Is it me or it seems that Intel has a new arch every other quarter? How does this make sense? They seem all to be slightly mediocre, with 400+W chip to get the single-threaded crown and marginally beat a CPU that burns less than half of that. The iterations seem to be very close to each other (I can't see how could they be any more different, coming out one after the other).
Every two years, isn't it? Which is in line with what we've seen in the CPU industry. And of course, I mean Skylake, Sunny, Golden, and now Lion Cove. I'm not sure if Redwood was an actual iteration on the microarchitecture.
According to Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_proces... 1) Raptor Lake-S desktop processors, called the 14th generation of Intel Core, was launched on October 17, 2023 2) 13th gen - Raptor Lake first processor released - Q4 2022 3)12th gen - Alder Lake first processor released - Q4 2021 4) 11th gen - Rocket Lake first processor released - Q1 2021 5) 10th gen - Comet Lake first processor released - Q1 2020 6) 9th gen - Coffee Lake refresh first processor released - Q1 2019
6 arch in 5 years. With occurrences where CPU of one arch released after the first of the previous arch is released (Core i9 9900KS Q4 2019 - Core i3 10110Y Q3 2019).
For comparison: Zen was released in 2017. We are, 7 years later, on Zen 4.
Thanks. What Intel did is blur the difference between ticks and tocks to hide the fact they were on Skylake for so long. Excuse any errors but Coffee and Comet Lake are both using the Skylake microarchitecture; Rocket Lake is using a Sunny Cove tick; Alder Lake uses Golden Cove; and Raptor Lake, a Golden Cove tick. So, it seems their ability to release so many architectures is simply the case of touching up the big ones: adding some cache and there, implement some instructions, and tuning the prefetch algorithms. Counting from Ice Lake in 2019, which implemented Sunny Cove, the first tock after Skylake, that is arguably two tocks in four years, ending in 2023 with Raptor Lake.
In the Ryzen era, Intel's strategy was to use complexity to hide the truth.
Coffee Lake Refresh and Comet Lake are Skylake derivatives Rocket Lake is pretty much Ice Lake on 14nm Raptor Lake and Raptor Lake-S are Adler Lake derivatives (and of course Adler Lake is)
Exactly. Coffee Lake was a huge improvement over Skylake not because of manufacturing improvements or IPC, but because they doubled the cores (in mobile) and boosted the clock speed (in desktop)
they release a tweaked version every year. significant adjustments aren't made yearly, with the exception of comet->rocket-> alder, in large part due to 10nm being incredibly late.
14th gen being "raptorlake refresh" should be enough of a clue about how they handle their release cadence.
There's basically no difference between the 12th-13th-14th gen desktop parts. Identical architectures. IPC improvements are more from subtle tweaks, but most performance improvement is due to more cores and higher clocks. 14th gen is quite literally running at the envelope of the architecture and manufacturing capability.
The delays are due to manufacturing. Intel is moving fast throught their advanced process nohde to meet their target of 5 nodes by 2025. TSMC is struggling to meet demand from Apple, Qualcomm, Nvidia and Intel. The Battlemage micro architecture is a already finalised and they are already working on Celestial.
Yeah, Intel is sort of recovering from a panic mode after kind of spiraling and navel gazing for years of not quite delivering in the 14/10nm period. Trying to do a giant leap didn't pan out well, so they decided to do a bunch of small nibbles so the whole company wouldn't be sidetracked if one thing was late. But as a result there are like 500 CPU models available in a computer made within the last two years. They are also trying to trend chase AI stuff like everybody in a kind of Underpants Gnome "Do AI, ???, Profit!" business model, so they think they need to rush to keep up in the AI market that consumers keep begging devs not to make exist. The whole industry is at a weird point right now. It's sort of at a frenetic pace of stuff changing as fast as ever. But in some ways, it's also incredibly boring and nothing is actually changing all that much despite all the heat and light being generated with no fire. If you compare how much computer changed in 1987-1997, a 10 year old PC is basically still "fine." There really isn't that much that has changed that you can really articulate as an end used through all the products being launched every ten minutes.
This is Intel's standard MO. They talk up the chip before it's released, then just before it's released they start talking up the next one. The hope is you get so confused by what is promised when, and by the endless shifting market segments, that you lose track of just how little anything has moved over the past few years.
We've already seen a bench leak for the Lunar Lake iGPU, and we know it has up to 8 Xe2 cores. It will probably be no less than 20% faster than Meteor Lake-H with 8 Xe cores even at a lower TDP, and blow Meteor Lake-U with 4 Xe cores out of the water. So it will bring legitimate 1080p gaming performance even in handheld form factors.
The only question now is: at what price? The on-package memory approach it's using should be cheaper, but who knows?
They can't charge too much for it, considering X Elite/Plus chips are priced aggressively. X Plus reportedly costs $145 and is half the price of Raptor Lake. And then there are rumors that AMD is willing to reduce prices for their laptop chips at the cost of profits.
Best guess? status quo pricing, or $50~100 cheaper laptop/handheld prices.
Ha Ha Ha, Qualcomm laptop is going to fly, the X86 mobile is going to fly as well. Sorry to disappoint you, no one will buy the finance department of all corporation will not buy one, as it can't properly run ERP i.e. SAP/MS Word/Excel/ etc, etc, etc. (the low end PC) and for high end will you risk to buy ARM that it will not play every single game from M$ ???
Then what is left is ultra mobile tablet market and that is better serve by Android.
Initial reviews show it trading blows with the M3 and Meteor Lake, even when running x86 native code. It would have no problem running most if not all business software.
I don't see any reason for AMD to move a single penny in prices. X86 has the compatibility crown, and several years of work on the software/drivers side ensures relative stability. Qualcomm is launching a product that should be seen as in beta, you're buying a problem.
Laptop OEMs have been disappointed with Intel's recent offerings. The time is ripe to go aggressive and gain market share. Wintel's last bastion of laptops, Dell XPS will have AMD as an option for the first time in 2026.
I have Snapdragon X at $68 to $80 from TSMC to QCOM + 55% gross = $105 to $124 in volume.
AT $145 / 2 = $72.5 from TSMC to QCOM so in the ballpark.
Raptor mobile average gross on q1 2024 = $186 but if you pull the R&D charge at 'run end' = $122. Meteor Lake however is costly around $227 with marginal cost just now dipping below $105. Intel can sell Mobile in q1 on average all the way down to $98 and desktop to $76 and still eek out a bit of margin.
There is a price war between AMD and Intel currently into OEM and contract manufacturers that extends into the supply chain all the way to end sale where the PC market is facing a deflationary price decline for current generations of product through q4 into q1 2025. It's a really good time to buy a laptop and gets better into the second half on the channel clearing overage. A lot of overage, AMD and Intel have been dumping on each escalating q3 2023 continuing.
Snapdragon aims for a production trough between Raptor and Lunar and Rembrandt / Dragon and Strix. Everything in between represent intermediate bridge technologies, first attempts similar SDX; Phoenix/Hawk and Meteor Lake, where OEMs are waiting for next generation.
I'll also raise the question of Intel dealing group interest in Snapdragon X barking for Intel next generation mobile access and allocation pulling the old 'negotiating chip' routine.
Here's current ARM PC share on channel data;
All categories M_ = 68.7% Pro X SQ 1/2 = 23.1% Snap on Windows 10 laptop = 8%.
My impression is Snapdragon X is meant to offer an upgrade path to current Snap on 10 and SQ 1/2 for business user base. The user base of these two platforms was basically abandoned or at least not attended to.
Snapdragon X TAM is 45.4% of current M_ installed base just touching 60 M units so said by Apple Mac trackers.
QCOM is aiming for some percentage of 30 M units offering Snapdragon and ARM Surface users the X / Elite upgrade path. There is a market off the blocks representing the installed base of ARM on Windows and Elite / X is that option today on preorder currently.
Specific timing Snappy X may present a better tool for 'AI' PC applications development also offering a performance per watt advantage for business use Still, Qualcomm is launching into a PC market deflationary price spiral and AMD and Intel are prepared to dump current channel holdings all over ARM-based Windows attempts through end of year and into q1 2025.
Seriously this. Intel is such a corrupt, monopolistic, capitalist company and have such a shady track record. It is more intelligent to assume they have lied, are lying, and will lie again soon.
I am no fanboy of AMD, but what happened with the Windows Kernel and the Bulldozer architecture was not very fair. And then what happened with AMD and the OEM companies during that 2003 - 2013 period was also horrible. It took until the AMD r7-3700x in Q2-2019 to catch up to Intel, and they managed to surpass them with the r9-3950X in Q4-2019. It basically took them a decade to recover from what was basically bankruptcy.
I mention the above as context, because we've been devoid of competition in this sphere for a while. Look at how quickly things progressed from the Q1-2017 to the Q4-2020 (r7-1700 to r7-5800x) all on the same motherboard. In less than 3 years, we saw an uplift of x2.5 times, or x3 if you stretch it out to include the 5800x3D.
In terms of companies; I put as Intel worst. Then Microsoft a close second, Nvidia as a distant third, Apple as a close fourth, and lastly Qualcomm as the least worst consumer tech corporation. There's more out there, but I just wanted to focus on the big ones here.
Qualcomm least worst? CDMA patent licensing terms are right there! We lost TI, Intel, Nvidia, Broadcom, quirky options like NovaThor from Sony Ericsson, and any real ability for Samsung to ship a competitive global Exynos. Apple had to ship a Qualcomm modem for years!
Qualcomm has also been antithetical to open source and is part of why ARM on Linux has so few options.
This could be huge. Intel can potentially kill ARM as a threat to its Windows PC business and knock AMD back in the same way they did with Core2 duo. They might also eventually get Apple as a fab customer to make the M chips (I bet apple stick with TSMC for A chips).
You seem to think that AMD isn't releasing anything new. Intel's performance claim are against the 8840U. They never made AI performance claims against AMD only Snapdragon. AMD should also be releasing Zen 5 CPUs this year.
ehhh.... unlikely I mean, Lunar Lake is looking good, but I doubt it is capable of knocking things out of the park. AMD Strix Point and Strix Halo are also looking good from the rumors and leaked benches thus far.
Intel fabrication process is better at producing high power chips, but TSMC is better at power efficiency. Apple went out of their way to increase die size on an already expensive node for better power efficiency. I highly doubt Apple would switch to Intel fabs in their current state.
and for anyone unfamiliar with the term astroturfing, it’s a riff on the concept of a “grassroots” movement, which means it was organically born from the masses of the people, or consume-led.
Astroturfing is when you “fake” a grassroots movement for PR reasons
Notice they just said "faster*" but didn't say by how much. If you read the asterisk notes below, you would see their results are +/-10%, so they probably were only faster within that margin of error and can't make any real definitive claim.
I may be cynical, but I don't buy Intel's claims here. To be fair, though, Skymont will be the most interesting part of the design. Really, Intel ought to focus on the "E" architecture, take it further, and drop the "P."
After all the delays, lies and problems, it's only natural to be skeptical. They themselves are suspicious of their own data, since they put the margin of error at a remarkable 10%
The iGPU is the most interesting part of Lunar Lake. CPU performance of 8c/8t will be interesting to look at, as well as whatever gains are coming to Lion Cove and Skymont. But for the intended purpose of gaming handhelds or thin/light laptops, CPU performance should be overkill.
It comes with 16GB or 32GB, so you don't have to worry about upgrading it later, unlike 8GB macbooks. Weirdly, there is no 24GB configuration, even though 12GB density chips exist. I saw some slides that said up to 64GB, but I don't see how, as there is no 32GB density chip, yet.
The tradeoff in modularity is okay when DRAM is packaged like this. It's more power efficient, runs faster and saves a ton of board space.
I don't think there's anything stopping on-package memory and external LPCAMM2 from co-existing, other than the memory controller. Lunar Lake definitely won't have it but if on-package DRAM / L4 cache becomes the norm in the future, I think we will still see the capability for the user to add more RAM to certain products.
If every ACTUAL computer manufacturer is doing things one way, and you are convinced they should be doing them a different way, consider that, just possibly, you might be the one who is mistaken?
I know it's embarrassing to have to admit that, OMG, Apple were actually correct, and the people defending their choice on tech grounds knew what they were talking about, but a sensible person might look at the state of the world and re-evaluate...
I am a tad disappointed that Intel is still not able to design any smartphone like low power (2W to 5W) CPU + DRAM + storage platform to enable fanless (noiseless) designs with reasonable enough performance for multimedia usages (audio, photo, videos) and very long battery life (more than 24 hours real usage).
The Apple M4 iPad Pro / M2 iPad Air are good examples, but I would prefer them to be over 2 times lower power, but get more than 2x battery life, which could facilitate the integration of wireless charging (like Airfuel). I also wish it had low latency, multi-10’s gigabits/s wireless data docking/connectivity (ex: 60Ghz 802.11ay).
Lunar Lake can be used in fanless designs at an 8W TDP. I don't think it's that important to return to Cherry Trail-like TDPs. Just make idle power usage lower a la Lakefield.
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yankeeDDL - Monday, May 20, 2024 - link
Is it me or it seems that Intel has a new arch every other quarter?How does this make sense?
They seem all to be slightly mediocre, with 400+W chip to get the single-threaded crown and marginally beat a CPU that burns less than half of that.
The iterations seem to be very close to each other (I can't see how could they be any more different, coming out one after the other).
GeoffreyA - Monday, May 20, 2024 - link
Every two years, isn't it? Which is in line with what we've seen in the CPU industry. And of course, I mean Skylake, Sunny, Golden, and now Lion Cove. I'm not sure if Redwood was an actual iteration on the microarchitecture.yankeeDDL - Tuesday, May 21, 2024 - link
According to Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_proces...1) Raptor Lake-S desktop processors, called the 14th generation of Intel Core, was launched on October 17, 2023
2) 13th gen - Raptor Lake first processor released - Q4 2022
3)12th gen - Alder Lake first processor released - Q4 2021
4) 11th gen - Rocket Lake first processor released - Q1 2021
5) 10th gen - Comet Lake first processor released - Q1 2020
6) 9th gen - Coffee Lake refresh first processor released - Q1 2019
6 arch in 5 years. With occurrences where CPU of one arch released after the first of the previous arch is released (Core i9 9900KS Q4 2019 - Core i3 10110Y Q3 2019).
For comparison: Zen was released in 2017. We are, 7 years later, on Zen 4.
GeoffreyA - Tuesday, May 21, 2024 - link
Thanks. What Intel did is blur the difference between ticks and tocks to hide the fact they were on Skylake for so long. Excuse any errors but Coffee and Comet Lake are both using the Skylake microarchitecture; Rocket Lake is using a Sunny Cove tick; Alder Lake uses Golden Cove; and Raptor Lake, a Golden Cove tick. So, it seems their ability to release so many architectures is simply the case of touching up the big ones: adding some cache and there, implement some instructions, and tuning the prefetch algorithms. Counting from Ice Lake in 2019, which implemented Sunny Cove, the first tock after Skylake, that is arguably two tocks in four years, ending in 2023 with Raptor Lake.In the Ryzen era, Intel's strategy was to use complexity to hide the truth.
Tilmitt - Tuesday, May 21, 2024 - link
most of those are Skylake!drothgery - Friday, May 24, 2024 - link
Most of them are Adler Lake, actually.Coffee Lake Refresh and Comet Lake are Skylake derivatives
Rocket Lake is pretty much Ice Lake on 14nm
Raptor Lake and Raptor Lake-S are Adler Lake derivatives (and of course Adler Lake is)
Samus - Monday, May 27, 2024 - link
Exactly. Coffee Lake was a huge improvement over Skylake not because of manufacturing improvements or IPC, but because they doubled the cores (in mobile) and boosted the clock speed (in desktop)sharath.naik - Monday, June 3, 2024 - link
Does it matter. I bet this will be a very good chip only it will be a paper launch and wont be available until late 2025whatthe123 - Tuesday, May 21, 2024 - link
they release a tweaked version every year. significant adjustments aren't made yearly, with the exception of comet->rocket-> alder, in large part due to 10nm being incredibly late.14th gen being "raptorlake refresh" should be enough of a clue about how they handle their release cadence.
Samus - Monday, May 27, 2024 - link
There's basically no difference between the 12th-13th-14th gen desktop parts. Identical architectures. IPC improvements are more from subtle tweaks, but most performance improvement is due to more cores and higher clocks. 14th gen is quite literally running at the envelope of the architecture and manufacturing capability.meacupla - Monday, May 20, 2024 - link
Meteor Lake was delayed, but Lunar Lake is on schedule.Sadly, their Arc mobile GPUs are delayed.
my_wing - Monday, May 20, 2024 - link
No they are not Arc Mobile GPU Battlemage is actually Lunar Lake integrate, your comment make no sense, for discrete GPU, it will come.meacupla - Monday, May 20, 2024 - link
Yes, that's what I meant. Their mobile dGPUs (example: A770M, A730M) are delayed so badly that laptop OEMs have dropped it entirely for 2024/2025.KimGitz - Tuesday, May 21, 2024 - link
The delays are due to manufacturing. Intel is moving fast throught their advanced process nohde to meet their target of 5 nodes by 2025. TSMC is struggling to meet demand from Apple, Qualcomm, Nvidia and Intel. The Battlemage micro architecture is a already finalised and they are already working on Celestial.wrosecrans - Monday, May 20, 2024 - link
Yeah, Intel is sort of recovering from a panic mode after kind of spiraling and navel gazing for years of not quite delivering in the 14/10nm period. Trying to do a giant leap didn't pan out well, so they decided to do a bunch of small nibbles so the whole company wouldn't be sidetracked if one thing was late. But as a result there are like 500 CPU models available in a computer made within the last two years. They are also trying to trend chase AI stuff like everybody in a kind of Underpants Gnome "Do AI, ???, Profit!" business model, so they think they need to rush to keep up in the AI market that consumers keep begging devs not to make exist.The whole industry is at a weird point right now. It's sort of at a frenetic pace of stuff changing as fast as ever. But in some ways, it's also incredibly boring and nothing is actually changing all that much despite all the heat and light being generated with no fire. If you compare how much computer changed in 1987-1997, a 10 year old PC is basically still "fine." There really isn't that much that has changed that you can really articulate as an end used through all the products being launched every ten minutes.
III-V - Monday, May 20, 2024 - link
Wow, Lunar Lake sounds really impressive. Meteor Lake was a big letdown, but this appears to make up for it, and possibly then some.name99 - Monday, May 20, 2024 - link
Hmm. Really? The key word there is "sounds"...I'd urge you to go back and look at what Intel said at the time about Meteor Lake
https://www.anandtech.com/show/20046/intel-unveils...
This is Intel's standard MO. They talk up the chip before it's released, then just before it's released they start talking up the next one. The hope is you get so confused by what is promised when, and by the endless shifting market segments, that you lose track of just how little anything has moved over the past few years.
nandnandnand - Monday, May 20, 2024 - link
We've already seen a bench leak for the Lunar Lake iGPU, and we know it has up to 8 Xe2 cores. It will probably be no less than 20% faster than Meteor Lake-H with 8 Xe cores even at a lower TDP, and blow Meteor Lake-U with 4 Xe cores out of the water. So it will bring legitimate 1080p gaming performance even in handheld form factors.The only question now is: at what price? The on-package memory approach it's using should be cheaper, but who knows?
meacupla - Monday, May 20, 2024 - link
They can't charge too much for it, considering X Elite/Plus chips are priced aggressively.X Plus reportedly costs $145 and is half the price of Raptor Lake.
And then there are rumors that AMD is willing to reduce prices for their laptop chips at the cost of profits.
Best guess? status quo pricing, or $50~100 cheaper laptop/handheld prices.
my_wing - Monday, May 20, 2024 - link
Ha Ha Ha, Qualcomm laptop is going to fly, the X86 mobile is going to fly as well. Sorry to disappoint you, no one will buy the finance department of all corporation will not buy one, as it can't properly run ERP i.e. SAP/MS Word/Excel/ etc, etc, etc. (the low end PC) and for high end will you risk to buy ARM that it will not play every single game from M$ ???Then what is left is ultra mobile tablet market and that is better serve by Android.
meacupla - Monday, May 20, 2024 - link
I am so confused with what you are trying to say here.Try running your native language through an AI translator.
nandnandnand - Tuesday, May 21, 2024 - link
His problems only start with the language barrier.Iketh - Friday, May 24, 2024 - link
He did. It didn't understand either.hecksagon - Friday, May 24, 2024 - link
Initial reviews show it trading blows with the M3 and Meteor Lake, even when running x86 native code. It would have no problem running most if not all business software.Dante Verizon - Tuesday, May 21, 2024 - link
I don't see any reason for AMD to move a single penny in prices. X86 has the compatibility crown, and several years of work on the software/drivers side ensures relative stability. Qualcomm is launching a product that should be seen as in beta, you're buying a problem.meacupla - Tuesday, May 21, 2024 - link
Laptop OEMs have been disappointed with Intel's recent offerings. The time is ripe to go aggressive and gain market share.Wintel's last bastion of laptops, Dell XPS will have AMD as an option for the first time in 2026.
Bruzzone - Wednesday, May 22, 2024 - link
I have Snapdragon X at $68 to $80 from TSMC to QCOM + 55% gross = $105 to $124 in volume.AT $145 / 2 = $72.5 from TSMC to QCOM so in the ballpark.
Raptor mobile average gross on q1 2024 = $186 but if you pull the R&D charge at 'run end' = $122. Meteor Lake however is costly around $227 with marginal cost just now dipping below $105. Intel can sell Mobile in q1 on average all the way down to $98 and desktop to $76 and still eek out a bit of margin.
There is a price war between AMD and Intel currently into OEM and contract manufacturers that extends into the supply chain all the way to end sale where the PC market is facing a deflationary price decline for current generations of product through q4 into q1 2025. It's a really good time to buy a laptop and gets better into the second half on the channel clearing overage. A lot of overage, AMD and Intel have been dumping on each escalating q3 2023 continuing.
Snapdragon aims for a production trough between Raptor and Lunar and Rembrandt / Dragon and Strix. Everything in between represent intermediate bridge technologies, first attempts similar SDX; Phoenix/Hawk and Meteor Lake, where OEMs are waiting for next generation.
I'll also raise the question of Intel dealing group interest in Snapdragon X barking for Intel next generation mobile access and allocation pulling the old 'negotiating chip' routine.
Here's current ARM PC share on channel data;
All categories M_ = 68.7%
Pro X SQ 1/2 = 23.1%
Snap on Windows 10 laptop = 8%.
My impression is Snapdragon X is meant to offer an upgrade path to current Snap on 10 and SQ 1/2 for business user base. The user base of these two platforms was basically abandoned or at least not attended to.
Snapdragon X TAM is 45.4% of current M_ installed base just touching 60 M units so said by Apple Mac trackers.
QCOM is aiming for some percentage of 30 M units offering Snapdragon and ARM Surface users the X / Elite upgrade path. There is a market off the blocks representing the installed base of ARM on Windows and Elite / X is that option today on preorder currently.
Specific timing Snappy X may present a better tool for 'AI' PC applications development also offering a performance per watt advantage for business use Still, Qualcomm is launching into a PC market deflationary price spiral and AMD and Intel are prepared to dump current channel holdings all over ARM-based Windows attempts through end of year and into q1 2025.
mb
Kangal - Tuesday, May 21, 2024 - link
Seriously this.Intel is such a corrupt, monopolistic, capitalist company and have such a shady track record. It is more intelligent to assume they have lied, are lying, and will lie again soon.
I am no fanboy of AMD, but what happened with the Windows Kernel and the Bulldozer architecture was not very fair. And then what happened with AMD and the OEM companies during that 2003 - 2013 period was also horrible. It took until the AMD r7-3700x in Q2-2019 to catch up to Intel, and they managed to surpass them with the r9-3950X in Q4-2019. It basically took them a decade to recover from what was basically bankruptcy.
I mention the above as context, because we've been devoid of competition in this sphere for a while. Look at how quickly things progressed from the Q1-2017 to the Q4-2020 (r7-1700 to r7-5800x) all on the same motherboard. In less than 3 years, we saw an uplift of x2.5 times, or x3 if you stretch it out to include the 5800x3D.
In terms of companies; I put as Intel worst. Then Microsoft a close second, Nvidia as a distant third, Apple as a close fourth, and lastly Qualcomm as the least worst consumer tech corporation. There's more out there, but I just wanted to focus on the big ones here.
GeoffreyA - Tuesday, May 21, 2024 - link
I'm not sure how I'd rank these four bad apples, but I'd let them fight it out for first place on the throne of rottenness.Oxford Guy - Thursday, May 23, 2024 - link
'what happened with the Windows Kernel and the Bulldozer architecture was not very fair'The Bulldozer architecture was an unforced error on AMD's part. How much it can be blamed upon the OEM scam, though, I can't say.
lmcd - Monday, May 27, 2024 - link
Qualcomm least worst? CDMA patent licensing terms are right there! We lost TI, Intel, Nvidia, Broadcom, quirky options like NovaThor from Sony Ericsson, and any real ability for Samsung to ship a competitive global Exynos. Apple had to ship a Qualcomm modem for years!Qualcomm has also been antithetical to open source and is part of why ARM on Linux has so few options.
Blastdoor - Monday, May 20, 2024 - link
This could be huge. Intel can potentially kill ARM as a threat to its Windows PC business and knock AMD back in the same way they did with Core2 duo. They might also eventually get Apple as a fab customer to make the M chips (I bet apple stick with TSMC for A chips).Terry_Craig - Monday, May 20, 2024 - link
Not even the most dreamy employee at Intel believes that.The Hardcard - Monday, May 20, 2024 - link
You can say that dreamy employee’s name, Pat.schujj07 - Monday, May 20, 2024 - link
You seem to think that AMD isn't releasing anything new. Intel's performance claim are against the 8840U. They never made AI performance claims against AMD only Snapdragon. AMD should also be releasing Zen 5 CPUs this year.meacupla - Monday, May 20, 2024 - link
ehhh.... unlikelyI mean, Lunar Lake is looking good, but I doubt it is capable of knocking things out of the park.
AMD Strix Point and Strix Halo are also looking good from the rumors and leaked benches thus far.
Intel fabrication process is better at producing high power chips, but TSMC is better at power efficiency.
Apple went out of their way to increase die size on an already expensive node for better power efficiency. I highly doubt Apple would switch to Intel fabs in their current state.
Blastdoor - Tuesday, May 21, 2024 - link
Some of the commentary here reminds me of some of the commentary here: https://www.anandtech.com/show/1998/6Hifihedgehog - Monday, May 20, 2024 - link
Found Pat's astroturfing account.PeachNCream - Tuesday, May 21, 2024 - link
Astroturf is that fake grass they use at sporting events, yes?Thunder 57 - Wednesday, May 22, 2024 - link
Correct.Hresna - Saturday, June 8, 2024 - link
and for anyone unfamiliar with the term astroturfing, it’s a riff on the concept of a “grassroots” movement, which means it was organically born from the masses of the people, or consume-led.Astroturfing is when you “fake” a grassroots movement for PR reasons
hecksagon - Friday, May 24, 2024 - link
Notice they just said "faster*" but didn't say by how much. If you read the asterisk notes below, you would see their results are +/-10%, so they probably were only faster within that margin of error and can't make any real definitive claim.GeoffreyA - Monday, May 20, 2024 - link
I may be cynical, but I don't buy Intel's claims here. To be fair, though, Skymont will be the most interesting part of the design. Really, Intel ought to focus on the "E" architecture, take it further, and drop the "P."FatFlatulentGit - Monday, May 20, 2024 - link
Same. Maybe they've got something great here, but I'll believe it when I see it.Dante Verizon - Monday, May 20, 2024 - link
After all the delays, lies and problems, it's only natural to be skeptical. They themselves are suspicious of their own data, since they put the margin of error at a remarkable 10%GeoffreyA - Friday, May 24, 2024 - link
Yes, when we eat the pudding, then we'll see.nandnandnand - Monday, May 20, 2024 - link
The iGPU is the most interesting part of Lunar Lake. CPU performance of 8c/8t will be interesting to look at, as well as whatever gains are coming to Lion Cove and Skymont. But for the intended purpose of gaming handhelds or thin/light laptops, CPU performance should be overkill.GeoffreyA - Friday, May 24, 2024 - link
Curious to see the CPU performance, both Lion Cove and Skymont.ballsystemlord - Monday, May 20, 2024 - link
Putting the RAM on package is actually a step back in terms of modularity.That being said, how much LPDDR5 do you get on these CPUs? It's not mentioned as far as I can see.
meacupla - Monday, May 20, 2024 - link
It comes with 16GB or 32GB, so you don't have to worry about upgrading it later, unlike 8GB macbooks.Weirdly, there is no 24GB configuration, even though 12GB density chips exist.
I saw some slides that said up to 64GB, but I don't see how, as there is no 32GB density chip, yet.
The tradeoff in modularity is okay when DRAM is packaged like this. It's more power efficient, runs faster and saves a ton of board space.
ballsystemlord - Friday, May 24, 2024 - link
Thanks!James5mith - Monday, May 20, 2024 - link
So much for LPCAMM2 taking off. Guess Intel decided they would rather make disposable silicon like Apple.meacupla - Monday, May 20, 2024 - link
If you look closer, you might notice that Lunar Lake is for Low Power segment.LPCAMM2 is still an option for High Power segment, which is Arrow Lake.
nandnandnand - Monday, May 20, 2024 - link
I don't think there's anything stopping on-package memory and external LPCAMM2 from co-existing, other than the memory controller. Lunar Lake definitely won't have it but if on-package DRAM / L4 cache becomes the norm in the future, I think we will still see the capability for the user to add more RAM to certain products.name99 - Wednesday, May 22, 2024 - link
If every ACTUAL computer manufacturer is doing things one way, and you are convinced they should be doing them a different way, consider that, just possibly, you might be the one who is mistaken?I know it's embarrassing to have to admit that, OMG, Apple were actually correct, and the people defending their choice on tech grounds knew what they were talking about, but a sensible person might look at the state of the world and re-evaluate...
Hrel - Tuesday, May 21, 2024 - link
TOPS? Total operations per second?Ryan Smith - Tuesday, May 21, 2024 - link
Tera (Trillion) Operations Per Second.shabby - Tuesday, May 21, 2024 - link
Intel doesn't know about power efficiency if it bit them in the ass, this pr article is a joke.lmcd - Tuesday, May 28, 2024 - link
Intel doesn't know how to ship a flagship that wins benchmarks then quietly release a correctly-optimized part.They know about power efficiency, they just refuse to deliver it in a shipping product.
Diogene7 - Wednesday, May 22, 2024 - link
I am a tad disappointed that Intel is still not able to design any smartphone like low power (2W to 5W) CPU + DRAM + storage platform to enable fanless (noiseless) designs with reasonable enough performance for multimedia usages (audio, photo, videos) and very long battery life (more than 24 hours real usage).The Apple M4 iPad Pro / M2 iPad Air are good examples, but I would prefer them to be over 2 times lower power, but get more than 2x battery life, which could facilitate the integration of wireless charging (like Airfuel). I also wish it had low latency, multi-10’s gigabits/s wireless data docking/connectivity (ex: 60Ghz 802.11ay).
nandnandnand - Wednesday, May 22, 2024 - link
Lunar Lake can be used in fanless designs at an 8W TDP. I don't think it's that important to return to Cherry Trail-like TDPs. Just make idle power usage lower a la Lakefield.tipoo - Thursday, May 23, 2024 - link
Speaking of the X Elite/Surface Laptop embargo end of may...Can we expect anything here?