The speed of light is still a pretty hard limit. They'd have to build out a lot of widespread infrastructure to ensure low latency. And maybe they do, but that's why i want to play it before saying much.
There is a blurry line between having local nodes everywhere and Microsoft's Xbox rental program, IMO. That's basically what it takes to get latency down. That being said, if one never experienced low latency gaming, then they would never know what they are missing out on. Same with gsync/freesync, high refresh rates, etc. Even then, some people will not notice a difference.
In the end, game streaming will probably be fine. Though I have a 60Mbps Comcast connection, and I would hesitate to call it "stable."
A majority of the world has low bandwidth, even in "first world" countries like the U.S. Then as said, latency, also jitter. If I was playing on WiFi, there will still be a chance of packet loss, especially in e.g. cities with high density, think apartment blocks next to other apartment blocks.
This "game service" will only be properly usable by a few, and only if you're used to it already, else most will rather have a PC/play on the device.
Latency for within the same city is usually fine, go past ~5-15ms, definitely not.
Streaming is often less than ideal even on the same layer 2 network.
I live in the boonies, started a computer service, built a wireless ISP from nothing, the towers, the hardware, everything. I've got tons of bandwidth in my home (do a lot of video editing as a hobby on my laptop) so I've got a little experience with networking.
Gran Turismo and Street Fighter are very sensitive to latency, particularly latency changes.
I can stream from one desktop to the other using Steam, stream to my laptop over 802.11ac (700+ air rates, 450Mbps confirmed in testing), stream from my PS4 over ethernet or wireless.
The latency is fine on most games, but certain ones are borderline unplayable. It is incredibly difficult to recover from a slide or the beginnings of a spinout when you only get the feedback and visual cues 5-10ms later.
Big explosions make the bitrate increase, which is fine, but often it doesn't increase quickly enough so it is pixelated badly and that sudden increase in bandwidth affects your latency as well.
We're talking about input latency of 1ms and video latency of under 6ms with hardware h264 encoding built into my GTX 970s.
The PS4 has hardware encoding as well, but there is still a delay.
Don't get me wrong, I love the streaming aspects of these systems, but it isn't a replacement for a console. Stuff like Modern Warfare, Skyrim, Fallout, those all work great. Matter of fact the compression tends to work out a lot of aliasing issues, so often you can stream a 1440p or 4k image to a 720p client and have a truly beautiful image when playing, but it just isn't quick enough for certain games.
It has made a few of my old Core 2 Duo systems useful again though.
They now work as portable monitors/gaming machines. They can't dream of running Arkham Knight but they function quite well as a remote control with display.
I remember being pretty psyched when OnLive was first announced in 2009, and then actually seeing it in action sometime around 2010/2011. It was horrible! Lots of artifacts, constant shifting to lower bitrate streams, pretty bad latency, frequent long pauses. Game streaming has improved somewhat over the years (I tried out GeForce Now recently), but it's still nowhere near that initial promise. You switch from GeForce Now over to a locally rendered game and it's a night and day upgrade.
The goalposts keep shifting too, in the sense that 2010 gamers would have been delighted with smooth 1080p/60 Hz gaming, but even if Google has that all sorted out it's unlikely they have 4K / 120 Hz low latency streaming working properly in the real world.
I don't agree, I think 1080p/30 will be the standard for streaming for the time being, and nobody will complain. Honestly surprised it's not 720p but I guess they have a good codec that can drop bitrate. Once you can instantly play games from YouTube, it won't matter what the quality or latency is, there will be little point in using anything else for most users.
I have lower latency with GCP compute nodes via WiFi in Europe than I have with my Bluetooth headset, or the input lag of my phone touchscreen for the matter.
They have the vast majority of that infrastructure already set up for their other services, all they need to do going forward is bring Stadia hardware into their existing data centers.
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Someone was able to determine that the demo they showed had on average 200ms of latency. That's during a keynote speech in what is likely about as best case a scenario as Google could put together, (I doubt they would have allowed anything to potentially ruin their presentation afterall). So in the real world it will be far worse than that. 200ms is worse ping than I currently get on conventional online games. It's probably ok for slow paced or turn based games but anything real time is going to suffer and if its competitive and online then it will be unplayable. I can't see anyone having a good experience in a competitive FPS with this service.
Yeah, I'd say get it down to a maximum of 50ms and I'd consider it for certain games. The one thing that bothers me the most would be delays in camera movement,
Linus Tech Tips did a review/preview of a streaming game service where the latency was around 13ms running locally and 22ms running remotely.
This was over fiber and the service was located in the same city I believe.
I've done quite a bit of playing with Steam and PS4 streaming. The latency added by the streaming itself isn't too bad, 1ms for the controls and less than 6ms for the video.
That works fine until I play Street Fighter or Gran Turismo, then it is painfully obvious. Even Batman Arkham series runs fine over it. I set up an EOIP bridge to my office over my wireless Internet service, three miles away as the crow flies, roughly ten miles of wireless links, three hops, total input latency was around 15ms and video was around 30ms but it was very playable. Again, Street Fighter would come apart, but Batman, Serious Sam HD, less timing intensive games ran fine, almost indistinguishable from local play.
Yeah and in most places fiber is not available. It's just now starting to be available in my city and only in limited neighborhoods.
To get a realistic idea of how it will work you have to consider what most people will have. I average around 100ms in normal online games. However having random spikes go much higher isn't uncommon and sometimes its just completely shits the bed.
Most people also aren't on the best optimized LANs with wired connections and QoS. They are usually on a crappy chinese router provided by the ISP with stock settings operating on WiFi in an area with crowded spectrum. I've seen some places where WiFi was provided sub dial up performance in the same room as the AP because there were 20 other APs within range broadcasting on the same channel.
The home network aspect can be fixed a bit with just some basic knowledge, but don't expect most users to have it. And it can be entirely eliminated with some knowledge and spending a bit of money, but again don't expect that to be the norm. The ISP issue however is often not up to the end user and completely out of their hands.
Games that are slow paced, strategy games like CIV or have a degree of slop in the controls, action games like your Arkhams of the world should be fine on a decent home network with a decent ISP. Games that require any level of precision; racers, FPS, fighting games will be unplayable. And like I said, the expectation should be a poorly designed network with an unreliable connection.
All the same. If you are in Portugal and the server is in the Netherlands or Germany or God forbid in the USA you will get a high latency that's directly proportional to the cable length + all the nodes in between. Not even counting the latency from your own hardware. Stadia is not for "competitive" multiplayer shooters, it's for single player mostly. And useless if it doesn't allow importing of game saves. But 200ms latency is too much even in single player games, unless it's not directly perceived by the end user.
The specs of that custom GPU sure look a lot like the specs of a Vega 56, although there's some stuff here that seems pretty weird. AVX2 "support" is potentially because Ryzen supports AVX2, just not at a higher throughput than AVX. However, the Memory section of that slide is the really weird part, because either they're being disingenuous by listing the GPU's HBM2 bandwidth there while implying that the CPU sees that bandwidth, or they're implying that the CPU and GPU both share a total of 16GB HBM2, which would suddenly make this a very very custom solution. My money is on the first hypothesis, because it's not even clear that this CPU is necessarily even an AMD part. The L2+L3 number is hard to reach with any common configuration of Zen cores that I can think of, but is perhaps more reasonable from a Skylake config.
The CPU and GPU sharing HBM2 would be a logical evolution of AMD's existing console platform, just updated for newer parts. It'd be custom work, but of a sort AMDs done before, and could potentially also feed into XBox/Playstation v.next work.
Yep, I'm thinking a custom 56 CU Instinct right below MI50 clocked at about 1500MHz. Google says total RAM is 16GB so I'm also going to guess that this is an APU with shared HBM2 memory.
I'm thinkin' a **pipe-cleaner** (Do we still use that term?) based upon the Radeon Pro WX 8200. It's hard to imagine an Instinct/Radeon VII at 7nm as such ... but here we are.
Specialized XXX TMUs / XX ROPs with "Freedom Fabrics" and ACE Compute Engines, built into the Stadia Radeon "Instinct Clusters" on the 'ABC' fiber backbone.
"LUKE! I'm your father ... " (In James Earl Jones voice)
Nice! Now Alphabet can creep on my PC gaming in addition to where I go, who I call, what's in my inbox, the contents of my text messages, and so on. Collect that data and sell me to the highest bidder in exchange for shitty free services you crazy, shiny diamond of free candy in a windowless van down by the river!
That's part of the equation, but loads of websites take the lazy way out and grab Google-supplied APIs to build page elements and are partnered with Google through its Ad Services platform to generate revenue so just changing where you search is only the tip of a very large iceberg that is capable of monitoring your web activity against your consent. Load up a good script blocker and you'll see what I mean. Google is literally everywhere.
Well Microsoft, Steam/Ubisoft/Epic/Origin already have your data, as well as any government that also governs its national IP network (used to be called Internet), so you're not giving up much.
But I agree that it's another reason to break it up into many baby Googles, one for every couple of million inhabitants or so.
And Google are such assholes when you try turn off as much of their spying as possible. I disabled most of it on my Android phone and now it pretends not to even have an address book in gmail. If starting a new email chain I need to type out the entire email of whomever it is.
Same with google maps, I'm not allowed to even set a home address that could be on local memory.
This is a ridiculous behavior, but apparently fines from the EU of over one billion every few years isn't enough to get them to change. I guess fine them more?
Yeah, we need the EU to levy much, much larger fines against Alphabet/Google and continue to do so repeatedly since the US is doing literally nothing about the data mining problem.
I'm amused that anyone thinks such fines make the slightest bit of difference. Where do you think the money goes? Politically and ideologically speaking, Google and the EU are very much aligned. Follow the money; I guarantee Google ends up getting most of it back.
And btw, given that the EU has just passed articles 11 & 13, the most outrageous attacks on freedom of speech, etc. in decades, who the hell would ever trust the EU to do anything that's in the interests of consumers??
The old Juncker farts of EU are playing with totalitarianism while Google is bombarding me with ads in a language that's not even my own just because I live in certain place in the World. Even this site, anandtech.com is stressing me up with those "Buy the right CPU" and shit vids. It's all Murikan BS.
I have noticed that this is the new mantra so to speak. Online streaming of games yes of coarse the term has been around for a while now and a few others have tried and failed at it. So now it looks like the big guys/gals want to try it now as well and probably have to throw a tonne of money at it to get it so people would hopefully actually like to use these new services.
For me personally I can ot see myself wanting to use a service like this to get my game on.
Which is the biggest actual drawback, advertising doesn't do it justice, when you use multiple devices you are still limited by the hardware you own. It will turn off lots of people to it when they relize that 55 inch 4k TV still looks like shit with the DPI so low.
The problem here is that I think a lot of people will look at the daunting costs of a modern gaming PC and shrug, then pull out their sub-$100 phone to play something that will keep them equally busy for just as many hours at little to no additional cost rather than look for a bandwidth intensive, network dependent streaming solution. Games are just games. Only a small handful of people take them seriously enough to throw significant money at hardware beyond snagging the latest console.
You still have to pay for an equally powerful system. Just this is a subscription, so you pay over time (the hardware for Google will be significantly cheaper, but still expensive). Google/Alphabet aren't a charity.
Maybe due to -ed instead of -ing? And it's the technology that is proprietary, not sure if they trademarked the name? On Intel's site I don't see any trademark symbols.
It is a huge market of people in poor countries with huge bandwidth and no money to buy consoles or high end GPU. This guy will ask his parents to rent this service and play .
Think its a good very good ideea.
Eastern Europe has 1GBps fiber every building for 5 USD per month but avg salary is less than RTX 2080 . Trust me this is huge potential .
Yah, but its not like its being touted, no matter what is streamed to the device you choose, its still limited by the hardware limit of said device you have. Lots of people are going to be disappointed to see how it looks and feels on devices unless it meets or exceeds the max they show.
Nevermind the bandwidth that its going to use, lots still have small data caps even if fast internet.
I don't think hardware performance will be an issue - practically everything released in the last, what, 10 yeary, can reliably decode 1080p@30+ fps. Now, with input devices it gets a little trickier, but surely there is a way to use a simple controller with your phone?
What I've been wondering is, how does streaming affect power consumption? Surely all the arbitration and encoding, sending gigabytes worth of data across a high speed connection, let alone running the actual game, will require a tad more electricity than running the game locally?
The placing of your /s makes it unclear where the sarcasm is directed. Most people put the closing tag at the end of what they are trying to say sarcastically but yours is at the beginning of the line.
I thought the original post was perhaps "deep irony," that you made a grammar mistake in a post whining about grammar mistakes. But this followup post seems to confirm you are just an obnoxious, but even more oblivious, troll?
It was being written in real time as it was being announced which is part of it. Some people really don't like the way I write, it doesn't gel with them. I get one or two people a year who say that I write opposite to how they think and it gets confusing. Not sure if a regional thing or what.
I was wondering if someone could let me know if its better to have a higher thread/ count CPU to run the run stadia program on chrome? or web browsers use more of the threads of a CPU? Or it doesn't really matter?
Exactly. If you can play a 4K60 stream now without loosing frames (or too many at least) then you can use Stadia at it's highest specs. But even a 1080p60 stream will be plenty playable in most scenarios, like on a TV.
Well, except Youtube can pre buffer the clip to smooth out any bandwidth fluctuations. A real time game can't do that so if you are right near your maximum bandwidth the resolution might have to step down from what works on Youtube.
Not one mention of latency or input lag in the presentation.
You need less 8ms response time between you and the server farm, to keep within one frame input latency on 60FPS, which means that even in the best case disregarding processing in your brain/controller/computer you will have 24ms between seeing a scene reacting on it and seeing a change, in reality it will probably be minimum two frames input lag and if you have a worse response time it will just get worse.
It's more of a threat for console gaming than desktop gaming.
I've been playing on Nvidia's GeForce Now service through my Shield TV and honestly, the latency isn't really noticeable after a bit unless you're really looking for it. Heck, I had more latency using Gamestream from my PC over WiFi!
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Probably because its one of the few games that runs on Linux and Vulkan.
I do play some Linux games (Dying Light), but I'm surprised they're not just running Windows boxes that hook up to Steam library. Otherwise you're limited to games that dont use DirectX....and ported to Linux.
Visual latency may be an issue that Google seems confident to combat, given that they have invested heavily into cutting latency up to the point where evidently they give out connectivity kits to TelCos, because it's cheaper to give those away than compensate latency on their side (I remember a very clear quote from Eric Brewer in that sense).
But with games drifting towards giant open world maps with massive amounts of users, model latency becomes a much bigger issue: What's the use of 144FPS if no two systems can agree on where players stand in the game space?
And while the amount of data that may need to be exchanged to update model data is much more difficult to control, the requirements for streaming the video are pretty flat and much better to control.
I still think Google needs to be broken up in many more letters than a simple Alphabet, but technologically this makes ever so much sense.
I played their beta for the new Assassin's Creed and am located in Morgantown WV. It was completely playable with compressed images happening occasionally. They gave everyone in the beta a free Uplay copy afterwards. Definitely looks better locally, but it requires a good rig. I can see this for people who can't afford an expensive computer or don't want to upgrade. If the local copy gets a 10/10 for visuals, I'd give the stream 8/10.
Google's name might be big enough to make this seem reliable, but I'm seeing more and more a need for a MoviesAnywhere type system of Game licensing. Pay for the perpetual license once and then play on any platform that the game has been ported to.
I'm fine paying a monthly fee to use Google's hardware to play a game, but don't see re-paying for games I have already purchased, and I'm not sure I would want to pay $50+ for a game exclusively on Stadia with no offline capability.
If the service is like Netflix where $10-15/mo gives full access to all available games then it might be appealing. If the price is at all higher, or if you have to buy a game license and also maintain a monthly service fee, then I'm not sure it will attract me at all.
Google has data centers all over the world and they control a good chunk of the internet backbone. That, along with their data center expertise, is what will make it reliable. Their name might be enough to convince big developers to develop for what is essentially another console.
Microsoft also has the data centers and expertise to do such a thing, though I believe they don't have the backbone. They wouldn't even need to develop all the technology like Google did, because NVIDIA already has it. They could just partner with NVIDIA. Microsoft can also make it like developing for the XBox therefore making it easier for developers already targeting the XBox.
If you read the small print, you may notice that you didn't actually purchase a game.You just purchased a temporary restricted right to use while you signed away the right to your private data for life, yours and your progeny, should you remember to have any.
Purchase is iNdentured iServitude or even iSlavery these days.
Is it just me, or does 2.7GHz seem pretty low for a gaming setup?
I guess they have no choice really if they want density, since those high-core-count chips just don't clock that high, but I wonder if that won't result in a problem somewhere. Of course they could just force quality down to make it work, but they seem to want to promise more quality.
Consoles get away with weak CPUs. This thing is basically a console hosted in the cloud with some controller software allowing multiple consoles to be lashed together.
Datacenter CPUs typically clock lower than desktop/enthusiast. You want to run for max power efficiency not for max performance. Suspect the margins c1Ghz to get to peak clock will dump out a ton more heat than the first 2.7 Ghz..
As a teacher, this could be a nightmare as my students will be able to game on a Chrome browser. Currently, they cannot install software due to firewalls or operating systems (ie:Chrome OS vs Win). I just hope our tech team can configure the firewall correctly or it will be a tough battle to keep them off the likes of Fortnite or Apex. Unfortunately, our IT still cannot block Youtube effectively. :D
Don't worry, Stadia can be easily blocked. Unless you are talking about students who bring their own private laptops with Internet connection. That should not be allowed. Then again I've seen videos of "students" hitting their teachers while their classmates where grabbing a video to post it on YouTube. In my times the worst we did was to play Starcraft and Carmageddon over the IT lab's local network.
Super compelling. They only factor Google can get this wrong is pricing. They have to absorb the costs for a while to suck gamers into the system. I wonder there is no mention of streaming smartphone games, it could allow cheaper phones to enjoy quality found in more expensive phones aside from improving the overall streaming experience
It's quite possible the base service will be free (check the leaks reported by TheQuartering), ie. the main revenue model will be adverts and microtransactions, plus initial game purchase costs. People might complain about this here, but the mass market has already made it very clear they're perfectly happy with this.
I just vomitted a little bit in my mouth. Why? Because I hate the very idea of game streaming with a passion.
The very thought of being (even more) at the mercy of an ISP and "playing" a highly compressed video stream just sends shivers down my spine.
And then of course there's Google. They're probably frothing at the mouth in expectation of all the ads they can shove down our throat this way. They already have way too much information about us as it is.
I can understand your trepidation, but if the service *works*, and people are content with the privacy tradeoff, then we should start discussing the consequences and implications. As it is, everyone is ranting about latency, privacy, ownership, or some combination. I'm more interested in what this will all mean for the industry as a whole and the future of gaming, on the assumption that Google will be able to make it functionally viable. I don't like the privacy and other issues either, but I'm an old git. The reality is that in years to come people wil grow up with this sort of system regarded as normal; heck, we already have this.
People are choosing to believe Stadia will fail because they want that to be the case, which is unwise. We would do better to ponder the effects of it being a success. All the comments about latency are based on completely different and much older systems. People are also ignoring the +ves, eg. Stadia putting pressure on ISPs to improve their services - I keep seeing people in the US moaning about how bad their net links are, so time to pressure ISPs to do better. And if there's *demand* for a better service than that is a market opportunity for someone new to step in and do it better. I bet direct Google fibre into the home will become a lot more popular. In theory Google could end up replacing a lot of ISP business entirely. In the long term, who knows, Stadia may become the new internet, the old tech regarded as being as oudated as MySpace. I'm speculating here, but you get the idea. Everyone is focus on the negatives because if their own biases and desires, which is understandable but does ignore the genuine +ves, regardless of the nature of Google as a company (I certainly don't like all their globalist, leftist, SJW nonsense).
I see lots of people saying they will not use Stadia, but I bet in 5 years if it's become a roaring success a great many such people will by then have changed their mind.
I don't want Stadia to fail. I might even be tempted to use it when I'm not near my desktop, say in vacations. Like I could be temped to use cocaine, LDS or any such poisons, to cloud my mind and make me...dream? BUT I'M NOT! Alcohol and Google ads are enough drugs to last me a lifetime! I don't want Stadia because it's just another piece of Games As Service crap! Just like EA and Activision, Stadia and Google are CANCER! (sorry for the cliche)
"Could Google’s Stadia bring back multi-GPU gaming?
UL Benchmarks (formerly Futuremark) suggested in a recent release that multiple GPUs could be a way to provide enough power for such effects. It even released a demonstration video showcasing how Google’s Stadia could leverage multiple graphics cards as and when required, to prevent too broad a framerate variation despite the complexity of a scene increasing."
The CPU is most likely a low-power derivative of Skylake-X. The 9.5MB combined L2 and L3 cache size is a good clue. The Skylake-X architecture uses non-inclusive caches, so a quad-core SKU will feature 1.375MB L3 + 1MB L2 multiplied by 4 that gives exactly a total of 9.5MB, as stated in the presentation.
Was there some part of AMD you didn't understand? :D Intel was not one of the listed partners. The compute node is far more likely to be a Zen2 + Vega or Navi (with HBM2) APU hybrid. Quite clever really.
Caveat to this, after finding more info. Looks like Google is using an Intel CPU just now for testing, but planning to move to Zen2 later, which makes sense.
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They start and abandon so many of their high-falutin ideas (The Information Superhighway beamed to Africans with big Balloons, Fiber on every street corner).
Many of these exist in an overlapping, feature-creep hell (Voice, Allo, Hangouts, Fi, Groups, Wave, Gchat, G+, Spaces, messenger, duo), while others languish in the purgatory of eternal Beta, changing GUIs and features, just in time to destroy any sense of interface consistentcy and familiarity (Gmail).
Full Disclosure: I'm slowly transitioning to what would have likely been Churchill's choice for privacy, Apple.
We still have issues streaming Youtube in our area. Home, work, it doesn't matter. All other sites and streaming services are fine. Netflix had problems too, until they paid up to last mile vendors.
So the issue will be the ISP in a majority of cases.
I'm all for it, but with huge amounts of bandwidth needed and the never ending data caps imposed, I don't see a bright future for this.
Your ISP will be happy to sell you an 'internet gaming' package with stadia whitelisted for just $29.99 a month on top of your internet package and Stadia's charges.
According to TheQuartering it's quite likely the base Stadia service will be free. The revenue model being based more on ads and microtransactions, plus initial game purchases.
I was on the PC beta with Assassins Creed Odyssey. You couldn't go beyond 1080p, sometimes choppy. I have serious doubts about 4k for any action game. i was on hardwired connection 400Mbs down and 2080ti. i can run 4k without issue.
Interesting you mentioned that game. With this service gamers who own an AND Phenom could play that game, were locally they couldn't because the DRM requires a specific SSE version.
Really was hoping Microsoft and Sony would pick up GPU Virtualization for their consoles (to power a second stream to a second, or more, stream). Looks like this is where they're going instead.
What a waste. Adding GPU virtualization and the ensuing things you can do with it would give consoles a boost that consumer GPUs will not get any time soon without increasing cost of the console substantially (yes, software development costs, but not hardware per unit costs).
Honestly the image quality difference is mostly in the rendering, not the display.
Render at 4K and display that on a 1080P monitor and it is still gorgeous.
Not sure 4K or 8K actual display is needed and by the time you compress for streaming that may actually have worse image quality than 1080P.
I mean right now my 970 can encode 4K at like 200FPS for streaming but big action scenes, explosions, etc, the bitrate doesn't spike quickly enough and details are lost. Given a second the bitrate increases but by then the action is over. I typically stream at 720p or 1080p while rendering at 1440. The image quality is excellent that way, same as with DSR.
Not mentioned anywhere is pricing. I don't think many people will be willing to pay a full $60 for game streaming. A subscription price for unlimited games, or free games with micro transaction are probably the only ways to go.
Very skeptical in generally. Youtube already looks like shite most of the time.
You can't beat physics in regards to the problem of latency in input controls. Not all games require fantastically low latency though, so there should be a decent number of games to play acceptably. Many of those games that won't fit don't rely on an internet connection anyway.
One big problem I see is Internet access and data limits. This will probably use a lot of data, especially since people will be using it run games they can't run on their hardware. In Japan, I'm fine (although I'd probably get an angry letter about using too much data), but in my home country of the UK, most households don't even have the necessary bandwidth, let alone adequate usage limits.
ISP's will always sell you on the bandwidth. I've had a 100mbps connection in the states for about 10 years up until the last 2 years and now I have 500mbps. Bandwidth available isn't always a good indicator of latency and stability. Google's service requires not only a decent amount of bandwidth to support it, but will require a very low latency and stable connection to provide a good user experience. A very stable and low latency connection is more important here and the speed at which you can download a file.
So many people talk about this, but the fact is Google is the one company with the network infrastructure to make this viable. Just a pity it's a company like Google that's doing it, given their leftist/SJW/globalist leanings.
I'll wait and see if it actually works. Knowing a few things about the internet and how normal video streaming works (ie- pre-roll buffering, which would totally kill game streaming) I'm a bit skeptical.
Your first sentence is about the most sensible comment in this entire thread. Far too many are just writing Stadia off without any rationale, usually because they want it to fail and therefore they choose to believe it will fail. Thus, thumbs up for the more balanced consideration.
Stadia may indeed not work out, but I wish we were all talking a lot more about its implications if Google can get it working as advertised, because if they can it could be the most disruptive change in multiple industries in a long time. Who's going to remember arguments about latency if gaming PCs as a thing are effectively gone in 10 years?
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Now Nvidia will have another excuse to increase the price of their next generation of graphics cards: low demand of discrete cards due to online streaming of games.
Well Microsoft, Steam/Ubisoft/Epic/Origin already have your data, as well as any government that also governs its national IP network (used to be called Internet), so you're not giving up much.
But I agree that it's another reason to break it up into many baby Googles, one for every couple of million inhabitants or so.
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tipoo - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
The speed of light is still a pretty hard limit. They'd have to build out a lot of widespread infrastructure to ensure low latency. And maybe they do, but that's why i want to play it before saying much.jeremyshaw - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
There is a blurry line between having local nodes everywhere and Microsoft's Xbox rental program, IMO. That's basically what it takes to get latency down. That being said, if one never experienced low latency gaming, then they would never know what they are missing out on. Same with gsync/freesync, high refresh rates, etc. Even then, some people will not notice a difference.In the end, game streaming will probably be fine. Though I have a 60Mbps Comcast connection, and I would hesitate to call it "stable."
RSAUser - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
A majority of the world has low bandwidth, even in "first world" countries like the U.S. Then as said, latency, also jitter. If I was playing on WiFi, there will still be a chance of packet loss, especially in e.g. cities with high density, think apartment blocks next to other apartment blocks.This "game service" will only be properly usable by a few, and only if you're used to it already, else most will rather have a PC/play on the device.
Latency for within the same city is usually fine, go past ~5-15ms, definitely not.
0ldman79 - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
RSAUser knows the score.Streaming is often less than ideal even on the same layer 2 network.
I live in the boonies, started a computer service, built a wireless ISP from nothing, the towers, the hardware, everything. I've got tons of bandwidth in my home (do a lot of video editing as a hobby on my laptop) so I've got a little experience with networking.
Gran Turismo and Street Fighter are very sensitive to latency, particularly latency changes.
I can stream from one desktop to the other using Steam, stream to my laptop over 802.11ac (700+ air rates, 450Mbps confirmed in testing), stream from my PS4 over ethernet or wireless.
The latency is fine on most games, but certain ones are borderline unplayable. It is incredibly difficult to recover from a slide or the beginnings of a spinout when you only get the feedback and visual cues 5-10ms later.
Big explosions make the bitrate increase, which is fine, but often it doesn't increase quickly enough so it is pixelated badly and that sudden increase in bandwidth affects your latency as well.
We're talking about input latency of 1ms and video latency of under 6ms with hardware h264 encoding built into my GTX 970s.
The PS4 has hardware encoding as well, but there is still a delay.
Don't get me wrong, I love the streaming aspects of these systems, but it isn't a replacement for a console. Stuff like Modern Warfare, Skyrim, Fallout, those all work great. Matter of fact the compression tends to work out a lot of aliasing issues, so often you can stream a 1440p or 4k image to a 720p client and have a truly beautiful image when playing, but it just isn't quick enough for certain games.
It has made a few of my old Core 2 Duo systems useful again though.
They now work as portable monitors/gaming machines. They can't dream of running Arkham Knight but they function quite well as a remote control with display.
flyingpants265 - Thursday, March 21, 2019 - link
There are tests of similar services and they're behind by about 4 frames, or 65ms.gerz1219 - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
I remember being pretty psyched when OnLive was first announced in 2009, and then actually seeing it in action sometime around 2010/2011. It was horrible! Lots of artifacts, constant shifting to lower bitrate streams, pretty bad latency, frequent long pauses. Game streaming has improved somewhat over the years (I tried out GeForce Now recently), but it's still nowhere near that initial promise. You switch from GeForce Now over to a locally rendered game and it's a night and day upgrade.The goalposts keep shifting too, in the sense that 2010 gamers would have been delighted with smooth 1080p/60 Hz gaming, but even if Google has that all sorted out it's unlikely they have 4K / 120 Hz low latency streaming working properly in the real world.
flyingpants265 - Thursday, March 21, 2019 - link
I don't agree, I think 1080p/30 will be the standard for streaming for the time being, and nobody will complain. Honestly surprised it's not 720p but I guess they have a good codec that can drop bitrate. Once you can instantly play games from YouTube, it won't matter what the quality or latency is, there will be little point in using anything else for most users.SirPerro - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
I have lower latency with GCP compute nodes via WiFi in Europe than I have with my Bluetooth headset, or the input lag of my phone touchscreen for the matter.Manch - Friday, March 22, 2019 - link
LOL, no you dont.2b3o4o - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
They have the vast majority of that infrastructure already set up for their other services, all they need to do going forward is bring Stadia hardware into their existing data centers.Faciet - Saturday, November 23, 2019 - link
Génial! Le streaming gagne de plus en plus en popularité chez les joueurs. Je préfère jouer dans les casinos en ligne à l'adresse https://fr.casinoonlineschweiz24.com/casino-en-lig... Il y a beaucoup de machines à sous avec lesquelles je peux gagner de l'argent et il me semble que c'est une bonne raison de diffuserzmatt - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
Someone was able to determine that the demo they showed had on average 200ms of latency. That's during a keynote speech in what is likely about as best case a scenario as Google could put together, (I doubt they would have allowed anything to potentially ruin their presentation afterall). So in the real world it will be far worse than that. 200ms is worse ping than I currently get on conventional online games. It's probably ok for slow paced or turn based games but anything real time is going to suffer and if its competitive and online then it will be unplayable. I can't see anyone having a good experience in a competitive FPS with this service.emilemil1 - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
Yeah, I'd say get it down to a maximum of 50ms and I'd consider it for certain games. The one thing that bothers me the most would be delays in camera movement,0ldman79 - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
Linus Tech Tips did a review/preview of a streaming game service where the latency was around 13ms running locally and 22ms running remotely.This was over fiber and the service was located in the same city I believe.
I've done quite a bit of playing with Steam and PS4 streaming. The latency added by the streaming itself isn't too bad, 1ms for the controls and less than 6ms for the video.
That works fine until I play Street Fighter or Gran Turismo, then it is painfully obvious. Even Batman Arkham series runs fine over it. I set up an EOIP bridge to my office over my wireless Internet service, three miles away as the crow flies, roughly ten miles of wireless links, three hops, total input latency was around 15ms and video was around 30ms but it was very playable. Again, Street Fighter would come apart, but Batman, Serious Sam HD, less timing intensive games ran fine, almost indistinguishable from local play.
zmatt - Friday, March 22, 2019 - link
Yeah and in most places fiber is not available. It's just now starting to be available in my city and only in limited neighborhoods.To get a realistic idea of how it will work you have to consider what most people will have. I average around 100ms in normal online games. However having random spikes go much higher isn't uncommon and sometimes its just completely shits the bed.
Most people also aren't on the best optimized LANs with wired connections and QoS. They are usually on a crappy chinese router provided by the ISP with stock settings operating on WiFi in an area with crowded spectrum. I've seen some places where WiFi was provided sub dial up performance in the same room as the AP because there were 20 other APs within range broadcasting on the same channel.
The home network aspect can be fixed a bit with just some basic knowledge, but don't expect most users to have it. And it can be entirely eliminated with some knowledge and spending a bit of money, but again don't expect that to be the norm. The ISP issue however is often not up to the end user and completely out of their hands.
Games that are slow paced, strategy games like CIV or have a degree of slop in the controls, action games like your Arkhams of the world should be fine on a decent home network with a decent ISP. Games that require any level of precision; racers, FPS, fighting games will be unplayable. And like I said, the expectation should be a poorly designed network with an unreliable connection.
Gastec - Saturday, March 30, 2019 - link
All the same. If you are in Portugal and the server is in the Netherlands or Germany or God forbid in the USA you will get a high latency that's directly proportional to the cable length + all the nodes in between. Not even counting the latency from your own hardware. Stadia is not for "competitive" multiplayer shooters, it's for single player mostly. And useless if it doesn't allow importing of game saves. But 200ms latency is too much even in single player games, unless it's not directly perceived by the end user.anonomouse - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
The specs of that custom GPU sure look a lot like the specs of a Vega 56, although there's some stuff here that seems pretty weird. AVX2 "support" is potentially because Ryzen supports AVX2, just not at a higher throughput than AVX. However, the Memory section of that slide is the really weird part, because either they're being disingenuous by listing the GPU's HBM2 bandwidth there while implying that the CPU sees that bandwidth, or they're implying that the CPU and GPU both share a total of 16GB HBM2, which would suddenly make this a very very custom solution. My money is on the first hypothesis, because it's not even clear that this CPU is necessarily even an AMD part. The L2+L3 number is hard to reach with any common configuration of Zen cores that I can think of, but is perhaps more reasonable from a Skylake config.formulaLS - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
Google's list of partners doesn't have Intel listed but has AMD listed. So I would expect AMD CPU and GPU.DanNeely - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
The CPU and GPU sharing HBM2 would be a logical evolution of AMD's existing console platform, just updated for newer parts. It'd be custom work, but of a sort AMDs done before, and could potentially also feed into XBox/Playstation v.next work.BigMamaInHouse - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
Looks like AMD Custom APU with 16GB HBM2 on-board shared between CPU/GPU!.SirPerro - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
Wouldn't a "PlayStation 5" sort of custom solution in racks make a lot of sense from an AMD optimization and Development engagement perspective?That'd be a win-win-win for everyone
Smell This - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
AMD Radeon Pro WX 8200(~Vega 56~)
56 compute units
3584 stream processors
224 TMUs
64 ROPs
16GB / 4096-bit wide HBM2 memory
FP16 (half) performance
► 21,934 GFLOPS (2:1)
FP32 (float) performance
► 10,967 GFLOPS
FP64 (double) performance
► 685.4 GFLOPS (1:16)
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-pro-w...
Might be a wiener at 7nm and 150W +/-
Smell This - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
. . . . Smells like a **Radeon Vxx / Instinct**jordanclock - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
Yep, I'm thinking a custom 56 CU Instinct right below MI50 clocked at about 1500MHz. Google says total RAM is 16GB so I'm also going to guess that this is an APU with shared HBM2 memory.Smell This - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
I'm thinkin' a **pipe-cleaner** (Do we still use that term?) based upon the Radeon Pro WX 8200. It's hard to imagine an Instinct/Radeon VII at 7nm as such ... but here we are.
Specialized XXX TMUs / XX ROPs with "Freedom Fabrics" and ACE Compute Engines, built into the Stadia Radeon "Instinct Clusters" on the 'ABC' fiber backbone.
"LUKE! I'm your father ... "
(In James Earl Jones voice)
PeachNCream - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
Nice! Now Alphabet can creep on my PC gaming in addition to where I go, who I call, what's in my inbox, the contents of my text messages, and so on. Collect that data and sell me to the highest bidder in exchange for shitty free services you crazy, shiny diamond of free candy in a windowless van down by the river!29a - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
You should buy an Apple phone.Speedfriend - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
You should buy an Apple phone.So Apple can sell the right for Google to be the search engine on their phone and then track you
Xyler94 - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
Or you know, take the 5 seconds to go into the Safari settings and change your search engine?PeachNCream - Thursday, March 21, 2019 - link
That's part of the equation, but loads of websites take the lazy way out and grab Google-supplied APIs to build page elements and are partnered with Google through its Ad Services platform to generate revenue so just changing where you search is only the tip of a very large iceberg that is capable of monitoring your web activity against your consent. Load up a good script blocker and you'll see what I mean. Google is literally everywhere.abufrejoval - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
Well Microsoft, Steam/Ubisoft/Epic/Origin already have your data, as well as any government that also governs its national IP network (used to be called Internet), so you're not giving up much.But I agree that it's another reason to break it up into many baby Googles, one for every couple of million inhabitants or so.
Gastec - Saturday, March 30, 2019 - link
There is a big difference between the AMERICAN corporation Google (Alphabet) and my nation's government.Yojimbo - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
Yes, exactly. Plus Google already has too much control over my content and its delivery. I wouldn't use Stadia even if it were great.M O B - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
And Google are such assholes when you try turn off as much of their spying as possible. I disabled most of it on my Android phone and now it pretends not to even have an address book in gmail. If starting a new email chain I need to type out the entire email of whomever it is.Same with google maps, I'm not allowed to even set a home address that could be on local memory.
This is a ridiculous behavior, but apparently fines from the EU of over one billion every few years isn't enough to get them to change. I guess fine them more?
PeachNCream - Thursday, March 21, 2019 - link
Yeah, we need the EU to levy much, much larger fines against Alphabet/Google and continue to do so repeatedly since the US is doing literally nothing about the data mining problem.mapesdhs - Thursday, March 21, 2019 - link
I'm amused that anyone thinks such fines make the slightest bit of difference. Where do you think the money goes? Politically and ideologically speaking, Google and the EU are very much aligned. Follow the money; I guarantee Google ends up getting most of it back.mapesdhs - Thursday, March 28, 2019 - link
And btw, given that the EU has just passed articles 11 & 13, the most outrageous attacks on freedom of speech, etc. in decades, who the hell would ever trust the EU to do anything that's in the interests of consumers??Gastec - Saturday, March 30, 2019 - link
The old Juncker farts of EU are playing with totalitarianism while Google is bombarding me with ads in a language that's not even my own just because I live in certain place in the World. Even this site, anandtech.com is stressing me up with those "Buy the right CPU" and shit vids. It's all Murikan BS.prophet001 - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
This is 100% accurate....but it is with Apple too.
Gastec - Saturday, March 30, 2019 - link
We'd go down to the riverAnd into the river we'd dive
Oh down to the river we'd ride.
MattMe - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
Google will probably pull it six months after they release it anyway, so it's really not that exciting at all...WarlockOfOz - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
Zing!rocky12345 - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
I have noticed that this is the new mantra so to speak. Online streaming of games yes of coarse the term has been around for a while now and a few others have tried and failed at it. So now it looks like the big guys/gals want to try it now as well and probably have to throw a tonne of money at it to get it so people would hopefully actually like to use these new services.For me personally I can ot see myself wanting to use a service like this to get my game on.
web2dot0 - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
This is for people who don't have a gaming PC or a casual gamer or a laptop user who want access to gaming.It's alot cheaper than spending $2000-3000 on a PC just to play 4k60fps games.
imaheadcase - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
Which is the biggest actual drawback, advertising doesn't do it justice, when you use multiple devices you are still limited by the hardware you own. It will turn off lots of people to it when they relize that 55 inch 4k TV still looks like shit with the DPI so low.PeachNCream - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
The problem here is that I think a lot of people will look at the daunting costs of a modern gaming PC and shrug, then pull out their sub-$100 phone to play something that will keep them equally busy for just as many hours at little to no additional cost rather than look for a bandwidth intensive, network dependent streaming solution. Games are just games. Only a small handful of people take them seriously enough to throw significant money at hardware beyond snagging the latest console.Tams80 - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
You still have to pay for an equally powerful system. Just this is a subscription, so you pay over time (the hardware for Google will be significantly cheaper, but still expensive). Google/Alphabet aren't a charity.Your ISP is going to want some compensation too.
The Hardcard - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
I thought hyperthreading was an Intel term. I’s OK use it for AMD?RSAUser - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
Maybe due to -ed instead of -ing? And it's the technology that is proprietary, not sure if they trademarked the name? On Intel's site I don't see any trademark symbols.RSAUser - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
copyright* on the nameRSAUser - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
Wait, it is trademark, since name. I hate legalese.mapesdhs - Thursday, March 28, 2019 - link
Most likely the current test system uses Intel, but Google plans to transition to Zen2 later.WinterCharm - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
Simultaneous Multi-Threading (SMT) is the generic term for it.RaduR - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
It is a huge market of people in poor countries with huge bandwidth and no money to buy consoles or high end GPU. This guy will ask his parents to rent this service and play .Think its a good very good ideea.
Eastern Europe has 1GBps fiber every building for 5 USD per month but avg salary is less than RTX 2080 . Trust me this is huge potential .
imaheadcase - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
Yah, but its not like its being touted, no matter what is streamed to the device you choose, its still limited by the hardware limit of said device you have. Lots of people are going to be disappointed to see how it looks and feels on devices unless it meets or exceeds the max they show.Nevermind the bandwidth that its going to use, lots still have small data caps even if fast internet.
dr.denton - Sunday, March 24, 2019 - link
I don't think hardware performance will be an issue - practically everything released in the last, what, 10 yeary, can reliably decode 1080p@30+ fps.Now, with input devices it gets a little trickier, but surely there is a way to use a simple controller with your phone?
What I've been wondering is, how does streaming affect power consumption? Surely all the arbitration and encoding, sending gigabytes worth of data across a high speed connection, let alone running the actual game, will require a tad more electricity than running the game locally?
29a - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
Is it just me or was that hard to read because it needed to ran past an editor to clean up the mistakes?jeremyshaw - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
Oh, look. 29a made a grammatical error. This completely removes any relevance his post had on the article./s, of course.
29a - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
The placing of your /s makes it unclear where the sarcasm is directed. Most people put the closing tag at the end of what they are trying to say sarcastically but yours is at the beginning of the line.MadManMark - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
I thought the original post was perhaps "deep irony," that you made a grammar mistake in a post whining about grammar mistakes. But this followup post seems to confirm you are just an obnoxious, but even more oblivious, troll?bji - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
29a's comments were pretty mild. Not sure why your panties are wadded up into such a tight bundle over them.Ian Cutress - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
It was being written in real time as it was being announced which is part of it. Some people really don't like the way I write, it doesn't gel with them. I get one or two people a year who say that I write opposite to how they think and it gets confusing. Not sure if a regional thing or what.imaheadcase - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
I've never in my life heard the term "doesn't gel with them". So yah.Tams80 - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
That says more about you tbh.29a - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
It may be the accent that I'm having trouble with.Ranger90125 - Friday, March 22, 2019 - link
Your writing style is very good and I know exactly what "gel with them" means. Thanks and keep up the quality work.Tams80 - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
It seems fine to me.scottpar28 - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
I was wondering if someone could let me know if its better to have a higher thread/ count CPU to run the run stadia program on chrome? or web browsers use more of the threads of a CPU?Or it doesn't really matter?
Zoolook - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
You are basically looking at a stream, if you can watch a youtube clip in the same resolution/freq you're fine.jordanclock - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
Exactly. If you can play a 4K60 stream now without loosing frames (or too many at least) then you can use Stadia at it's highest specs. But even a 1080p60 stream will be plenty playable in most scenarios, like on a TV.pixelstuff - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
Well, except Youtube can pre buffer the clip to smooth out any bandwidth fluctuations. A real time game can't do that so if you are right near your maximum bandwidth the resolution might have to step down from what works on Youtube.eva02langley - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
Another step in the obsolescence of desktop GPUs.Zoolook - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
Not one mention of latency or input lag in the presentation.You need less 8ms response time between you and the server farm, to keep within one frame input latency on 60FPS, which means that even in the best case disregarding processing in your brain/controller/computer you will have 24ms between seeing a scene reacting on it and seeing a change, in reality it will probably be minimum two frames input lag and if you have a worse response time it will just get worse.
It's more of a threat for console gaming than desktop gaming.
jordanclock - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
I've been playing on Nvidia's GeForce Now service through my Shield TV and honestly, the latency isn't really noticeable after a bit unless you're really looking for it. Heck, I had more latency using Gamestream from my PC over WiFi!MadManMark - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
LOL, you missed the part of the presentation where they said every using of the service will have a dedicated GPU & CPU?In this model the GPUs (and games) aren't going away, just being bought by google and then rented to the gamer.
NeuralNexus - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
THE NUMBER ONE THING PEOPLE AREN'T THINKING ABOUT WITH STRATA IS THAT THEY WILL BE FREELY BE GIVING GOOGLE'S AI ALGORITHMS DATA ON HOW TO MAKE FUN GAMES FOR PEOPLE TO PLAY AND HOW HUMAN PLAY GAMES. THIS SERVICE WILL BE ANOTHER DATA HARVEST MASKED AS A SIMPLY GAMING SERVICE 🤦🏾♂️jordanclock - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
YES, FELLOW HUMAN, THIS WILL BE AN AMAZING OPPORTUNITY FOR US FLESH-BASED HUMANS TO OBTAIN DATA ON FUN.Yojimbo - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
For social engineering at Google's discretion. They are a private enterprise, they can do what they want.imaheadcase - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
So everyone with keyboard and mouse will still be better than anyone else. Yet ironically they want Doom to be the first game..lolSo much potential for problems.
webdoctors - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
"Uses Linux and Vulkan,"Probably because its one of the few games that runs on Linux and Vulkan.
I do play some Linux games (Dying Light), but I'm surprised they're not just running Windows boxes that hook up to Steam library. Otherwise you're limited to games that dont use DirectX....and ported to Linux.
abufrejoval - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
Visual latency may be an issue that Google seems confident to combat, given that they have invested heavily into cutting latency up to the point where evidently they give out connectivity kits to TelCos, because it's cheaper to give those away than compensate latency on their side (I remember a very clear quote from Eric Brewer in that sense).But with games drifting towards giant open world maps with massive amounts of users, model latency becomes a much bigger issue: What's the use of 144FPS if no two systems can agree on where players stand in the game space?
And while the amount of data that may need to be exchanged to update model data is much more difficult to control, the requirements for streaming the video are pretty flat and much better to control.
I still think Google needs to be broken up in many more letters than a simple Alphabet, but technologically this makes ever so much sense.
Mccaula718 - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
I played their beta for the new Assassin's Creed and am located in Morgantown WV. It was completely playable with compressed images happening occasionally. They gave everyone in the beta a free Uplay copy afterwards. Definitely looks better locally, but it requires a good rig. I can see this for people who can't afford an expensive computer or don't want to upgrade. If the local copy gets a 10/10 for visuals, I'd give the stream 8/10.Mccaula718 - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
That's on hardwired Comcast that speed tests around 175/15 Mbpspixelstuff - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
Google's name might be big enough to make this seem reliable, but I'm seeing more and more a need for a MoviesAnywhere type system of Game licensing. Pay for the perpetual license once and then play on any platform that the game has been ported to.I'm fine paying a monthly fee to use Google's hardware to play a game, but don't see re-paying for games I have already purchased, and I'm not sure I would want to pay $50+ for a game exclusively on Stadia with no offline capability.
If the service is like Netflix where $10-15/mo gives full access to all available games then it might be appealing. If the price is at all higher, or if you have to buy a game license and also maintain a monthly service fee, then I'm not sure it will attract me at all.
Yojimbo - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
Google has data centers all over the world and they control a good chunk of the internet backbone. That, along with their data center expertise, is what will make it reliable. Their name might be enough to convince big developers to develop for what is essentially another console.Microsoft also has the data centers and expertise to do such a thing, though I believe they don't have the backbone. They wouldn't even need to develop all the technology like Google did, because NVIDIA already has it. They could just partner with NVIDIA. Microsoft can also make it like developing for the XBox therefore making it easier for developers already targeting the XBox.
abufrejoval - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
If you read the small print, you may notice that you didn't actually purchase a game.You just purchased a temporary restricted right to use while you signed away the right to your private data for life, yours and your progeny, should you remember to have any.Purchase is iNdentured iServitude or even iSlavery these days.
nevcairiel - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
Is it just me, or does 2.7GHz seem pretty low for a gaming setup?I guess they have no choice really if they want density, since those high-core-count chips just don't clock that high, but I wonder if that won't result in a problem somewhere. Of course they could just force quality down to make it work, but they seem to want to promise more quality.
Yojimbo - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
Consoles get away with weak CPUs. This thing is basically a console hosted in the cloud with some controller software allowing multiple consoles to be lashed together.Jon Tseng - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
Datacenter CPUs typically clock lower than desktop/enthusiast. You want to run for max power efficiency not for max performance. Suspect the margins c1Ghz to get to peak clock will dump out a ton more heat than the first 2.7 Ghz..Zoolook - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
2.7 Ghz should be plenty for 60fps, esp. if it's Zen2mapesdhs - Thursday, March 21, 2019 - link
Doubly so for 4K, the bottleneck is more the GPU anyway.CoachAub - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
As a teacher, this could be a nightmare as my students will be able to game on a Chrome browser. Currently, they cannot install software due to firewalls or operating systems (ie:Chrome OS vs Win). I just hope our tech team can configure the firewall correctly or it will be a tough battle to keep them off the likes of Fortnite or Apex. Unfortunately, our IT still cannot block Youtube effectively. :DZoolook - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
You should probably look into upgrading your IT staff!PeachNCream - Friday, March 22, 2019 - link
Not using GoGuardian?Overall though, I agree with Zoolook. Your IT staff needs to be swapped out with a higher end model.
Gastec - Saturday, March 30, 2019 - link
Don't worry, Stadia can be easily blocked. Unless you are talking about students who bring their own private laptops with Internet connection. That should not be allowed. Then again I've seen videos of "students" hitting their teachers while their classmates where grabbing a video to post it on YouTube. In my times the worst we did was to play Starcraft and Carmageddon over the IT lab's local network.zodiacfml - Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - link
Super compelling. They only factor Google can get this wrong is pricing. They have to absorb the costs for a while to suck gamers into the system. I wonder there is no mention of streaming smartphone games, it could allow cheaper phones to enjoy quality found in more expensive phones aside from improving the overall streaming experiencemapesdhs - Thursday, March 28, 2019 - link
It's quite possible the base service will be free (check the leaks reported by TheQuartering), ie. the main revenue model will be adverts and microtransactions, plus initial game purchase costs. People might complain about this here, but the mass market has already made it very clear they're perfectly happy with this.azrael- - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
I just vomitted a little bit in my mouth. Why? Because I hate the very idea of game streaming with a passion.The very thought of being (even more) at the mercy of an ISP and "playing" a highly compressed video stream just sends shivers down my spine.
And then of course there's Google. They're probably frothing at the mouth in expectation of all the ads they can shove down our throat this way. They already have way too much information about us as it is.
mapesdhs - Thursday, March 28, 2019 - link
I can understand your trepidation, but if the service *works*, and people are content with the privacy tradeoff, then we should start discussing the consequences and implications. As it is, everyone is ranting about latency, privacy, ownership, or some combination. I'm more interested in what this will all mean for the industry as a whole and the future of gaming, on the assumption that Google will be able to make it functionally viable. I don't like the privacy and other issues either, but I'm an old git. The reality is that in years to come people wil grow up with this sort of system regarded as normal; heck, we already have this.People are choosing to believe Stadia will fail because they want that to be the case, which is unwise. We would do better to ponder the effects of it being a success. All the comments about latency are based on completely different and much older systems. People are also ignoring the +ves, eg. Stadia putting pressure on ISPs to improve their services - I keep seeing people in the US moaning about how bad their net links are, so time to pressure ISPs to do better. And if there's *demand* for a better service than that is a market opportunity for someone new to step in and do it better. I bet direct Google fibre into the home will become a lot more popular. In theory Google could end up replacing a lot of ISP business entirely. In the long term, who knows, Stadia may become the new internet, the old tech regarded as being as oudated as MySpace. I'm speculating here, but you get the idea. Everyone is focus on the negatives because if their own biases and desires, which is understandable but does ignore the genuine +ves, regardless of the nature of Google as a company (I certainly don't like all their globalist, leftist, SJW nonsense).
I see lots of people saying they will not use Stadia, but I bet in 5 years if it's become a roaring success a great many such people will by then have changed their mind.
Gastec - Saturday, March 30, 2019 - link
I don't want Stadia to fail. I might even be tempted to use it when I'm not near my desktop, say in vacations. Like I could be temped to use cocaine, LDS or any such poisons, to cloud my mind and make me...dream? BUT I'M NOT! Alcohol and Google ads are enough drugs to last me a lifetime! I don't want Stadia because it's just another piece of Games As Service crap! Just like EA and Activision, Stadia and Google are CANCER! (sorry for the cliche)piroroadkill - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
The only good thing about this is it will help push Vulkan, and to a lesser extent Linux.Threska - Thursday, April 4, 2019 - link
https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/google-sta..."Could Google’s Stadia bring back multi-GPU gaming?
UL Benchmarks (formerly Futuremark) suggested in a recent release that multiple GPUs could be a way to provide enough power for such effects. It even released a demonstration video showcasing how Google’s Stadia could leverage multiple graphics cards as and when required, to prevent too broad a framerate variation despite the complexity of a scene increasing."
fellix - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
The CPU is most likely a low-power derivative of Skylake-X. The 9.5MB combined L2 and L3 cache size is a good clue. The Skylake-X architecture uses non-inclusive caches, so a quad-core SKU will feature 1.375MB L3 + 1MB L2 multiplied by 4 that gives exactly a total of 9.5MB, as stated in the presentation.mapesdhs - Thursday, March 21, 2019 - link
Was there some part of AMD you didn't understand? :D Intel was not one of the listed partners. The compute node is far more likely to be a Zen2 + Vega or Navi (with HBM2) APU hybrid. Quite clever really.mapesdhs - Thursday, March 28, 2019 - link
Caveat to this, after finding more info. Looks like Google is using an Intel CPU just now for testing, but planning to move to Zen2 later, which makes sense.MariaDMcDougall - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
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sweetca - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
Umm, it's Google, "We tried not to be evil."They start and abandon so many of their high-falutin ideas (The Information Superhighway beamed to Africans with big Balloons, Fiber on every street corner).
Many of these exist in an overlapping, feature-creep hell (Voice, Allo, Hangouts, Fi, Groups, Wave, Gchat, G+, Spaces, messenger, duo), while others languish in the purgatory of eternal Beta, changing GUIs and features, just in time to destroy any sense of interface consistentcy and familiarity (Gmail).
Full Disclosure: I'm slowly transitioning to what would have likely been Churchill's choice for privacy, Apple.
nicolaim - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
Typo: "There are 7500+ edge nodes allows for [...]"Dug - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
We still have issues streaming Youtube in our area. Home, work, it doesn't matter. All other sites and streaming services are fine. Netflix had problems too, until they paid up to last mile vendors.So the issue will be the ISP in a majority of cases.
I'm all for it, but with huge amounts of bandwidth needed and the never ending data caps imposed, I don't see a bright future for this.
Midwayman - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
Your ISP will be happy to sell you an 'internet gaming' package with stadia whitelisted for just $29.99 a month on top of your internet package and Stadia's charges.mapesdhs - Thursday, March 28, 2019 - link
According to TheQuartering it's quite likely the base Stadia service will be free. The revenue model being based more on ads and microtransactions, plus initial game purchases.stinkyj - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
I was on the PC beta with Assassins Creed Odyssey. You couldn't go beyond 1080p, sometimes choppy. I have serious doubts about 4k for any action game. i was on hardwired connection 400Mbs down and 2080ti. i can run 4k without issue.Threska - Thursday, April 4, 2019 - link
Interesting you mentioned that game. With this service gamers who own an AND Phenom could play that game, were locally they couldn't because the DRM requires a specific SSE version.lmcd - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
Really was hoping Microsoft and Sony would pick up GPU Virtualization for their consoles (to power a second stream to a second, or more, stream). Looks like this is where they're going instead.What a waste. Adding GPU virtualization and the ensuing things you can do with it would give consoles a boost that consumer GPUs will not get any time soon without increasing cost of the console substantially (yes, software development costs, but not hardware per unit costs).
0ldman79 - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
I've been playing with Nvidia DSR quite a bit.Honestly the image quality difference is mostly in the rendering, not the display.
Render at 4K and display that on a 1080P monitor and it is still gorgeous.
Not sure 4K or 8K actual display is needed and by the time you compress for streaming that may actually have worse image quality than 1080P.
I mean right now my 970 can encode 4K at like 200FPS for streaming but big action scenes, explosions, etc, the bitrate doesn't spike quickly enough and details are lost. Given a second the bitrate increases but by then the action is over. I typically stream at 720p or 1080p while rendering at 1440. The image quality is excellent that way, same as with DSR.
mapesdhs - Thursday, March 28, 2019 - link
Hence the appeal of dual 4K streams so viewers are not hindered by a host also having to render the game for the player.TallestJon96 - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
Not mentioned anywhere is pricing. I don't think many people will be willing to pay a full $60 for game streaming. A subscription price for unlimited games, or free games with micro transaction are probably the only ways to go.Very skeptical in generally. Youtube already looks like shite most of the time.
mapesdhs - Thursday, March 28, 2019 - link
Check TheQuartering for relevant info, it's possible Stadia's main service access wil be free, revenue coming from ads and microtransactions.Tams80 - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
You can't beat physics in regards to the problem of latency in input controls. Not all games require fantastically low latency though, so there should be a decent number of games to play acceptably. Many of those games that won't fit don't rely on an internet connection anyway.One big problem I see is Internet access and data limits. This will probably use a lot of data, especially since people will be using it run games they can't run on their hardware. In Japan, I'm fine (although I'd probably get an angry letter about using too much data), but in my home country of the UK, most households don't even have the necessary bandwidth, let alone adequate usage limits.
Tams80 - Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - link
Real-time 'competitive' (as in serious) competition is not going to be moving to this mind. When every ms counts, this just won't cut it.mapesdhs - Thursday, March 21, 2019 - link
Sounds a bit odd, decently fast connections have been available for ages in the UK.Holliday75 - Friday, March 22, 2019 - link
ISP's will always sell you on the bandwidth. I've had a 100mbps connection in the states for about 10 years up until the last 2 years and now I have 500mbps. Bandwidth available isn't always a good indicator of latency and stability. Google's service requires not only a decent amount of bandwidth to support it, but will require a very low latency and stable connection to provide a good user experience. A very stable and low latency connection is more important here and the speed at which you can download a file.Holliday75 - Friday, March 22, 2019 - link
*Then. I wish I could edit my damn typos.mapesdhs - Thursday, March 28, 2019 - link
So many people talk about this, but the fact is Google is the one company with the network infrastructure to make this viable. Just a pity it's a company like Google that's doing it, given their leftist/SJW/globalist leanings.Gastec - Saturday, March 30, 2019 - link
What leftist leaning? They are capitalists to the bone! MOAR MONEY!Gastec - Saturday, March 30, 2019 - link
Pretty sure you'll get moar bandwidth with the Brexit. Or more fish loaded with mercury :)GlossGhost - Friday, March 22, 2019 - link
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I'll wait and see if it actually works. Knowing a few things about the internet and how normal video streaming works (ie- pre-roll buffering, which would totally kill game streaming) I'm a bit skeptical.mapesdhs - Thursday, March 28, 2019 - link
Your first sentence is about the most sensible comment in this entire thread. Far too many are just writing Stadia off without any rationale, usually because they want it to fail and therefore they choose to believe it will fail. Thus, thumbs up for the more balanced consideration.Stadia may indeed not work out, but I wish we were all talking a lot more about its implications if Google can get it working as advertised, because if they can it could be the most disruptive change in multiple industries in a long time. Who's going to remember arguments about latency if gaming PCs as a thing are effectively gone in 10 years?
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Gastec - Saturday, March 30, 2019 - link
Now Nvidia will have another excuse to increase the price of their next generation of graphics cards: low demand of discrete cards due to online streaming of games.devianstudio - Tuesday, August 6, 2019 - link
Well Microsoft, Steam/Ubisoft/Epic/Origin already have your data, as well as any government that also governs its national IP network (used to be called Internet), so you're not giving up much.But I agree that it's another reason to break it up into many baby Googles, one for every couple of million inhabitants or so.
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