is extremely frustrating to sit and fiddle with texture and detail settings just to get a higher FPS. Consumers don’t want to have to keep buying new hardware just to play a newer game.
I think it is also pretty easy to tell that most of these games are NOT optimized for any hardware, just ported across each (look how laggy Skyrim is on the PS3). Additionally, developers need to focus on creating unique and optimized content, rather than release more than 5 iterations of the same first-person-shooter. The beauty of the older “DOS-and-before” era games was that there was far more creativity being put into game development (only a few indie games are doing that now).
On another note, if a console’s life cycle were shortened to 3 years, what happens to all of my previous games that are no longer compatible? Do I have to buy all new controllers too?
Shorter life cycles on consoles just doesn't make that much sense.
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Zink - Monday, January 28, 2013 - link
The embedded version plays podcast 14 in ChromeEgg - Monday, January 28, 2013 - link
I've been dying all weekend after seeing the tweet that you guys had finished recording the podcast. I think I might be addicted... I listened to podcast #14 for a third time on sunday.... oh yeah guys, your <audio> element is podcast 14...
Egg - Monday, January 28, 2013 - link
Agh, ninja'd.josephsamuellee - Monday, January 28, 2013 - link
Is there any chance these podcasts can be or have already been transcribed? Love reading articles, headphones not an option at work. Keep up great work.QuesoLoco - Monday, January 28, 2013 - link
Because the apps don't scale as well.Windows Phone apps are based on being in portrait mode, but windows 8 apps are based on being in landscape.
Paulman - Monday, January 28, 2013 - link
Don't be such a downer, man. YOLOJarredWalton - Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - link
Funny thing is that without Brian and Anand, I would have no idea what YOLO meant (though obviously I could Google is if it became clear it was important to know). I'm of the opinion (as an aging 39-year-old) that many if not all of the Intel execs A) don't listen to rap music, B) have no clue that YOLO means something to the younger generation. I'm also not sure that "You Only Live Once" is really that bad -- crazy, maybe, but bad?Death666Angel - Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - link
I had no idea about YOLO either, until it was voted "Youth Word 2012" here in Germany. I will be 25 this year. Guess I'm don't belong to the "youth" anymore. If that means I don't use words like "Yolo" though, I'm totally fine with that. Bunch of idiots. ^^Paulman - Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - link
:P I think Yolo as a name choice is great, personally. It's both hilarious AND it naturally follows from Xolo AND I'm pretty sure it can only boost sales, not hurt it. Plus, I'm sure it'll get extra media buzz.icrf - Thursday, January 31, 2013 - link
I've heard it before, but certainly don't really go there with the mention of the phone's name. I honestly don't think it's a problem to the majority of people, who aren't so into rap and/or twitter.I honestly thought it was kind of painful to listen to the last 10-15 minutes that discussed nothing but that. It's definitely worth a mention, internet culture and all, but that was stretched, IMO.
Aikouka - Monday, January 28, 2013 - link
Is it me or does Ian have a UPS battery that's failing? I kept hearing a beep every 30 seconds, which sent me on a wild goose chase to find out which UPS was having an issue! (I had an APC UPS die on me the other day, so I've been on edge. =P)creed3020 - Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - link
It sounds like a smoke detector which claims it's battery is dying and needs to be replaced. I've worked at facilities in the past where this was the norm.eBauer - Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - link
Another vote for smoke detector - I kept looking around for a beep until I realized it was from the podcast, LOLJarredWalton - Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - link
Get a 9V Lithium battery when you replace it, though -- not even twice the cost and about 10X the life. Changing smoke detector batteries every 6-12 months sucks.s44 - Monday, January 28, 2013 - link
Intel's big problem isn't that OEMs aren't out-Appling Apple. Intel sells a part either way. Display calibration drives an insignificant number of sales. And only Mac-obsessed tech reviewers are still obsessed with trackpads now that touchscreens have made them obsolete.Their problem is that their core, monopoly-profite part of the market is going -- has gone -- from central to peripheral in a flash.
lukarak - Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - link
Trackpads, especially with the range of functions that they have on OS X are far from obsolete, especially with larger screen sizes. Touchscreen is fun when you can operate it using wrist motion. Elbow and shoulder, not so much.risa2000 - Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - link
Programming on Commodore 64 (or Sinclair Spectrum in my case) was mostly done in assembly code if you wanted to get things done in reasonable time. But it was still possible to write bloated inefficient code or very optimized/compact code. Documented Sinclair ROM book was excellent showcase of the latter, some games of the former. The only difference was that the differences back then were not abysmal as sometimes today.I have been running Intel motherboards since 2006, both the high end and low end and the point for me was always kind of robustness in both the layout and in a sense that every single feature (big or small) always worked as it should. There were no surprises like feature X does not work with card Y, or under condition Z, etc. Before I have had ASUS, Gigabyte (and even before ABIT) and I remember there was always some catch. So maybe Intel boards were not super overclockable (but I left this arena already), but otherwise very good and all round products.
I do not agree with Brian on the security level in current consoles and their impact. It seems to me that it is very easy to get a pirated game running on a PC, but it is still quite difficult to get it on a console (if possible at all). And this differentiator makes great difference in sales. As long as new PC like console will carry the same stigma as regular PC, the devs will not have the same incentive to develop for it, no matter how open it will be, because it will not bring revenue. So while fixed hardware spec is one part of the console, closed and reasonably protected/secured ecosystem is another and both together define the industry.
Death666Angel - Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - link
You may "feel" like you describe in the last paragraph, but the data doesn't back you up. Plenty of success stories on the PC, many DRM free titles seeing no significant decrease in financial success, PC ports paying for themselves in 2 days (Alan Wake), massive innovation in gaming IPs being done by the indy PC community and so on. Don't believe the BS the major publisher are sprouting.nathanddrews - Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - link
Were you referring to the add-on console for the SEGA Genesis/Master System? That sure took me back. I forgot how common add-on performance enhancers were with the old consoles:SEGA Genesis - CD/32X (coprocessors in attached hardware)
Nintendo SNES - Super FX/Super FX 2 (coprocessor embedded in carts)
Nintendo 64 - 4MB RDRAM Expansion Pak (for higher resolution textures, higher framerates, or more simultaneous players, depending upon the game)
Other than adding an SSD to a PS3, is there really anything else you can do to improve the performance of modern consoles?
nathanddrews - Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - link
Yolo County, California isn't too far from Silicon Valley... Intel does like codenames based on places...themossie - Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - link
UC Davis students and grads (Davis is in Yolo County) are getting a real kick out of the Yolo thing.Except that we make fun of them for it :-)
watersb - Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - link
Very happy with another Anandtech podcast!I was waiting for you all to connect the dots for us, putting this Intel announcement of no more motherboards together with the previous rumors of Haswell as initially a BGA-only part…
creed3020 - Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - link
"Oh look a lion, YOLO!" ~Dr Ian CutressIan that was awesome. Full stop.
I really enjoyed this podcast as the off the cuff comments made the show!
Krysto - Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - link
Won't Nvidia become very strong soon in the baseband market with their soft-mdeom Icera 500, which can adapt to any frequency, and basically make phones work on any frequency, without having to implement physical parts for certain bands?jeffkibuule - Thursday, January 31, 2013 - link
SDR can't adapt to any frequency. The software can change the way it processes data from external antennas (like dealing with newer 3GPP standards), it doesn't change the frequency an antenna is tuned for.dragon0005 - Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - link
guys first zolo is not an intel brand coz lava the company which makes zolo phone has another one with an ARM processorand the yolo man any time you watch some NGC r discovery or something an they show like tribes it sounds a little like that
dragon0005 - Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - link
XOLOtipoo - Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - link
The whole appeal of consoles is to have a unified specification to develop for across a broad install base. If they cut console generations down to 3-4 years, the install base would never get as large as the current generation, which would mean developers would always have a smaller market to target which they obviously do not want. Plus consumers would probably be less than happy to shell over a few hundred dollars ever 3-4 years.I do think this generation is excessively long, but 3 would be far too short.
And in terms of a midway update to the same console generation, that again is bad for developers as they then have to put the budget into making sure the game performs well on multiple hardware specifications, which reduces some of the appeal of going with consoles (granted two configs is still better than infinity). Same with add on cards. Remember the N64 expansion pack? Remember how they never ever tried that again?
alwayssts - Wednesday, January 30, 2013 - link
I imagine what Anand is saying (beyond the PC-standard argument) is a spec needs to be updated before they become irrelevant to the modern ecosystem dictated by shrinking process tech and gpu cadences. I think two full-node shrinks is a fair cadence, assuming a contemporary spec is built around a ~150w discrete graphics card, which seems fair given where it lies in the performance/price/power/yield curve at any given time.Essentially, if we start with a 3870 (11/2007) it should be updated by around the time we have llano (mid-2011). Any longer and the spec doesn't make sense, and I agree. That may not be 3.5 years, it may be much longer depending on how quickly nodes ramp. How long until 14nm is as prevalent (using tsmc/gf) as 28nm will be at the end of this year?
For instance, if the next consoles use the computational ability equal to a graphics card made to saturate 16 ROPs, say 896sp/1ghz+ (or in console terms probably 1024sp at a lower speed, ie 875mhz+ for yields/power), we should update that spec before AMD/Intel build that spec into a CPU. It's not crazy to believe that will be 14nm for AMD, and a similar time-frame for Intel.
In terms of console add-ons, it would be interesting to see an update that essentially turns it into a 'crossfire' solution. If the new consoles' common spec becomes the standard for 1080p/60fps, would it be so crazy in a few years time to sell an add-on and update the main system as a new sku to allow it to run similar titles more-or-less 4k/30fps (twice the gpu grunt)? Considering how cheap that would be in terms of hardware to provide that upgrade (essentially adding another contemporary low-end gpu to the box to create a mid-range part) and the extreme likelihood AMD will not be changing the GCN structure any time soon, I don't think it's an asinine request.
scales - Thursday, January 31, 2013 - link
I agree.I do not think Anand’s “open console” is a great idea. Anand appears to push for better and better hardware, but he is neglecting half of the situation.
I left most of my computer gaming in favor of a console because I got sick of shelling out 200-300 bucks every 5 months for a new graphics card. The whole point of the console is that the consumer doesn’t have to worry about their hardware not being able to play the game. It is extremely frustrating to sit and fiddle with texture and detail settings just to get a higher FPS. Consumers don’t want to have to keep buying new hardware just to play a newer game.
I think it is also pretty easy to tell that most of these games are NOT optimized for any hardware, just ported across each (look how laggy Skyrim is on the PS3). Additionally, developers need to focus on creating unique and optimized content, rather than release more than 5 iterations of the same first-person-shooter. The beauty of the older “DOS-and-before” era games was that there was far more creativity being put into game development (only a few indie games are doing that now).
On another note, if a console’s life cycle were shortened to 3 years, what happens to all of my previous games that are no longer compatible? Do I have to buy all new controllers too?
Shorter life cycles on consoles just doesn't make that much sense.
watersb - Wednesday, January 30, 2013 - link
I suppose I'm the only one who remembers Gentoo-based GameCDs.http://www.gentoo.org/news/20030515-games.xml