Glad 14nm is finally getting under control. I am debating about picking up one of their next gen 14nm chips (cannonlake?) next year. But then again, my 'ol 2600 is plugging right along... I may just hang on to it until a workload comes along that it finally can't do.
Honestly outside of a handful of specialized tasks, a 2600 should still see a lot of life left in it. If you were to upgrade, I would say do so for pretty much every reason except CPU performance (e.g. upgrading MB, RAM, and all the next gen controllers and whatnot)
It wasn't delayed, it's the new Intel Tick-Tock cycle to milk the cow to the fullest. 14nm: Broadwell, Skylake, Kabylake 10nm: Cannonlake, Icelake, Tigerlake Basically the first 7nm processor from Intel will arrive in 2020.
it's a technological hurdle it's not just about milking the cow. Also most people do not upgrade every generation now and they will slow down even more if there is no significant progress, so I don't see the milking.
-- it's a technological hurdle it's not just about milking the cow.
back in the goode olde dayes of the Wintel monopoly, M$'s ever more bloated OS and Office drove businesses, and their home workers, to upgrade machines in lock-step with them. gamers are a very much smaller set, so the heady days of monopolies' rent haven't returned. a small finger in the leaking dike of "good enough" is the best they can hope for.
MSFT will stop the support for the older CPU models, so now upgrades will be forced not by CPU capabilities but software support and drivers availability. 32nm should be obsolete pretty soon, and 22nm chips might come under sweeping backward motion in the next couple of years.
When MSFT stops supporting a processor, that does NOT mean that processor will no longer work. What they mean is they are not making any specific optimizations for those older processor anymore.
It's like with Skylake only supported on Windows 10 -- that means only windows 10 gets speed shift and special support for Skylake, NOT that skylake will not work on older OS's. It may be difficult to find drivers but you can still use older versions of windows. Hell you could still run windows 3.11 on Skylake if you wanted...
Skylake support is *not* limited to Win10 nor is HWP (Speed Shift). Windows 8.1 supports HWP as well and has Skylake CPU drivers.
Furthermore HWP is *not* enabled for Desktop Skylake CPUs in any Windows version, not even in Win10. It is only enabled for Mobile Skylake CPUs but not for e.g. the regular i7-6700(K) ones. Which means that Win10 currently doesn't give you any advantage whatsoever if you've got a Desktop Skylake system.
This is absolutely true. They are not "milking the cow" to any significant extent. 10 nm still has hurdles that haven't been overcome. It might come out on time (or based on the next estimate after any previous delays), or might be delayed further.
As an enthusiast I keep wanting to upgrade just for the fun of it, but like you my 2600k is humming right along at 4.7ghz and there's not a single thing I can throw at it that makes it feel inadequate. It's a genuine first world problem.
Performance gains have accumulated pretty decently over the last few gens... Obviously you won't see any of it on GPU bound games but for anyone that does anything intensive outside of gaming a jump up from Sandy Bridge can be well justified.
That being said, if it was for the performance bump alone (on photo work and light video editing) I probably wouldn't have made the jump... But I gained HT (had a 2500K) as well as an M.2 slot (which I'm using), USB 3.1 / Type C, etc.
Intel really nailed it with Sandy Bridge. Nehalem started the movement but Sandy was the icing on the cake. Both platforms are undeniably still relevant because it's been ho hum ever since, even in the HEPC sector. The 6 core triple channel Nehalem's on x58 only lack 20% of the clock for clock IPC of the Haswell-E CPU's and the only real platform advantage is PCI-E 3.0 with more lanes...and perhaps USB 3.0 which is easily added with an add on card.
I don't blame anybody for holding onto Sandy Bridge, unless they are ultra sensitive about their power bill or battery life in a laptop.
Obviously you will be able to use Kaby lake and future CPUs on previous versions of Windows.
What that is saying is that any newer CPU instruction sets will not be supported so you will not be getting the benefit that they may bring, you will still benefit from the architectural advancements and improvements to current instruction sets.
Honestly I am amazed that anyone would think that newer processors just flat out would not work in older versions of Windows like MS would intentionally stop them from working. That would be commercial suicide.
That's like expecting you'd get everything from your shiny new NVMe super turbo SSD 2.5GBps in... Windows XP. I am not suprised Microsoft doesn't want to spend too much effort on backporting new things in old OSes. Not mentioning architectural issues (old systems simply were not designed to something like that), nobody wants to do that, devs punished with the glorious tasks of backporting the new thing in 'that old piece of ....' get frustrated and are more tempted to change job, not to mention how much resources it costs.
They will probably, if history repeats itself, focus on the iGPU more than IPC. So in other words, nothing for gamers or business machines. I suspect if VR takes off, Intel is going to put serious muscle into graphics.
I thought the Haswell-E chip being numbered 5820K was weird because all the other Haswells were 4xxx, but a quick Wikipedia search shows that they've been doing this off-by-one thing ever since Sandy Bridge (2xxx for normal desktop, 38xx and 39xx for HEDT). Who knows if they'll continue this for Broadwell-E and Skylake-E (6820K, 7820K?).
Yes the HEDT platform has always been 1 digit higher for some reason, and I am sure they will continue that until they move to an entirely new naming scheme.
I got in while prices were still reasonable. Paid $329 for my 6700k with motherboard back on 11/9/2015 at microcenter. Even got $20 off a 512GB evo 850. Now I'm waiting to get the 1080 at $599.
You could get the 6700K for a reasonable price early on if you played ball or gamed the system (as far as Newegg's combos), that's what I ended up doing, if I had to wait this long I would've just bought a 5820K.
Can anyone please explain to me the reasoning/rational behind fabs continuing to print the die(mask) all the way to the edge of the wafer even though they are incomplete/non-functional?
cheaper to make, wafers are round and after all, they are printing these and the extra amount of material is trivial. anytime you do patterning, your gonna cover the whole canvas.
Pretty sure they use the same mask for the edges as the center of the wafer, so on the edges the mask still "exposes" parts of the silicon that aren't there. Avoiding this would probably require them to make extra masks for the edges, which would be expensive.
BTW, my local Microcenter in Michigan has it listed now for $309.99 for the 6700K. While you might not be local to the Microcenter in Michigan, point is - you might want to check. ;) Have fun.
Am I the only one who seems to recall that the MSRPs for the 6600k and 6700k were like $329 and $229 around 9 months ago? That info seems to have disappeared and been replaced by "recommended price" or a figure around $20 higher in recent months. The whole artificially constrained supply and $100 higher effective retail price was some serious BS. Retail outlets should be prevented by law for selling these things for more than the initial MSRP to prevent this garbage in the future.
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CaedenV - Friday, May 20, 2016 - link
Glad 14nm is finally getting under control. I am debating about picking up one of their next gen 14nm chips (cannonlake?) next year. But then again, my 'ol 2600 is plugging right along... I may just hang on to it until a workload comes along that it finally can't do.inighthawki - Friday, May 20, 2016 - link
Cannonlake was delayed and Kaby Lake is the new successor to Skylake.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaby_Lake
Honestly outside of a handful of specialized tasks, a 2600 should still see a lot of life left in it. If you were to upgrade, I would say do so for pretty much every reason except CPU performance (e.g. upgrading MB, RAM, and all the next gen controllers and whatnot)
revanchrist - Friday, May 20, 2016 - link
It wasn't delayed, it's the new Intel Tick-Tock cycle to milk the cow to the fullest.14nm: Broadwell, Skylake, Kabylake
10nm: Cannonlake, Icelake, Tigerlake
Basically the first 7nm processor from Intel will arrive in 2020.
Murloc - Friday, May 20, 2016 - link
it's a technological hurdle it's not just about milking the cow.Also most people do not upgrade every generation now and they will slow down even more if there is no significant progress, so I don't see the milking.
FunBunny2 - Saturday, May 21, 2016 - link
-- it's a technological hurdle it's not just about milking the cow.back in the goode olde dayes of the Wintel monopoly, M$'s ever more bloated OS and Office drove businesses, and their home workers, to upgrade machines in lock-step with them. gamers are a very much smaller set, so the heady days of monopolies' rent haven't returned. a small finger in the leaking dike of "good enough" is the best they can hope for.
Vlad_Da_Great - Sunday, May 22, 2016 - link
MSFT will stop the support for the older CPU models, so now upgrades will be forced not by CPU capabilities but software support and drivers availability.32nm should be obsolete pretty soon, and 22nm chips might come under sweeping backward motion in the next couple of years.
extide - Monday, May 23, 2016 - link
When MSFT stops supporting a processor, that does NOT mean that processor will no longer work. What they mean is they are not making any specific optimizations for those older processor anymore.It's like with Skylake only supported on Windows 10 -- that means only windows 10 gets speed shift and special support for Skylake, NOT that skylake will not work on older OS's. It may be difficult to find drivers but you can still use older versions of windows. Hell you could still run windows 3.11 on Skylake if you wanted...
ITDoe - Thursday, June 16, 2016 - link
Skylake support is *not* limited to Win10 nor is HWP (Speed Shift). Windows 8.1 supports HWP as well and has Skylake CPU drivers.Furthermore HWP is *not* enabled for Desktop Skylake CPUs in any Windows version, not even in Win10. It is only enabled for Mobile Skylake CPUs but not for e.g. the regular i7-6700(K) ones. Which means that Win10 currently doesn't give you any advantage whatsoever if you've got a Desktop Skylake system.
barleyguy - Sunday, May 22, 2016 - link
This is absolutely true. They are not "milking the cow" to any significant extent. 10 nm still has hurdles that haven't been overcome. It might come out on time (or based on the next estimate after any previous delays), or might be delayed further.Gigaplex - Monday, May 23, 2016 - link
It's the new Tick-Tock-Tock cycle because of the continuous delays.Hubb1e - Saturday, May 21, 2016 - link
As an enthusiast I keep wanting to upgrade just for the fun of it, but like you my 2600k is humming right along at 4.7ghz and there's not a single thing I can throw at it that makes it feel inadequate. It's a genuine first world problem.Impulses - Saturday, May 21, 2016 - link
Performance gains have accumulated pretty decently over the last few gens... Obviously you won't see any of it on GPU bound games but for anyone that does anything intensive outside of gaming a jump up from Sandy Bridge can be well justified.That being said, if it was for the performance bump alone (on photo work and light video editing) I probably wouldn't have made the jump... But I gained HT (had a 2500K) as well as an M.2 slot (which I'm using), USB 3.1 / Type C, etc.
Samus - Sunday, May 22, 2016 - link
Intel really nailed it with Sandy Bridge. Nehalem started the movement but Sandy was the icing on the cake. Both platforms are undeniably still relevant because it's been ho hum ever since, even in the HEPC sector. The 6 core triple channel Nehalem's on x58 only lack 20% of the clock for clock IPC of the Haswell-E CPU's and the only real platform advantage is PCI-E 3.0 with more lanes...and perhaps USB 3.0 which is easily added with an add on card.I don't blame anybody for holding onto Sandy Bridge, unless they are ultra sensitive about their power bill or battery life in a laptop.
Gunbuster - Friday, May 20, 2016 - link
$320 at micro centerEden-K121D - Friday, May 20, 2016 - link
What do think will kaby lake bring over skylakegammaray - Friday, May 20, 2016 - link
"On January 15, 2016, Microsoft announced that Windows 10 would be the only supported Windows platform for Kaby Lake processors.[9]" from wikifor real? i will keep my 4770k for a long time i guess.
Murloc - Friday, May 20, 2016 - link
or, you know, just use linux if you're so worried about teh spyware, and just use W10 for the programs that need it.jimbo2779 - Friday, May 20, 2016 - link
Obviously you will be able to use Kaby lake and future CPUs on previous versions of Windows.What that is saying is that any newer CPU instruction sets will not be supported so you will not be getting the benefit that they may bring, you will still benefit from the architectural advancements and improvements to current instruction sets.
Honestly I am amazed that anyone would think that newer processors just flat out would not work in older versions of Windows like MS would intentionally stop them from working. That would be commercial suicide.
HollyDOL - Monday, May 23, 2016 - link
That's like expecting you'd get everything from your shiny new NVMe super turbo SSD 2.5GBps in... Windows XP. I am not suprised Microsoft doesn't want to spend too much effort on backporting new things in old OSes. Not mentioning architectural issues (old systems simply were not designed to something like that), nobody wants to do that, devs punished with the glorious tasks of backporting the new thing in 'that old piece of ....' get frustrated and are more tempted to change job, not to mention how much resources it costs.yuhong - Friday, May 20, 2016 - link
To be honest I think you are better off staying with Haswell/Broadwell if you still need Win7 anyway.Samus - Sunday, May 22, 2016 - link
They will probably, if history repeats itself, focus on the iGPU more than IPC. So in other words, nothing for gamers or business machines. I suspect if VR takes off, Intel is going to put serious muscle into graphics.Gigaplex - Monday, May 23, 2016 - link
Business machines are actually likely to get some benefit from the iGPU, since they're more likely to use it than gaming machines.jasonelmore - Friday, May 20, 2016 - link
Skylake E is coming later this year, not Broadwell E.. Look at the roadmapkilleak - Saturday, May 21, 2016 - link
Broadwell-E is going to be released in August (as HEDT, I think the Xeons are already on the market), not sure Skylake-E will make it this year.stephenbrooks - Saturday, May 21, 2016 - link
I thought the Haswell-E chip being numbered 5820K was weird because all the other Haswells were 4xxx, but a quick Wikipedia search shows that they've been doing this off-by-one thing ever since Sandy Bridge (2xxx for normal desktop, 38xx and 39xx for HEDT). Who knows if they'll continue this for Broadwell-E and Skylake-E (6820K, 7820K?).extide - Monday, May 23, 2016 - link
Yes the HEDT platform has always been 1 digit higher for some reason, and I am sure they will continue that until they move to an entirely new naming scheme.cdmoore74 - Friday, May 20, 2016 - link
I got in while prices were still reasonable. Paid $329 for my 6700k with motherboard back on 11/9/2015 at microcenter. Even got $20 off a 512GB evo 850.Now I'm waiting to get the 1080 at $599.
Impulses - Saturday, May 21, 2016 - link
You could get the 6700K for a reasonable price early on if you played ball or gamed the system (as far as Newegg's combos), that's what I ended up doing, if I had to wait this long I would've just bought a 5820K.SunnyNW - Friday, May 20, 2016 - link
Can anyone please explain to me the reasoning/rational behind fabs continuing to print the die(mask) all the way to the edge of the wafer even though they are incomplete/non-functional?jasonelmore - Saturday, May 21, 2016 - link
cheaper to make, wafers are round and after all, they are printing these and the extra amount of material is trivial. anytime you do patterning, your gonna cover the whole canvas.jcbenten - Saturday, May 21, 2016 - link
Also helps prevent buildup of films on the edge of the wafer that can split off and leave crap all over the wafer. Wafer edge control and be a PITA.saratoga4 - Sunday, May 22, 2016 - link
Pretty sure they use the same mask for the edges as the center of the wafer, so on the edges the mask still "exposes" parts of the silicon that aren't there. Avoiding this would probably require them to make extra masks for the edges, which would be expensive.saratoga4 - Sunday, May 22, 2016 - link
http://vlsicad.ucsd.edu/Publications/Journals/j104...Figure 1 shows why.
agentbb007 - Saturday, May 21, 2016 - link
Got my i7-6700K for $359.99 from Newegg on 8/28/2015, guess I got lucky.alpha754293 - Monday, May 23, 2016 - link
Didn't realise that I lucked out when I bought my 6700K on Pi Day from Microcenter for $314.15. :)alpha754293 - Friday, May 27, 2016 - link
BTW, my local Microcenter in Michigan has it listed now for $309.99 for the 6700K. While you might not be local to the Microcenter in Michigan, point is - you might want to check. ;) Have fun.grimfees - Wednesday, June 15, 2016 - link
Am I the only one who seems to recall that the MSRPs for the 6600k and 6700k were like $329 and $229 around 9 months ago? That info seems to have disappeared and been replaced by "recommended price" or a figure around $20 higher in recent months. The whole artificially constrained supply and $100 higher effective retail price was some serious BS. Retail outlets should be prevented by law for selling these things for more than the initial MSRP to prevent this garbage in the future.