I'd love to get an AMD-based mobile device but buying a Zen+-based machine months after Zen 2, which is not just a good competitor but actually just as fast or faster than Intel's offerings, has been released just feels wrong.
Zen2 for now is just for desktops and servers. Those share the same CPU chipletd. It may take a while before it comes to mobile APUs such as Ryzen 3700 as they cannot use the normal Zen2 7nm dies and the IO dies that are actually 14nm.
Doesn't make OP wrong - if you need a new laptop TODAY, sure, a Zen+ based one might be a decent choice, and it's refreshing to see Asus releasing AMD-based laptops that don't treat the platform like it belongs in the discount bin (as in, chunky plastic enclosure, medicore LCD screen and, in some cases, single channel RAM that really hurts performance).
Having said that, if you can wait just a few months, you'll likely be able to get a 10nm Intel-based laptop, and at some point after that, a Zen2-based AMD one, which should have better performance and battery life, plus integrated graphics that will likely see a decent performance bump over the current 3000-series.
I never said he was wrong. Everyone is free to decide if the wait is worth it or not. Also, Intel 10nm laptops are crazy expensive and not much better than Intel 14nm laptops if you normalize for RAM speed (10nm use 3733 LPDDRD4x) and power envelope (15w to 15w, 25w to 25W). Intel just launched new 10th gen 14nm laptops because 10nm is not mean to volume production. Cost won't come down much due to poor 10nm yields (max 4 cores vs 6 cores for 14nm).
Laptops in general are a bad buy right now IMO. Unless you web browse, watch movies, and do homework (or work at a company that issues laptops like I do.) Performance on the mobile side has been stagnant until Intel rolled out 10nm. GPU technology is at a standstill.
Unfortunately, Intel one price is not that steep compared with AMD now. Notebook price is not dictated by whose CPU the manufacturer use, but how much the manufacturer want to sell you.
AMD could just implement a 7nm I/O die for the APUs as well and go for the CPU+GPU core design. Not sure how the size would end up, though we could potentially end up with a Zen2+7nm Vega pairing if Navi cores aren't used. They don't NEED to do a special die that combines both.
I believe the someone (AMD?) has mentioned that chiplet design doesn't suit the low-cost parts: The CCDs for Ryzen 3rd gen are manufactured at TSMC over in Asia and the I/O dies in the US at GlobalFoundries. With the further logistics and assembly required to get the finished product, it's not worth it. That's why they intend on having a single die for the 4000 series (Zen 2) APUs.
I don't believe it's been mentioned anywhere that they are going to have a single die. Maybe a single CCD, but that's a given, because the rest of the area is going to have a GPU. If we are lucky we MAY see them shrink the IO die to 7nm now that yields are up. That would drop the power budget and allow for more room for a better GPU.
This is not as simple as it sounds, of course, but both APUs and the semi-custom products for consoles are CPU+GPU. If they managed to share silicon between those two product lines (whether they share *the* die or parts of a multi-chip package), they could stick with their approach of building all their products around a minimal number of pieces, and probably deliver some good perf on the laptop side (though of course it won't have the watts, GDDR RAM, etc.).
AMD is still behind Intel in the laptop world. WAY behind. They seriously need to get with it for both mobile (and APUs) and GPU.
I suspect everything is intertwined. AMD COULD release Zen 2 mobile parts, they could have skipped over Zen+ completely, but I suspect the GPU is holding them back. I mean hell, they have 65watt TDP chips stomping the daylights out of Intel currently. I want to see what a 3600 would be TDP wise if it had a base clock of 2.3 GHz.
Not sure what XPS model you are talking about. The SSD and RAM are socketed in XPS 15 7590 (2019), not soldered down. https://youtu.be/HY4N08zreXk?t=739
Is the RAM in the 431 ("basic") model upgradeable or soldered down? If it's upgradable, what's the max memory it can handle? Upgradability would make it *much* more interesting.
Also, it's weird that the "basic" model has BT5.0 but the higher models only have BT 4.2.
... upgradability is not looking good - the manual (which you can get to from the links in the article - link -> "Support" -> "Manual & Document") doesn't show any upgrade panels on the bottom view. At the very least, you are going to have to take off the whole bottom to do any upgrades at all.
The screwyness of the models makes me think it's just 3 random models they stuffed Zen into; not anything intended as a sequence of good/better/best. Asus's Intel models are a chaotic mess, why should their AMD ones be any better.
Why is it so hard to make a 2-in-1 with display mounted speakers, so they are always forward facing? Any other way and the speakers get obstructed in some fashion for one of the particular modes.
But yeah speakers on the side can be a problem. My android tablet's speakers are on the nominal bottom of the device. In portrait mode I normally hold it upside down (ie camera down) and try to avoid accidentally pressing the power button to avoid blocking the speakers any time I rest the bottom edge on something
Is the RAM dual channel? A few OEMs have been burdening their Ryzen laptops with single channel RAM. If Asus' models are single channel, they're not worth considering.
If you can wait, then sure, waiting for a Zen2-based mobile CPU/APU would be better.
If you need a laptop right now, and want AMD, then something like this would be decent.
Our current laptop is an ancient Acer with an AMD Athlon-II X2 CPU with "integrated" Radeon GPU. A RAM upgrade (DDR2 FTW!) and a SATA SSD have prolonged it's life; hopefully it will last until a Zen2 system is available. But it's nice to know there are not-garbage Zen+ systems out now.
I'm disappointed that the Flip 14 does not have the 1 TB SSD option or a 4K screen. I do like that you can get the 3700U and 16 GB RAM in there though.
Any idea on who provides the digitizer? Wacom AES, NTrig, ELAN, or someone else? Pen and digitizer support looks poor.
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GruenSein - Thursday, August 22, 2019 - link
I'd love to get an AMD-based mobile device but buying a Zen+-based machine months after Zen 2, which is not just a good competitor but actually just as fast or faster than Intel's offerings, has been released just feels wrong.sgeocla - Thursday, August 22, 2019 - link
Zen2 for now is just for desktops and servers. Those share the same CPU chipletd. It may take a while before it comes to mobile APUs such as Ryzen 3700 as they cannot use the normal Zen2 7nm dies and the IO dies that are actually 14nm.sing_electric - Thursday, August 22, 2019 - link
Doesn't make OP wrong - if you need a new laptop TODAY, sure, a Zen+ based one might be a decent choice, and it's refreshing to see Asus releasing AMD-based laptops that don't treat the platform like it belongs in the discount bin (as in, chunky plastic enclosure, medicore LCD screen and, in some cases, single channel RAM that really hurts performance).Having said that, if you can wait just a few months, you'll likely be able to get a 10nm Intel-based laptop, and at some point after that, a Zen2-based AMD one, which should have better performance and battery life, plus integrated graphics that will likely see a decent performance bump over the current 3000-series.
sgeocla - Thursday, August 22, 2019 - link
I never said he was wrong. Everyone is free to decide if the wait is worth it or not.Also, Intel 10nm laptops are crazy expensive and not much better than Intel 14nm laptops if you normalize for RAM speed (10nm use 3733 LPDDRD4x) and power envelope (15w to 15w, 25w to 25W).
Intel just launched new 10th gen 14nm laptops because 10nm is not mean to volume production. Cost won't come down much due to poor 10nm yields (max 4 cores vs 6 cores for 14nm).
eek2121 - Friday, August 23, 2019 - link
Laptops in general are a bad buy right now IMO. Unless you web browse, watch movies, and do homework (or work at a company that issues laptops like I do.) Performance on the mobile side has been stagnant until Intel rolled out 10nm. GPU technology is at a standstill.t.s - Friday, August 23, 2019 - link
Unfortunately, Intel one price is not that steep compared with AMD now. Notebook price is not dictated by whose CPU the manufacturer use, but how much the manufacturer want to sell you.Targon - Thursday, August 22, 2019 - link
AMD could just implement a 7nm I/O die for the APUs as well and go for the CPU+GPU core design. Not sure how the size would end up, though we could potentially end up with a Zen2+7nm Vega pairing if Navi cores aren't used. They don't NEED to do a special die that combines both.Hul8 - Thursday, August 22, 2019 - link
I believe the someone (AMD?) has mentioned that chiplet design doesn't suit the low-cost parts: The CCDs for Ryzen 3rd gen are manufactured at TSMC over in Asia and the I/O dies in the US at GlobalFoundries. With the further logistics and assembly required to get the finished product, it's not worth it. That's why they intend on having a single die for the 4000 series (Zen 2) APUs.eek2121 - Friday, August 23, 2019 - link
I don't believe it's been mentioned anywhere that they are going to have a single die. Maybe a single CCD, but that's a given, because the rest of the area is going to have a GPU. If we are lucky we MAY see them shrink the IO die to 7nm now that yields are up. That would drop the power budget and allow for more room for a better GPU.HStewart - Thursday, August 22, 2019 - link
This is crazy idea, but it would be possible to mix 7nm Zen2 CPU die with 14nm GPU die using Forevos but you probably will not want that.eek2121 - Friday, August 23, 2019 - link
I mean, it wouldn't be hard to have an on chip 14nm APU. ROME CPUs use 14nm I/O dies. Desktop Zen 2 chips use 12nm.Karmena - Friday, August 23, 2019 - link
Foveros components somewhere should support Infinity Fabric for that to work or AMD chiplets has to have some other interconnect to communicate.twotwotwo - Thursday, August 22, 2019 - link
This is not as simple as it sounds, of course, but both APUs and the semi-custom products for consoles are CPU+GPU. If they managed to share silicon between those two product lines (whether they share *the* die or parts of a multi-chip package), they could stick with their approach of building all their products around a minimal number of pieces, and probably deliver some good perf on the laptop side (though of course it won't have the watts, GDDR RAM, etc.).eek2121 - Thursday, August 22, 2019 - link
AMD is still behind Intel in the laptop world. WAY behind. They seriously need to get with it for both mobile (and APUs) and GPU.I suspect everything is intertwined. AMD COULD release Zen 2 mobile parts, they could have skipped over Zen+ completely, but I suspect the GPU is holding them back. I mean hell, they have 65watt TDP chips stomping the daylights out of Intel currently. I want to see what a 3600 would be TDP wise if it had a base clock of 2.3 GHz.
Teckk - Thursday, August 22, 2019 - link
That SSD and USB rows were a pain to read. Why did they have to make it so confusing..JanW1 - Thursday, August 22, 2019 - link
Does anybody know if these are M.2 SSDs or if they are soldered down as in the Dell XPS?voicequal - Thursday, August 22, 2019 - link
Not sure what XPS model you are talking about. The SSD and RAM are socketed in XPS 15 7590 (2019), not soldered down. https://youtu.be/HY4N08zreXk?t=739JanW1 - Friday, August 23, 2019 - link
Sorry, I should have been more specific: I was talking about the XPS 13 2-in-1.voodoobunny - Thursday, August 22, 2019 - link
Is the RAM in the 431 ("basic") model upgradeable or soldered down? If it's upgradable, what's the max memory it can handle? Upgradability would make it *much* more interesting.Also, it's weird that the "basic" model has BT5.0 but the higher models only have BT 4.2.
voodoobunny - Thursday, August 22, 2019 - link
... upgradability is not looking good - the manual (which you can get to from the links in the article - link -> "Support" -> "Manual & Document") doesn't show any upgrade panels on the bottom view. At the very least, you are going to have to take off the whole bottom to do any upgrades at all.DanNeely - Thursday, August 22, 2019 - link
The screwyness of the models makes me think it's just 3 random models they stuffed Zen into; not anything intended as a sequence of good/better/best. Asus's Intel models are a chaotic mess, why should their AMD ones be any better.richough3 - Thursday, August 22, 2019 - link
Why is it so hard to make a 2-in-1 with display mounted speakers, so they are always forward facing? Any other way and the speakers get obstructed in some fashion for one of the particular modes.Xyler94 - Thursday, August 22, 2019 - link
Size basically.DanNeely - Thursday, August 22, 2019 - link
Because they'd need larger bezels to hold them.But yeah speakers on the side can be a problem. My android tablet's speakers are on the nominal bottom of the device. In portrait mode I normally hold it upside down (ie camera down) and try to avoid accidentally pressing the power button to avoid blocking the speakers any time I rest the bottom edge on something
Mr Perfect - Thursday, August 22, 2019 - link
Is the RAM dual channel? A few OEMs have been burdening their Ryzen laptops with single channel RAM. If Asus' models are single channel, they're not worth considering.oRAirwolf - Thursday, August 22, 2019 - link
They are not worth considering because they use Zen+ based APU's. That is a deal killer for me. Zen2 or GTFO.phoenix_rizzen - Thursday, August 22, 2019 - link
Depends what your purchase timeline is like.If you can wait, then sure, waiting for a Zen2-based mobile CPU/APU would be better.
If you need a laptop right now, and want AMD, then something like this would be decent.
Our current laptop is an ancient Acer with an AMD Athlon-II X2 CPU with "integrated" Radeon GPU. A RAM upgrade (DDR2 FTW!) and a SATA SSD have prolonged it's life; hopefully it will last until a Zen2 system is available. But it's nice to know there are not-garbage Zen+ systems out now.
BigDragon - Thursday, August 22, 2019 - link
I'm disappointed that the Flip 14 does not have the 1 TB SSD option or a 4K screen. I do like that you can get the 3700U and 16 GB RAM in there though.Any idea on who provides the digitizer? Wacom AES, NTrig, ELAN, or someone else? Pen and digitizer support looks poor.
wheeqo - Friday, August 23, 2019 - link
better wait for Zen 2 7nm APU + DDR4-3200 + Thunderbolt 4 :Disthisavailable - Friday, August 23, 2019 - link
Why such tiny batteries? Just ditch the 2.5 inch bay already and give us bigger batteries.mmarkomarko - Friday, August 23, 2019 - link
asus really needs to start putting higher res screens in their laptops ASAP