Q1-Q2 2021 expected only for upto 2sockets, even Sapphire Rapids is scheduled for 2021 (2022 availability) so we all know how good the Ice Lake is expected to be...
Somehow I find it hard to imagine that they'd start wafers of these, while they struggle with having significant numbers on all the bigger Tiger Lake variants.
1.7x single performance gains when it's 3 vs 2.8 GHz on a J5005 sounds interesting, but is it real?
@abufrejoval --> while they struggle with having significant numbers on all the bigger Tiger Lake variants.
They are going to get around 3x more die per wafer vs, quad core tiger lake and I imagine much higher yields, so If they have the customers why not run them. At ~60mm^2 per die they should get 1000 dpw, so each million chips is would require 1000 10nm wafers + the support die on 14nm.
It yields because the chips are so tiny. Intel can afford bad yields here, as there are 8-15 times more chips on a waffer than premium mobile/desktop SoCs
How will this little Tiger fare against BIG Navi? I think Intel has AMD on power for sure but will they be able to play the high end games that we expect Big Navi to do?
You basically asked the equivalent of "how will this Honda Civic fare against the space shuttle". They are in such completely different markets that there is absolutely no reason to even want to compare them. This processor is for low power (often fanless) things like facial recognition cameras, medical imaging, machine learning, environmental monitoring, digital signs, etc. Big Navi is for desktop gamers where power usage doesn't matter.
How will AMDSuperFan fare against IntelSuperFan? I think IntelSuperFin has AMDSuperFan on contrarian fact denial for sure but will they be able to whine about shills and their rival company's objective inferiority like we expect r/AMD to do?
Zephyr is not Intel's own, it's Zephyr RTOS project under Linxu Foundation umbrella. https://www.zephyrproject.org/ -- I hope Intel will submit their BSP sources there too.
Those iX-11x5GxE with AVX-512, Xe and ECC RAM support looks interesting. So far only ECC + AVX-512 were Xeon and they were not available on small boards with GPIO.
Once you start to get to low single digit watt's you really need to start looking at supported I/O of the SoC as well. It's not necessarily all the core's fault. At some point some of the high speed I/O has to come off the table to go lower.
Yeah, the drop from a 15w TDP to 4.5w is huge. 4.5w to 2w is just as big.
People don't realize that a 15w TDP design can handle a 30w turbo just fine for a few seconds, or the fact that the uncore and IO take up a watt or two at 15w TDP.
That's a quarter of your power budget at 4.5w. Cherry trail has a single PCI-E lane at 2W SDP, at 4w it's 4 lanes.
Now those Pentium and Celeron-based Elkhart Lake processors are awesome looking!!! 32EU GPUs and significant per clock performance gains should make for some exciting passively cooled laptops in the 11.6 inch range. I cannot wait to see these land in the retail space in order to pump up the compute power for 6.5W TDP fanless notebooks!
Would be interesting in small, cheap fanless designs like Surface Go and whatever crap Chuwi and Teclast put out. The GPU in the Pentium 4425Y stomps on any Atom SOC GPU even though single-threaded performance is only a little higher. I wonder if we can compare a 4C/4T Elkhart Lake Celeron/Pentium against a 2C/4T Amber Lake Pentium Gold.
Where's the edit button AT??? Anyway, the Elkhart Lake Atoms can turbo to 3.0 GHz while the Pentium Gold only goes up to 1.7 GHz. Based on prior usage of a Surface Go 2 vs. a cheap Chuwi thing with the Atom N4100, I still feel the big core Amber Lake chip is more responsive compared to the slightly laggy Atom.
Yes there is a lot more overall system responsiveness in the big core chips as compared to these Atom-based designs, but the processor cost is higher and that drives the price of the system up from ~$200-300 USD sweet spot for the price of new hardware. Also those faster notebooks tend to ship with screens that run resolutions above 1366x768 so the GPU gains are often wasted driving more pixels that are strictly necessary to get across the point of what's on the screen. I certainly don't want to plunk down more than $300 to get a PC even for gaming since, beyond that point, I may as well go buy a console and just use whatever laptop I already own for word processing and fetching e-mail.
I think it's more about being to scale at the low end of the power/performance curve when compared to Tiger Lake. Tremont was advertised as being able to address the lower power embedded market with some overlap in the mid-range. The question is does it need to go even lower power to compete against ARM in this market. Besides power, the smaller caches and other tweaks would hopefully lead to smaller dies which is important in order to compete on cost in this market. Also, I'm sure the embedded SoC features (ADC's, PWM's, Cortex-M7 Real Time Core) are outside of the focus of the Tiger Lake client computer group.
Lowest it can go is 4.5W which might not be enough against ARM designs. If you're running an embedded OS stack that already has ARM support, then these Atoms' power consumption might be too high.
Options? Not every embedded project requires a $400+ 8 core beast when a $60-ish 2 or 4 core processor can more than handle the job. Even the current Gemini Lake refresh has enough single threaded oomph to make the windows desktop quite snappy.
Actually, now that I think about it, very few embedded projects require the horsepower of something like a higher-end Ryzen 4000U- series. The ones that do has enough financial backing to get custom ASICs.
10W Atom at 3GHz doesn't seem impressive considering it is the latest and greatest process of Intel. 14nm Atoms can hit low 2GHz turbo speeds which I think is at 6-8 TDP
Nah, to slow in the long run. Better use the slowest cheapest embedded Xeon E or D or any embedded ryzen. Are you reading this mr or misses HP microserver gen XI designer?
If you're equating an HP microserver to a "net device" or "NAS box" it might be time to finish lunch and head back to the data center. It's the difference between Consumer (or IoT) vs Rack-mount
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CajunArson - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
The CPU die is smaller than the PCH die?STOP COPYING AMD INTEL!
CajunArson - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
Oh wait... Allow me to apologize. I forgot that the memory controller is on the CPU die since we don't need a northbridge anymore.MOVE THE MEMORY CONTROLLER BACK TO THE PCH WHILE WE WATCH A FRIENDS MARATHON ON DVD INTEL!
Jorgp2 - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
The fuck are you going on about?Intel has been doing that since 2012?
ilt24 - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
@CajunArson ... "The CPU die is smaller than the PCH die?"Which takes us back to 2009...when Intel introduced Clarksdale/Arrandale.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/2722/5
SSNSeawolf - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
I'm starting to think Intel might have a problem making large, high-frequency silicon on 10nm.shabby - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
You don't say 😂deil - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
i wonder why? is it why we have atoms higher than desktops ?JayNor - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
10nm Ice Lake Servers with 28 cores ...https://newsroom.intel.com/articles/10nm-intel-xeo...
shabby - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
Vaporware until its out.duploxxx - Thursday, September 24, 2020 - link
Q1-Q2 2021 expected only for upto 2sockets, even Sapphire Rapids is scheduled for 2021 (2022 availability) so we all know how good the Ice Lake is expected to be...Even Milan will be earlier than Ice Lake
Tabalan - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
Ok, great, but where is consumer version, Skyhawk Lake? It's been almost whole year since Intel showcased Tremont...Jorgp2 - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
>Pentium J6425That is the consumer version
Tabalan - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
Are you sure? Elkhart Lake is embedded, Skyhawk Lake is consumer market (laptops, NUC and so on).Even title of table is "Tremont Atoms for Embedded"
Jorgp2 - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
J and N are the consumer chips, X series are embeddedSarahKerrigan - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
Ark says J and N, in this case, are embedded too.Jorgp2 - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
It also says it's for laptops, tablets, and desktops.J and N have always been the consumer parts.
IntelUser2000 - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
While that's true, we'll see an actual consumer focused part code-named Jasper Lake.abufrejoval - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
Somehow I find it hard to imagine that they'd start wafers of these, while they struggle with having significant numbers on all the bigger Tiger Lake variants.1.7x single performance gains when it's 3 vs 2.8 GHz on a J5005 sounds interesting, but is it real?
Tabalan - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
Cherry picking. It's ~30% IPC increase on average, plus those <10% higher clocks, should give 40% ST perf uplift.In some cases Treemont offers 80% IPC increase, while in other only ~12%.
https://images.anandtech.com/doci/15009/Tremont%20...
Spunjji - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
Ahhh, they're taking the Nvidia approach to performance projections.Jorgp2 - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
>In some cases Treemont offers 80% IPC increase, while in other only ~12%.That's not how it works, IPC is an average. That is why Intel talks about a 40% increase, since real workloads are made up of different tasks..
ilt24 - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
@abufrejoval --> while they struggle with having significant numbers on all the bigger Tiger Lake variants.They are going to get around 3x more die per wafer vs, quad core tiger lake and I imagine much higher yields, so If they have the customers why not run them. At ~60mm^2 per die they should get 1000 dpw, so each million chips is would require 1000 10nm wafers + the support die on 14nm.
Spunjji - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
They've gotta use that 10nm++ process for something they can sell eventually, so it might as well be something that actually yields.tkSteveFOX - Thursday, September 24, 2020 - link
It yields because the chips are so tiny. Intel can afford bad yields here, as there are 8-15 times more chips on a waffer than premium mobile/desktop SoCsSpunjji - Monday, September 28, 2020 - link
We're in agreement 👍IntelUser2000 - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
70% improvement over Apollo Lake, not Gemini Lake. On embedded Apollo Lake is the last generation.Core-wise, Gemini Lake is the last generation. J5005 is Gemini Lake.
nandnandnand - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
I guess we'll see an ODROID-H3 with Pentium J6425 or Celeron J6413.AMDSuperFan - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
How will this little Tiger fare against BIG Navi? I think Intel has AMD on power for sure but will they be able to play the high end games that we expect Big Navi to do?Spunjji - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
To quote Niko Bellic from GTA IV:"Shut up, and fuck off"
dullard - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
You basically asked the equivalent of "how will this Honda Civic fare against the space shuttle". They are in such completely different markets that there is absolutely no reason to even want to compare them. This processor is for low power (often fanless) things like facial recognition cameras, medical imaging, machine learning, environmental monitoring, digital signs, etc. Big Navi is for desktop gamers where power usage doesn't matter.Unashamed_unoriginal_username_x86 - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
How will AMDSuperFan fare against IntelSuperFan? I think IntelSuperFin has AMDSuperFan on contrarian fact denial for sure but will they be able to whine about shills and their rival company's objective inferiority like we expect r/AMD to do?kgardas - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
Zephyr is not Intel's own, it's Zephyr RTOS project under Linxu Foundation umbrella. https://www.zephyrproject.org/ -- I hope Intel will submit their BSP sources there too.Ian Cutress - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
Yes, I know this. What Intel is using is a Zephyr-like implementation of their own design.factual - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
Zephyr is sort of Intel's own. The project started at Intel when they open sourced Rocket RTOS back when they Wind River was part of Intel.kgardas - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
Those iX-11x5GxE with AVX-512, Xe and ECC RAM support looks interesting. So far only ECC + AVX-512 were Xeon and they were not available on small boards with GPIO.yeeeeman - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
So the only 4.5W TDP product is a 2 core Atom at 1Ghz? Wtf?Jorgp2 - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
They cancelled their 2W atoms, 4.5w is a bit too low for them to hit.flgt - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
Once you start to get to low single digit watt's you really need to start looking at supported I/O of the SoC as well. It's not necessarily all the core's fault. At some point some of the high speed I/O has to come off the table to go lower.Jorgp2 - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
Yeah, the drop from a 15w TDP to 4.5w is huge. 4.5w to 2w is just as big.People don't realize that a 15w TDP design can handle a 30w turbo just fine for a few seconds, or the fact that the uncore and IO take up a watt or two at 15w TDP.
That's a quarter of your power budget at 4.5w. Cherry trail has a single PCI-E lane at 2W SDP, at 4w it's 4 lanes.
PeachNCream - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
Now those Pentium and Celeron-based Elkhart Lake processors are awesome looking!!! 32EU GPUs and significant per clock performance gains should make for some exciting passively cooled laptops in the 11.6 inch range. I cannot wait to see these land in the retail space in order to pump up the compute power for 6.5W TDP fanless notebooks!serendip - Thursday, September 24, 2020 - link
Would be interesting in small, cheap fanless designs like Surface Go and whatever crap Chuwi and Teclast put out. The GPU in the Pentium 4425Y stomps on any Atom SOC GPU even though single-threaded performance is only a little higher. I wonder if we can compare a 4C/4T Elkhart Lake Celeron/Pentium against a 2C/4T Amber Lake Pentium Gold.serendip - Thursday, September 24, 2020 - link
Where's the edit button AT??? Anyway, the Elkhart Lake Atoms can turbo to 3.0 GHz while the Pentium Gold only goes up to 1.7 GHz. Based on prior usage of a Surface Go 2 vs. a cheap Chuwi thing with the Atom N4100, I still feel the big core Amber Lake chip is more responsive compared to the slightly laggy Atom.PeachNCream - Thursday, September 24, 2020 - link
Yes there is a lot more overall system responsiveness in the big core chips as compared to these Atom-based designs, but the processor cost is higher and that drives the price of the system up from ~$200-300 USD sweet spot for the price of new hardware. Also those faster notebooks tend to ship with screens that run resolutions above 1366x768 so the GPU gains are often wasted driving more pixels that are strictly necessary to get across the point of what's on the screen. I certainly don't want to plunk down more than $300 to get a PC even for gaming since, beyond that point, I may as well go buy a console and just use whatever laptop I already own for word processing and fetching e-mail.Guspaz - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
What's the point of a 12W Atom? Tiger Lake UP3 does 12W, and Tiger Lake UP4 does 7W. Not to mention Ryzen 4000 goes as low as 10W with 8 cores...flgt - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
I think it's more about being to scale at the low end of the power/performance curve when compared to Tiger Lake. Tremont was advertised as being able to address the lower power embedded market with some overlap in the mid-range. The question is does it need to go even lower power to compete against ARM in this market. Besides power, the smaller caches and other tweaks would hopefully lead to smaller dies which is important in order to compete on cost in this market. Also, I'm sure the embedded SoC features (ADC's, PWM's, Cortex-M7 Real Time Core) are outside of the focus of the Tiger Lake client computer group.serendip - Thursday, September 24, 2020 - link
Lowest it can go is 4.5W which might not be enough against ARM designs. If you're running an embedded OS stack that already has ARM support, then these Atoms' power consumption might be too high.Jorgp2 - Wednesday, September 23, 2020 - link
>What's the point of a 12W Atom? Tiger Lake UP3 does 12W, and Tiger Lake UP4 does 7W. Not to mention Ryzen 4000 goes as low as 10W with 8 cores...Because those also go up to 40w with 8 cores, and are throttling hard otherwise.
A 12w atom will be running at max clocks, and still have thermal headroom. Plus the additional TDP from Gemini Lake will help the bigger graphics.
Namisecond - Tuesday, January 5, 2021 - link
Options? Not every embedded project requires a $400+ 8 core beast when a $60-ish 2 or 4 core processor can more than handle the job. Even the current Gemini Lake refresh has enough single threaded oomph to make the windows desktop quite snappy.Actually, now that I think about it, very few embedded projects require the horsepower of something like a higher-end Ryzen 4000U- series. The ones that do has enough financial backing to get custom ASICs.
zodiacfml - Thursday, September 24, 2020 - link
10W Atom at 3GHz doesn't seem impressive considering it is the latest and greatest process of Intel. 14nm Atoms can hit low 2GHz turbo speeds which I think is at 6-8 TDPdigitalgriffin - Thursday, September 24, 2020 - link
That will make for a nice embedded net device or NAS box.Foeketijn - Thursday, September 24, 2020 - link
Nah, to slow in the long run. Better use the slowest cheapest embedded Xeon E or D or any embedded ryzen.Are you reading this mr or misses HP microserver gen XI designer?
dotjaz - Friday, September 25, 2020 - link
I would take Atom/Pentium over Xeon D/E anyday. Xeon tends to not include QSV. No realtime transcoding is a hard no for me.Namisecond - Tuesday, January 5, 2021 - link
If you're equating an HP microserver to a "net device" or "NAS box" it might be time to finish lunch and head back to the data center. It's the difference between Consumer (or IoT) vs Rack-mountnils_ - Friday, September 25, 2020 - link
No successor for Denverton as of yet, maybe because they traditionally have more cores...Adityaseven7 - Saturday, September 26, 2020 - link
Might wanna change that 10nm Superfin to 10nm (on the 3rd page)...as per the newer "Decoder Ring" article.