There was a time where some Laptops offed Socket Based Motherboards and the processors there could be replaced or upgraded but that's not the case currently! And so eWaste is an issue there just as it is for Laptops that come of soldered down memory modules, And those mini desktop PCs and AIOs should come with LGA based MBs where processors can be replaced and eWaste reduced.
Time has passed since then, but speed of light stayerd the same. Meanwhile the transfer speeds ahve shot up insanely and took impedance and signal noise requirements with them.
But if you want old machines, you can still have them. Ebay is full of old clunkers.
Equations are simple: electricity isn't a simple water and singal traces aint your garden hose.
High speed needs short traces of great quality. If you need high speed, there is no way around direct connect to the DRAM chips. If you need more than what is on the board, resolder damn chips.
Plenty of laptops have socketed RAM (i've just upgraded a bunch of Dell Precision XPS 15s to 64GB). There's a reason manufacturers don't like socked RAM - few people ever touched it and it makes the laptop thicker. The other thing supporting laptops - many of the errors I dealt with were memory related - as the machines got bashed around or got hot there were issues with the seating.
My understanding is HBM3 is 1-3 TB/s. LPDDR sustained is 10-12 GB/s. Of course there is an issue as to whether the CPU and controller can handle the speed. Maybe the video card should become the mother board instead of the CPU GPU paradigm?
You understanding of HBM BW is based on a certain sized bus width. You have to look at BW per pin -- but that's misleading because HBM is made to have far more pins than DDR.
And? More pins. More speed. Forget the pins. Just let me know if my numbers on speed are off. Again, 10-12 GBs for LPPDR. 1-3 TBs for HBM. Its a multi-processor world. We now have 60 or more CPU's that can utilize the same memory. I want HBM and a controller that can handle the bandwidth.
7500 MT/s over a 128 bit bus is 120 GB/s, not 12. Also, you don't want HBM on a mobo simply because that would require a shedload of pins in the socket.
If the modules work at 7500MT/s with 64GB or more, then that would be fantastic. 1.1v DDR5 SODIMM maxes out at 5600MT/s when using 32GB or more, and requires dumping in 1.35V to hit 6400MT/s.
Are there any laptops that use LPDDR5X 8533MT/s? The only device I could find using it was Samsung's own S23, and it only uses 12GB of it. I see no evidence that 8533MT/s with >16GB configurations is even possible.
The CAMM memory module standard was started by Dell and I guess if Samsung is offering memory modules based on the IP then it's a JEDEC standard now! And any Standards body(JEDEC) adopting that IP as part of a JEDEC standard would require that Dell license that CAMM IP under FRAND(Fair, Reasonable and Non Discriminatory) licensing terms.
So it's just like AMD's/SKHynix's HBM standard where JEDEC adopted that and standards body(JEDEC) adoption requires FRAND IP licensing to all the industry members in the DRAM Memory business. And Dell wants that because of economy of scale reasons and with all memory makers supplying CAMM based memory modules. And that's just good supply logistics economics there for more than one supplier of CAMM memory modules to Dell/Others and a cost competitive supply of CAMM memory modules for OEMs.
Can we get Laptops with LGA Packaged Processors, and Mini Desktop PC and AIOs as well, so that can reduce eWaste by allowing for processor replacement and upgrading by these devices end users.
I'm all for a Very Hefty BGA Packaged Processor Tax(Or outright Regulations requiring Socket Packaged processors) to force Processor Makers and OEMs to offer Socket Packaged processors that are not BGA wedded to the device's Motherboard. There's an eWate issue with AMD not releasing any Ryzen 6000G or 7000G Desktop Socket Packaged APUs with the more powerful Integrated Graphics and Ditto for Intel's Meteor Lake processors that will only come in BGA packaging and not LGA Packaged Processor offerings.
So that LPCAMM memory is touted as being replaceable as opposed to soldered memory modules while both Intel and AMD are intentionally forcing their anti-DIY BGA only Packaged processors there where Consumers will be forced to discard working Motherboards if the BGA Packaged processor goes bad as BGA Processors are not really end user replaceable.
There are 2 popular Very Small Form Factor DIY system builds that rely on some semblance of yearly processor upgrade cadence for Socket Packaged processors where AMD has intentionally stopped releasing any Ryzen G series Desktop(Socket Packaged) processors(Ryzen 5000G series was the last of the Socket package APUs) for the DIY market and Intel as well with their Meteor Lake processors! And for InWin Chopin and ASRock Desk Mini lines of DIY friendly Mini Desktop PC Form Factor system builds that take Socket Packaged processors that can be replaced or upgraded by the DIY End users.
And I still own an HP Probook 4540S Business Grade Workhorse Laptop with a Socket Packaged Ivy Bridge Generation core i7 3632GM "Mobile" Processor that's replaceable and that laptop can be get a processor upgrade as well. So why all the Green-Washing from Intel and AMD but why are both Intel and AMD so BGA Processor/OEM only focused there when that's not exactly environmentally sound there as when a BGA Processor dies the entire MB has to get tossed as well as that's not easily end user fixable. I'm all for the EU requiring Socket Packaged processors to reduce eWaste in Mini Desktop PCs and in laptops.
It's a lot more complicated than from both the tech and legal side. And the inherent scope of such a regulation would make most contemporary complex regulatory issues look trivially simple by comparison.
No it's definitely not and the cost is about the same for the PCB like Processor Packaging Substrate(Fiberglass and Organic resin) the Processor Die gets attached to. So that's either LGA pads or BGA(pads with solder balls attached) and maybe slightly rearranged pin-outs.
And the Legal side is environmental(eWaste reduction) as well Right To repair related. And Intel for generations has taken its "Mobile" Processors and made Socket packaged variants in the form of Intel T series processors at 35W for those HP/Dell and Lenovo Thin Client Mini Desktop PCs that actually had socket packaged "Mobile" processors so Corporate IT Departments could maintain/manage fleets of 10s of 1000s those units and repair by swapping in a new MB if the MB went bad or the processor if that was what went bad.
It's all about anti-DIY and there's money to be made in limiting consumer choices and money to be made selling more MBs/Processors that come BGA attached and with all that tossed if one component fails so the consumer has to purchase a brand new Mini Desktop PC or even laptop.
Clevo, Eurocom, and Origin PC have socketed CPU laptops. They are extra thick. If you want socketed mini-PC, that's what mITX is for. As for socketed AIOs, the thicker ones tend to be socketed.
There is no such thing as a Ryzen 6000G, because 6000 was a mobile only part. 7000G is in the pipeline, my guess.
This reads like a rather typically myopic, and unrealistic comment that unfortunately makes this kind of debate extremely difficult with its false dichotomies and oversimplified causality. Real shame.
First off, AMD APUs have always launched later than their CPUs for any given platform, and AM5 APUs are coming. Stop making your impatience into a conspiracy - they've barely started arriving in laptops in volume, and laptops get the vast majority of APU chips.
Second, the strongest driver for BGA CPUs is thinner laptops, which customers really, really want. Very few people would be willing to accept the 5mm+ (likely more) thickness increase necessary to fit an LGA CPU socket+retention mechanism into a mainstream laptop. It's a shame for upgradeability, but then cpu upgrades on any given platform are rather useless anyhow - so unless you also mandated support for 3-4 generations of cpu in that laptop motherboard the best you'd get is a minor performance bump at the cost of more power, upgrading from something like a Ryzen 5 to 7 or 7 to a 9.
(Also, on a side note LGAs are poorly suited for mobile use as the sprung pins can move if the laptop is jostled. Hardly ideal if your sleeping laptop loses contact with the cpu if you put your bag down a bit too hard.)
There are theoretically possible solutions for socketed CPUs that are thinner than current LGA sockets, but they would be very expensive and difficult to implement due to mechanical concerns when connecting thousands of sensitive pins in a small area for a device that is moved around a lot even while turned on, has to endure massive heat flux, and more.
Honestly though, something like Framework's swappable motherboard concept is far more practically feasible than swappable CPUs in laptops today. Yes, it is more wasteful, but it also circumvents the need for years-long BIOS support, making upgrades more likely overall as they'll actually support the new chips.
I want to see a world where tech is used until it's worn out, and is then repaired and kept in use - where every gadget over time becomes a ship of These us-like thing. And to a large degree I think government regulation is a necessity for this, as for-profit companies (especially those operating in the US with fiduciary responsibilities towards shareholders) will otherwise prioritize profits over sustainability 100% of the time. But the solutions you're suggesting here are simplistic and unrealistic. We need new solutions that don't regress on the actual features that actual users want - such as thin and light laptops with all-day battery life - for things like this to have any chance at widespread success.
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ballsystemlord - Tuesday, September 26, 2023 - link
Awesome news! Now we can finally buy memory modules for laptops again.FWhitTrampoline - Thursday, September 28, 2023 - link
There was a time where some Laptops offed Socket Based Motherboards and the processors there could be replaced or upgraded but that's not the case currently! And so eWaste is an issue there just as it is for Laptops that come of soldered down memory modules, And those mini desktop PCs and AIOs should come with LGA based MBs where processors can be replaced and eWaste reduced.Brane2 - Thursday, October 5, 2023 - link
Time has passed since then, but speed of light stayerd the same. Meanwhile the transfer speeds ahve shot up insanely and took impedance and signal noise requirements with them.But if you want old machines, you can still have them. Ebay is full of old clunkers.
Equations are simple: electricity isn't a simple water and singal traces aint your garden hose.
High speed needs short traces of great quality.
If you need high speed, there is no way around direct connect to the DRAM chips.
If you need more than what is on the board, resolder damn chips.
Violet Giraffe - Sunday, October 1, 2023 - link
What are you on about? Simply don't buy the bullshit toy "laptops" without a memory socket.Samus - Monday, October 2, 2023 - link
Fact is, other than some Dell portable workstations with CAMM, laptops with soldered memory are higher performance and quite the opposite of toys.dontlistentome - Wednesday, October 4, 2023 - link
Plenty of laptops have socketed RAM (i've just upgraded a bunch of Dell Precision XPS 15s to 64GB).There's a reason manufacturers don't like socked RAM - few people ever touched it and it makes the laptop thicker.
The other thing supporting laptops - many of the errors I dealt with were memory related - as the machines got bashed around or got hot there were issues with the seating.
[email protected] - Tuesday, September 26, 2023 - link
guessing this is not 'fixed' memory. really want HBM memory.ballsystemlord - Tuesday, September 26, 2023 - link
But do you really want HBM pricing? Recall that Vega was sold at a loss according to some people because of the HBM memory.ballsystemlord - Tuesday, September 26, 2023 - link
And that was HBM gen 1. The newer gens cost even more.skinnyelephant - Saturday, September 30, 2023 - link
I assume it got cheaper by now due to larger production and technology maturing.[email protected] - Thursday, September 28, 2023 - link
My understanding is HBM3 is 1-3 TB/s. LPDDR sustained is 10-12 GB/s. Of course there is an issue as to whether the CPU and controller can handle the speed. Maybe the video card should become the mother board instead of the CPU GPU paradigm?ballsystemlord - Saturday, September 30, 2023 - link
You understanding of HBM BW is based on a certain sized bus width. You have to look at BW per pin -- but that's misleading because HBM is made to have far more pins than DDR.[email protected] - Saturday, September 30, 2023 - link
And? More pins. More speed. Forget the pins. Just let me know if my numbers on speed are off. Again, 10-12 GBs for LPPDR. 1-3 TBs for HBM. Its a multi-processor world. We now have 60 or more CPU's that can utilize the same memory. I want HBM and a controller that can handle the bandwidth.ballsystemlord - Saturday, September 30, 2023 - link
You calculation for HBM BW is correct.bananaforscale - Tuesday, October 3, 2023 - link
7500 MT/s over a 128 bit bus is 120 GB/s, not 12. Also, you don't want HBM on a mobo simply because that would require a shedload of pins in the socket.Kamen Rider Blade - Wednesday, September 27, 2023 - link
The new Screw- Hole patterns are interesting compared to Dell's original Design.Dell went for a ⅓ & ⅔ length-wise placement for the screw holes.
JEDEC is going for Outsides + Middle placement
The center being slightly off-set.
meacupla - Wednesday, September 27, 2023 - link
If the modules work at 7500MT/s with 64GB or more, then that would be fantastic.1.1v DDR5 SODIMM maxes out at 5600MT/s when using 32GB or more, and requires dumping in 1.35V to hit 6400MT/s.
Are there any laptops that use LPDDR5X 8533MT/s? The only device I could find using it was Samsung's own S23, and it only uses 12GB of it. I see no evidence that 8533MT/s with >16GB configurations is even possible.
brucethemoose - Wednesday, September 27, 2023 - link
Do the Intel/AMD memory controllers even support that now?meacupla - Thursday, September 28, 2023 - link
last I recall, there was some DDR5-8888 with extremely slow timings. LPDDR has always had extremely slow timings, so I don't see why it wouldn't work.UltraWide - Thursday, September 28, 2023 - link
As long as it's not a proprietary design we are all for it.FWhitTrampoline - Thursday, September 28, 2023 - link
The CAMM memory module standard was started by Dell and I guess if Samsung is offering memory modules based on the IP then it's a JEDEC standard now! And any Standards body(JEDEC) adopting that IP as part of a JEDEC standard would require that Dell license that CAMM IP under FRAND(Fair, Reasonable and Non Discriminatory) licensing terms.So it's just like AMD's/SKHynix's HBM standard where JEDEC adopted that and standards body(JEDEC) adoption requires FRAND IP licensing to all the industry members in the DRAM Memory business. And Dell wants that because of economy of scale reasons and with all memory makers supplying CAMM based memory modules. And that's just good supply logistics economics there for more than one supplier of CAMM memory modules to Dell/Others and a cost competitive supply of CAMM memory modules for OEMs.
FWhitTrampoline - Thursday, September 28, 2023 - link
Can we get Laptops with LGA Packaged Processors, and Mini Desktop PC and AIOs as well, so that can reduce eWaste by allowing for processor replacement and upgrading by these devices end users.I'm all for a Very Hefty BGA Packaged Processor Tax(Or outright Regulations requiring Socket Packaged processors) to force Processor Makers and OEMs to offer Socket Packaged processors that are not BGA wedded to the device's Motherboard. There's an eWate issue with AMD not releasing any Ryzen 6000G or 7000G Desktop Socket Packaged APUs with the more powerful Integrated Graphics and Ditto for Intel's Meteor Lake processors that will only come in BGA packaging and not LGA Packaged Processor offerings.
So that LPCAMM memory is touted as being replaceable as opposed to soldered memory modules while both Intel and AMD are intentionally forcing their anti-DIY BGA only Packaged processors there where Consumers will be forced to discard working Motherboards if the BGA Packaged processor goes bad as BGA Processors are not really end user replaceable.
There are 2 popular Very Small Form Factor DIY system builds that rely on some semblance of yearly processor upgrade cadence for Socket Packaged processors where AMD has intentionally stopped releasing any Ryzen G series Desktop(Socket Packaged) processors(Ryzen 5000G series was the last of the Socket package APUs) for the DIY market and Intel as well with their Meteor Lake processors! And for InWin Chopin and ASRock Desk Mini lines of DIY friendly Mini Desktop PC Form Factor system builds that take Socket Packaged processors that can be replaced or upgraded by the DIY End users.
And I still own an HP Probook 4540S Business Grade Workhorse Laptop with a Socket Packaged Ivy Bridge Generation core i7 3632GM "Mobile" Processor that's replaceable and that laptop can be get a processor upgrade as well. So why all the Green-Washing from Intel and AMD but why are both Intel and AMD so BGA Processor/OEM only focused there when that's not exactly environmentally sound there as when a BGA Processor dies the entire MB has to get tossed as well as that's not easily end user fixable. I'm all for the EU requiring Socket Packaged processors to reduce eWaste in Mini Desktop PCs and in laptops.
Skeptical123 - Thursday, September 28, 2023 - link
It's a lot more complicated than from both the tech and legal side. And the inherent scope of such a regulation would make most contemporary complex regulatory issues look trivially simple by comparison.FWhitTrampoline - Friday, September 29, 2023 - link
No it's definitely not and the cost is about the same for the PCB like Processor Packaging Substrate(Fiberglass and Organic resin) the Processor Die gets attached to. So that's either LGA pads or BGA(pads with solder balls attached) and maybe slightly rearranged pin-outs.And the Legal side is environmental(eWaste reduction) as well Right To repair related. And Intel for generations has taken its "Mobile" Processors and made Socket packaged variants in the form of Intel T series processors at 35W for those HP/Dell and Lenovo Thin Client Mini Desktop PCs that actually had socket packaged "Mobile" processors so Corporate IT Departments could maintain/manage fleets of 10s of 1000s those units and repair by swapping in a new MB if the MB went bad or the processor if that was what went bad.
It's all about anti-DIY and there's money to be made in limiting consumer choices and money to be made selling more MBs/Processors that come BGA attached and with all that tossed if one component fails so the consumer has to purchase a brand new Mini Desktop PC or even laptop.
meacupla - Friday, September 29, 2023 - link
Clevo, Eurocom, and Origin PC have socketed CPU laptops. They are extra thick.If you want socketed mini-PC, that's what mITX is for.
As for socketed AIOs, the thicker ones tend to be socketed.
There is no such thing as a Ryzen 6000G, because 6000 was a mobile only part. 7000G is in the pipeline, my guess.
Valantar - Saturday, October 7, 2023 - link
This reads like a rather typically myopic, and unrealistic comment that unfortunately makes this kind of debate extremely difficult with its false dichotomies and oversimplified causality. Real shame.First off, AMD APUs have always launched later than their CPUs for any given platform, and AM5 APUs are coming. Stop making your impatience into a conspiracy - they've barely started arriving in laptops in volume, and laptops get the vast majority of APU chips.
Second, the strongest driver for BGA CPUs is thinner laptops, which customers really, really want. Very few people would be willing to accept the 5mm+ (likely more) thickness increase necessary to fit an LGA CPU socket+retention mechanism into a mainstream laptop. It's a shame for upgradeability, but then cpu upgrades on any given platform are rather useless anyhow - so unless you also mandated support for 3-4 generations of cpu in that laptop motherboard the best you'd get is a minor performance bump at the cost of more power, upgrading from something like a Ryzen 5 to 7 or 7 to a 9.
(Also, on a side note LGAs are poorly suited for mobile use as the sprung pins can move if the laptop is jostled. Hardly ideal if your sleeping laptop loses contact with the cpu if you put your bag down a bit too hard.)
There are theoretically possible solutions for socketed CPUs that are thinner than current LGA sockets, but they would be very expensive and difficult to implement due to mechanical concerns when connecting thousands of sensitive pins in a small area for a device that is moved around a lot even while turned on, has to endure massive heat flux, and more.
Honestly though, something like Framework's swappable motherboard concept is far more practically feasible than swappable CPUs in laptops today. Yes, it is more wasteful, but it also circumvents the need for years-long BIOS support, making upgrades more likely overall as they'll actually support the new chips.
I want to see a world where tech is used until it's worn out, and is then repaired and kept in use - where every gadget over time becomes a ship of These us-like thing. And to a large degree I think government regulation is a necessity for this, as for-profit companies (especially those operating in the US with fiduciary responsibilities towards shareholders) will otherwise prioritize profits over sustainability 100% of the time. But the solutions you're suggesting here are simplistic and unrealistic. We need new solutions that don't regress on the actual features that actual users want - such as thin and light laptops with all-day battery life - for things like this to have any chance at widespread success.
FWhitTrampoline - Thursday, September 28, 2023 - link
Edit: eWate to eWaste and core i7 3632GM to Core i7 3632QM.Byte - Thursday, October 5, 2023 - link
can't wait for apple to never use this!dicobalt - Friday, October 13, 2023 - link
I'm betting at some point we will see CAMM sockets directly on top of CPU packages.