I am actually interested in learning how windows deals with this unified memory. Does it work unified, or is it partitioned in two? Will software copy assets from the "system" memory partition to the "VRAM" partition?
Same as any other APU that utilizes shared memory... like pretty much any Intel chip that doesn't have a chunk of HBM nearby, or the vast majority of AMD APUs.
On that note, is there any way they can change the current allocation? Or perhaps even allow us to choose the allocation of memory (does it have a BIOS)? I'm thinking 3GB for the GPU and 5GB for the CPU would be more balanced....I figure that would still leave near 4GB "RAM" free for applications.
It would be interesting to see them offer a higher tier version if possible, with more GDDR5 (4GB GPU / 8GB CPU should be fine) and perhaps a single large SSD (at least 512GB, leaving the HDD slot empty for users). Could that be done for an extra $100? I'm thinking no HDD nearly offsets the SSD upgrade and 4GB more GDDR5 around $40 (based on RAM prices).
Having a dual boot console is a very interesting idea to me, all the benefits of a simple optimized gaming platform along with all the benefits of a full windows PC.
Grab a RR 2400G, but don't bother testing Raven Ridge's integrated graphics. The 2400G (no dual CCX) could be paired with an RX 570.
And yeah definitely throw Kaby-G in there... top model KBL-G has the same number of CUs. The HBM it uses actually has lower bandwidth, but it's not shared with the CPU like the GDDR in this custom chip (unless I'm missing something), so should be interesting. Fireflight has slightly higher clocks but i7-8809G has an unlocked GPU too I think.
Comparing the CPU performance to RR could be interesting: massively more bandwidth but maybe higher latency for the GDDR5. It's got shorter traces, so maybe the latency is even better. But GPUs can hide latency so well, I doubt it's high on their optimization priority list.
Yes, the latency won't affect the GPU negatively, which is another reason not to bother pitting it against the 11CU iGPU. However, on the CPU side yes that is one of the considerations. I'd be interested to see a downclocked 2400G (3.0Ghz) in CPU tests against FF.
HDCP licensing is expensive. 2.2 is more expensive per unit than 1.4. And Chinese don't care about protection at all, so adding a cheaper hdcp license on there just to make it look like they care makes sense.
Perhaps. But 2.2 is needed for 4k, although the lack of a Blu-ray drive means that it would only be necessary for streaming services that require it, and you're right on that front since they use local ones which might not.
I'm very excited to see the review of this product. There is a huge opportunity for Microsoft to follow a similar strategy with their own consoles. Interesting unique one of a kind PCs to complement the console versions. Ryzen Xbox with Windows and an SSD. Should be a huge hit I would think, clearly the inspiration for this product.
I'd buy my very first console if MS let me install there Windows officially and it was working as regular PC as well 100%. I think im not be only one who would.
If you don't care about driving 4 displays at once but care about using two displays connected via HDMI you can easely convert from both DisplayPort and DVI to HDMI with cheap, passive adapters.
thats where PS5 and xbox "next" will come into play, seeing as they both already use "custom" cores based on jaguar and 7850 7950 levels of performance (tweaked of course)
their next step will of course likely be Zen+ or Zen 2 and Vega (or likely a navi variant) "hopefully" will also have at least 8gb usable ram and similar for the graphics core, as well as SSD storage system I would say "minimum" of 500 or 525gb now that their pricing has become much much better then when PS4 and Xbox were launched, as well as ensure USB and not funky stupid light bars and crap like that...in other words, hopefully they take more time to really go all out and make them "as good as they can be" to avoid careless mistakes.
they really should make their consoles more like a standard PC IMO so there will still be need of laptops/notebooks for the "mobile" work, a higher performing game/media machine (consolized PC) and then of course a full out desktop type thing.
I can understand that they (MSFT/SONY) want to lock things down for good reason, but, there is much that can be said about the real awesome ability to be able to change fans or coolers and things like that (if needed) and if they want to make their consoles more and more "media" centric, then they need to bloody well get away from making them super proprietary crud, open them up a little, even if the "game mode" becomes a full locked down situation (Win 10 is already wanting/trying to go that route, why not go the extra mile and put this towards the console as well?)
now, in regards to this thing, is it ONLY a console, or is it truly a hybrid like consoles should have been quite awhile back, at the very least so the end user can easily swap out fans that die, change cooling paste or whatever....their secrets can stay theirs, but, new laws state the "warranty void if removed" is not lawful anymore, so, they should be more "open" to allow 3rd party fixing or changing things without having to pay big bucks to do a "simple" fix (which is anything but brain science if they use "standard" parts instead of micro connectors and such)
I'd love to see the effect of the GDDR5 memory on non-gaming applications. Granted, 8GB is not enough for video editing, but at least in theory, this could be an interesting approach for performance growth in a post Moore's law future.
Still the latency issue may be somewhat compensated by caches. Actually I could imagine that some of the synthetic benchmarks could do quite well as they eat through large chunks of data profiting from the bandwidth, but the more random it is, the worse it will fare.
And then I think that in real-life use, you wouldn't really notice the slowdown doing Excel or Word.
"For now I need to work out what a good GPU comparison point might be. Kaby G? But that has HBM... Suggestions and thoughts are very welcome."
In my opinion, the best comparison would be with custom-made PCs with quad-cores and discrete GPUs that have a similar cost to the Subor Z+. In your earlier article, you mentioned the Subor costs $625 pre-tax, so with international distribution and tax I believe it would be something around $700 / 700€ / £630.
I think the most logical comparisons would be:
1 - Hades Canyon obviously, though price difference must be taken into account
2 - A $700 DIY PC on a mITX platform with the best possible components and AMD GPU (e.g. Ryzen 2200G / i3 8100, RX580 8GB)
3 - A $700 DIY on a mITX platform with the best possible components nvidia GPU (e.g. Ryzen 2200G / i3 8100, GTX1060 6GB)
In the end, it would be something like:
- Ryzen 3 2200G ~$100 - Gigabyte B450-I Aorus Pro ~$120 (already with WiFi AC module) - 4GB + 4GB DDR4 2400 ~$70 - RX570 8GB or GTX 1060 3GB $220 - 128GB NVMe drive ~$80 - 1TB HDD ~$40 - Silverstone Mini ITX case ~$50 - Corsair/EVGA 350-400W PSU - $45
Oops, I forgot to include a $100 windows license so... I guess the GPUs would have to go down to RX560 / GTX 1050 levels?
Though an admittedly costlier solution with a GTX1060 3GB and a RX 570 should definitely be present, as well as e.g. a Ryzen 2400G to get the same 4-core/8-thread (2400G/2500X + RX570 might get close to performance parity with the Subor Z+). This could be present to show people exactly how much money they'd save with an integrated solution against a DIY performance equivalent.
In the end, it would tell us how much we'd gain or loose in performance, total power consumption, compactness and of course versatility/upgradability.
Thanks Ian, hope the teasing for the full review doesn't last for weeks! The Hades Canyon setup is the most logical comparison on the PC side, maybe with a Ryzen 2400G with fast DDR4 and overclocked GPU as the lower-cost alternative. Also, while this really looks like an attractive alternative to a PS4Pro or Xbox OneX (which means one still needs a PC for other stuff), I wonder if the manufacturer (PlayRuyi) has considered an +8 variant of this system - basically, add 8 GB of DDR4 for the CPU to the board, and reserve the entire 8 GB GDDR5 for the GPU; an additional $50-70 or so would be money I'd gladly spend for this. The lower latency DDR4 would likely even speed up the CPU, and prevent any drop in graphics performance I'd expect in the current unified memory setup when the CPU accesses larger chunks of the currently shared GDDR5.
Nice idea with the 8 GB DDR4. I hope they will make an empty DDR4 DIMM socket in the next version of the motherboard. But I wonder what kind of Antivirus that will be possible?
I'd love to know if the SoC even has pins for extra RAM: Every pin costs extra so in a cost optimized SoC I don't see that happen: It's a single life cycle product I'd guess.
I guess more RAM in a GPU design means an almost square cost curve as you have to increase everything to keep the performance balance.
The real problem is that game engines assume DRAM is plentyful and cheap and at least 8GB for 2GB of GPU RAM. So here we have 2GB missing from a "typical configuration" and while games could be adapted for that, they currently are not: Chicken and eggs...
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peterfares - Wednesday, September 19, 2018 - link
8GB combined memory is a little bit constrained. 12GB or 16GB would have given it much more room to breathe.peterfares - Wednesday, September 19, 2018 - link
I am actually interested in learning how windows deals with this unified memory. Does it work unified, or is it partitioned in two? Will software copy assets from the "system" memory partition to the "VRAM" partition?Alexvrb - Wednesday, September 19, 2018 - link
Same as any other APU that utilizes shared memory... like pretty much any Intel chip that doesn't have a chunk of HBM nearby, or the vast majority of AMD APUs.looncraz - Thursday, January 17, 2019 - link
It is partitioned.2GB system, 4GB Windows, 2GB Video.
EliteRetard - Thursday, September 20, 2018 - link
On that note, is there any way they can change the current allocation? Or perhaps even allow us to choose the allocation of memory (does it have a BIOS)? I'm thinking 3GB for the GPU and 5GB for the CPU would be more balanced....I figure that would still leave near 4GB "RAM" free for applications.It would be interesting to see them offer a higher tier version if possible, with more GDDR5 (4GB GPU / 8GB CPU should be fine) and perhaps a single large SSD (at least 512GB, leaving the HDD slot empty for users). Could that be done for an extra $100? I'm thinking no HDD nearly offsets the SSD upgrade and 4GB more GDDR5 around $40 (based on RAM prices).
Having a dual boot console is a very interesting idea to me, all the benefits of a simple optimized gaming platform along with all the benefits of a full windows PC.
MrSpadge - Wednesday, September 19, 2018 - link
Definitely test against Kaby-G and Raven Ridge.Alexvrb - Wednesday, September 19, 2018 - link
Grab a RR 2400G, but don't bother testing Raven Ridge's integrated graphics. The 2400G (no dual CCX) could be paired with an RX 570.And yeah definitely throw Kaby-G in there... top model KBL-G has the same number of CUs. The HBM it uses actually has lower bandwidth, but it's not shared with the CPU like the GDDR in this custom chip (unless I'm missing something), so should be interesting. Fireflight has slightly higher clocks but i7-8809G has an unlocked GPU too I think.
MrSpadge - Thursday, September 20, 2018 - link
Comparing the CPU performance to RR could be interesting: massively more bandwidth but maybe higher latency for the GDDR5. It's got shorter traces, so maybe the latency is even better. But GPUs can hide latency so well, I doubt it's high on their optimization priority list.Alexvrb - Friday, September 21, 2018 - link
Yes, the latency won't affect the GPU negatively, which is another reason not to bother pitting it against the 11CU iGPU. However, on the CPU side yes that is one of the considerations. I'd be interested to see a downclocked 2400G (3.0Ghz) in CPU tests against FF.stanleyipkiss - Wednesday, September 19, 2018 - link
Eurogamer had one on test (DigitalFoundry I guess) before Ian.Komachi_Ensaka - Wednesday, September 19, 2018 - link
If You can do it , I want to see Overclocking result of AMD Fenghuang Raven and CPU/GPU Clock Rates Graph.Tarwinin - Wednesday, September 19, 2018 - link
Ok surprised it has hdcp 1.4 instead of 2.2.Are you sure that's not a mistake?
timecop1818 - Thursday, September 20, 2018 - link
HDCP licensing is expensive. 2.2 is more expensive per unit than 1.4. And Chinese don't care about protection at all, so adding a cheaper hdcp license on there just to make it look like they care makes sense.Tarwinin - Thursday, September 20, 2018 - link
Perhaps. But 2.2 is needed for 4k, although the lack of a Blu-ray drive means that it would only be necessary for streaming services that require it, and you're right on that front since they use local ones which might not.Alistair - Wednesday, September 19, 2018 - link
I'm very excited to see the review of this product. There is a huge opportunity for Microsoft to follow a similar strategy with their own consoles. Interesting unique one of a kind PCs to complement the console versions. Ryzen Xbox with Windows and an SSD. Should be a huge hit I would think, clearly the inspiration for this product.milkod2001 - Thursday, September 20, 2018 - link
I'd buy my very first console if MS let me install there Windows officially and it was working as regular PC as well 100%. I think im not be only one who would.coolhardware - Wednesday, September 19, 2018 - link
Anybody know how many video outputs this device has?Thank you :-)
dishayu - Wednesday, September 19, 2018 - link
The picture has 2 HDMI ports.HardwareDufus - Friday, September 21, 2018 - link
the 2 HDMI ports are nice... I wish there were mITX boards that included 2 HDMI ports in lieu of DVI or DisplayPort.vithrell - Friday, September 21, 2018 - link
If you don't care about driving 4 displays at once but care about using two displays connected via HDMI you can easely convert from both DisplayPort and DVI to HDMI with cheap, passive adapters.lamshing - Wednesday, September 19, 2018 - link
Seems subor is actually serious, they have set up a git repository https://github.com/suborEris_Floralia - Thursday, September 20, 2018 - link
Test against R9 380/285, RX570, GTX 1050Ti/1060?Also curious about how it compares to current consoles but that would be difficult to do tho
Dragonstongue - Thursday, September 20, 2018 - link
thats where PS5 and xbox "next" will come into play, seeing as they both already use "custom" cores based on jaguar and 7850 7950 levels of performance (tweaked of course)their next step will of course likely be Zen+ or Zen 2 and Vega (or likely a navi variant)
"hopefully" will also have at least 8gb usable ram and similar for the graphics core, as well as SSD storage system I would say "minimum" of 500 or 525gb now that their pricing has become much much better then when PS4 and Xbox were launched, as well as ensure USB and not funky stupid light bars and crap like that...in other words, hopefully they take more time to really go all out and make them "as good as they can be" to avoid careless mistakes.
they really should make their consoles more like a standard PC IMO
so there will still be need of laptops/notebooks for the "mobile" work, a higher performing game/media machine (consolized PC) and then of course a full out desktop type thing.
I can understand that they (MSFT/SONY) want to lock things down for good reason, but, there is much that can be said about the real awesome ability to be able to change fans or coolers and things like that (if needed) and if they want to make their consoles more and more "media" centric, then they need to bloody well get away from making them super proprietary crud, open them up a little, even if the "game mode" becomes a full locked down situation (Win 10 is already wanting/trying to go that route, why not go the extra mile and put this towards the console as well?)
now, in regards to this thing, is it ONLY a console, or is it truly a hybrid like consoles should have been quite awhile back, at the very least so the end user can easily swap out fans that die, change cooling paste or whatever....their secrets can stay theirs, but, new laws state the "warranty void if removed" is not lawful anymore, so, they should be more "open" to allow 3rd party fixing or changing things without having to pay big bucks to do a "simple" fix (which is anything but brain science if they use "standard" parts instead of micro connectors and such)
Ian Cutress - Thursday, September 20, 2018 - link
Watch the video. Answers most of your questions.dromoxen - Thursday, September 20, 2018 - link
None of the benchmarking tools know what it is yet afaik . Compare to 2200g/2400 and maybe i3-8350k/gtx1050 .. does that sound fair?esterhasz - Thursday, September 20, 2018 - link
I'd love to see the effect of the GDDR5 memory on non-gaming applications. Granted, 8GB is not enough for video editing, but at least in theory, this could be an interesting approach for performance growth in a post Moore's law future.Dribble - Thursday, September 20, 2018 - link
Not great as GDDR5 has significantly higher latency then DDR4, and for cpu's the lower latency is more important then the higher bandwidth.abufrejoval - Wednesday, September 26, 2018 - link
Still the latency issue may be somewhat compensated by caches. Actually I could imagine that some of the synthetic benchmarks could do quite well as they eat through large chunks of data profiting from the bandwidth, but the more random it is, the worse it will fare.And then I think that in real-life use, you wouldn't really notice the slowdown doing Excel or Word.
I'd love to get my hands on one to test...
ToTTenTranz - Thursday, September 20, 2018 - link
"For now I need to work out what a good GPU comparison point might be. Kaby G? But that has HBM... Suggestions and thoughts are very welcome."In my opinion, the best comparison would be with custom-made PCs with quad-cores and discrete GPUs that have a similar cost to the Subor Z+. In your earlier article, you mentioned the Subor costs $625 pre-tax, so with international distribution and tax I believe it would be something around $700 / 700€ / £630.
I think the most logical comparisons would be:
1 - Hades Canyon obviously, though price difference must be taken into account
2 - A $700 DIY PC on a mITX platform with the best possible components and AMD GPU (e.g. Ryzen 2200G / i3 8100, RX580 8GB)
3 - A $700 DIY on a mITX platform with the best possible components nvidia GPU (e.g. Ryzen 2200G / i3 8100, GTX1060 6GB)
In the end, it would be something like:
- Ryzen 3 2200G ~$100
- Gigabyte B450-I Aorus Pro ~$120 (already with WiFi AC module)
- 4GB + 4GB DDR4 2400 ~$70
- RX570 8GB or GTX 1060 3GB $220
- 128GB NVMe drive ~$80
- 1TB HDD ~$40
- Silverstone Mini ITX case ~$50
- Corsair/EVGA 350-400W PSU - $45
Total $725 plus shipping.
ToTTenTranz - Thursday, September 20, 2018 - link
Oops, I forgot to include a $100 windows license so... I guess the GPUs would have to go down to RX560 / GTX 1050 levels?Though an admittedly costlier solution with a GTX1060 3GB and a RX 570 should definitely be present, as well as e.g. a Ryzen 2400G to get the same 4-core/8-thread (2400G/2500X + RX570 might get close to performance parity with the Subor Z+). This could be present to show people exactly how much money they'd save with an integrated solution against a DIY performance equivalent.
In the end, it would tell us how much we'd gain or loose in performance, total power consumption, compactness and of course versatility/upgradability.
jjj - Thursday, September 20, 2018 - link
Wonder when cars will have something like this for console grade gaming, they got to try and make autonomy as comfy and fun as possible.eastcoast_pete - Thursday, September 20, 2018 - link
Thanks Ian, hope the teasing for the full review doesn't last for weeks! The Hades Canyon setup is the most logical comparison on the PC side, maybe with a Ryzen 2400G with fast DDR4 and overclocked GPU as the lower-cost alternative.Also, while this really looks like an attractive alternative to a PS4Pro or Xbox OneX (which means one still needs a PC for other stuff), I wonder if the manufacturer (PlayRuyi) has considered an +8 variant of this system - basically, add 8 GB of DDR4 for the CPU to the board, and reserve the entire 8 GB GDDR5 for the GPU; an additional $50-70 or so would be money I'd gladly spend for this. The lower latency DDR4 would likely even speed up the CPU, and prevent any drop in graphics performance I'd expect in the current unified memory setup when the CPU accesses larger chunks of the currently shared GDDR5.
csell - Thursday, September 20, 2018 - link
Nice idea with the 8 GB DDR4. I hope they will make an empty DDR4 DIMM socket in the next version of the motherboard.But I wonder what kind of Antivirus that will be possible?
abufrejoval - Wednesday, September 26, 2018 - link
I'd love to know if the SoC even has pins for extra RAM: Every pin costs extra so in a cost optimized SoC I don't see that happen: It's a single life cycle product I'd guess.Zingam - Friday, September 21, 2018 - link
Not enough RAM. Not enough RAM.abufrejoval - Wednesday, September 26, 2018 - link
I guess more RAM in a GPU design means an almost square cost curve as you have to increase everything to keep the performance balance.The real problem is that game engines assume DRAM is plentyful and cheap and at least 8GB for 2GB of GPU RAM. So here we have 2GB missing from a "typical configuration" and while games could be adapted for that, they currently are not: Chicken and eggs...
abufrejoval - Wednesday, September 26, 2018 - link
I am a bit worried about the custom drivers: Could turn out to be the most limiting factor in terms of obsolescence.I wonder if Linux drivers work and I'd just love to do HSA tests.
kartikguha - Friday, October 26, 2018 - link
Still waiting for that review...May be use 2400g and mid level cards for comparison (RX 580/GTX 1060?); no need to go for Vega M variants (Kaby G).
It will give us a preview of HW capabilities of next PS/Xbox.
badbanana - Thursday, January 17, 2019 - link
and it's still using the Von Neumann design right?looncraz - Thursday, January 17, 2019 - link
I want a picture of the APU...