The hardware construction of the Surface line has been solid but indeed their firmware leaves much to be desired. There have been sleep issues throughout my ownership of the Surface Pro 2 and 4, now my brother's Surface Book 2 also has screen detachment issues, all of them are software issues that are solved by reboots. There's really no excuse for Microsoft to screw up the drivers and firmware on their own devices.
you just forgot to add its MORE THAN ONE reboot in a row. Not something you want to do when you reach ANY DEVICE. (just 4 more reboots and I will be able to google something) especially that it gets much slower over time.
Must be great after paying so much for a SB2.... No thanks, my SP2 was the first and last surface I bought. Too many (HW+SW) issues. I've had better and more thought out PC tablet experience ten years prior, even with Vista and 7.
Pet peeve when I hear this. No computer, properly maintained, gets slower all the time. It’s metal and silicon- there is nothing “wearing out”. It’s just software “creep” slowly installing more and more things that want to have something running in the background. You have to be aggressive and defensive. Every software developer in the world for some reason has the arrogance to think you want their silly app that plays fart sounds running all the time with an icon in the Systray. Autoruns (a Microsoft tool) will list everything from every source. Being aggressive there will fix it 100% of the time. Keeping the file system clean will fix the rest of the times.
The end.
Bad drivers, I don’t know what to say about that. I have a dell XPS. They can’t get the dock drivers right. Sucks. It’ll become not bootable for a while if you try and put a usb thumb drive or device in the dock. But it doesn’t really hVe its own usb.
The Surface Book did have some firmware issues for about the first 3-4 months after launch. Steady improvements during that time period eventually netted a largely problem free product by the time I purchased one about 6 months after launch. I also have 3-6 weeks of hands on experience with the Surface Pro 3, Surface 3, and Surface Pro 4 that leaves me with little to complain about. I also have several clients that use Surface Pro 3/4 and have been happy with the product. I'm sorry to hear about your issues with the Surface Book 2. Past history leaves me hopeful that they will be resolved sooner rather than later, but I'll wait until then before recommending. Are you still having issues with the Surface Pro 4, or has that been resolved? Would be a relevant point to consider before recommending any more of them to clients as well.
Since you're wondering about whether to recommend Surface devices to your clients, I should probably also share the experience of other professional users around me. A few of my electrical/computer engineering professors who got the Surface Pro 3/4 said they've regretted it due to firmware bugs and Windows 10. The stylus could randomly stop being recognized requiring a reconnection of the battery (even with a new battery, a problem that I've shared), wake from sleep issues often require a restart when lectures were supposed to begin, etc. I know at least one professor who just lets his SP collect dust in his office after he has put real effort into using it, he has since gone back to using his previous Macbook and called the SP "an expensive paperweight". It's not only firmware issues that push them away of course, the whole ads everywhere on the OS nonsense is also irritating even though we all know how to turn them off. A couple of them said they will be getting Macbooks in the future. All these are coming from technologically competent professors, which really doesn't make a good case for recommending Surface devices.
Now to answer what you've asked about my SP4, it's now my girlfriend's main computer. Some months ago she complained about sleep issues still, so I've disabled sleep and it now hibernates instead. She doesn't use the stylus so I don't know whether new updates have been doing it any justice. I haven't heard of other problems about the SP4 from her, but she really uses it more like a traditional desktop so this is probably not a very relevant point of reference. I've personally moved to Linux on all of my devices, initially due to my displease towards the aggressive Windows update policies, eventually due to finding Linux a superior environment for coding and graduate research.
I'd recommend Surface devices to non-professionals who could make use of the digitizer and can't break away from the Windows ecosystem. However, from the experiences of my own and professors around me, I will not recommend Surface devices to working professionals who rely on an all time reliable laptop unless Microsoft can show major long-term improvements to their hardware stability.
This so much. Microsoft's inability to recognize and fix issues ended up with them loosing just about all their Education, SMB, and Enterprise hardware business that they were setup to easily walk through the door on.
Broken sleep/resume Waking up and melting down in peoples bags WiFi that cant figure out a 2.4/5ghz priority when they have the same SSID WiFi that cant figure out how to even work at all coming out of sleep Botched partnering on sales/imaging/warranty support
The real shame is that I've had Windows-based "penabled" tablets from 2004 that had zero pen problems. This was an "already solved" issue, and Microsoft managed to create new ones. Hell, my SP2 worked better with a 10-year-old pen than the one MS supplied it with originally.
I have a Surface Pro 4 and have had no sleep or power issues with it. It is easily the best computer I have ever owned in terms of usability and that includes iPads. When I travel I take 200Gb of movies on a micro SD compared to the ridiculous situation of no expandable storage on my iPad.
I can't tell you how many people I know who have had Surface 3 Pro's fail in spectacular fashion (one got so hot the screen melted inside the frame because it decided to wake up and do an update inside a backpack.)
And in almost every case, Microsoft, for free, swapped them out for a Surface 4 Pro because they seemingly knew the Surface 3 Pro's had issues that weren't fixed and weren't being fixed.
Sounds like some of the issues I've encountered with the Surface Pro 2, though never in a Surface Pro 3. A little upsetting to see in the Surface Pro 3 as it was largely an update to maintain the same performance, while dropping the power usage and heat output.
So can you charge it with the type-C connector, or you have to use the proprietary surface port? If i'm taking this on a trip I'm not going to haul along Microsoft's proprietary connector along with separate chargers for my phone/tablet.
Well it is faster as new Atoms are 4 instructions per clock OoO compared to the 3 & two one's of earlier generations,but it's not all that much faster as they didn't all that much improved feed. It's still significantly behind Intel's normal cores (would put it to the 60~65% performance metrics) & behind the upcoming ARM competition in the shape oh and A76 (which I would put to 75~85% performance metrics MHz per MHz).
Faster on synthetic benchmarks, maybe. In the real world, those Atom cores bring on a Windows lagfest compared to Core cores. I've compared an Atom Surface 3 with a Surface Pro 3 M3 and the latter model is much more responsive. It's probably down to faster single cores and higher GPU performance.
The latest Atom cores are decent but they're still way behind Intel's premium cores. I've been using Bay Trail and Cherry Trail Windows tablets for years as my main travel machines, I've gotten used to their slower performance but the average user won't be happy.
That explains a lot. Apollo Lake is quite a bit faster clock for clock than Bay Trail. I'd say 30-40% faster and Gemini Lake is another 20-30% faster on top of that. The lag you've experienced was most likely due to eMMC in the Surface 3. I'm currently using an Apollo Lake netbook with a real SSD and it runs quite acceptably well even with 4 GB of ram.
What? If i am not mistaken, the IPC of the Kaby Lake cores is almost 2 times that of Atom/Apollo Lake at the same process node and frequency. A 1.6 ghz 'Big' core will still be faster and snappier than a 2.5 GHZ small core.
If you have any links to back your statement asserting the performance of a 2.7 GHz goldmont core is in the ballpark of a 2.2 GHz Skylake, please share.
Maybe its because N5000 does not support LPDDR3. Or marketing concern (Atom etc. despite N5000 is faster even in single core performance) There are benchmarks for 4410Y, which is basically a 1.5Ghz version of 4415Y (as suggested by ark).
N5000 supports LPDDR4, which is even better than LPDDR3.
It seems Intel is very much downplaying the new cores. It almost feels like internal conflict since the "little" cores have been making steady and large progress over the years while the main team has been standstill since 2015.
Stop preaching the N5000... it's not Intel's best solution for tablets. The Core i3-7y30 (m) is still faster (30-50%) in the single-core performance. And although it only has x2 cores hyperthreaded, its still faster (1-10%) than the Atom's x4 cores no-hyperthreaded. I'm basing this off CineBench r15, which is an excellent benchmark that gives an idea of practical real-world performance not something dodgy like Geekbench.
Although I agree with you, the Pentium 4415y is not a good SoC, because it has been artificially handicapped by Intel to stay at a measly 1.6GHz. This processor really isn't much different to the Core M chipsets that can handily push over 3GHz.
So yeah, N5000 for PC/Tablets that cost <$500... Dualcore Core i-U's for $500-$1,000.... and Quad/Hexacore Core-i chips for >$1,000 should be the norm. Intel doesn't want to do that, but Ryzen is going to force their hand, and I as a consumer cannot wait.
Isn't the entire reason they "handicap" it is so it can keep a 6w TDP and be installed in a device with no active cooling thus making it thinner, lighter, and better battery life?
Not really. There's plenty of Windows Tablets out there with Core M SoC's that are passively cooled. And they can sustain frequencies of at least 1.7GHz, but most actually float around 2.1GHz. So its just Intel being Intel, and deliberately gimping products to reduce their value.
Funny that the latest Surface Pro runs a passively cooled i5, although I expect thermal throttling to seriously limit that model's performance under sustained load.
I guess accepting Intel's insane binning and gimping practices was the only way Microsoft could make a $400 Surface without resorting to Atom chips.
The display resolution of 1800 x 1200 is a downgrade from Surface 3's 1920 x 1280. I still have the Surface 3 but not really tempted to upgrade as I use it as a RDP client anyway.
1280 vertical lines vs 1080 vertical lines. You missed the 2 before the 8.
1920x1280 is 3:2 while 1800x1200 is also 3:2. 1800x1200 breaks down to 600 * 3 and 600 * 2, yet if the screen was 1920x1280 like the old surface 3 (non pro 3) it would be 640 * 3 and 640 * 2.
I feel MS created a notorious reputation of buggy premium products over the years. They created this great form factor no doubt, but I will not recommend getting a MS Surface product till they sort out their QC issue and the speed in which they rectify these serious bugs. I am keen to see how much they charge for this considering that Apple's SOC likely will outclass and outlast the Intel chip used here.
My personal theory is the terrible WiFi chip they have used from the beginning. Way too many wireless, and power/sleep/standby/connected standby/resume bugs/miracast. They have had literally 20+ product development cycles to correct their mistake and use a good chip but they remain committed to Marvell.
Fantastic, even beat my expectations. Certainly one advantage of not going down the "atom" route, from top the bottom the bandwidths available are a different level. The graphics are the other really noticeable factor. While the CPU clock will be an issue, for example what Intel/Apple managed with the latest version of their Y SOC for the 12" Macbook is a very rounded system, compared to previous generations or any SOC designed from the ground up for low power that is, Eg. Atom or ARM.
I dont care what anyone or whitepaper/benchmarks say, i havent had one of these ATOM/ARM SOCs that doesnt have that "Stuttering low bandwidth feel", coming quite obviously from graphics and IO but there is also more. I think Microsoft learnt from their Surface 3. Disappointing though, that extra ~800mhz Turbo Boost to say 2.4ghz would have made a HUGE difference to the web experience, kind of a deal breaker for me but will be almost good enough for most.
Still faster than anything with Goldmont cores though. Single threaded performance should be around 1800-2200 going by geekbench, which is admittedly not the best, but still provides a frame of reference.
It is easily good enough for browsing. Single threaded performance is significantly higher than its predecessor due to the use of Skylake cores, even with a low clock speed.
Yeah that's what I was thinking, The biggest question for me right now is how it handles lightweight games, like Stardew Valley. If it's fine, then this might be my next device.
I've had no issues playing games like the Need for Speed series and isometric RPGs from Bioware on an Atom Cherry Trail tablet. This Surface Go with its much faster SoC should have no problems handling lightweight games.
Stardew will be fine it runs on atom so kaby will munch this.
Generally speaking this should be good to play AAA titles from up to 2012, although not at native resolution. You'll need to know resolution down to the zio code of 720p but on a 10" screen that should be bearable. J
Something like this would be great if it just had like a 15inch screen. They have the GPU power for it. I would really love something like this, but i own a Galaxy Tab 10 inch and while its nice, it could easily go for a bigger screen without much problem.
I already have a PC and a laptop, so a third windows mobile thing is a no go for me, but for the design & spec. I would love to see a Chromebook with these spec & and prices. thought I will pay $100 to have a more powerful SoC and a little bit more internal storage. Ryzen APU + 256GB will be perfect.
I already gave a pc, but sold my laptop, so this device is a possibility for me. I have no interest in Chromebooks while Windows exists. I would pay more money for more but how much is more? The battery life would be awful with a Ryzen apu.
This s is DOA. The base iPad is cheaper, and works far better with just the touchscreen. This Surface needs a keyboard so $100 more. Education will stay with Chromebooks.
Someone looking for a mobile "computer" would probably be better served with a Lenovo Yoga ultrabook or a Surface book, or any other ultrabooks. The Microsoft "tablets" are terrible at being either tablets or notebooks. My iPad may be a toy, but somehow I use it more than a computer, it weights nothing and I can slip it into about any bag, including another laptop's bag.
This has a place but the upgrades cost too much. Once you start speccing up, you might as well get a Pro, esp with the base storage and the screen size.
I was close to getting one of these until it was pointed out that it lacks Kindle. That's a big drawback in a tablet form factor for me.
Some other sites are messaging that Microsoft is targeting this at Students/School and Enterprise. Not seeing how a product like this is meant to survive in a rough kid/school settings or the anemic power will hold up to multiple corporate security/firewall/encryption layers churning away constantly. But yeah I'd like to see how this performs compared to older bargain basement Atom devices.
Eh, eMMC is sufficient for budget hardware and performance has increased significantly since it was introduced. There are always going to be performance trade-offs in order to reach a low retail price though given the starting price of the Surface Go, it's debatable that eMMC was the right choice since it certainly sits a couple of rungs up the cost ladder over the cheapest tablets and laptops out there.
I call the 16:9 ones "short-screen" resolutions, because if you compare them to the older 4:3, they're just as wide. What happens is you lose all that vertical height, and all these bars and menus just take over the whole screen.
It's an interesting tablet that's dipping into my preferred screen size for a non-phone mobile. The price isn't too bad either. The potential for an awful WiFi NIC makes me want to wait for a few months to see what sort of reputation the Surface Go earns, but I'm not outright against this as my next Windows PC if I end up keeping a Windows box of some sort around for another few years.
Same with me. I like the 10-13" range. I was waiting on a deal to replace my aging 2010 Core 2 Duo MacBook Air with something like a Dell XPS 13, but the Surface Go has definitely piqued my interest.
I'm crazy enough to have replaced the same laptop as you had with a cheap Atom Windows tablet. I like these small tablets because they're very light, they can be charged off a battery back or a standard USB charger and they're handy when you don't need a keyboard. I pair mine with a folding Bluetooth keyboard for when I need to type a lot of stuff.
Microsoft "tablets" are bad as either tablets or notebooks regardless of the screen size. Just get a good ultrabook, and if you still want a tablet, get one of those disposable and lightweight android tablets to go with it.
Probably because they couldn't get a 1920x1280 10" panel made for an acceptable cost at the volume they expect these things to sell? Sorry, boring answer.
Wow. Years ago I bought a new Samsung Galaxy Tab S tablet with Quad HD resulution AMOLED 10.5 inch screen for 400 dollars. Now, you still believe that Microsoft couldn't pack a better screen in its ridiculously overpriced half-tablet because of the cost?
Unfortunately yes. I bought a Cherry Trail tablet with similar specs as the Surface Go for $250. Microsoft has to pay a lot more for these Pentium Gold chips compared to Atoms.
Probably because no one wants a tall skinny disgusting 9:16 aspect ratio tablet in portrait mode. Which is why Apple went with 4:3 / 3:4 (and competitors eventually followed) and Microsoft went with 3:2 / 2:3.
1920x1280 is also 3:2, that's the screen resolution the Surface 3 had. They kept pixel density the same but reduced the screen size with the Go. Would've been nice if they had used a higher resolution screen but cost and battery life would suffer.
So it's another device from Microsoft that claims to be a good tablet and a laptop, but is actually bad at both tasks. Make yourself a favor and buy a Lenovo Yoga ultrabook.
I can fit a 10" tablet with a folding keyboard in a small handbag. Can't do that with a laptop.
I've become a fan of Windows tablets because I can use Store apps like ebook readers and mobile Office in tablet mode, whereas desktop programs run decently well with the right display scaling settings. A small plastic stand lets me use the tablet in both portrait and landscape orientations, one thing I can't do with a laptop.
10" is too small for desktop apps, imho... and Microsoft store is still lacking. MS should motivate devs to - at least - bring all the features available on other platforms and classic desktop versions of same programs. Maybe by pushing on with developing their own Modern Apps - just as Surface hardware has influenced other OEMs to start making more premium laptops and tablets for Windows, pimped up Skype app could motivate Viber and other messenger devs to work harder on their apps... especially if more users would start returning to Skype... but instead, I cannot remember the last time Skype app has received meaningful update. So I can see the point why Viber dev is focusing more on other platforms' apps. Why is Cortana, by now, not available in every pat of the world?
I don't know if it is true, but it certainly looks like MS development teams are too lenient... if not downright lazy. Or is it down to incompetent management that makes them look a bit clueless and very disorganized? Or is MS still not focusing much/dedicating enough resources to consumer market?
The sub price point is key for Microsoft as it tries to turn its Surface business into a more serious challenger to other computer hardware makers. Cheaper devices can attract students who get comfortable with the technology and spread it to the workplace after they graduate. That strategy has helped Apple, which unveiled a iPad earlier this year for schools. Google has also seen some success with its low-cost Chromebook laptops.
Sadly, the Surface products do suffer from a fundamental flaw and that it still adheres to the x86 architecture. So much transistors are still used to convert the instruction set to faster RISC and you can do only so much to optimise the code. At some point, Microsoft should renew their efforts into porting full Win10 and apps compatibility to ARM64.
I can't wait to see ifixit's repairability score this planned obsolescence machine. Ifixit gave the 2017 MS Surface a score of 0, meaning it was impossible to repair without damaging it. https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+... It would be idiotic for any school to buy these devices for their students. A cracked screen, worn out battery or bad key on the keyboard means you have to throw it away, because it is literally impossible to repair. The only thing in its favor is the 2:3 screen, which makes it much easier to read documents with less scrolling than 16:9 screens.
I don't think you had any actual experience with the Surface 3. It's terrible, and everything I've seen so far from this puppy is that it's also terrible.
iOS and Android run well on phone hardware, and that's what tablets run on. I just can't picture Windows 10.... THE Windows 10 we all know, running properly on this hardware. This contrasts sharply with iPads and iPad Pros which run so smoothly year in and year out.
There's no scenario in which this device should have been made.
I have this bad taste from Surface 3 ... now one more go of bad taste, and I don't see the longterm benefit on this.
A much more reasonable plan would have been to release a good update for the $1000 price point, and take the current Surface Pro down to the $600 price range.
well.. it's amazing I can't define you about the features of the surface go using it I'would like to say about the surface go you can use it after that you'll forget about the macbook... http://wholestatus.com/
I believe that Internet education will soon surpass the classical one. It is much more convenient and less expensive than schooling. I already have special educational services like here https://tooly.io/ where there are a lot of educational papers and you can buy consultations and more. Online learning is available to every student from anywhere in the world. You can study at Harvard while living in Uganda. It's fine.
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Byte - Monday, July 9, 2018 - link
If by surprisingly good you mean surprisingly buggy, then sure, Surface is surprising for a first party hardware.samnish - Monday, July 9, 2018 - link
The hardware construction of the Surface line has been solid but indeed their firmware leaves much to be desired. There have been sleep issues throughout my ownership of the Surface Pro 2 and 4, now my brother's Surface Book 2 also has screen detachment issues, all of them are software issues that are solved by reboots. There's really no excuse for Microsoft to screw up the drivers and firmware on their own devices.deil - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
you just forgot to add its MORE THAN ONE reboot in a row. Not something you want to do when you reach ANY DEVICE. (just 4 more reboots and I will be able to google something) especially that it gets much slower over time.deepblue08 - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
I don't know what you install to make it slower over time. But my Surface Pro 3 is still going strong, and quite snappy.Holliday75 - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
Yeah I guess we're the lucky ones. We have a Surface 2 and (2) 3's in the house. Nary a problem.nagi603 - Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - link
Must be great after paying so much for a SB2.... No thanks, my SP2 was the first and last surface I bought. Too many (HW+SW) issues. I've had better and more thought out PC tablet experience ten years prior, even with Vista and 7.Altimmons - Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - link
Pet peeve when I hear this. No computer, properly maintained, gets slower all the time. It’s metal and silicon- there is nothing “wearing out”. It’s just software “creep” slowly installing more and more things that want to have something running in the background. You have to be aggressive and defensive. Every software developer in the world for some reason has the arrogance to think you want their silly app that plays fart sounds running all the time with an icon in the Systray.Autoruns (a Microsoft tool) will list everything from every source. Being aggressive there will fix it 100% of the time. Keeping the file system clean will fix the rest of the times.
The end.
Bad drivers, I don’t know what to say about that. I have a dell XPS. They can’t get the dock drivers right. Sucks. It’ll become not bootable for a while if you try and put a usb thumb drive or device in the dock. But it doesn’t really hVe its own usb.
BurntMyBacon - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
The Surface Book did have some firmware issues for about the first 3-4 months after launch. Steady improvements during that time period eventually netted a largely problem free product by the time I purchased one about 6 months after launch. I also have 3-6 weeks of hands on experience with the Surface Pro 3, Surface 3, and Surface Pro 4 that leaves me with little to complain about. I also have several clients that use Surface Pro 3/4 and have been happy with the product. I'm sorry to hear about your issues with the Surface Book 2. Past history leaves me hopeful that they will be resolved sooner rather than later, but I'll wait until then before recommending. Are you still having issues with the Surface Pro 4, or has that been resolved? Would be a relevant point to consider before recommending any more of them to clients as well.samnish - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
Since you're wondering about whether to recommend Surface devices to your clients, I should probably also share the experience of other professional users around me. A few of my electrical/computer engineering professors who got the Surface Pro 3/4 said they've regretted it due to firmware bugs and Windows 10. The stylus could randomly stop being recognized requiring a reconnection of the battery (even with a new battery, a problem that I've shared), wake from sleep issues often require a restart when lectures were supposed to begin, etc. I know at least one professor who just lets his SP collect dust in his office after he has put real effort into using it, he has since gone back to using his previous Macbook and called the SP "an expensive paperweight". It's not only firmware issues that push them away of course, the whole ads everywhere on the OS nonsense is also irritating even though we all know how to turn them off. A couple of them said they will be getting Macbooks in the future. All these are coming from technologically competent professors, which really doesn't make a good case for recommending Surface devices.Now to answer what you've asked about my SP4, it's now my girlfriend's main computer. Some months ago she complained about sleep issues still, so I've disabled sleep and it now hibernates instead. She doesn't use the stylus so I don't know whether new updates have been doing it any justice. I haven't heard of other problems about the SP4 from her, but she really uses it more like a traditional desktop so this is probably not a very relevant point of reference. I've personally moved to Linux on all of my devices, initially due to my displease towards the aggressive Windows update policies, eventually due to finding Linux a superior environment for coding and graduate research.
I'd recommend Surface devices to non-professionals who could make use of the digitizer and can't break away from the Windows ecosystem. However, from the experiences of my own and professors around me, I will not recommend Surface devices to working professionals who rely on an all time reliable laptop unless Microsoft can show major long-term improvements to their hardware stability.
Gunbuster - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
This so much. Microsoft's inability to recognize and fix issues ended up with them loosing just about all their Education, SMB, and Enterprise hardware business that they were setup to easily walk through the door on.Broken sleep/resume
Waking up and melting down in peoples bags
WiFi that cant figure out a 2.4/5ghz priority when they have the same SSID
WiFi that cant figure out how to even work at all coming out of sleep
Botched partnering on sales/imaging/warranty support
nagi603 - Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - link
The real shame is that I've had Windows-based "penabled" tablets from 2004 that had zero pen problems. This was an "already solved" issue, and Microsoft managed to create new ones. Hell, my SP2 worked better with a 10-year-old pen than the one MS supplied it with originally.Speedfriend - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
I have a Surface Pro 4 and have had no sleep or power issues with it. It is easily the best computer I have ever owned in terms of usability and that includes iPads. When I travel I take 200Gb of movies on a micro SD compared to the ridiculous situation of no expandable storage on my iPad.Samus - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
I can't tell you how many people I know who have had Surface 3 Pro's fail in spectacular fashion (one got so hot the screen melted inside the frame because it decided to wake up and do an update inside a backpack.)And in almost every case, Microsoft, for free, swapped them out for a Surface 4 Pro because they seemingly knew the Surface 3 Pro's had issues that weren't fixed and weren't being fixed.
grahad - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
Ironically Surface Pro 4s now have flickergate.BurntMyBacon - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
Sounds like some of the issues I've encountered with the Surface Pro 2, though never in a Surface Pro 3. A little upsetting to see in the Surface Pro 3 as it was largely an update to maintain the same performance, while dropping the power usage and heat output.Holliday75 - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
How long ago was this? I was thinking mine has an update due tonight.tamalero - Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - link
Weird, I've had my surface pro 3 for so many years and still no issues o_oI must be really lucky.
Jon Tseng - Friday, July 13, 2018 - link
Used a Surface 3 for over two years. Never had any problems w the firmware. That's all.agent2099 - Monday, July 9, 2018 - link
So can you charge it with the type-C connector, or you have to use the proprietary surface port? If i'm taking this on a trip I'm not going to haul along Microsoft's proprietary connector along with separate chargers for my phone/tablet.Brett Howse - Monday, July 9, 2018 - link
You can charge the Surface Book 2 over USB-C so likely this as well, but I haven't got a chance to try it out yet.North01 - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
"Surface Go can also charge through its USB-C port"https://youtu.be/hBxylZI4zl4?t=4m56s
IntelUser2000 - Monday, July 9, 2018 - link
It seems they opted for the Pentium 4415Y rather than the Pentium Silver N5000 because the HD Graphics 615 is better than the 605 in N5000.They made the tradeoff of using a slower CPU(in both ST and MT by 30% or more) to get better graphics.
Alistair - Monday, July 9, 2018 - link
Sorry, isn't the 4415Y almost twice the speed of the N5000 in single core performance? Core vs Atom.IntelUser2000 - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
Atom-based cores aren't that slow anymore. Goldmont is 30-40% faster than Silvermont, and Goldmont Plus is yet another 30-40% better.2.7GHz Goldmont Plus is quite comparable to 2.2GHz Skylake.
Alistair - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
I'll be looking forward to seeing that. I find it hard to believe honestly :)ZolaIII - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
Well it is faster as new Atoms are 4 instructions per clock OoO compared to the 3 & two one's of earlier generations,but it's not all that much faster as they didn't all that much improved feed. It's still significantly behind Intel's normal cores (would put it to the 60~65% performance metrics) & behind the upcoming ARM competition in the shape oh and A76 (which I would put to 75~85% performance metrics MHz per MHz).serendip - Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - link
Faster on synthetic benchmarks, maybe. In the real world, those Atom cores bring on a Windows lagfest compared to Core cores. I've compared an Atom Surface 3 with a Surface Pro 3 M3 and the latter model is much more responsive. It's probably down to faster single cores and higher GPU performance.The latest Atom cores are decent but they're still way behind Intel's premium cores. I've been using Bay Trail and Cherry Trail Windows tablets for years as my main travel machines, I've gotten used to their slower performance but the average user won't be happy.
Namisecond - Tuesday, July 24, 2018 - link
That explains a lot. Apollo Lake is quite a bit faster clock for clock than Bay Trail. I'd say 30-40% faster and Gemini Lake is another 20-30% faster on top of that. The lag you've experienced was most likely due to eMMC in the Surface 3. I'm currently using an Apollo Lake netbook with a real SSD and it runs quite acceptably well even with 4 GB of ram.LiverpoolFC5903 - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
What? If i am not mistaken, the IPC of the Kaby Lake cores is almost 2 times that of Atom/Apollo Lake at the same process node and frequency. A 1.6 ghz 'Big' core will still be faster and snappier than a 2.5 GHZ small core.If you have any links to back your statement asserting the performance of a 2.7 GHz goldmont core is in the ballpark of a 2.2 GHz Skylake, please share.
grahad - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
I want whatever he's smoking, cause it's good stuff.PassMark: https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/Intel-Pentium...
SaolDan - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
Thats a U series. The Surface go uses Y series.arashi - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
To be fair IU2K posted "2.7GHz Goldmont Plus is quite comparable to 2.2GHz Skylake.", Which is close enough to 2.3GHz of the U series.If you scale it to 1.6GHz it's only about ~5% behind in multicore.
Namisecond - Tuesday, July 24, 2018 - link
It sounds comparable to me.1173 vs 1317 in single core. That's like what, 11-12% difference? And that's with higher variability and lower average score on the N5000.
Eris_Floralia - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
A dual core 2.7Ghz GLM+ scores around 150cb in Cinebench, which is only comparable to a single Skylake core at 3.6Ghz.0iron - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
Compare to core m3-6Y30, how does this one fares?ViperV990 - Monday, July 9, 2018 - link
Looks like there's no TurboBoost for the CPU, so does that mean it will never go beyond 1.6GHz?IntelUser2000 - Monday, July 9, 2018 - link
No, that's why the Gemini-lake based N5000 will be significantly faster, even though Goldmont Plus is slower per clock.The GPU is 50-80% better, so there's that. I guess they figured the CPU is enough for the trade-off they had to make.
hyno111 - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
Maybe its because N5000 does not support LPDDR3. Or marketing concern (Atom etc. despite N5000 is faster even in single core performance)There are benchmarks for 4410Y, which is basically a 1.5Ghz version of 4415Y (as suggested by ark).
IntelUser2000 - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
N5000 supports LPDDR4, which is even better than LPDDR3.It seems Intel is very much downplaying the new cores. It almost feels like internal conflict since the "little" cores have been making steady and large progress over the years while the main team has been standstill since 2015.
Kan9al - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
Stop preaching the N5000... it's not Intel's best solution for tablets.The Core i3-7y30 (m) is still faster (30-50%) in the single-core performance. And although it only has x2 cores hyperthreaded, its still faster (1-10%) than the Atom's x4 cores no-hyperthreaded. I'm basing this off CineBench r15, which is an excellent benchmark that gives an idea of practical real-world performance not something dodgy like Geekbench.
Although I agree with you, the Pentium 4415y is not a good SoC, because it has been artificially handicapped by Intel to stay at a measly 1.6GHz. This processor really isn't much different to the Core M chipsets that can handily push over 3GHz.
So yeah, N5000 for PC/Tablets that cost <$500... Dualcore Core i-U's for $500-$1,000.... and Quad/Hexacore Core-i chips for >$1,000 should be the norm. Intel doesn't want to do that, but Ryzen is going to force their hand, and I as a consumer cannot wait.
Holliday75 - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
Isn't the entire reason they "handicap" it is so it can keep a 6w TDP and be installed in a device with no active cooling thus making it thinner, lighter, and better battery life?Kan9al - Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - link
Not really.There's plenty of Windows Tablets out there with Core M SoC's that are passively cooled. And they can sustain frequencies of at least 1.7GHz, but most actually float around 2.1GHz. So its just Intel being Intel, and deliberately gimping products to reduce their value.
serendip - Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - link
Funny that the latest Surface Pro runs a passively cooled i5, although I expect thermal throttling to seriously limit that model's performance under sustained load.I guess accepting Intel's insane binning and gimping practices was the only way Microsoft could make a $400 Surface without resorting to Atom chips.
shabby - Monday, July 9, 2018 - link
The netbook lives on, thanks microsoft!akyp - Monday, July 9, 2018 - link
The display resolution of 1800 x 1200 is a downgrade from Surface 3's 1920 x 1280. I still have the Surface 3 but not really tempted to upgrade as I use it as a RDP client anyway.IntelUser2000 - Monday, July 9, 2018 - link
They did that because Surface uses a ratio of 3:2, and 1920x1080 is the widely used 16:9.Roland00Address - Monday, July 9, 2018 - link
1280 vertical lines vs 1080 vertical lines. You missed the 2 before the 8.1920x1280 is 3:2 while 1800x1200 is also 3:2. 1800x1200 breaks down to 600 * 3 and 600 * 2, yet if the screen was 1920x1280 like the old surface 3 (non pro 3) it would be 640 * 3 and 640 * 2.
Brett Howse - Monday, July 9, 2018 - link
It's actually 3 Pixels Per Inch more dense than the Surface 3 because the display is a bit smaller.Alistair - Monday, July 9, 2018 - link
This looks like a strong competitor to the entry level iPad. I'm waiting on the 7nm iPad pro though...UtilityMax - Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - link
Not. This is a bad tablet, and therefore can't compete with iPad.watzupken - Monday, July 9, 2018 - link
I feel MS created a notorious reputation of buggy premium products over the years. They created this great form factor no doubt, but I will not recommend getting a MS Surface product till they sort out their QC issue and the speed in which they rectify these serious bugs. I am keen to see how much they charge for this considering that Apple's SOC likely will outclass and outlast the Intel chip used here.Gunbuster - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
My personal theory is the terrible WiFi chip they have used from the beginning. Way too many wireless, and power/sleep/standby/connected standby/resume bugs/miracast. They have had literally 20+ product development cycles to correct their mistake and use a good chip but they remain committed to Marvell.danielfranklin - Monday, July 9, 2018 - link
Very interesting product, i would have expected/wanted a CPU bump for the 8GB models though, 1.6ghz, even on Kaby is not great for web browsing.I would also like to confirm that the 8GB models actually use a SATA interface on their "SSD", no one likes eMMC...
Brett Howse - Monday, July 9, 2018 - link
They just said SSD on the 128/256 models. We're unsure yet if it's SATA or PCIe.North01 - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
"up to a 256 GB NVMe SSD"https://youtu.be/hBxylZI4zl4?t=2m43s
Brett Howse - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
Awesome thanks for the link!danielfranklin - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
Fantastic, even beat my expectations.Certainly one advantage of not going down the "atom" route, from top the bottom the bandwidths available are a different level.
The graphics are the other really noticeable factor.
While the CPU clock will be an issue, for example what Intel/Apple managed with the latest version of their Y SOC for the 12" Macbook is a very rounded system, compared to previous generations or any SOC designed from the ground up for low power that is, Eg. Atom or ARM.
I dont care what anyone or whitepaper/benchmarks say, i havent had one of these ATOM/ARM SOCs that doesnt have that "Stuttering low bandwidth feel", coming quite obviously from graphics and IO but there is also more.
I think Microsoft learnt from their Surface 3. Disappointing though, that extra ~800mhz Turbo Boost to say 2.4ghz would have made a HUGE difference to the web experience, kind of a deal breaker for me but will be almost good enough for most.
LiverpoolFC5903 - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
Still faster than anything with Goldmont cores though. Single threaded performance should be around 1800-2200 going by geekbench, which is admittedly not the best, but still provides a frame of reference.Namisecond - Tuesday, July 24, 2018 - link
Um, Goldmont+ in the N5000 does 1900-2200 single-threaded in Geekbench 4:http://browser.geekbench.com/v4/cpu/search?q=N5000
Xinn3r - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
Is the CPU not even good enough for browsing?LiverpoolFC5903 - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
It is easily good enough for browsing. Single threaded performance is significantly higher than its predecessor due to the use of Skylake cores, even with a low clock speed.Xinn3r - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
Yeah that's what I was thinking, The biggest question for me right now is how it handles lightweight games, like Stardew Valley. If it's fine, then this might be my next device.serendip - Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - link
I've had no issues playing games like the Need for Speed series and isometric RPGs from Bioware on an Atom Cherry Trail tablet. This Surface Go with its much faster SoC should have no problems handling lightweight games.Jon Tseng - Friday, July 13, 2018 - link
Stardew will be fine it runs on atom so kaby will munch this.Generally speaking this should be good to play AAA titles from up to 2012, although not at native resolution. You'll need to know resolution down to the zio code of 720p but on a 10" screen that should be bearable. J
Chaitanya - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
I hope unlike previous surface's this one is easier to service.Xinn3r - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
I doubt it, these machined bodies are hard to take apart.Namisecond - Tuesday, July 24, 2018 - link
Knowing MS, all the parts are probably embedded in a block of glue...imaheadcase - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
Something like this would be great if it just had like a 15inch screen. They have the GPU power for it. I would really love something like this, but i own a Galaxy Tab 10 inch and while its nice, it could easily go for a bigger screen without much problem.damianrobertjones - Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - link
Then someone would want a 20" version. An 18" version, as well as a 14" version.UtilityMax - Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - link
Microsoft make lousy "tablets", so having bigger screen size wouldn't help it.TheWereCat - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
Would this be a really good drawing tablet with pen considering the price?damianrobertjones - Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - link
yes, no, maybe. Not many will know as it's not available yet. Maybe wait for the reviews.Xajel - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
I already have a PC and a laptop, so a third windows mobile thing is a no go for me, but for the design & spec. I would love to see a Chromebook with these spec & and prices. thought I will pay $100 to have a more powerful SoC and a little bit more internal storage. Ryzen APU + 256GB will be perfect.damianrobertjones - Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - link
I already gave a pc, but sold my laptop, so this device is a possibility for me. I have no interest in Chromebooks while Windows exists. I would pay more money for more but how much is more? The battery life would be awful with a Ryzen apu.Jumangi - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
This s is DOA. The base iPad is cheaper, and works far better with just the touchscreen. This Surface needs a keyboard so $100 more. Education will stay with Chromebooks.Too little too late Microsoft.
Speedfriend - Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - link
But this is a computer and an iPad is well just a toy...UtilityMax - Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - link
Someone looking for a mobile "computer" would probably be better served with a Lenovo Yoga ultrabook or a Surface book, or any other ultrabooks. The Microsoft "tablets" are terrible at being either tablets or notebooks. My iPad may be a toy, but somehow I use it more than a computer, it weights nothing and I can slip it into about any bag, including another laptop's bag.nico_mach - Thursday, July 19, 2018 - link
This has a place but the upgrades cost too much. Once you start speccing up, you might as well get a Pro, esp with the base storage and the screen size.I was close to getting one of these until it was pointed out that it lacks Kindle. That's a big drawback in a tablet form factor for me.
Gunbuster - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
Some other sites are messaging that Microsoft is targeting this at Students/School and Enterprise. Not seeing how a product like this is meant to survive in a rough kid/school settings or the anemic power will hold up to multiple corporate security/firewall/encryption layers churning away constantly. But yeah I'd like to see how this performs compared to older bargain basement Atom devices.And eMMC... Let it die.
Gunbuster - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
PS wondering if the worlds worst WiFi chip (Marvel Avastar) is back for round 24 of making Microsoft ecosystem products terrible?PeachNCream - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
Eh, eMMC is sufficient for budget hardware and performance has increased significantly since it was introduced. There are always going to be performance trade-offs in order to reach a low retail price though given the starting price of the Surface Go, it's debatable that eMMC was the right choice since it certainly sits a couple of rungs up the cost ladder over the cheapest tablets and laptops out there.Dr. Swag - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
How much does the update cover cost?Doroga - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
I like how Microsoft is finally pushing industry from geeky legacy resolutions like FullHD 1920*1080 or Apple 2304*14401800*1200 and especially 3000*2000 are neat
UtilityMax - Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - link
Geeks (the real ones) never liked the BS wide-screen resolutions like the Full HD, HD, or 4K.mkozakewich - Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - link
I call the 16:9 ones "short-screen" resolutions, because if you compare them to the older 4:3, they're just as wide. What happens is you lose all that vertical height, and all these bars and menus just take over the whole screen.PeachNCream - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
It's an interesting tablet that's dipping into my preferred screen size for a non-phone mobile. The price isn't too bad either. The potential for an awful WiFi NIC makes me want to wait for a few months to see what sort of reputation the Surface Go earns, but I'm not outright against this as my next Windows PC if I end up keeping a Windows box of some sort around for another few years.ZipSpeed - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
Same with me. I like the 10-13" range. I was waiting on a deal to replace my aging 2010 Core 2 Duo MacBook Air with something like a Dell XPS 13, but the Surface Go has definitely piqued my interest.serendip - Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - link
I'm crazy enough to have replaced the same laptop as you had with a cheap Atom Windows tablet. I like these small tablets because they're very light, they can be charged off a battery back or a standard USB charger and they're handy when you don't need a keyboard. I pair mine with a folding Bluetooth keyboard for when I need to type a lot of stuff.Jon Tseng - Friday, July 13, 2018 - link
Same here. I run w a Lenovo Yoga book and an MS folding keyboard. It's great for on the go...UtilityMax - Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - link
Microsoft "tablets" are bad as either tablets or notebooks regardless of the screen size. Just get a good ultrabook, and if you still want a tablet, get one of those disposable and lightweight android tablets to go with it.Adityaseven7 - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
1920x1280 would've been perfect for watching videos... intentionally handicapped at 1800x1080...y u do this Microsoft?drothgery - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
Probably because they couldn't get a 1920x1280 10" panel made for an acceptable cost at the volume they expect these things to sell?Sorry, boring answer.
UtilityMax - Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - link
Wow. Years ago I bought a new Samsung Galaxy Tab S tablet with Quad HD resulution AMOLED 10.5 inch screen for 400 dollars. Now, you still believe that Microsoft couldn't pack a better screen in its ridiculously overpriced half-tablet because of the cost?mkozakewich - Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - link
Intel chips take loads of moolah.serendip - Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - link
Unfortunately yes. I bought a Cherry Trail tablet with similar specs as the Surface Go for $250. Microsoft has to pay a lot more for these Pentium Gold chips compared to Atoms.blackcrayon - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
Probably because no one wants a tall skinny disgusting 9:16 aspect ratio tablet in portrait mode. Which is why Apple went with 4:3 / 3:4 (and competitors eventually followed) and Microsoft went with 3:2 / 2:3.lazybum131 - Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - link
1920x1280 is also 3:2, that's the screen resolution the Surface 3 had. They kept pixel density the same but reduced the screen size with the Go. Would've been nice if they had used a higher resolution screen but cost and battery life would suffer.damianrobertjones - Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - link
It's '1800x1200', 3:2 aspect' ?UtilityMax - Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - link
So it's another device from Microsoft that claims to be a good tablet and a laptop, but is actually bad at both tasks. Make yourself a favor and buy a Lenovo Yoga ultrabook.serendip - Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - link
I can fit a 10" tablet with a folding keyboard in a small handbag. Can't do that with a laptop.I've become a fan of Windows tablets because I can use Store apps like ebook readers and mobile Office in tablet mode, whereas desktop programs run decently well with the right display scaling settings. A small plastic stand lets me use the tablet in both portrait and landscape orientations, one thing I can't do with a laptop.
nikon133 - Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - link
10" is too small for desktop apps, imho... and Microsoft store is still lacking. MS should motivate devs to - at least - bring all the features available on other platforms and classic desktop versions of same programs. Maybe by pushing on with developing their own Modern Apps - just as Surface hardware has influenced other OEMs to start making more premium laptops and tablets for Windows, pimped up Skype app could motivate Viber and other messenger devs to work harder on their apps... especially if more users would start returning to Skype... but instead, I cannot remember the last time Skype app has received meaningful update. So I can see the point why Viber dev is focusing more on other platforms' apps. Why is Cortana, by now, not available in every pat of the world?I don't know if it is true, but it certainly looks like MS development teams are too lenient... if not downright lazy. Or is it down to incompetent management that makes them look a bit clueless and very disorganized? Or is MS still not focusing much/dedicating enough resources to consumer market?
Hines357 - Thursday, July 12, 2018 - link
The sub price point is key for Microsoft as it tries to turn its Surface business into a more serious challenger to other computer hardware makers. Cheaper devices can attract students who get comfortable with the technology and spread it to the workplace after they graduate. That strategy has helped Apple, which unveiled a iPad earlier this year for schools. Google has also seen some success with its low-cost Chromebook laptops.Gunbuster - Saturday, July 14, 2018 - link
They had their foot in the door for SMB and Enterprise. Fell flat on their face. Slim chance anyone in IT is going to give them a redo.nukunukoo - Thursday, July 12, 2018 - link
Sadly, the Surface products do suffer from a fundamental flaw and that it still adheres to the x86 architecture. So much transistors are still used to convert the instruction set to faster RISC and you can do only so much to optimise the code. At some point, Microsoft should renew their efforts into porting full Win10 and apps compatibility to ARM64.Outlander_04 - Saturday, July 14, 2018 - link
That was called Windows RT, and it suckedamosbatto - Sunday, July 29, 2018 - link
I can't wait to see ifixit's repairability score this planned obsolescence machine. Ifixit gave the 2017 MS Surface a score of 0, meaning it was impossible to repair without damaging it.https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+...
It would be idiotic for any school to buy these devices for their students. A cracked screen, worn out battery or bad key on the keyboard means you have to throw it away, because it is literally impossible to repair. The only thing in its favor is the 2:3 screen, which makes it much easier to read documents with less scrolling than 16:9 screens.
gochichi - Friday, August 3, 2018 - link
I don't think you had any actual experience with the Surface 3. It's terrible, and everything I've seen so far from this puppy is that it's also terrible.iOS and Android run well on phone hardware, and that's what tablets run on. I just can't picture Windows 10.... THE Windows 10 we all know, running properly on this hardware. This contrasts sharply with iPads and iPad Pros which run so smoothly year in and year out.
There's no scenario in which this device should have been made.
I have this bad taste from Surface 3 ... now one more go of bad taste, and I don't see the longterm benefit on this.
A much more reasonable plan would have been to release a good update for the $1000 price point, and take the current Surface Pro down to the $600 price range.
zllow1 - Saturday, August 4, 2018 - link
nice http://zillowrentalmanager.org/chitendra - Saturday, October 13, 2018 - link
well.. it's amazing I can't define you about the features of the surface go using it I'would like to say about the surface go you can use it after that you'll forget about the macbook...http://wholestatus.com/
lillylothian - Saturday, April 27, 2019 - link
I believe that Internet education will soon surpass the classical one. It is much more convenient and less expensive than schooling. I already have special educational services like here https://tooly.io/ where there are a lot of educational papers and you can buy consultations and more. Online learning is available to every student from anywhere in the world. You can study at Harvard while living in Uganda. It's fine.