🏀 it's gonn'a be all or nothing , and i don't think Bill would have commited everything , unless he'd been 100% sure , right from the beginning . i just wonder how far towards hedt will this thing go, with sd 845, 855 and so on.
Hijacking this comment to say, please make a(n affordable) phone out of this! With an optional Lapdock-esque accessory. I miss the era of nice, affordable Windows phones, and I really want something with more capabilities than an iPhone.
Also, it would finally be exciting to see better ARM hardware and whatnot if you can use it on a real OS with real games and programs, where you can really see how well it's being utilized, really push it, etc.!
HEDT?! Unless a high clocked (at least 3.3 Ghz base all-core clock), high TDP (30 - 45 W), 6-wide minimum (or lower clock but even wider) ARM CPU/SoC is made, ARM will never enter HEDT space. Such a CPU *has* been developed, and is to be released in mid-late 2018, but not for the HEDT market. I am referring to Nvidia's Xavier, which is a custom 8-core ARM SoC with an as of yet announced clock and each core is, insanely and incredulously, 10-wide. That's no typo. Xavier is intended solely for self-driving cars, unfortunately. It will also have a 512-core Volta GPU and a mere 30W base TDP.
Good to hear it at least performs well at everyday type stuff. I guess this demo unit hadn't been switched to pro and was running S since it required cpu-z from the store :/
I do hope you all will get a one of these Windows ARM devices to test/review.
That comment from Qualcomm about the gpu being native is a bit odd... I would think drivers would have to be compiled for ARM to even install... i.e. I don't think the WoW translation layer does anything for drivers, but I could be mistaken. Maybe they're just clarifying for anyone wondering.
They will need (and have) native GPU drivers. What I think they meant is that the drivers compile "native code for the Adreno", so there is no further overhead.
The article says 'apps will work'- but I do not want any app- anything from Microsoft store- to run on my PC- I want programs downloaded from their makers websites, and games directly from GOG or other shop.. Can this device to that?
"Another thing that we talked about is 32- and 64-bit apps. I wanted to clear up a few points, because I've heard different things from different OEMs. Initially, there were reports that Windows on ARM wouldn't run 64-bit Win32 apps, but when I spoke with Dell regarding why it wasn't doing anything with ARM, I was told that 32-bit apps are the problem."
This could mean that 32 bit and 64 bit apps are problem because 64 bit apps are not supported.
RISC emulation of CISC architecture will be always going to behind current CISC architecture. Microsoft goal with Windows for ARM ( like Windows RT ) is not to support Win32 applications but attempt to lure users off the Win32 mode application completely and only have then on store application.
Note all applications must come from Store on this device. I would try the reverse, get application from store and transfer it to device run real x86 based CPU.
I think you're confusing Windows 10 ARM with Windows 10 S. The former is merely another cpu architecture supported by the OS. S is the locked down "RT" style OS, where only store apps are allowed. Both Intel and ARM versions of S available, and yes, this device does come with S, but can be switched to pro with 180 days of activation. Then apps can come from anywhere.
Looks like the Neowin article was wrong. X86-64 apps are not supported. Was just watching the Channel 9 Windows Community Standup on these devices and Microsoft themselves said that they'd rather you compile for ARM64 in the future, rather than them attempt to emulate x86-64 apps as well as 32 bit apps.
Is this a major problem though? If these devices make any serious inroad on the market, wouldn't developers provide options for both x86-64 and ARM64 versions of their app? Yes. I know it's more work, but this should happen.
Okay that's really lame. We need full x86 support, and obviously a LOT of software and games now are 64-bit. I don't care what Microsoft wants, the reality is most software we buy and use is NOT from the Windows store-which is one of the things that makes Windows awesome over iOS and Android.
Would be nice, but if it was easy we'd all be on Itanium and not having to deal with Spectre and Meltdown. Legacy really is a bitch. Progress too in a "I got to rebuy everything" way, just a lot slower.
Which is aaaaawesome! I can't wait to see how well they work. And had totally forgotten that the GPU portion of the game will run the same as if it were the same GPU on an x86 CPU...that part doesn't actually matter/won't be emulated.
This is what the Surface 1 and 2 SHOULD have been...just needed that x86 compatibility...
I find the comment about the Win scheduler very interesting. MS may use this opportunity to work out the quirks of scheduling for heterogenous cores, which could allow all kinds of crazyness from Intel (not really known for crazy..) and AMD (who just abandoned their small cores). Think e.g. if a machine with 2 - 4 fat "Core" cores for regular work and a bunch of the (also just abandoned) Knights-something cores for more efficiency with strongly vectorized code and/or many threads.
Yeah, it seems like this could have implications for x86 CPUs aimed at running real Windows. Why NOT throw in a smaller core or 4 along with your 2-8+ big x86 cores, if Windows 10 is smart enough to use them in a sensible manner.
Ill reserve judgment for the tech and its x86 translation until I can at least see some performance metrics for it. As for how it will do in the market....I'm not sure I see where this fits in. There are already regular ultrabooks and the like that get monstrous battery life with much better procs running native x86.
Tablets and smaller 2-in-1s are my guess. Larger 2-in-1s and laptops...I don't see the point.
Intel has basically said they've abandoned phone and tablet chips. So the newer Atom chips are running up around 5-9 watts of power. Basically they are cheaper Y series chips in terms of power use.
Cherry Trail was the last low power chip (2.5w and under) and Intel has basically said they aren't producing new stuff in that space.
Not sure what the 835 is for TDP/SDP.
Makes me sad as I really like my Asus T100h and I liked my plain Asus T100 before that. Silent running, long battery life (I can get 10-12hrs of regular, constant, use out of it before it wants to hibernate at 7% battery life remaining. Closer to 14hrs if I am watching videos off local storage), responsive. I just wish it had 802.11ac wifi. About the only real negative.
And, you know, in a year or two, a better, faster alternative in the 10" category. It means I'll probably have to move to a 12" Y series 2-in-1 eventually. Maybe AMD will come out with something in the space?
I echo your sentiments, as a fellow advocate of Atom cheap-and-light machines. I get 9 hours on mine but it charges off USB so I can get 18 hours total runtime with an external battery pack.
I think the Windows market has gotten used to sub-$500 Atom machines or full Core machines near $1000. These Snapdragon ARM machines are still cheaper than their smartphone equivalents but they're too expensive in the Windows space.
That's the thing. This laptop is a 13" and the upgraded model($800) with 8GB ram etc is comparable to the Dell XPS 13 which has a similar price, has an actual x86 proc, runs 64bit applications and can do it all natively. Battery life is damn good too. At the price point of the models being released like you I don't see the point.
IF the translation is as good as they say, then I wouldn't mind seeing a hybrid design. x86 proc with a companion 835 in a similar fashion to how DGPU/IGPU works when running on battery. This would allow you to greatly extend battery and still have access to everything.
Of course for that I would like to see metrics running the same scenario to see if such a thing would be worth making.
I find the tech interesting but I don't see the market in the price point its releasing at. Smaller 2 n 1s would be nice and tablets cool but at that price, Ill just get a surface 4 at a discount.
The announced price was 600$ for the 4GB DRAM version so cheaper than others but way too high for a low end PC.
If they had a similar machine with SD670 and no LTE at 300$, that would be nice but we won't see that unless Qualcomm gets new management- they are fixated on LTE and getting payed for patents no matter how much that strategy hurts their chip business.
where did you get the PCIe SSD info? It's not even SATA, it a sort for emmc. Also 4GB RAM is pretty low these days so the 800$ variant is probably the only decent one....
Your license to operate a wallet has been suspended, please cease and desist any contact with any form of currency. You credibility rating has also been downgraded to a negative 400, please abstain from expressing any and all opinions for the next 45years.
You get a low perf SoC ,little memory, little storage. A 1080p display is some 10$ more than 768p display so maybe some 40$. A FP sensors is less than 2$ and depending on what they use, could be quite a lot less. LTE is a drawback as it increases costs while very few need or can afford it. On top of it, folks that can afford LTE, can also afford a much better machine. This is garbage that should compete with Atom based machines but can't - it's Qualcomm's fault as they charge a high end premium for a SoC that is low end in PC and they insist on LTE. There will be people stupid enough to buy it ,there always are but not that many. Microsoft needs to do a lot more if it wants its ARM efforts to survive.
Most of those specs are already on much cheaper Cherry Trail-based Windows tablets. Qualcomm and associated OEMs must be nuts to try to charge >$500 when you can get Atom tablets for half the price. I don't think these new ARM machines run PCIE SSDs either, they only have EMMC.
It's UFS 2.0, not eMMC, this should perform a lot better than Atom devices from that alone (it was on a slide during the Tech Summit, the Anandtech live blog coverage has it).
I think going for the laptop and larger 2-in-1 form factor is a mistake. 8-10" devices is where it would blow Atom out of the water and be worth the premium.
"PCIe based SSD for storage if I remember correctly." - And the author did NOTremember correctly. Unless of course Asus CEO, Jerry Shen, was mistaken last month:
My mistake then. UFS should be a significant speedup over the pokey EMMC used on Atom tablets. I should know, I've used Bay Trail and Cherry Trail tablets and I find the slow storage to be the biggest performance issue.
A 10" Snapdragon tablet running full Windows with x86 translation could very well be my next ultralight machine, if the price could go below $500. I'd buy it in a heartbeat at $300. Cherry Trail is still being used in this space because Intel and AMD have nothing comparable re. TDP and SDP. Snapdragons have much lower idle power and more efficient GPU blocks so a Windows tablet with 12 hour battery life should be doable.
Agreed, for me a 8" tablet to replace my aging Dell Venue 8 Pro (Bay Trail) would instantly get my money at $500 if done right, maybe even higher as it would also replace my nearly 11-year old Latitude D630 laptop that's permanently docked.
Read the article. It's PCIe. Slow down. Read more carefully. You'll find the quote....I hope.
Cherry Trail? Oh, gosh. Please never recommend a laptop to your close friends. They'll hate you sooner or later. And a tablet? What tablet has a proper keyboard like that? With backlighting?
Come on. Give evidence. Backup your claims. We're not politicians.
When Chinese get to it massive you will be able to get ARM QC & other ones based for a same price as current Atom based ones as guess what SoC price difference is small.
Silly jjj. Keep your fantasies to yourself; they're ferment better there. ;)
If you feel so confident, please share your $600 MSRP laptop recommendations. Let's pick them apart! :D
Not low-perf enough for people to care. Memory, sure. Storage: who do you think buys $600 laptops? Yeah, $10 that doesn't get spent. You better go call Acer: you're blowing their mind right now. A FP sensor is only $2? Damn, what a missed opportunity!
LTE: pennies for Qualcomm, kiddo. Do you understand what article you're commenting on?
Very few need it: yeah, tell that to Android OEMs and Apple. Nobody needs LTE! /s
Afford LTE: yeah, I'm ready for the 20-hour laptops with LTE. Please, educate us all. ;D
It won't compete with Atom and you know it. It's all right to admit it here in the comments; nobody knows who you are. :D
"Insist on LTE": how dare they allow more mobility. A crime!
People stupid enough to buy it = "People use computers different than me. And that's not fair. Let me belittle their intelligence because I use computers in the right way."
Man, did school get cancelled? How do such inane people get on Anandtech's comments? You'd think the quality of Anandtech would rub off on its commenters, but you're a shining example of that failure. Welp. At least we can see the rest of your...comment history.
Yes but from greedy ASUS & look alikes. The S835 SoC costs about the same as newer Atom one, while performance & power consumption of S835 is still considerably better. The rest components depending on used one's respectively cost the same. S845 won't be much more pricier & it's development ready. Qualcomm could turn the page upside down making the real SoC for portables & ultralight as they have their wider OoO for now server only CPU core's & Adrenos are scalable enough. But we both know that this ain't happened at least not anytime soon. Now just imagine SoC containing 6 next gen OoO QC now server based core's coupled with two more A55's on DinamIQ cluster backed up with Adreno graphics with 512 ALU's (twice as much as current flagship one's) on the newer 7nm FinFET. DTP would stay in ultra portables range 5~6W with much better efficiency in idle and low light usage conditions (thanks to A55's), more general purpose CPU power thanks to 6 bigger OoO core's & significant enough GPU. Not only it would put at risk Intel Y series but it would also Hit AMD and Nv regarding GPU power at that DTP. I am confident that neither of them would have answer to that. Still SoC like that would probably be chipper for one third from Intel Y series based on up to date Intel pricing.
You must be ZolaIII from XDA. A fellow Mi Max owner :)
Apollo Lake doesn't go below 6W TDP whereas Cherry Trail could hit 2W. Maybe Intel killed Willow Trail because it couldn't get competitive 3G and LTE onboard. I'm fine with the SD835 if these machines are to be released right now. A Q2 or Q3 release should use the SD845 instead. Hopefully cheap and cheery Chinese OEMs will start cranking out $300 Windows ARM tablets soon.
I'm concerned about long term driver support. We recently had one of the generations of atom CPUs that used a non-Intel GPU fall out of new major Win10 updates (and onto a long term bug-fix only branch originally intended just for enterprise use) because it needed a new driver that was never made. We all know a major part of the Android update farce is that SoC makers only provide a year or two of driver updates before abandoning them for newer models. With the 5+ year lifespan of typical Windows laptops that's a disaster waiting to happen even assuming it doesn't end up abandoned by MS like Win8RT was.
Qualcomm's "abandonment" routine on Android has no comparisons to the ImgTech disaster referred to in Dan's comment.
Also, Windows 10's driver model is likely to stay stable for most, if not all, of the lifespan of the laptop anyway. Android by comparison is a far more varying target.
>Qualcomm's "abandonment" routine on Android has no comparisons to the ImgTech disaster referred to in Dan's comment.
Is it not the same issue? Cheap hardware losing software support after a few months?
>Also, Windows 10's driver model is likely to stay stable for most, if not all, of the lifespan of the laptop anyway. Android by comparison is a far more varying target.
I don't see Android's driver model changing so significantly to deny updates. I think you're ignoring the business side of this: cost/benefit analysis. Qualcomm made the cheaper choice.
On Android, Qualcomm only writes drivers for board support packages. Manufacturers then take those drivers, integrate them with their own software and Android base to create an Android release. Most of the time, manufacturers don't bother with updating drivers for older phones and tablets.
For Windows, Qualcomm will have to write drivers for every one of their chips on these upcoming ARM machines and support them for much longer than on Android. That's a good thing and hopefully it transfers over to Android as well.
Well honey CAF suport is open, OEM's are the usual shits, there are QC SoC's with lasting support for longer than 5 years & rare examples for cheap smartphones with also such long suport as Xiaomi Redmi S1 with S400.
Interesting. I'm still rocking my 3 year old UX305, the Novago could be an interesting laptop update. If the performance is similar and I gain 20h of battery life... might be worth considering.
Which is why it's dumb for Qualcomm and OEMs to use the SD835 in machines that will debut in Q2-Q3, when SD845-based phones would have been out for a quarter or longer. If these ARM Windows machines are to last 5 years like typical laptops, they should have the latest chips on release, unless they're intended to be throwaway devices like cheap Atom junk.
Microsoft should really make a Surface out of a Snapdragon PC and aim it at the low end like the Surface 3 Atom. $400 for SD845, 10" hi-DPI screen, pen support and a 15-hour battery and I'm in heaven.
What is the point of this laptop? Speed? Price? Productivity? Battery life? Lightness? "Always Connected"ness? (Which in a nutshell means you cannot run your programs unless you are connected to the internet, hence actually "Always Conned"ness).
Actually the fact of the matter is that the information technology and therefore computers are at a turning point in history of information technology and therefore computers. For the first time in the history of computers the stupidity and gullibility of the users is driving the industry and sciences behind it. Where the intelligence of human beings once promised progress it is now the stupidity of the users that the computing "industry" is placing all its bets on.
You can run programs without being connected to LTE. The only purpose is to have connectivity when you're not on WiFi or ethernet. It's not like programs will cease to run just because you aren't connected. Try running a desktop without internet and that's how your applications will behave. The fact of the matter is your device would be useless without internet, end of story.
It's allowing a very low power standby state that keeps the LTE and WiFi radios on with some minimal processing, like what smartphones do. Your Windows connected PC can be asleep yet still receive emails, notifications, process torrents etc. whereas your average desktop is a mute brick once it enters sleep.
Android and iOS have done this for years but it's only recently that Windows machines gained this capability. These ARM machines have the added advantage of running an LTE connection even when asleep. I think Microsoft is testing the waters for a Surface Phone, a device that would be the ultimate convergence between a smartphone and a PC.
That "sleep" of Android is just a fancy screensaver man. Did you really think that the tablet is actually "sleeping"? Any laptop can do that, very easily.
Most laptops can't idle at <1W and still process emails, instant messages, handle downloads etc. over mobile data. Smartphones can. Maybe you're just trolling...
ARM based chips don't use much more than 1 W when they are not "sleeping" and running many programs. So, it is supposedly the power consumption that makes this laptop a wonderful thing. Intel is advertising "Always Connected" with its products that use much more powerful CPUs that have higer TDPs. So, your case about <1W is moot. You do not seem to understand the difference between "sleeping" and a screen saver that saves some power mostly in the display department.
Most new Intel Core and Atom chips have a very low power mode just above idle that allows for Connected Standby on Windows - WiFi is always on and the CPU can respond to network events but everything else is turned off. Intel's Always Connected branding extends this concept to LTE connectivity by using Intel XMM modems. It remains to be seen how much power is consumed by Intel chips in their connected states.
Of course, Snapdragon platforms have been able to do this for years with low power states and always-on networking. Android sleep isn't a screensaver, modern mobiles OSes like Android and iOS are engineered from the ground up to run minimal cores at low speeds yet still remain responsive to network events. You're correct in pointing out that ARM chips can happily work with 1 W only and that means long battery life in these ARM PCs.
Obviously I'm super interested about how this will work. Obviously the Windows RT devices SHOULD have had x86 support, AND they really ought to offer a Windows 10 upgrade for like the Surface 1 and 2, with this x86 support, even if it would probably run slow...
Anyway very interesting, and I hadn't thought of the fact that really the GPU ought to run just normal Windows code with the right drivers, that the CPU architecture really shouldn't matter. Very interesting to see if it could run real Windows games of some sort that are x86...
Not likely, the Tegra SoCs on the Surface RT machines were a nightmare of proprietary drivers and proprietary boot processes. They're also much slower than today's flagship ARM SoCs. There's been a lot of progress done in the past few years on standardising bus connectivity on ARM platforms.
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costeakai - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
🏀 it's gonn'a be all or nothing , and i don't think Bill would have commited everything , unless he'd been 100% sure , right from the beginning . i just wonder how far towards hedt will this thing go, with sd 845, 855 and so on.Old_Fogie_Late_Bloomer - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
Hijacking this comment to say, please make a(n affordable) phone out of this! With an optional Lapdock-esque accessory. I miss the era of nice, affordable Windows phones, and I really want something with more capabilities than an iPhone.Hurr Durr - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
Agreed. My 730 is almost four years old and I `m not going to Android, oh no.Wolfpup - Thursday, January 18, 2018 - link
Yeah, I want Windows on a phone back...and if it's REAL Windows on a phone, with x86 compatibility, YES PLEASE.I like iOS pretty well, but I don't want Android, and the dream has always been real Windows, real x86 (compatibility) on a phone...
Wolfpup - Thursday, January 18, 2018 - link
Also, it would finally be exciting to see better ARM hardware and whatnot if you can use it on a real OS with real games and programs, where you can really see how well it's being utilized, really push it, etc.!Santoval - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
HEDT?! Unless a high clocked (at least 3.3 Ghz base all-core clock), high TDP (30 - 45 W), 6-wide minimum (or lower clock but even wider) ARM CPU/SoC is made, ARM will never enter HEDT space. Such a CPU *has* been developed, and is to be released in mid-late 2018, but not for the HEDT market.I am referring to Nvidia's Xavier, which is a custom 8-core ARM SoC with an as of yet announced clock and each core is, insanely and incredulously, 10-wide. That's no typo. Xavier is intended solely for self-driving cars, unfortunately. It will also have a 512-core Volta GPU and a mere 30W base TDP.
Santoval - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
"with an as of yet *un*announced clock"domboy - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
Good to hear it at least performs well at everyday type stuff. I guess this demo unit hadn't been switched to pro and was running S since it required cpu-z from the store :/I do hope you all will get a one of these Windows ARM devices to test/review.
That comment from Qualcomm about the gpu being native is a bit odd... I would think drivers would have to be compiled for ARM to even install... i.e. I don't think the WoW translation layer does anything for drivers, but I could be mistaken. Maybe they're just clarifying for anyone wondering.
MrSpadge - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
They will need (and have) native GPU drivers. What I think they meant is that the drivers compile "native code for the Adreno", so there is no further overhead.neblogai - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
The article says 'apps will work'- but I do not want any app- anything from Microsoft store- to run on my PC- I want programs downloaded from their makers websites, and games directly from GOG or other shop.. Can this device to that?euskalzabe - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
It's already been established by Microsoft that it can.neblogai - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
Has it been tested/proven by independent party?digiguy - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
you seem a bit paranoid, they wouldn't claimed that if they hadn't tested properly. Having said that, only 32 bit software will run, not 64bit....ezraward - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
This was news to me, but apparently 64 bit apps are supported.https://www.neowin.net/news/qualcomm-win32-apps-wo...
HStewart - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
"Another thing that we talked about is 32- and 64-bit apps. I wanted to clear up a few points, because I've heard different things from different OEMs. Initially, there were reports that Windows on ARM wouldn't run 64-bit Win32 apps, but when I spoke with Dell regarding why it wasn't doing anything with ARM, I was told that 32-bit apps are the problem."This could mean that 32 bit and 64 bit apps are problem because 64 bit apps are not supported.
RISC emulation of CISC architecture will be always going to behind current CISC architecture. Microsoft goal with Windows for ARM ( like Windows RT ) is not to support Win32 applications but attempt to lure users off the Win32 mode application completely and only have then on store application.
Note all applications must come from Store on this device. I would try the reverse, get application from store and transfer it to device run real x86 based CPU.
domboy - Thursday, January 18, 2018 - link
I think you're confusing Windows 10 ARM with Windows 10 S. The former is merely another cpu architecture supported by the OS. S is the locked down "RT" style OS, where only store apps are allowed. Both Intel and ARM versions of S available, and yes, this device does come with S, but can be switched to pro with 180 days of activation. Then apps can come from anywhere.ezraward - Thursday, January 18, 2018 - link
Looks like the Neowin article was wrong. X86-64 apps are not supported. Was just watching the Channel 9 Windows Community Standup on these devices and Microsoft themselves said that they'd rather you compile for ARM64 in the future, rather than them attempt to emulate x86-64 apps as well as 32 bit apps.niva - Thursday, January 18, 2018 - link
Is this a major problem though? If these devices make any serious inroad on the market, wouldn't developers provide options for both x86-64 and ARM64 versions of their app? Yes. I know it's more work, but this should happen.Wolfpup - Thursday, January 18, 2018 - link
Okay that's really lame. We need full x86 support, and obviously a LOT of software and games now are 64-bit. I don't care what Microsoft wants, the reality is most software we buy and use is NOT from the Windows store-which is one of the things that makes Windows awesome over iOS and Android.Threska - Saturday, January 20, 2018 - link
Would be nice, but if it was easy we'd all be on Itanium and not having to deal with Spectre and Meltdown. Legacy really is a bitch. Progress too in a "I got to rebuy everything" way, just a lot slower.ezraward - Thursday, January 18, 2018 - link
Nevermind, Neowin article was wrong. See my comment below.Wolfpup - Thursday, January 18, 2018 - link
Which is aaaaawesome! I can't wait to see how well they work. And had totally forgotten that the GPU portion of the game will run the same as if it were the same GPU on an x86 CPU...that part doesn't actually matter/won't be emulated.This is what the Surface 1 and 2 SHOULD have been...just needed that x86 compatibility...
MrSpadge - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
I find the comment about the Win scheduler very interesting. MS may use this opportunity to work out the quirks of scheduling for heterogenous cores, which could allow all kinds of crazyness from Intel (not really known for crazy..) and AMD (who just abandoned their small cores). Think e.g. if a machine with 2 - 4 fat "Core" cores for regular work and a bunch of the (also just abandoned) Knights-something cores for more efficiency with strongly vectorized code and/or many threads.Wolfpup - Thursday, January 18, 2018 - link
Yeah, it seems like this could have implications for x86 CPUs aimed at running real Windows. Why NOT throw in a smaller core or 4 along with your 2-8+ big x86 cores, if Windows 10 is smart enough to use them in a sensible manner.Manch - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
Ill reserve judgment for the tech and its x86 translation until I can at least see some performance metrics for it. As for how it will do in the market....I'm not sure I see where this fits in. There are already regular ultrabooks and the like that get monstrous battery life with much better procs running native x86.azazel1024 - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
Tablets and smaller 2-in-1s are my guess. Larger 2-in-1s and laptops...I don't see the point.Intel has basically said they've abandoned phone and tablet chips. So the newer Atom chips are running up around 5-9 watts of power. Basically they are cheaper Y series chips in terms of power use.
Cherry Trail was the last low power chip (2.5w and under) and Intel has basically said they aren't producing new stuff in that space.
Not sure what the 835 is for TDP/SDP.
Makes me sad as I really like my Asus T100h and I liked my plain Asus T100 before that. Silent running, long battery life (I can get 10-12hrs of regular, constant, use out of it before it wants to hibernate at 7% battery life remaining. Closer to 14hrs if I am watching videos off local storage), responsive. I just wish it had 802.11ac wifi. About the only real negative.
And, you know, in a year or two, a better, faster alternative in the 10" category. It means I'll probably have to move to a 12" Y series 2-in-1 eventually. Maybe AMD will come out with something in the space?
serendip - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
I echo your sentiments, as a fellow advocate of Atom cheap-and-light machines. I get 9 hours on mine but it charges off USB so I can get 18 hours total runtime with an external battery pack.I think the Windows market has gotten used to sub-$500 Atom machines or full Core machines near $1000. These Snapdragon ARM machines are still cheaper than their smartphone equivalents but they're too expensive in the Windows space.
Manch - Friday, January 19, 2018 - link
That's the thing. This laptop is a 13" and the upgraded model($800) with 8GB ram etc is comparable to the Dell XPS 13 which has a similar price, has an actual x86 proc, runs 64bit applications and can do it all natively. Battery life is damn good too. At the price point of the models being released like you I don't see the point.IF the translation is as good as they say, then I wouldn't mind seeing a hybrid design. x86 proc with a companion 835 in a similar fashion to how DGPU/IGPU works when running on battery. This would allow you to greatly extend battery and still have access to everything.
Of course for that I would like to see metrics running the same scenario to see if such a thing would be worth making.
I find the tech interesting but I don't see the market in the price point its releasing at. Smaller 2 n 1s would be nice and tablets cool but at that price, Ill just get a surface 4 at a discount.
leo_sk - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
Whats exactly is the role of windows store? Is it impossible to sideload apps?domboy - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
If you switch it from Windows 10 S to Pro (for free) within 180 days you won't even need the store if you don't want it.MrSpadge - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
To make app updates easier and compile natively for ARM (or whatever your architecture).jjj - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
The announced price was 600$ for the 4GB DRAM version so cheaper than others but way too high for a low end PC.If they had a similar machine with SD670 and no LTE at 300$, that would be nice but we won't see that unless Qualcomm gets new management- they are fixated on LTE and getting payed for patents no matter how much that strategy hurts their chip business.
ikjadoon - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
You get a lot for the price, IMO. Have you seen the trash in the $600 price range? They’re legitimate ass.Look at ALL this for $599:
1. Fanless (0 dB)
2. 2-in-1 with touchscreen
3. 1080p LED IPS displays with 100% sRGB
4. Thin and light (3.1lb)
5. Backlit keyboard, full-sized
6. 22 f***ing hours of battery life
7. PCIe SSD (spinning disks, be gone!)
8. Decent build quality
9. Built-in Gigabit LTE
10. 1.4mm of travel (i.e., not a junk keyboard)
11. Windows 10 Pro (free upgrade)
12. Instant-on
13. Very cool / low heat (3.5W SoC)
14. Fingerprint reader via Windows Hello
15. 2x2 802.11AC MU-MIMO
16. LPDDR4
17. Glass Precision Touchpad (no closed, OEM-only drivers for gestures!)
digiguy - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
where did you get the PCIe SSD info? It's not even SATA, it a sort for emmc. Also 4GB RAM is pretty low these days so the 800$ variant is probably the only decent one....ikjadoon - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
Everyone point and laugh now. :DHint: it's in the article you're commenting on. ;)
jjj - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
Your license to operate a wallet has been suspended, please cease and desist any contact with any form of currency.You credibility rating has also been downgraded to a negative 400, please abstain from expressing any and all opinions for the next 45years.
You get a low perf SoC ,little memory, little storage. A 1080p display is some 10$ more than 768p display so maybe some 40$. A FP sensors is less than 2$ and depending on what they use, could be quite a lot less.
LTE is a drawback as it increases costs while very few need or can afford it. On top of it, folks that can afford LTE, can also afford a much better machine.
This is garbage that should compete with Atom based machines but can't - it's Qualcomm's fault as they charge a high end premium for a SoC that is low end in PC and they insist on LTE.
There will be people stupid enough to buy it ,there always are but not that many. Microsoft needs to do a lot more if it wants its ARM efforts to survive.
serendip - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
Most of those specs are already on much cheaper Cherry Trail-based Windows tablets. Qualcomm and associated OEMs must be nuts to try to charge >$500 when you can get Atom tablets for half the price. I don't think these new ARM machines run PCIE SSDs either, they only have EMMC.lazybum131 - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
It's UFS 2.0, not eMMC, this should perform a lot better than Atom devices from that alone (it was on a slide during the Tech Summit, the Anandtech live blog coverage has it).I think going for the laptop and larger 2-in-1 form factor is a mistake. 8-10" devices is where it would blow Atom out of the water and be worth the premium.
ikjadoon - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
It's PCIe. Come on now. Read the article.It's not even a long article, dude. And it has pictures. :( Anandtech deserves better.
lazybum131 - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
"PCIe based SSD for storage if I remember correctly." - And the author did NOTremember correctly. Unless of course Asus CEO, Jerry Shen, was mistaken last month:https://www.anandtech.com/show/12097/qualcomm-snap...
https://images.anandtech.com/doci/12097/1512501367...
Wow, dude, I can provide pictures too.
serendip - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
My mistake then. UFS should be a significant speedup over the pokey EMMC used on Atom tablets. I should know, I've used Bay Trail and Cherry Trail tablets and I find the slow storage to be the biggest performance issue.A 10" Snapdragon tablet running full Windows with x86 translation could very well be my next ultralight machine, if the price could go below $500. I'd buy it in a heartbeat at $300. Cherry Trail is still being used in this space because Intel and AMD have nothing comparable re. TDP and SDP. Snapdragons have much lower idle power and more efficient GPU blocks so a Windows tablet with 12 hour battery life should be doable.
lazybum131 - Thursday, January 18, 2018 - link
Agreed, for me a 8" tablet to replace my aging Dell Venue 8 Pro (Bay Trail) would instantly get my money at $500 if done right, maybe even higher as it would also replace my nearly 11-year old Latitude D630 laptop that's permanently docked.ikjadoon - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
Read the article. It's PCIe. Slow down. Read more carefully. You'll find the quote....I hope.Cherry Trail? Oh, gosh. Please never recommend a laptop to your close friends. They'll hate you sooner or later. And a tablet? What tablet has a proper keyboard like that? With backlighting?
Come on. Give evidence. Backup your claims. We're not politicians.
CyberAngel777 - Sunday, April 8, 2018 - link
Not PCIe, but UFS 2.0ZolaIII - Thursday, January 18, 2018 - link
When Chinese get to it massive you will be able to get ARM QC & other ones based for a same price as current Atom based ones as guess what SoC price difference is small.ikjadoon - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
Silly jjj. Keep your fantasies to yourself; they're ferment better there. ;)If you feel so confident, please share your $600 MSRP laptop recommendations. Let's pick them apart! :D
Not low-perf enough for people to care. Memory, sure. Storage: who do you think buys $600 laptops? Yeah, $10 that doesn't get spent. You better go call Acer: you're blowing their mind right now. A FP sensor is only $2? Damn, what a missed opportunity!
LTE: pennies for Qualcomm, kiddo. Do you understand what article you're commenting on?
Very few need it: yeah, tell that to Android OEMs and Apple. Nobody needs LTE! /s
Afford LTE: yeah, I'm ready for the 20-hour laptops with LTE. Please, educate us all. ;D
It won't compete with Atom and you know it. It's all right to admit it here in the comments; nobody knows who you are. :D
"Insist on LTE": how dare they allow more mobility. A crime!
People stupid enough to buy it = "People use computers different than me. And that's not fair. Let me belittle their intelligence because I use computers in the right way."
Man, did school get cancelled? How do such inane people get on Anandtech's comments? You'd think the quality of Anandtech would rub off on its commenters, but you're a shining example of that failure. Welp. At least we can see the rest of your...comment history.
ZolaIII - Thursday, January 18, 2018 - link
He is CEO at EETimes. & who are you?I hate him for it's stubbornness but never the less we base our debates on back bone and grounds based on facts.
ZolaIII - Thursday, January 18, 2018 - link
Yes but from greedy ASUS & look alikes.The S835 SoC costs about the same as newer Atom one, while performance & power consumption of S835 is still considerably better. The rest components depending on used one's respectively cost the same. S845 won't be much more pricier & it's development ready. Qualcomm could turn the page upside down making the real SoC for portables & ultralight as they have their wider OoO for now server only CPU core's & Adrenos are scalable enough. But we both know that this ain't happened at least not anytime soon. Now just imagine SoC containing 6 next gen OoO QC now server based core's coupled with two more A55's on DinamIQ cluster backed up with Adreno graphics with 512 ALU's (twice as much as current flagship one's) on the newer 7nm FinFET. DTP would stay in ultra portables range 5~6W with much better efficiency in idle and low light usage conditions (thanks to A55's), more general purpose CPU power thanks to 6 bigger OoO core's & significant enough GPU. Not only it would put at risk Intel Y series but it would also Hit AMD and Nv regarding GPU power at that DTP. I am confident that neither of them would have answer to that. Still SoC like that would probably be chipper for one third from Intel Y series based on up to date Intel pricing.
serendip - Thursday, January 18, 2018 - link
You must be ZolaIII from XDA. A fellow Mi Max owner :)Apollo Lake doesn't go below 6W TDP whereas Cherry Trail could hit 2W. Maybe Intel killed Willow Trail because it couldn't get competitive 3G and LTE onboard. I'm fine with the SD835 if these machines are to be released right now. A Q2 or Q3 release should use the SD845 instead. Hopefully cheap and cheery Chinese OEMs will start cranking out $300 Windows ARM tablets soon.
CyberAngel777 - Sunday, April 8, 2018 - link
I have Mi Max 2 so my opinions are twice as good and... I agree...twice! ;-)I'm waiting for Build 2018 & SD 845 models - June earliest(?)
DanNeely - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
I'm concerned about long term driver support. We recently had one of the generations of atom CPUs that used a non-Intel GPU fall out of new major Win10 updates (and onto a long term bug-fix only branch originally intended just for enterprise use) because it needed a new driver that was never made. We all know a major part of the Android update farce is that SoC makers only provide a year or two of driver updates before abandoning them for newer models. With the 5+ year lifespan of typical Windows laptops that's a disaster waiting to happen even assuming it doesn't end up abandoned by MS like Win8RT was.ikjadoon - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
This is key. Nobody is craving for Qualcomm’s abandonment routine that they run around with impunity on Android “because they can”.lmcd - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
Qualcomm's "abandonment" routine on Android has no comparisons to the ImgTech disaster referred to in Dan's comment.Also, Windows 10's driver model is likely to stay stable for most, if not all, of the lifespan of the laptop anyway. Android by comparison is a far more varying target.
ikjadoon - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
>Qualcomm's "abandonment" routine on Android has no comparisons to the ImgTech disaster referred to in Dan's comment.Is it not the same issue? Cheap hardware losing software support after a few months?
>Also, Windows 10's driver model is likely to stay stable for most, if not all, of the lifespan of the laptop anyway. Android by comparison is a far more varying target.
I don't see Android's driver model changing so significantly to deny updates. I think you're ignoring the business side of this: cost/benefit analysis. Qualcomm made the cheaper choice.
serendip - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
On Android, Qualcomm only writes drivers for board support packages. Manufacturers then take those drivers, integrate them with their own software and Android base to create an Android release. Most of the time, manufacturers don't bother with updating drivers for older phones and tablets.For Windows, Qualcomm will have to write drivers for every one of their chips on these upcoming ARM machines and support them for much longer than on Android. That's a good thing and hopefully it transfers over to Android as well.
ZolaIII - Thursday, January 18, 2018 - link
Well honey CAF suport is open, OEM's are the usual shits, there are QC SoC's with lasting support for longer than 5 years & rare examples for cheap smartphones with also such long suport as Xiaomi Redmi S1 with S400.euskalzabe - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
Interesting. I'm still rocking my 3 year old UX305, the Novago could be an interesting laptop update. If the performance is similar and I gain 20h of battery life... might be worth considering.HardwareDufus - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
Be interesting to see some of these devices with the upcoming SD845 in the not too distant future.ikjadoon - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
Qualcomm confirmed they are. “Wave 2” devices.serendip - Wednesday, January 17, 2018 - link
Which is why it's dumb for Qualcomm and OEMs to use the SD835 in machines that will debut in Q2-Q3, when SD845-based phones would have been out for a quarter or longer. If these ARM Windows machines are to last 5 years like typical laptops, they should have the latest chips on release, unless they're intended to be throwaway devices like cheap Atom junk.Fritzkier - Thursday, January 18, 2018 - link
Well that's because it's still the 1st gen arm based PC. Calm down, man. You don't want a failure product right?And 845 probably already reserved for many android phones. Qualcomm can't supply all of them at once...
serendip - Thursday, January 18, 2018 - link
Microsoft should really make a Surface out of a Snapdragon PC and aim it at the low end like the Surface 3 Atom. $400 for SD845, 10" hi-DPI screen, pen support and a 15-hour battery and I'm in heaven.domboy - Thursday, January 18, 2018 - link
That's what I'm hoping for as well, a Surface 3 successor running Windows ARM edition.CyberAngel777 - Sunday, April 8, 2018 - link
About that is already being tested as a prototype.versesuvius - Thursday, January 18, 2018 - link
What is the point of this laptop? Speed? Price? Productivity? Battery life? Lightness? "Always Connected"ness? (Which in a nutshell means you cannot run your programs unless you are connected to the internet, hence actually "Always Conned"ness).Actually the fact of the matter is that the information technology and therefore computers are at a turning point in history of information technology and therefore computers. For the first time in the history of computers the stupidity and gullibility of the users is driving the industry and sciences behind it. Where the intelligence of human beings once promised progress it is now the stupidity of the users that the computing "industry" is placing all its bets on.
esesaA - Thursday, January 18, 2018 - link
You can run programs without being connected to LTE. The only purpose is to have connectivity when you're not on WiFi or ethernet. It's not like programs will cease to run just because you aren't connected. Try running a desktop without internet and that's how your applications will behave. The fact of the matter is your device would be useless without internet, end of story.versesuvius - Thursday, January 18, 2018 - link
Then what is this "Always Connected" nonsense from Intel and everybody else, including AT?serendip - Thursday, January 18, 2018 - link
It's allowing a very low power standby state that keeps the LTE and WiFi radios on with some minimal processing, like what smartphones do. Your Windows connected PC can be asleep yet still receive emails, notifications, process torrents etc. whereas your average desktop is a mute brick once it enters sleep.Android and iOS have done this for years but it's only recently that Windows machines gained this capability. These ARM machines have the added advantage of running an LTE connection even when asleep. I think Microsoft is testing the waters for a Surface Phone, a device that would be the ultimate convergence between a smartphone and a PC.
versesuvius - Thursday, January 18, 2018 - link
That "sleep" of Android is just a fancy screensaver man. Did you really think that the tablet is actually "sleeping"? Any laptop can do that, very easily.serendip - Thursday, January 18, 2018 - link
Most laptops can't idle at <1W and still process emails, instant messages, handle downloads etc. over mobile data. Smartphones can. Maybe you're just trolling...versesuvius - Friday, January 19, 2018 - link
ARM based chips don't use much more than 1 W when they are not "sleeping" and running many programs. So, it is supposedly the power consumption that makes this laptop a wonderful thing. Intel is advertising "Always Connected" with its products that use much more powerful CPUs that have higer TDPs. So, your case about <1W is moot. You do not seem to understand the difference between "sleeping" and a screen saver that saves some power mostly in the display department.serendip - Friday, January 19, 2018 - link
Most new Intel Core and Atom chips have a very low power mode just above idle that allows for Connected Standby on Windows - WiFi is always on and the CPU can respond to network events but everything else is turned off. Intel's Always Connected branding extends this concept to LTE connectivity by using Intel XMM modems. It remains to be seen how much power is consumed by Intel chips in their connected states.Of course, Snapdragon platforms have been able to do this for years with low power states and always-on networking. Android sleep isn't a screensaver, modern mobiles OSes like Android and iOS are engineered from the ground up to run minimal cores at low speeds yet still remain responsive to network events. You're correct in pointing out that ARM chips can happily work with 1 W only and that means long battery life in these ARM PCs.
peevee - Thursday, January 18, 2018 - link
"A quick look through the system settings showed eight Snapdragon 835 cores"That makes no sense - Snapdragon 835 is not a core.
CyberAngel777 - Sunday, April 8, 2018 - link
"A quick look through the system settings showed eight Snapdragon 835 Kryo 280 cores"added the missing "Kryo 280" - Happy?
Wolfpup - Thursday, January 18, 2018 - link
Obviously I'm super interested about how this will work. Obviously the Windows RT devices SHOULD have had x86 support, AND they really ought to offer a Windows 10 upgrade for like the Surface 1 and 2, with this x86 support, even if it would probably run slow...Anyway very interesting, and I hadn't thought of the fact that really the GPU ought to run just normal Windows code with the right drivers, that the CPU architecture really shouldn't matter. Very interesting to see if it could run real Windows games of some sort that are x86...
serendip - Friday, January 19, 2018 - link
Not likely, the Tegra SoCs on the Surface RT machines were a nightmare of proprietary drivers and proprietary boot processes. They're also much slower than today's flagship ARM SoCs. There's been a lot of progress done in the past few years on standardising bus connectivity on ARM platforms.