One question - not concerning image quality (there are several other reviews on the net with worse pictures!) - how about the stability and the speed of the ethernet port? I read on sfftech.com that there have been some issues with this.
And finally when and what is the next nforce 4 SFF to be expected?
I understand that GIF/PNG would have been smaller. Again, I have deleted the originals, and the Shuttle provided image was already in JPG format. If I were to convert them to GIF/PNG now, the JPEG artifacts make it pointless. The system is disassembled, so I can't just recreate the images at the drop of a hat.
As far as bandwidth and page loads are concerned, bandwidth is practically free for servers. It's not a major concern. I mean, I contributed to a reduction in bandwidth by creating thumbnails that are 1/9 the size of the larger images, mostly because I don't think a lot of people are really that concerned about looking at *every* image in high detail.
Personally, I'm more upset about the lousy quality of some of my pictures (not a very good camera) than I am with the size of the CPUZ images. I'm still trying to figure out the best way to get clean images. I'll be trying some brighter lights for the next set of pictures, so we'll see if that helps.
FWIW, even if the entire content of one of our pages was 60KB - which would stream in about 1 second over any broadband connection - it would take anywhere from 2 to 4 seconds to render the pages due to their complexity. Pentium 3 and low end Athlon systems are substantially slower at page rendering. Also, what about the non-AnandTech ad servers? Sometimes those are a bigger bottleneck than anything else. Anyway, I'm not involved AT ALL in the site design, so the only thing I have sway over is what sits in the middle of the pages. :)
You could cut the filesize of the header on each page down by half if you just stuck it in fireworks, clicked gif, then exact palette. You could go a little further by using an 8bit PNG, and also lose pattent issues. If you touched it up a little bit, you could make it 1/4 the originial size.
As Ed points out, it saves on bandwidth. If you cut the page sizes in half by optimizing images and such, you would save a ton on bandwidth. Plus, even on broadband, page loads are not instant. If you could get it under 40K, then it would load in 1 second (still not instant). but at 170K, it would take 3 more seconds for people with average broadband connections. When people get fiber in their homes, are you going to start using TIFFs? Not only are you waisting your bandwidth, and the bandwidth of your visiters, your also contributing to clogging up large pipes cross-country. It's not a huge deal, but if every one took your aditude, the internet would be slllooooowwww. Why is it so hard to compress the images? Just stick them in Fireworks or whatever and spend 20 seconds makeing them smaller. If you spend 5 min making all the cross-site images half as small, you would save a bundle on bandwidth.
Cosmotic and Jared; As the operator of the site, AT should care because it is using bandwidth. But if they have enough to spare, WTF cares? The users really should not care. Even if they were on dialup, it would still be fast enough. Plus who uses dial up any more? If you read this site, and you use dial up, you’re probably using something to increase page loads that will mutilate the picture anyways. You guys need to give it a rest. Be thankful they aren’t bitmaps! Infact, Jared, you should make them all bitmaps just for fun. See what people say then. We come to AT for the reviews and comments, not for an art gallery.
On a separate topic, great article. Keep up the good work; keep those AMD based system reviews coming. I love my XPC. One thing I am mad at is the HDD. I used a Raptor thinking it would be faster. It may be, but not by much. There is one big issue with it though, its louder than F*CK. It sounds like a really old AT style pc because of the HDD. AHH! I think I may get it replaced soon because its so loud. Defeats the purpose of all the quiet fans.
Zepper - repairs of which parts? Shuttle gives a 1 year warranty on their SFFs, and they'll even repair items outside of that warranty for a fee. That's not the greatest warranty ever (many motherboards come with a 3 year warranty), but it's not bad either. The only parts that are really likely to fail are the fans, which you can replace relatively easily. The PSU is the only really proprietary part that might need to be replaced, and even then you can purchase a new SilentX from Shuttle for $60 to $80 (guessing on the 350W, as I can't find a price for it yet).
In the end, it *is* an expensive unit, but it's a well-designed unit. An ATX case and nF4 motherboard would cost about half as much. Shrinking sizes usually increases costs, and the quality of the parts used in this case looks to be better than what would go into a cheap to moderate ATX case. I wouldn't expect much in the way of repairs/failures if you clean it out with compressed air every 3 months. I know quite a few people that have been running XPCs for two years without trouble.
21 - I can't believe anyone cares! I mean, who even notices that an image is 50K instead of 15K anymore? Dial-up users... but do we really get many of those? I don't know. I'm not in charge of the site layout, however, which as I've mentioned is about 170K all on its own. You might as well start complaining about all the advertisements (which is what runs sites such as this, if you weren't aware). One page out of 12 was 120K larger than it needed to be... and the world moves on. :)
Anyway, once I update the article with new overclocking tests (in the next week or so), I'll be sure to replace the JPG images with GIF versions.
Feeling a little melodramatic, are we Grug? "5X and look terrible." Yes, and we're looking at massive 50K file sizes. The larger JPG was provided from Shuttle, so converting it to a different format would have reduced the size, but it wouldn't have improved the quality. In the future, I'll be sure to use GIF/PNG for such screenshots, but given that we're only saving 120KB of size for the whole article, it's not a big deal.
As a side commentary: If you're surfing on a modem, each page of AnandTech (with ads) would still come in at about 170K without any additional images. The entire article with thumbnails comes to about 1.2 MB, and the size of all 12 pages with additional layout data would be around 3 MB. An increase of 3% or less in total content size (not even counting the higher resolution images). I don't see why anyone would notice or care.
As it stands, I don't have the original screen captures, so we're stuck with the gigantic JPG images that show compression artifacts when you zoom in to 200% or more. Sorry.
The nF4 Standard version does not support SATA-II and there is supposedly a mintor difference in the networking controller. Nothing major relative to the Ultra, I'd say.
Remember that the relative size of this case isn't that bad. It's about the same as the Soltek cases, and is roughly 1" longer, wider, and taller than the G5 XPC chassis. Are people really that concerned about an extra inch? I'm not.
The lack of a PCI slot is something of a problem for now. If you can get a PCIe card with VIVO, you can get around that limitation, but that's about all I can say for now. Are there *any* X1 PCIe cards on the market yet? I'm not aware of any, and after almost a year of existence that's rather telling. NICs will probably be the first thing to show up, but more people are interested in audio and TV-tuner than in network support, I think.
Finally, I was incorrect in my classification of the chipset. It is actually the "nForce4 Standard", which is not a version I had heard of until now. Aparently it adds official 5X HT support and the hardware firewall. Really, I'm not entirely sure how it's different from the Ultra. The article is updated with this information.
it is nice, but I really appreciate an SFF when its as small as, say the Zen st62k, which I bought for my parents.
When an sff gets to the size and price of this sn25p, it gets harder to choose this rather limiting and relatively expensive alternative to a standard ATX case with quiet cooling.
This isn't the box you use to build your pvr, so don't worry about no pci slots for a tv tuner. If you want to build a pvr/htpc/etc., pick a smaller box.
#13 and everyone complaining about price: Shuttle can demand that price. They were the first, and they have some of the best quality or at least perceived quality. If people wouldn’t buy at that price, it wouldn’t be that high.
I don’t see you complaining about Intel Prices, it is a very similar pricing strategy.
$400+ is the killer for me.. I think Shuttle is losing sight here..
Jarod, let us know when you update those graphs. That's the real kicker for most of us here too. Subjective audio analysis doesn't really do it for me. BTW, just your personal opinion.. is it still safe to go AGP for the next 2+ years?
What I'd LOVE to see is a version of the Kloss KL-I915A with socket 939 and Nf4. Check out http://www.klosspc.com/ and you'll see what I mean..
Hell even the Asus S-presso would be nice..
Is anyone else concerned about the lack of PCI slots, wouldn't that be necessary to install a tv tuner, unless you went with an ALL In Wonder GPU? Do they make tuners for PCIex1?
8 - I didn't have any difficulty installing a DVD drive into the SN25P. The "button" has a fairly large range of movement, which allows it to work well. Also, the screw-less design of the CD worked well for me.
As far as the graphs go, my intention is to actually go back and add in figures for the SN95G5 and Soltek 3901-300 Pro when I finish testing them, so in the future the charts will hopefully become more meaningful. Having only run one set of benchmarks for this particular configuration made the benchmarks somewhat superfluous for the time being. :|
One thing that I noticed was that all the noise and heat graphs were on their own seperate scale. This might not be as big a deal when there are multiple cases on the chart, but when there is only one it makes it impossible to just run your eye down the chart and see what the range is. I'd really recommend picking the largest scale and sticking with it for all the charts (and preferably, do the same when there is more than one case on those graphs).
Other than that minor layout glitch, a fairly good review. One thing I was wondering, however, was how well the cover over the CD drive works. I know my G5 series case takes a lot of tweaking to get the CD drive positioned just right so that the button will actually open the drive, have they improved that in the P series chasis?
Not impressed at all.
Case too big, and no PCI slot is huge turn off for me.
I think alot SSF users use thier system as HTPC and this system just will not work. I would perfer a wider case, than a taller one. And no PCI slot means no TV tuner or FTA cards.
Maybe I will wait for the one with the ATI motherboard, or the Biostar or just get a HTPC case and get a real motherboard in it.
#5 - blame my camera. It's definitely NOT a high-end model. Most of the external shots were provided by Shuttle, so I used those as a better quality image. The front panel *does* have a speckled look to it. Maybe I'll see about upgrading to a better camera in the future. Right now, the originals are taken at 2048x1536 (the max of my 3 MP Fuji camera), but after cropping and misc. cleanup I resized them to a more manageable format.
#1...for the most part i agree that overclocking wont be a issue with a lot of SFF buyers. One point of concern for me would be the absence of a PCI slot for standard PCI periphrials..such as a TV tuner card..which i have in my system and use frequently.
This does look like an attractive device though with a little extra room than most SFF's and a Power Supply with some performance margin in it.
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Iargonaut - Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - link
One question - not concerning image quality (there are several other reviews on the net with worse pictures!) - how about the stability and the speed of the ethernet port? I read on sfftech.com that there have been some issues with this.And finally when and what is the next nforce 4 SFF to be expected?
Thanks and as always: great review!
JarredWalton - Saturday, July 30, 2005 - link
Soon... very soon! Including some updated SN25P benchmarks (Network as well as overclocking).JarredWalton - Friday, March 11, 2005 - link
I understand that GIF/PNG would have been smaller. Again, I have deleted the originals, and the Shuttle provided image was already in JPG format. If I were to convert them to GIF/PNG now, the JPEG artifacts make it pointless. The system is disassembled, so I can't just recreate the images at the drop of a hat.As far as bandwidth and page loads are concerned, bandwidth is practically free for servers. It's not a major concern. I mean, I contributed to a reduction in bandwidth by creating thumbnails that are 1/9 the size of the larger images, mostly because I don't think a lot of people are really that concerned about looking at *every* image in high detail.
Personally, I'm more upset about the lousy quality of some of my pictures (not a very good camera) than I am with the size of the CPUZ images. I'm still trying to figure out the best way to get clean images. I'll be trying some brighter lights for the next set of pictures, so we'll see if that helps.
FWIW, even if the entire content of one of our pages was 60KB - which would stream in about 1 second over any broadband connection - it would take anywhere from 2 to 4 seconds to render the pages due to their complexity. Pentium 3 and low end Athlon systems are substantially slower at page rendering. Also, what about the non-AnandTech ad servers? Sometimes those are a bigger bottleneck than anything else. Anyway, I'm not involved AT ALL in the site design, so the only thing I have sway over is what sits in the middle of the pages. :)
cosmotic - Friday, March 11, 2005 - link
You could cut the filesize of the header on each page down by half if you just stuck it in fireworks, clicked gif, then exact palette. You could go a little further by using an 8bit PNG, and also lose pattent issues. If you touched it up a little bit, you could make it 1/4 the originial size.cosmotic - Friday, March 11, 2005 - link
As Ed points out, it saves on bandwidth. If you cut the page sizes in half by optimizing images and such, you would save a ton on bandwidth. Plus, even on broadband, page loads are not instant. If you could get it under 40K, then it would load in 1 second (still not instant). but at 170K, it would take 3 more seconds for people with average broadband connections. When people get fiber in their homes, are you going to start using TIFFs? Not only are you waisting your bandwidth, and the bandwidth of your visiters, your also contributing to clogging up large pipes cross-country. It's not a huge deal, but if every one took your aditude, the internet would be slllooooowwww. Why is it so hard to compress the images? Just stick them in Fireworks or whatever and spend 20 seconds makeing them smaller. If you spend 5 min making all the cross-site images half as small, you would save a bundle on bandwidth.GoatHerderEd - Friday, March 11, 2005 - link
Cosmotic and Jared; As the operator of the site, AT should care because it is using bandwidth. But if they have enough to spare, WTF cares? The users really should not care. Even if they were on dialup, it would still be fast enough. Plus who uses dial up any more? If you read this site, and you use dial up, you’re probably using something to increase page loads that will mutilate the picture anyways. You guys need to give it a rest. Be thankful they aren’t bitmaps! Infact, Jared, you should make them all bitmaps just for fun. See what people say then. We come to AT for the reviews and comments, not for an art gallery.On a separate topic, great article. Keep up the good work; keep those AMD based system reviews coming. I love my XPC. One thing I am mad at is the HDD. I used a Raptor thinking it would be faster. It may be, but not by much. There is one big issue with it though, its louder than F*CK. It sounds like a really old AT style pc because of the HDD. AHH! I think I may get it replaced soon because its so loud. Defeats the purpose of all the quiet fans.
JarredWalton - Thursday, March 10, 2005 - link
Zepper - repairs of which parts? Shuttle gives a 1 year warranty on their SFFs, and they'll even repair items outside of that warranty for a fee. That's not the greatest warranty ever (many motherboards come with a 3 year warranty), but it's not bad either. The only parts that are really likely to fail are the fans, which you can replace relatively easily. The PSU is the only really proprietary part that might need to be replaced, and even then you can purchase a new SilentX from Shuttle for $60 to $80 (guessing on the 350W, as I can't find a price for it yet).In the end, it *is* an expensive unit, but it's a well-designed unit. An ATX case and nF4 motherboard would cost about half as much. Shrinking sizes usually increases costs, and the quality of the parts used in this case looks to be better than what would go into a cheap to moderate ATX case. I wouldn't expect much in the way of repairs/failures if you clean it out with compressed air every 3 months. I know quite a few people that have been running XPCs for two years without trouble.
Zepper - Thursday, March 10, 2005 - link
Cost of long-term ownership too high with all those proprietary parts....bh.
JarredWalton - Thursday, March 10, 2005 - link
21 - I can't believe anyone cares! I mean, who even notices that an image is 50K instead of 15K anymore? Dial-up users... but do we really get many of those? I don't know. I'm not in charge of the site layout, however, which as I've mentioned is about 170K all on its own. You might as well start complaining about all the advertisements (which is what runs sites such as this, if you weren't aware). One page out of 12 was 120K larger than it needed to be... and the world moves on. :)Anyway, once I update the article with new overclocking tests (in the next week or so), I'll be sure to replace the JPG images with GIF versions.
cosmotic - Thursday, March 10, 2005 - link
I cant believe your defending using poor formats and those huge page sizes. You should be trying to make the page sizes as small as possible.JarredWalton - Wednesday, March 9, 2005 - link
Feeling a little melodramatic, are we Grug? "5X and look terrible." Yes, and we're looking at massive 50K file sizes. The larger JPG was provided from Shuttle, so converting it to a different format would have reduced the size, but it wouldn't have improved the quality. In the future, I'll be sure to use GIF/PNG for such screenshots, but given that we're only saving 120KB of size for the whole article, it's not a big deal.As a side commentary: If you're surfing on a modem, each page of AnandTech (with ads) would still come in at about 170K without any additional images. The entire article with thumbnails comes to about 1.2 MB, and the size of all 12 pages with additional layout data would be around 3 MB. An increase of 3% or less in total content size (not even counting the higher resolution images). I don't see why anyone would notice or care.
As it stands, I don't have the original screen captures, so we're stuck with the gigantic JPG images that show compression artifacts when you zoom in to 200% or more. Sorry.
grug2k - Wednesday, March 9, 2005 - link
Ugh. Please use 8-bit PNG or GIF for your CPU-Z screenshots and the like. Those JPEGs are 5x the size and look terrible.JarredWalton - Wednesday, March 9, 2005 - link
re: #17 - Updated nForce4 informations:The nF4 Standard version does not support SATA-II and there is supposedly a mintor difference in the networking controller. Nothing major relative to the Ultra, I'd say.
JarredWalton - Wednesday, March 9, 2005 - link
Remember that the relative size of this case isn't that bad. It's about the same as the Soltek cases, and is roughly 1" longer, wider, and taller than the G5 XPC chassis. Are people really that concerned about an extra inch? I'm not.The lack of a PCI slot is something of a problem for now. If you can get a PCIe card with VIVO, you can get around that limitation, but that's about all I can say for now. Are there *any* X1 PCIe cards on the market yet? I'm not aware of any, and after almost a year of existence that's rather telling. NICs will probably be the first thing to show up, but more people are interested in audio and TV-tuner than in network support, I think.
Finally, I was incorrect in my classification of the chipset. It is actually the "nForce4 Standard", which is not a version I had heard of until now. Aparently it adds official 5X HT support and the hardware firewall. Really, I'm not entirely sure how it's different from the Ultra. The article is updated with this information.
arswihart - Wednesday, March 9, 2005 - link
it is nice, but I really appreciate an SFF when its as small as, say the Zen st62k, which I bought for my parents.When an sff gets to the size and price of this sn25p, it gets harder to choose this rather limiting and relatively expensive alternative to a standard ATX case with quiet cooling.
eastvillager - Wednesday, March 9, 2005 - link
I think the price is fine, just look at what you get, lol.Custom case, nf4 mobo, custom 350watt ps, drive cables, heatsink/pipe, 5 fans, etc.
This isn't the box you use to build your pvr, so don't worry about no pci slots for a tv tuner. If you want to build a pvr/htpc/etc., pick a smaller box.
Nice review, btw. :-)
GoatHerderEd - Wednesday, March 9, 2005 - link
#13 and everyone complaining about price: Shuttle can demand that price. They were the first, and they have some of the best quality or at least perceived quality. If people wouldn’t buy at that price, it wouldn’t be that high.I don’t see you complaining about Intel Prices, it is a very similar pricing strategy.
WooDaddy - Wednesday, March 9, 2005 - link
$400+ is the killer for me.. I think Shuttle is losing sight here..Jarod, let us know when you update those graphs. That's the real kicker for most of us here too. Subjective audio analysis doesn't really do it for me. BTW, just your personal opinion.. is it still safe to go AGP for the next 2+ years?
What I'd LOVE to see is a version of the Kloss KL-I915A with socket 939 and Nf4. Check out http://www.klosspc.com/ and you'll see what I mean..
Hell even the Asus S-presso would be nice..
arswihart - Wednesday, March 9, 2005 - link
i think it would have been better to have a pci slot than a pcie slot, thats really the worst thing about this sff imosideshow23bob - Wednesday, March 9, 2005 - link
Is anyone else concerned about the lack of PCI slots, wouldn't that be necessary to install a tv tuner, unless you went with an ALL In Wonder GPU? Do they make tuners for PCIex1?CrystalBay - Wednesday, March 9, 2005 - link
Nice review, 375.00 is that Shuttle's retail price ?I like the PSU is there any rating on the 12v line.
JarredWalton - Wednesday, March 9, 2005 - link
8 - I didn't have any difficulty installing a DVD drive into the SN25P. The "button" has a fairly large range of movement, which allows it to work well. Also, the screw-less design of the CD worked well for me.As far as the graphs go, my intention is to actually go back and add in figures for the SN95G5 and Soltek 3901-300 Pro when I finish testing them, so in the future the charts will hopefully become more meaningful. Having only run one set of benchmarks for this particular configuration made the benchmarks somewhat superfluous for the time being. :|
Gioron - Wednesday, March 9, 2005 - link
One thing that I noticed was that all the noise and heat graphs were on their own seperate scale. This might not be as big a deal when there are multiple cases on the chart, but when there is only one it makes it impossible to just run your eye down the chart and see what the range is. I'd really recommend picking the largest scale and sticking with it for all the charts (and preferably, do the same when there is more than one case on those graphs).Other than that minor layout glitch, a fairly good review. One thing I was wondering, however, was how well the cover over the CD drive works. I know my G5 series case takes a lot of tweaking to get the CD drive positioned just right so that the button will actually open the drive, have they improved that in the P series chasis?
OrSin - Wednesday, March 9, 2005 - link
Not impressed at all.Case too big, and no PCI slot is huge turn off for me.
I think alot SSF users use thier system as HTPC and this system just will not work. I would perfer a wider case, than a taller one. And no PCI slot means no TV tuner or FTA cards.
Maybe I will wait for the one with the ATI motherboard, or the Biostar or just get a HTPC case and get a real motherboard in it.
Oh yeah $400 is little steap even for SFF cases.
JarredWalton - Wednesday, March 9, 2005 - link
#5 - blame my camera. It's definitely NOT a high-end model. Most of the external shots were provided by Shuttle, so I used those as a better quality image. The front panel *does* have a speckled look to it. Maybe I'll see about upgrading to a better camera in the future. Right now, the originals are taken at 2048x1536 (the max of my 3 MP Fuji camera), but after cropping and misc. cleanup I resized them to a more manageable format.IceWindius - Wednesday, March 9, 2005 - link
Ok, why do alot of these picture in their large format look very grainy like it was done in 640x480 mode?IceWindius - Wednesday, March 9, 2005 - link
Well see how well this machine does in the reliable department as many people complained about the SN95g's issues.That and I want to see Creative make a PCI-E soundcard as well as onboard sucks period.
deathwalker - Tuesday, March 8, 2005 - link
#1...for the most part i agree that overclocking wont be a issue with a lot of SFF buyers. One point of concern for me would be the absence of a PCI slot for standard PCI periphrials..such as a TV tuner card..which i have in my system and use frequently.This does look like an attractive device though with a little extra room than most SFF's and a Power Supply with some performance margin in it.
pbrain - Tuesday, March 8, 2005 - link
Fantastic review. Now, where and when are they going be available?!segagenesis - Tuesday, March 8, 2005 - link
And I thought my SN41G2 was expensive at $300 when it was new. Ouch!Good review, however. I dont think overclocking is a major selling point for a SFF when most people want one for noise/size/convenience.